Those wolves were dropped off on a ranch by Meeteetse, WY. They now have several packs in the area. I believe there is a lawsuit against the G&F. Meeteetse is a small town and everyone knows this story. There is one cafe in town, stop in and visit. I believe the owners of that cafe also found the only remaining black footed ferrets left when they were thought to be extinct and that started the captive breeding population for re-introduction.

The comment was made that WY knew how to handle the wolves in the past. Yellowstone is in WY and if I remember right, they got rid of all the wolves for a reason.

Minnesota: there is a lot of deer in southern MN because there are no wolves down there to eat them. That is also why they have a lot of coyotes. If wolves were in Southern MN, the coyote population would plummet like it did in Yellowstone.

I feel the excess wolves above the 10 x 10 number should be relocated to Iowa.

The lawsuit started Feb. 4th. I think it was pretty much an opening hearing. Not much else has been said.

Kudu56: I will be passing through your fine state in a few days! I am on my way to add a large Russian Boar to my all time list! We are heading for Texas via Nebraska! Our travels will take us through Idaho, Wyoming and some other states!
Be on the look out for us! We will be the ones with the bumber sticker that reads:
"SAVE 100 ELK - KILL A WOLF"!
Yellowstone Park IS mostly in Wyoming but in fact was purposely designed (sized) to also take up parts of the states of Montana and Idaho. I forget the reason this was done as the feds take into consideration absolutely NOTHING from any of the 3 states that Yellowstone Park sits in! Typical!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

quote:

Originally posted by kudu56:
[QUOTE]have a bumper sticker that says: "I Kill for Sport and Pleasure" QUOTE]

Telling people you kill for pleasure says alot!

That bumper sticker really pisses off the anti-hunters. They can't help but be offended, and they always have to say something about it. It brings the anti-hunting raisin gobblers out of the woodwork every time. It even outed Kudu!!

Damn! That reply by me was a long time ago. I told you to slow down and read the posts! Put the everclear down and read!

quote:

Originally posted by kudu56:
Put the everclear down and read!

Wow! You learned another trolling method from the political forum.

Why do you kill big game?

quote:
Why do you kill big game?


1.To fill my freezer.

quote:

Originally posted by kudu56:
quote:
Why do you kill big game?


1.To fill my freezer.

Ah yes. You're not in it for the adventure, the thrill of the chase, the opportunity to roam the wild places, to marvel at the wild things, ....
You're in it to get food. I guess that's why you feel threatened by wolves.

Or are you luposlipaphobic?

quote:

Originally posted by kudu56:
Damn! That reply by me was a long time ago. I told you to slow down and read the posts!

You assume that I actually read all your posts?

[quote}
You assume that I actually read all your posts?

Of course!

I read all of yours!!!!!

6 years ago I was coming home from a scouting trip in Wyoming with my wife. Just south of the Greys River turnoff coming down from the summit heading south late at night I had 2 wolves run out in front of me. I was pulling a horse trailer with 3 horses in it & I couldnt stop. I hit one of them & he went under my truck. I could not believe how big they were. They had collars on them. I still have the dent in my bumper from the hit. I couldnt find the animal & I wasnt really excited about seeing him at 1:00 in the morning in the dark.

The next morning I called the Wyoming Fish & Game & told them about it & they said they had no control over them & to call the USF&W & he said it couldnt have been a wolf. They couldnt have gotten that far yet.

I called 3 different times & left a message each time & never got a return call.
I think they have begun to find out they opened a can of worms & do not want to talk about it or face it.
From everything I have read about them they can reproduce farely fast. What natural enemy do they have outside of humans wooooops I forgot we cannot shoot them.
I heard one last 2 years ago up in the Gros Ventre & I have to say it was a neat eeerie sound but if the son of a #@#*! was harrasing my livestock & killing them It would definately open season.
These ranchers have a hard enough of a time without these animals going uncontrolled.

It is easy to be critical of sombody several hundreds of miles. Walk in his shoes for a while & then see how it is.

Sorry so long I get carried away.

quote:

Originally posted by kudu56

That's a real nice avitar you have there! Fits you well.

I don;t know how you get troll out of that? It looks like a werewolf!

quote:

Originally posted by kudu56:
I don;t know how you get troll out of that? It looks like a werewolf!

OK then. You're not the brightest bulb in the box.

LOL!

This was in the paper today. It should make the fags of Iowa happy! The last two sentences sum it up. Feds rule! States have no rights.

Judge rejects Wyoming wolf lawsuit

By MEAD GRUVER
Associated Press Writer Monday, March 21, 2005




CHEYENNE, Wyo. (AP) -- A federal judge here has dismissed Wyoming's lawsuit against the federal government over its decision to reject the state's plan for managing the descendants of wolves reintroduced in Yellowstone National Park.

U.S. District Judge Alan Johnson said he disagreed with the state's claim that the federal government violated the Endangered Species Act in rejecting the plan. The act didn't come into play because the rejection didn't determine wolves' status under the act, Johnson said in a ruling dated Friday.

"The federal defendants were not compelled by statute or regulation to approve the Wyoming plan, nor did the `best science available' mandate attach to their decision making process," Johnson wrote.

The Interior Department has required Wyoming, Montana and Idaho to submit plans for managing wolves before it will remove them from Endangered Species Act protection. It accepted the plans submitted by Montana and Idaho, but rejected Wyoming's plan.

Wyoming had wanted wolves considered a potential nuisance, allowing them to be shot with little oversight as they spread outside the Yellowstone region.

Johnson said the Endangered Species Act's requirements for scientific review only would come into play with delisting, or when wolves come up for status review under the act in 2008 -- five years after they were downgraded from "endangered" to "threatened."

Wyoming Attorney General Pat Crank said on Monday that the state is reviewing its options, which include appeal, legislative action and filing a petition for delisting. He said he expected it would be a week or so before a final decision on the state's next step was made.

Crank said the state was disappointed with Johnson's ruling and dismissed the notion that federal officials had tried to work with the state to come up with a plan acceptable to both.

"Our fate is controlled by a federal agency that's just not responsive, or in this case, not responsive at all, to the concerns of the state," Crank said.

Kudu56: Thanks for the posting and your analysis! Well said and surmised!
We are in a tough situation and it just gripes my ass that the good for nothing, green, sons of bitches and daughters of whores at the rmef will do nothing to aid in this battle!
Screw them!
I do know one thing more and more people that I know and folks I don't know but talk to in my travels are simply dumbfounded by the stupidity the greens at the rmef are displaying in this regard!
How can they call themselves a pro-Elk, or a pro-Elk Hunting organization and stand by and watch the slaughter of our hard fought for Elk and game herds?
There is no rational answer to that question and I gave up asking the twirps there in Missoula for a sensical answer. Happy words and blather is all I got from them!
Money-gatherers have never been a trustworthy bunch in my lifes experiences!
Thanks for nothing rmef!
One of our local papers (Montana Standard) had an article on a local rancher who shot a Wolf that was trying to kill his calving cows last week. The rancher was afraid to have his name printed in the paper and requested anonymity! This was near Wisdom, Montana!!!
In this same article the newspaperman wrote of another incident in which a Wolf killed a horse near here recently! The article relayed the beloved horse weighed 1,200 pounds! The horse autopsy revealed that the breathing tube of the horse had been crushed by the attacking Wolf! Yes I said Wolf not Wolves! And that was what I recall the article relaying - a single animal was responsible for this horse killing. Not many other particulars accompanied that starting incidents recantation!
Anyway I have now heard first hand and in credible newspapers of Wolves killing Bighorn Sheep, Moose, Elk (of course!), Deer, domestic cattle (both young and adult!), a horse, sheep, llamas and domestic dogs!
I fear that a human may be next!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Hey guys sorry to hear the system is screwing you hunters south of the border on this issue. Here in Alberta we have had wolves as far back as I can remember we are however allowed to shoot them if I remember correctly last years hunting rules guide said residents could shoot wolves their or leased land whithout a licence this system seems to be working I have not seen any wolves while out hunting and if I did see one while hunting my only issue would be. Be sure of your target and what is beyond. AS an aside can anyone tell me what RMEF stands for? I'v heard REMF rear echelon mother fu**er.Anyway I hope your self appointed conservation officers dont get into any official trouble that would at least as big a shame as how your wolf population is being mismaneged.

RMEF Rocky Montain Elk Foundation

During the initial release of the reintroduced wolves the RMEF supported the reintroduction. With a statement as this, "we feel the wolf is a viable part of a sound wildlife management system" QUOTE!

Now after some pressure by outfitters and hunters the RMEF's statement is "we feel some management of the grey wolf is needed"

Weekly on the news, here in Wy, there has been group after group making public statements as to where have all the wild ungulates of the North West corner of Wyoming gone? HMMMM! First to blame is the drought, second is to many hunters, then the preditors. Lets see, other parts of the state, southern part comes to mind, have more hunting pressure, and the same drought. And a growing herd of elk. While the north west part of the state has less pressure and also the same drought. But one other factor, wolves and bears! I am sure BRENT will address this as rocket science.

Kudu56: I also get a kick out of the greens who will blame ANY and EVERY thing for the recent decline of Elk (and Moose and Bighorn Sheep) in certain areas except for the correct thing to blame - the WOLVES! The amazing overpopulation of WOLVES in certain areas is a clear and present danger to our game herds! Indeed in Montana where the Wolves are not yet so numerous as in other places the Elk are at record high populations! This growth is the trend that has been going on for decades! But when the Wolves were introduced the Elk are suffering mightily in certain areas where the Wolves are thickest!
Yes in spite of new houses, drought and Grizzly Bears the Elk in Montana have been thriving up until this attack by the greens (the Wolf reintroduction!) on our game herds and Hunting opportunities!!!
Our friends the green intellectual idiots try to blame such things as over grazing by cattle, new houses, drought, fires, Grizzly Bears, Cougars, Black Bears and on and on! Never a mention from these self described "experts" and "friends of experts" of the fact that even the head greens in the usfws service and several state agencies along with the overly green money changers at the rmef only wanted 325 Wolves total in the states of Idaho, Montana and Wyoming! They promised us that was their goal and game herds would not suffer under this promised goal! Well so much for federal promises (maybe the indigenous Indian folks were right about the feds!) and goals! Now all of a sudden we have between 850 and 1,000 of these voracious game eating predators (Wolves not the usfws people!)! In the areas the Wolves are thickest the game herds ARE suffering and in some cases being destroyed!
Please refer to my previous posts for details.
Never the less we have in our midst an organization that espouses being pro-Elk and pro-Elk Hunting (the rmef!) and yet they literally stand by and do NOTHING to hold the feds and the states accountable for this gross outrage! Meanwhile the Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd has been literally cut in half since the day the Wolves were re-introduced! Remember this herd of Elk numbered 19,000 animals in 1995 and last year it numbered 8,500 animals! Over this same time period the special tag Elk Hunting opportunities went from nearly 3,000 special permits a year down to 148 in 2,005!!!
Deny that, you green dick warts and rmef'ers!
Thanks for nothing rmef!!!!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Yea but Varmit Guy you are NO expert. Anyone who refers to a necropsy (on the horse) as an autopsy, and uses the term "breathing tube" for the trachea has no right in my opinion trying to pass himself on as some sort of "expert". You have no more business here than anyone. And FYI, the Jackson elk herd is STILL over objective, and calf ratios are around the 20 year average.

I love to hunt elk more than anyone I know, and will continue to back the RMEF for all the good work they do. If we had back all the BILLIONS of dollars WASTED by the federal government (OUR TAX MONEY) on coyote control in the west and had put that towards setting aside critical migration routes, winter ranges, and habitat improvement...I doubt anyone can argue that we would all be better off. Its all about the HABITAT you moron!!

MG

Actuall information from REAL biologists and not convoluted media jargon. Jackson has had a really open winter here...there are a LOT of elk wintering off the NER.

MG

JACKSON ELK COUNTED

3/18/2005

JACKSON – Recent winter counts and classification for Wyoming’s largest elk herd showed a slight decline from counts taken a year ago. This year’s number was 10,858 elk as opposed to 12,005 counted in 2004.

"These elk represent the elk actually counted on or near the feedgrounds and we estimate there are another 1000-2000 animals that don’t get counted," said Jackson wildlife biologist Doug Brimeyer. "We estimate the actual population of the Jackson herd is around 13,000 elk." With most elk in the area attending feedgrounds, managers can count a high proportion of the animals in the herd unit. According to the Game and Fish, the 13,000 estimate is still above the 11,000 target population for the herd.

"The slightly lower number is likely the result of some lower calf ratios observed in recent years," said Brimeyer. He said numbers of calves per 100 cows is one piece of information managers collect to measure the health of big game herds. Wildlife managers recorded 23 calves per 100 cows in 2002. The 20- year average calf ratio for the Jackson herd is 27 calves per 100 cows. This year managers found 25 calves per 100 cows, which is down slightly from last year’s number of 28.

"While this year’s calf ratio was not alarming, we did see fewer calves on winter ranges in the Buffalo Valley/Spread Creek area near Moran, which we will want to keep an eye on," Brimeyer said.

The annual count of elk on the national Elk Refuge was also conducted and showed a total of 4,969 on feed. This is the sixth consecutive year wildlife managers have met the refuge population objective agreed upon by the Game and Fish and National Elk Refuge, which is to have no more than 7,500 elk on feed. The Game and Fish estimates that elk that winter on and adjacent to the National Elk Refuge generally account for 50-60 percent of the entire Jackson elk herd. (Contact: Mark Gocke (307) 733-2321)

-WGFD-

You guys need to listen to madgoatfucker. Don't let him kid you on proper terminology either. He still believes good sex is a pain in his ass.

Oh my gosh it must be spring time...the skunks are out of hibernation.


MG

badgoat: Where did I ever state my preference to be called an EXPERT?
And your blatantly stupid remark regarding WHO has a right to be here needs no correction or rebuttal at all! How immature and petty of you?I will correct you anyway!
Thusly - who the fuck are you to try and tell me what status I have or have not achieved! Fuck you dadgoat, and the horse you rode in on!
And for your information my huge college two volume dictionary (*) defines, and I will quote exactly and fully here - Necropsy: the examination of a body after death: an autopsy.
Autopsy: #1: Inspection and dissection of a body after death, as for determination of the cause of death; a post mortem examination.
#2: personal observation. From the Greek word auotopsia (meaning) seeing with ones own eyes.
So your stupid, petty and erroneous attempt at correcting me and the newspaper account I cited falls flat - just like your brain waves!
Dittoes on your petty and improper attempt at besmirching me and the newspaper article writers use of breathing tube! The breathing tube of the huge horse was crushed! Are you denying that?
Your stupidity and pettiness knows no bounds apparently.
I personally observed the Jackson Hole wintering Elk herds just 19 days ago. And spent time there in Jackson as I often do in the winters! I spent three days observing wildlife in Jackson Hole last year also. Every person who depends on tourism and Hunters in Jackson Hole is on edge and worried that when the Wolves in that area get as populous as the Wolves in the Northern Yellowstone Elk herd then there will be great and adverse effects on the Jackson Elk herd! That, will, affect tourists and Hunters opportunities and will threaten many peoples livelihoods! Two bad things there - less Elk and fewer jobs!
What are you and your green buddies at the rmef gonna do about that?
scabbygoat, what are you saying, that all of a sudden (in the years since Wolves have been introduced - coincidentally?) the Norhtern Yellowstone Elk herds habitat has suddenly gone from what it was to a point that the herd has no where to live?
Thus the declining numbers of Elk in that herd from 19,000 to 8,500 in 9 years! And the resulting fewer special Elk Hunting permits has gone from nearly 3,000 every year back before 1995 to 148 in 2,005 is caused by some massive new housing development? Well since you are obviously not familiar with that herd and that area I will tell you there has been no massive loss of habitat and the Wolves in fact are decimating that herd! Even the Montana game department folks, when pressed, admit that and more often now openly admit that! Do you give any credence to those experts or are you in "greenie World of denial" like many at the rmef and usfws?
You just keep swallowing the line from the greenies at the rmef (or wherever you got your stupid notion from) that housing starts are what is killing off this herd and keep blindly supporting them til your Elk Hunting opportunities go up in Wolf farts!
Then maybe you can support the Rocky Mountain Wolf Foundation and then you can raise money to buy the Wolves some kind of animals to eat?
Lets see you are calling me a moron but you refuse to acknowledge that the Wolves are at least 3 times the population now more than even what the greens at the usfws and the rmef originally endorsed! And apparently you are denying that in areas where Wolves are most over-populated the game herds are suffering and in some cases being decimated and cut down to where they can no longer sustain themselves!
Hmm... me thinks that you in fact ladgoat are the moron!
Go back to your pen badgoat and stick your head back up your ass and pretend everything is just fine as long as everyone just gives their money to the nice folks at the rmef! Do you even have any idea how stupid and self defeating that is?
I feel sorry for you!
By the way for the last 2 years the tours I have been on at Jackson Hole National Elk Refuge have included boastings by the tour operators that the Elk are feeding on grass that has been recently discovered and planted throughout the Refuge that is able to grow and retain nutrients throughout the winter. Even under the snow. Indeed the thousands of Elk I observed there were not eating "pellets" (like they used to be continuously fed) but the Elk were simply pawing through the shallow snow and eating the grass! So I think the article you cited may be giving the wrong impression that those wintering Elk need to be fed morning, noon and night. They do not and were not in need of that on the occasions I was there. The Elk in and near the Jackson Hole Elk Refuge do not "need" to be fed on a 24/7 basis. I saw that with my own eyes over the last several years. I also tend to disagree with your contention that the loss of 1,200 Elk in that herd is not reason for concern! The mild winters for the last several years should show at least a "maintenance" of Elk numbers! A loss of that many Elk in that size herd is making my point you poor pathetetic excuse for a Hunter!
If there are to many Elk in Jackson Hole then maybe you could get your "green" dick wart buddies to trap them and transplant them to an area that HAS been adversely affected by Wolves... oh I mean by housing starts (LOL!). Or maybe they only want to spend money in ways they think are best! AGAIN LOL!
Thanks for nothing rmef!
hadgoat you are obviously suffering from a severe case of selective interpretation and stupid decision making! I hope for other Hunters sake, your myopic slant on things does not lead to more areas where Elk Hunting opportunities are lost. I would feel bad for those other folks!
I will be standing by, waiting for an apology from you for the errors you made in your previous posting regarding your incorrect interpretations of my (and my newspapers) use of "autopsy" and breathing tube! Or are you even man enough to apologize when you are wrong?
I bet you are not!
Thanks for nothing rmef!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
(*) The American College Dictionary (Two volume set) Spencer Press Incorporated - Chicago,Illinois

Rocky Mountain Wolf Foundation! I like that! They go hand and hand.

Varmit, you have to consider he comes from the capital of liberalism in Wyoming! Please forgive him, for knows not what he says! Pretty much the same as BRENT!

Wow Varmitguy I'm impressed...you went on a sleigh ride with the concessionaire at the NER, now you're a freaking expert on the Jackson elk herd as well. You must learn quickly, tell me, did you read all this on the broshure they gave you at the end with your hot cocoa?
The fact of the matter is that not ALL the elk winter on the refuge...and the fact that this year has been an "open" one suggests that more elk are wintering out in areas of the Gros Ventre, Cache Creek, Buffalo Valley, Spread Creek, etc. But I'm sure you already know that because you went on a SLEIGH RIDE with the rest of the freaking pilgrims. So essentially there are several thousand elk that are not accounted for because they winter off the feed grounds.
I am not a fan of the wolves either, but your uneducated jargon and BS that you twist for your own agenda and then feed everyone is a load of bullshit and you know it. Our elk herds are not decimated like you would like folks to believe. Maybe get some ACTUAL figures instead of pulling them out of your ass. Maybe your failure to locate elk during hunting season is more attributed to your lack of effort and hunting skill!!
Having observed elk on the refuge for years, one thing I can say. Pre wolf, the feed grounds were littered with sick, injured and old elk who stood in one position for many days awaiting the end from starvation and exposure. The coyotes would swarm around these elk like flys on shit for days, waiting for them to weaken to the point where the coyotes would take a chance and make a grab at them (maybe at their breathing tube you fucking moron). These elk festered with scabies, disease, and their joints swelled from brucellosis. The place looked like an elk feed lot. Once the wolves came, those sick, injured, diseased elk dissappeared. The elk that remain have a new glint in there eye, perk to their ear. They actually look wild for a change.
I think these wolves need to be managed now. I also like to hunt more than anyone I know, probably 10 times more than you. I believe in healthy ecosystems, and the part that large predators play. I like wilderness, open areas, and places where man has not yet had the chance to screw it all up. I'm sure you and Kudu are planning on building your house there!
It is unfortunate, that uneducated hill billy boy pieces of shit such as yourself even have a say in this matter. It is stupid people like yourselves who demand and back up shitty "we'll stick it to the man!" type ideas with our wolf management plan who are to blame for this whole mess. Yea, we sure showed them! Lossed our asses in court. If anything constructive came from this whole deal, it is that we need a new approach. We need to meet the criteria so we can get these darn things delisted. All your bullshit chest pounding and "S.S.S." does nothing more than encourage tighter restrictions and less of a possibility of getting wolves mounted on my mantle.
Also, for you to be so freaking blind to the fact that with or without wolves elk need habitat and right now more and more is being eaten up by developers disturbs me greatly. The mesa is being eaten alive by oil and gas development on critical elk and deer winter range, homes are popping up everywhere they shouldn't be, roads, fences, sprawl continue to put a choke hold on migration routes...it goes on and on. Shit, at one time the great majority of the elk that winter in Jackson would migrate to the north end of the Red Desert to spend the winter time but due to development that migration route has been lost forever. You are so consumed by your hate for something you know nothing about you miss the bigger picture.
The reason why you had a bad day is because of the wolf. You didn't get a tax refund because of the wolf. You have a stomach ache...those fucking wolves. Yea they need to be controlled, but with your attitude we're all screwed.

Now go ahead...go on and on with your big typed out bullshit. I'm sure you have a nice big response full of crap like always.

MG

MGD! OOPS I mean MG. Your are right about the habitat. The historic route was to the Red Desert and there is not much that can be done anymore, with the exception of the state or feds buying all the right of ways and re-establish the corridor. I doubt it will happen. The big push right now it close the feed grounds, and it might just happen to. (god forbid) I hate to agree with you but I do. Habitat is #1. But I still think the RMEF sucks shit!

There is a wolf problem, ask those that are in the field and spend time in elk country. There again, not a damn thing we can do about that either. When and if the state gets control, it will lead to higher tag fees and more expensive hunting to try and offset management of the wolf, much the same as the grizzly bear! If I want to come on here and bitch it is my choice. I do feel better when I am done. But the entire issue needs to be brought to everyones attention also. This is one way to do it, and if you have some that listen with an open mind and are objective, unlike BRENT the moron, we will become more educated and aware of what is going on which will then let us make a decsion who we support and promote. There again, who gives a red rats ass! Hunting is in a big change mode right now, and at my age I think we have seen the best hunting of our life time.

And an uneducated hillbilly boy! And build my house in a wilderness I told you before I live in town and prefer it, I spent 20 years of my life 30 miles from town on a dirt road. My My your vocabulary is so much better when you are sober!

Howdy fellers!
"I heard" that if you're having trouble with a pack of wolves, you should give them your first born. After that, the wolves will leave you alone.

This is an interesting letter that was in the Casper today. Read the signature and his past employer. It contradicts Brent, the self proclaimed biologist from Iowa!

Wolf tourism a fantasy





Editor:

Shelley Ridenour's fantasy piece, "Wolf expert sees need for better methods," cries out for a common-sense response.

Saying wolf effects on livestock are not completely known "because the best ways to measure those effects haven't been determined" is absurd. U.S. and Canadian hunters, ranchers and rural people have been living with wolves for 200 years. Wildlife managers and university professors have studied wolves for 100 years. The suggestion that there is some a+b=c equation for wolves either by area or sex or pack numbers or population densities is ridiculous. Can we predict what "a" or "a typical" domestic dog will do if it gets loose? No, and wolves are just as adaptable and unpredictable as any domestic dog. Who is silly enough to believe that wolves that haven't killed but a few calves or elk or dogs, when hungry or in snow or with young to feed, won't kill a whole lot of such critters at one time given the opportunity?

Who can say they won't kill kids at a winter bus stop or and old lady walking from a barn under any circumstance? The best anyone dares say is "they haven't." Wolves can seriously damage a rancher's herds and flocks. They can seriously depress big game populations. They kill pets and farm dogs and they are a real threat to rural residents.

Hidden agendas as shutting down public land grazing, eliminating hunting, vacating rural countryside, imposing animal rights and environmental radicalism are what are behind the wolf program.

The rest of this piece was just nonsense. Why would the state (or the feds for that matter) not recognize the increasingly prohibitive cost of "catching" or tranplanting or killing every wolf that does something bothersome? So what happens when wolf populations explode and harm is rampant and the federal government will once again (as in America 100 years ago) have to spend the equivalent of millions annually to kill a few of many harmful wolves?

Colorado "wildlife managers" say there are 100,000 too many elk in Colorado. Could Colorado use the economic benefits from selling 200,000 to 300,000 more elk tags to kill the 100,000 "too many" elk? What do the wolves eat after they eat the old and sick and the 100,000? The wolves kill what they can, they may eat all of it or some of it. When their numbers reach a maximum and the food is mostly gone or reduced, what do they eat then?

Wolf tourism is as likely as tourism for spotted owls. What is natural or appealing about wolves managed like free-ranging dogs?

JIM BEERS, Centerville, Va.

Retired wildlife biologist, special agent and refuge manager

U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service

nogonadgoat: No I did not take the sleigh ride this winter! I did though spend much time both north and south of the refuge observing Elk, Moose, Bighorn Sheep, Mule Deer and Coyotes. I did not see any Wolves this year but did see three Wolves way up north on the Gros Ventre River and spent some time even further north (still observing Elk mind you!) on the Blackrock Creek drainage last year! These are some of my favorite viewing areas and I visited them again earlier this month!
I truly relish pointing out the infinite stupidity and preumptiousness of twirps like you sadgoatsack!
Let me list your additional stupid statements and recommend you read the latest posting by Kudu56. You may just learn something if you do so - and its obvious to everyone YOU really need some learning!
Like I said in addition to pointing out your stupidities and over the top presumtiousness in my first paragraph I will now continue!
ladgoat I have never professed, stated, written, recommended to, asked or told anyone to shoot, shovel and shut up about killing a Wolf! Ever! Anywhere! Including on this forum!
I challenge you to show otherwise! And when you fail to do so I will expect your apology forthrightly! Or are you even man enough to acknowledge a mistake and apologize for making it?
I have Hunted Wolves on a couple of occassions but have done so legally and with the proper tags!
So you are wrong, way off base and obviously to emotional and immature to carry on a conversation with anyone - let alone an experienced Hunter like myself!
I never stated that "all the Elk winter on the refuge" where you got that tidbit is anyones guess! "Out chore ass" is how my friends from urban areas would describe where you got that one!
madgoat: Your inference seems to be in persistently trying to denounce my "expert status" (again where you came up with the bizarre bit of slander is beyond me!) and that puzzles me! What if I were an expert (an expert in what ever category you have imagined my being in!)? What if I was not an expert - then what contention of mine have you succesfully argued against???
None is the answer!
Again I ask you and again I am sure you will avoid the question!
What HAS killed off the Norhtern Yellowstone Elk Herd from 19,000 Elk (in 1995 the year the Wolves were brought into that area!!) down to 8,500 Elk in 2,004? You avoid this question like a child avoiding spinach! And in fact I guess your avoidance of this issue in fact is childlike!
Let me give you some hints to the correct answer baggoat! Wolves were planted in that area in 1995 and have exploded in numbers to a point where they are three times what your green buddies in the government and at the rmef wanted! This triple sized the wanted and promised population is hungry and they are Wolves and they often eat game animals and no housing developments have overwhelmed that area so take a wild guess there goofygoat - what do you think has decimated that Elk herd?
Cowards avoid difficult realities cadgoat! Are you in that group?
I never said your Elk herd was decimated tadpolegoat! Where in your voluminous ass did you pull that from! I did say that a reduction in that herds size of 1,200 animals like the article you cited SAYS - then that should be of concern! 1,200 fewer Elk - Wolves in the area dduuuhhhhh....
Get the wax out of your ears stoogegoat and pay attention now! I am saying your Elk herd WILL eventually be decimated by the Wolves unless the green folks you worship and bow down to in the government uphold their promise and get the Wolf numbers down to where they promised (325 Wolves)! And that promised Wolf population number is way fewer than the 850 to 1,000 Wolves that are estimated (again by your green rumpelf government buddies!) to now be at!
I do not cite numbers and facts that I have found in my ass damgoat - I leave that to you as you seem to have EXPERTISE in that area!
Again with another statement and ass investigating stupidity you have made yourself the fool in this regard - the 6x6 mature Bull Elk that I harvested the second day of Montanas 2004 Rifle season is now being pedestal mounted at Montana Antler Designs and Custom Taxidermy - 3 N. Division - Whitehall, Montana 1-406-287-2219! You are welcome to drop in or call to arrange to view my trophy!
Your estimation of the problem of sick, injured and diseased Elk on wintering grounds is greatly exaggerated! For what reason one can only guess. I have been observing wintering Elk herds for a long time and it is somewhat rare to see a sick, injured or disease ridden Elk on wintering grounds! Predators take care of them year round! Winter is not the only time the Elk and all other Big Game become injured or ill - you fucking moron! Yeah there are some sick, injured and diseased Elk around at all times of the year. But not just in the winter! And your butt-buddies the Wolves have nothing to do with the gleam in any Elks eyes! I got a kick out of that one! Elk are predated upon by a host of creatures including Coyotes, Black Bear, Cougar and Grizzlies! But the difference is the Elk are much more susceptible (and for all of their lives not just when they are calves!) to Wolf predation. And refer back to this if you can goatwad - the numbers of Elk did not begin declining in many areas until the Wolves became over-populated! Deny that if you wish but such denial is simply meritless and... well... stupid!
I have personally seen Wolves chasing perfectly healthy game animals! Your furry buddies are not as pure as you want everyone to believe! How about the incident observed here in SW Montana by two game warden biologists from a helicopter where your saintly buddies (the Wolves) killed off a whole herd of Bighorn Sheep in one spot and then wandered off - not eating any of their fresh kills! Your special buddies the Wolves last year killed (within 5 miles of my home) 27 domestic sheep in one night and never made a meal of any of them! Then when the rancher herded what was left of his flock into a corral right by his house the Wolves returned the next night jumped his fence and killed 8 more! Again leaving without eating any of the sheep! Yeah real neccessary those binges!
The stupidity and audacity of your imbecilic self trying to blame me for the overpopulation and introduction of Wolves is on its face so incomparably stupid that it needs no refutation! Its just so bizarre that its stands by itself as proof of your ignorance!
Where do you come up with the arrogant stupidity of that degree?
It is astounding!
I WILL go "on and on" here gonadlikegoat in this direction. Your mental state is in question! You think I blame my tax refund on Wolves? You think I am not an avid, devoted and lifelong Hunter? You think my calling attention to the Wolf problem is going to somehow make it worse or caused it in the first place? Well you take the cake there deep thinker! You may do a lot of thinking but it is with such a disturbed an immature mind that you come up with lies and poor attempts at slander - yet YOU refuse to answer even the simplest of questions! LOL!
You sir are the fucking moron!
And you seem content to prove that over and over again!
For your information the Elk herds have been growing over the last 6+ decades! Do to sound state invoked game mangaement practices and the states acquisition of critical habitat! Elk are at record high numbers in many areas of the west - again I will state this slowly and clearly for even the stupidest persons (like sadgoat!) to try and analze - except where the recently introduced Wolves have decimated the herds! This includes Yellowstone Park proper by the way. When I toured there early last fall even the green leaning rangers were acknowledging the extreme lack of Elk there! Elk have plenty of habitat and plenty of water and plenty of feed and plenty of places to winter - THAT you pathetic simpleton is why they are at record numbers in many places!
Its the Wolves that are over-predating on certain herds and decimating them! No influence by ANY development has affected the Elk (and Moose and Bighorns) as much as the Wolves have in those certain areas! I predict that those certain areas where Wolves are "over-killing" our hard fought for game herds will absolutely increase in number. Especially if ANYONE is stupid enough to follow your lead!
ladgoat you are a wantonly pathetic and laughable case!
By the way - just as an aside - how do YOU judge someones "desire" to Hunt game when you have not met or Hunted with that person? Again I am laughing at you!
Pointing out your ignorance and presumptiveness is easy sport for me and somewhat entertaining but it does no good for the game herds of the Rocky Mountains who, as we speak (converse via cyberspace) are being chased, stressed and killed by your friends the Wolves! Yeah stress in winter kills game in many ways - not just by fang and claw! Or maybe you don't think the Wolves are even stressing our long fought for game herds? Could be you believe the stress doesn't harm our game herds? You have come up with so many other stupid contentions maybe you are not willing to accept that reality?
In a way I feel sorry for you! Your blame is misdirected oh goatroper! I am not at fault in the tragic loss of so many of our fine game animals! Certainly a senseless loss of game just to become wayne "the brain" carletons vision of happy times in the mountains. What an idiot! Or maybe you are not aware of his feelings regarding our new found over abundant predators? I strongly suggest you inquire of him and his brethren at the rmef! Those fine game animals have become Wolf farts and liveliehoods and Hunting opportunities and quality recreation of all types are now suffering. As an example I will cite again the loss of 2,850 special Elk permits that used to be given out every year in Montana for Hunting in the area that is frequented by the Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd! In 2,005 they intend to give out 148 permits in those Hunting areas where they used to give out as many as 3,000! I keep pointing out this FACT to you and you keep avoiding it but insisting on drawing out more drivel from your anal cavity!
Why do you keep ignoring these FACTUAL numbers regarding the Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd Hunting opportunities?
Thanks for nothing rmef!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
PS: Again daddysliitlegoat I advise you to review Kudu56's latest posting, analyze it (if you can?) and give a prompt to the green dick warts over at the rmef that maybe if they consider themselves pro-Elk and pro-Elk Hunting they better get off their green asses and swing some influence in the right direction! Personally I think they are so green anymore they are unwilling to help!

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...it just goes on like this. Varmitslob, go back to shooting baby chickens and biting the heads of prarie dogs!
You do nothing good or constructive for wildlife, nothing for the good of our game herds in the Rocky's, but continue to spew wolf BS to every Johnny wanna be you pass. Why not read a book on wolf biology...they are acutally quite self regulating, but you wouldn't know because you probably can't read! Heck, I could write an article in the Gazette (I'll draw pictures for your dumb ass) about how wolves are the reason why we have a hole in the ozone layer, and why folks in Ohio are losing jobs and you would believe that garbage! Get a grip man! Get that banjo off your knee and think rationally (although you have proved to everyone on this forum time after time that isn't possible). You're not the answer to this, people like you are the problem! Everyone needs to come to a general consensus on this issue so we can get the appropriate legislation passed, management plans in place and get these things de listed so I can hunt one this fall. You'll just drag this thing on for years because you so closed minded!

You yourself said "Could be you believe the stress doesn't harm our game herds?" What about oil and gas development, traffic, 4-wheelers, subdivisions, barking dogs, antler hunters, varmit hunters, snowmachines, photographers, etc, etc...freaking winter habitat destruction!!? We have places in Wyoming where along a small stretch of highway (~8 miles) 400-700 deer are hit and killed by dipshits in their SUV's each winter but none of that hits the news because some damn outfitter is pissed that all his hunters didn't kill a 350 class bull elk. These are the REAL problems! How can you sit there and pretend like nothing is happening with all this?

If you think that elk in the west have plenty of water, feed, and open places to call home...you're even stupider than I could even imagined!

You sit there and beat your chest about being a concerned sportsman, but don't give a shit if all the habitat in the world goes up in asphalt!! Get a clue.


MG

Just out of curiosity I did a little search on this guy. He is the real deal!!! It is to damn bad that the USF&W doesn't have a few more like him. Old school I guess. I actually tracked him down and talked to him on the phone. Quite an outdoorsman and true hunter. Do a search on the net and you will see.

Jim Beers
Jim Beers, 60, a Virginia Sportsman, is the man that blew the whistle on USFWS headquarters' Pittman-Robertson Program financial mismanagement in 1998-99. He is also a former police officer who spent 30 years working for the US Fish and Wildlife Service. Beers is federal programs coordinator for the National Trappers Association.

Jim retired from the US Fish and Wildlife Service after 30 years. He served as a wildlife biologist, wetlands biologist, special agent, and refuge manager. After working for the Utah Fish & Game and spending four years as a Reserve Officer in the US Navy, he joined the US Fish & Wildlife Service and was stationed in Devils Lake, North Dakota; Minneapolis, Minnesota; Grand Island, Nebraska; New York City; and Washington, DC.


While in Washington Jim was a Congressional Fellow, the Chief of Operations for the National Wildlife Refuge System, the Program Coordinator for the Animal Damage Control Program, and for his final seven years he was the wildlife biologist in the Central Office who served as Project Officer on nearly all national wildlife projects funded with Pittman-Robertson money.


Appointees of the Clinton Administration cleansed the US Fish and Wildlife Service of many wildlife management biologists like Jim to replace them with new age employees who supported eliminating the management of plants and animals for sustainable uses as spelled out in laws. Jim resisted and eventually testified before Congress about how the Service was misusing millions of dollars intended for state wildlife management programs to do things prohibited by Congress. This was being done in secret collusion with animal rights and environmental organizations. After spending ten months at home with full pay and no work assignment, Jim Beers accepted a cash settlement and retired in 1999. He holds a Bachelors in Wildlife Resources from Utah State University and a Masters in Public Administration from the University of Northern Colorado.


Articles

WoW! What a conversation! I know I am jumping in the middle but I study large carnivores at the University of Idaho. (I am moving towards research involving introgression of whitetail DNA into mule deer populations through whitetail-mule deer hybridization, but thats another day and another dime later...)I know what you're thinking....another liberal 'greenie' as I have seen reference to. Well, no, I am actually quite conservative, I host a local radio show and represent conservative ideals (try doing that on college campus!); I get just as fustrated when liberals cram bullshit down our throats as the next guy; I am a life long hunter (although I'm only 36) and consider myself to be as concerned about elk and deer populations as anyone.
I will in the interest of fair disclosure reveal that I am biased with respect to cattle grazing- quite honestly I don't give a damn if the wolves eat all of their sheep or cattle. Let the price of beef go up or get out of the business.I firmly beleve (as most Republicans do) that capitalism and free market economies will address the problem of cattle being predated upon. It used to be hunters and ranchers had a political alliance of sorts-20 years ago, an average Joe could ask for permission to hunt on a ranchers land and was well recieved, now that just does not happen nearly as often. It seems the political alliance is over. Sorry, but I want public land to be free of cattle and managed for healthy, huntable wildlife populations- not cattle or sheep.
With respect to game populations, evidence does seem to show that increasing populations of large and medium sized carnivores may be having an impact on elk poulations. In some cases a rather severe one. This is not unexpected in the short term, but may not be the case in the long term- dozens of generations of elk have been living free of selecion pressures from wolves- kind of like if a group of 100 youngsters grew up in a Buddhist temple and were then thrust into the streets of New York at the age of 18. There is a good chance that a bunch of them are going to die! Eventually, the strong of the group will survive and reproduce (Buddhists reproduce-I think? ...anyway) My point is that although no one really has the answers, before we just become contrarian to the ideas of liberal greenies, take the time to acknowledge that game populations may in the long run benefit by a healthier ecosystem. Is wolf reintroduction necessarily the right way to get a "healthy ecosystem?" maybe, maybe not. Evidence does show that wolves may have merely displaced coyotes from their home ranges. Wolves do eat more large mammals than coyotes, that is certain. But shouldn't we at least give it a fair shake? Elk managed to cross over the landbridge along with the wolves (and Moose, Wolverines and Caribou for that matter) from Siberia during the late Pleistocene and managed to survive as a species, I think we should have a little faith and not assume that elk are as weak and dependent upon our protection or interference as we might think. Just my opinion, I am not trying to piss anyone off, I am not into the "heated" exchanges, but I would like to hear anyones thoughts.....

IdahoVandal

Go Vandals!!

Idaho Vandal you talk about a balanced ecosystem with wolves in it but it can not be truly balanced unless man is hunting the wolves think about it.

I must have failed to mention... I complete agree with hunting surplus wolves. You are absolutely correct. I also believe we have a surplus of wolves.....

Hopefully, we'll be able to soon...

IV

quote:

Originally posted by IdahoVandal:
I must have failed to mention... I complete agree with hunting surplus wolves. You are absolutely correct. I also believe we have a surplus of wolves.....

Hopefully, we'll be able to soon...

IV

IV,
In case you're not just a Kudu invention to keep the topic going;
Welcome to the hole of wolf misinformation. Be prepared to be frustrated by ridiculous Kudisms repeated ad nauseam, derision, name-calling, and profanity. Your level of education means nothing here. This is only a contest of who can be the nastiest. Good luck!