Boreal, my man, where ya been? I figured you musta got et while making a run on your snowmachine to Embarrass for some of those extra cold cubes to chill your scotch. Good to see you are above ground yet. Sorry about this pathetic pile of driveling wolf-fraidy-cats. The little city children have permeated this thread with their usual line of ignorant whining.

I'm real sorry to hear about your friend Kenny. Sounds like he needed to move out to WY when it was safe, oh well.

And yes, I confess, I was a rich spoiled kid with my own Daisy bb gun - not the Red Rider of course - we weren't THAT rich. I had the break-action job, a hand-me down from my dad. It threw a mean right curve (very conservative rifle). But I could compensate for it well.

It saved my life many times when I was out and about. I never had to gun down a charging wolf with it of course, but several times, I did have to use it to knee-cap a school chum when the pack charged while we hiked over the drifts to school. Of course, wolves especially like whiney lightweights and knee-capping them made them whine like the cry babies they were. Worked every time.

Now don't be so quiet out there and don't let me hear about you doing soy-burger lunch with your greenie friends at the Chocolate Moose in Ely either. Otherwise, I'm gonna have to come up there and kneecap ya with my Daisy.

Brent

Brent, no one is affraid of wolves, it is the damage that they are doing to the wildlife of Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho. And the fact that a "so called hunter" like you could give a rats ass if there were 50 elk in Wy and 1000 wolves.

Come on guys,Truce? You have wolves now and you will never get rid of them. Short of poison, you could hunt them until you are blue in the face and not make a dent.

By the way, we have lots more here in B.C. and we would be happy to sell you some more.

quote:

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Originally posted by Brent:
Sorry about this pathetic pile of driveling wolf-fraidy-cats. The little city children have permeated this thread with their usual line of ignorant whining.

---

'Tis a true quagmire of misinformation, for sure.

quote:

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I'm real sorry to hear about your friend Kenny. Sounds like he needed to move out to WY when it was safe, oh well.

---

The more I think of it, I seem to remember that Kenny really did get killed by wolves on the South Park show!

quote:

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but several times, I did have to use it to knee-cap a school chum when the pack charged while we hiked over the drifts to school.

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GOOD THINKIN'

We already got 80+ inches of snow this year! As you know, we get our big snows in March. The deer are doomed. The snow is already up to my neck (I'm 6' 3" tall) in the back yard. Too bad too, because the herd was really looking good last year with lots of excellent bucks. What really pisses me off is that the RMEF will not take a stand against Mother Nature. How can they be for nature and elk at the same time? Thanks for nuthin', RMEF.

quote:

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Originally posted by boreal:

quote:

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Originally posted by Brent:
Godsdog,
I spent 15 yrs living with wolves as a little kid running in the timber alone with a bb gun for protection.

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Hi Brent,

WoW!! You had a BB gun for protection?
You lucky dog!

Your family musta been rich. All the kids in my neighborhood only had pointy sticks for protection. On our way home from school, when the wolves were after us, all the kids would form a circle and point our pointy sticks out from the circle. Those silly wolves could not get in back of us to attack. A lot of kids got taken down, though they were mostly the weak and sick kids. My neighbors, the Wainwrights (I liked them), were completely wiped out. The whole family got eaten! But dad told me that they were weak and stupid people, and that was nature's way. My friend Monty says that a wolf can eat 1.4 people biomasses each day. That adds up to about 50 billion people every year!
Even my best friend got eaten one day. He had polio as a baby and could not keep up to the rest of us kids.
Yup, they ate my best friend.
I remember thinking:
OH MY GOD! THEY KILLED KENNY!
THOSE BASTARDS!

---

"boreal" you should submit this to the folks that write South Park it would be dam funny and fit in well with there theme. I haven't had such a good laugh in years. I am going to show it to all of my friends here in Kansas.

What really pisses me off is that the RMEF will not take a stand against Mother Nature. How can they be for nature and elk at the same time? Thanks for nuthin', RMEF.

Now that is funny.

Do I think the Game and Fish in Wyoming sucks, yes! Do I think the wolves being re-introduced into the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem sucks, yes!

Wyoming Game and Fish needs to grow some balls and tell the FFWS that they can either eliminate all the wolves outside the two parks, or the state will! No exceptions!

Let me re-itterate why I don't like the Game and Fish in Wyoming, Alaska, or Montana for that matter.

MISMANAGEMENT! They would rather take a fellow from Detroit (not hating on the Motor City)'s hard earned out of state dollars than some 65 year old retiree from Casper.

Wildlife isn't managed in Wyoming for the locals it's managed for the non-residents, and the outfitters.

In Alaska the damn non-hunting AFWG department is worse, making rules hard to understand and impossible to interpret.

Montana's game department is just afraid of the Feds as the other two.

The Texans would never put up with that kind of goverment interferance in there state. Why should we?

The feds don't care what we think any more than they care about what the WG&F think. The state is scheduled to go to court next week over the management plan. If they win all it will do is let the state manage the run away wolf population. I highly doubt there will be a season or any hunting. I was talking about this with a local game warden yesterday and he thinks we will be able to hunt grizzlys before you can hunt a wolf. Or on other words probably neither.

They are here to stay and we are a long way from them slowing growth and expansion. They will when prey species hit bottom. I don't think wolves are going to wipe out our elk, the depredation of the elk and the closing of the refuges just mean that opportunities won't exist as they have in the past. It is already evident in the moose herds, but Brent and RMiller think it is the drought and aliens that have taken all the moose. And I am glad that both of them have finally seen the RMEF as it really is. "NUTIN"

Now now, if it wasn`t for the RMEF we in Ontario wouldn`t have any elk. Because of them we got a bunch and the herd is growing every year(even with all our dang wolves). I still feel that maybe what you need to do is start relocating some of the smart Canadian elk that know how to live with wolves and just cull all those stupid half tame critters that you mistaken for full blood elk! Hell if your moose can`t deal with an overgrown dog how the hell do they survive in griz country? Never forget that 1.4 elk of biomass was also made up of animals that the yotes would have been eating too. Because there is one guarnatee, if you got wolves you won`t have many coyotes, wolves definatly kill them just for the fun of it!

Kokdyer, I think you left us in the dark on your post...what exactly are you talking about?? That since the feds gave us no choice in taking on this wolf problem, we are just a bunch of pussies for accepting it...unlike the rednecked Texans??
Wyoming is currently involved in a lawsuit to pass our wolf management plan...we didn't fold to the USFWS's requests like Idaho and Montana.
As far as mismanagement with our wildlife...you are just as qualified to say that Montana and Wyoming mismanage their wildlife as you are to fly the space shuttle. I'll take hunting in Wyoming over anyplace!!


MG

Turman, I am sure our elk are learning, but how far will the population dip before they level off or return to higher numbers, maybe not in my lifetime, maybe in my kids.

Our lawsuit is scheduled for Feb. 4th, and I stand behind the state, SFW, and the Wyoming Stock Growers, who filed the suits.

I am surprised that some camper's sick, Parvo infected dog has not yet infected the wolf population and thinned them out.
Are wolves immune to this disease?

From what I have read, parvo is deadly to wolves. But very few domestic dogs have parvo. It would be just deserve, if a houndsman had a hound with parvo and it got killed by wolves like is happening all around the area. AS to date over 50 dogs have been killed in Wyoming, pets, livestock dogs, and hunting dogs.

Mange works better. Around here the coyotes got real bad then an outbreak of mange and 2 years later almost no coyotes to speak of.

Madgoat,

I am a Wyoming native and hunt at home every year. And yes Wyoming is a fantastic place to hunt. The best hunting state in the lower 48!

If the state game and fish was doing their job, and not catering to the outfitters and the non residents they would have sued the feds 10 years ago. Why has this taken 10 years?

I know Wyoming is the only one that didn't roll over and accept whatever the feds wanted to do. But they did it 10 years too late.

All 3 states early 1990s Govenors did a crappy job on that one.

Same thing in Alaska with the damn Gates of the Artic National Park and Tony Knowles.

Even you can see that.

He's modest and won't say himself, but just so y'all know, ole Brent knows a thing or two about a thing or two--he does this stuff professionally, as in, he's a scientist and professor of ecology. Some of you squawking chicken littles might want to consider that when challenging him on some points of science and fact...

BTW, he's also a fairly accomplished hunter. ;c)

Kamo Gari

Kokdyer, you still don't make sense...for one how does WY cater to nonresidents and outfitters...and what (if anything) does this have to do with no suing the feds ten years ago?? Maybe you've been in Spain too long to know what is going on here...

The whole wolf issue has nothing to do with the state's wildlife agency...this is purely a political deal. Wildlife management has nothing to do with this wolf issue, and in the end it will be someone wearing a black robe using a gavel who decides what is going to happen, not the folks who deal with this on a daily basis.

MG

An interesting fact I found in following one of the above listed sites.
The yearly cost for maintaining wolves in Minn. is $460,783. I wonder what it will be in the Western states?

Tj, Last year the WG&F spent over $1,000,000 manageing grizzly bears. The feds kicked in $330,000. I would expect the wolf management to cost as much if not more since they are spreading over most of the state.

Kamo Gari, as for Brent being a professor, that is quite obvious by his rhetoric. As for the rest about this Walt Disney hero, I won't comment, so as not to stoop to his level!

Coincidentally, there is a very interesting article in today's (Jan. 30th) newspaper, regarding this very subject, and the various projected management plans of Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming.

www.idahostatesman.com and look for the article "Idaho Lawmakers Get Advice On How To Manage Wolves."

FWIW.

L.W.

Kamo:
Yea, I'm really impressed. He is a "gen-U-ine." Professor of ECOLOGY. So what. I'm a Professor of BullShit. Does that make me any better at throwing it than him? Nope.
Does that make him the expert on wolves?
I bet, I've killed more wolves than he has ever seen.
Let me be the first of the "squawking chicken littles," to tell you, I could care less. If he makes a statement I disagree with, I will "challenge" him.
Are you one of his students?

TJ: Who are you talking about?

My post was in reference to the one above by kamo. He was telling us what a modest Scholar Ole Brent was.

No Madgoat, in all honesty I haven't lived in Wyoming in 10 years. I was in Kosovo, Afganistan, and Iraq, keeping the other kinds of wolves at bay.

Maybe I don't know what's going on. But I am asking you know why has this taken so long?

Why are we 10 years later dealing with this? I know there is no such thing as an easy fix, but 10 years come on.

Kokdyer, the wolf issue is pretty much out of the G&F hands. The G&F has to go groveling to the USF&W to get permission to do anything with the wolves.

TJ, my sentiments exactly,concering Brentski, I like the way you think! Are you sure you are not from Wyoming?

quote:

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I'm real sorry to hear about your friend Kenny. Sounds like he needed to move out to WY when it was safe, oh well.
Brent

---

Brent,
Its obvious that some of the "weak and stupid" people actually did move out there.

quote:quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm real sorry to hear about your friend Kenny. Sounds like he needed to move out to WY when it was safe, oh well.
Brent
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I thank the good lord that kenny's, closed minded, anti hunting, and pro-wolf friends haven't moved here yet! Heaven forbid! Especially the ones that dipped thier fingers deep, and I really don't want to know where they dipped them!

quote:
Brent,
Its obvious that some of the "weak and stupid" people actually did move out there.

How do you figure? You and Brent don't live here, But Einstein the ecologist has a grad student on the Wg&f payroll and that makes him an expert!

Wolf biologists look ahead
Associated Press

BILLINGS - As he read through the e-mails at his office, one from a wolf activist caught Ed Bangs' attention. It arrived shortly after Bangs made the difficult decision that wolves preying on livestock had to be killed.

"May your putrid corpse rot in hell," the e-mail said.

He shrugged it off. It wasn't the first message of its kind; it wouldn't be the last. The business of wolf management requires a thick skin, said Bangs, the federal government's wolf recovery coordinator for the region. "You can't take it personal, or you'd be a raving lunatic."



Bangs, along with Joe Fontaine and Carter Niemeyer, have long been the public faces for what has arguably been one of the most contentious conservation efforts of the last century - returning the gray wolf to the wild in the Northern Rockies.

A separate effort to reintroduce the Mexican gray wolf in Arizona and New Mexico is still short of its goals. But in central Idaho, northwestern Montana, and the Yellowstone National Park area, wolf recovery has been a success.

Wildlife officials estimate that there are 825 or more wolves in Idaho, Montana and Wyoming. Gray wolves in the region reached the recovery goal - 30 or more breeding pairs distributed among the three states for three consecutive years - in 2002.

The federal government now is close to handing off management of the animals in the region to state governments, and Bangs, Fontaine and Niemeyer - for the first time in nearly two decades - are looking at life beyond the daily stress of holding controversial jobs.

They have been the federal government's lightning rods for criticism from people on both sides of the issue, in the form of hateful e-mails, heated public meetings that sometimes turned into angry confrontations, even occasional death threats.

"It takes a toll on you, mentally at least," said Fontaine, who has worked with Bangs as an assistant wolf recovery coordinator for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in Helena.

Fontaine, a wildlife biologist who has already started hunting for his next job, will leave with mixed emotions. The job has been a tough, sometimes emotional one, he said, in which wolf managers were caught in the position of trying to restore an animal that some - particularly ranchers - viewed as a vicious predator and threat to their livelihoods.

He said he still remembers one contentious meeting several years ago in Montana, following the deaths of 28 sheep to wolves, and being struck by how the people had been affected by wolves.

"It's difficult to see people impacted, what they're going through," Fontaine said. "That was a real low."

But seeing wolves killed - either illegally or at the hand of government agents - was, at times, also difficult.

"It kind of hurt when you put a radio collar on one and had to (kill) it. It wasn't sentimental, but more like, 'Darn. We lost one,' because they were important to recovery," he said.

"You feel you let everybody down; it's painful to do," said Niemeyer, who for a decade was often the one who literally pulled the trigger when an order came down to kill a problem wolf. "The ranchers are counting on you to protect their livestock, and you failed. And the wolf advocates are counting on you to protect the wolves, and you couldn't. Everybody's pointing fingers, and those are the kinds of situations that wear you down."

"A lot of people say, 'How does it feel to be a wolf killer?' " said Niemeyer, now the federal wolf recovery coordinator in Idaho. "I've spent a lot of time exonerating wolves from blame. ... But when wolves begin attacking livestock, I can quickly understand the need to get rid of them."

The way Bangs sees it, wolf recovery from a biological standpoint has been the easy part. Far more difficult are the political and social aspects, and the pressure has at times been intense, he said.

"My job is to be in the middle of the road - to get wolves restored, but in a way that minimizes the impact on people," he said. "You know the old saying, 'If you're in the middle of the road, you get hit from both sides?' "

Even today, a decade after reintroduction in and around Yellowstone National Park, and nearly 20 years since wolves from Canada began migrating naturally into northwest Montana, emotions still run high. But, Bangs said, opinions of the wolf managers has changed some.

"In the early days of reintroduction, some livestock groups just hated my guts, and wolf lovers were carrying me on a pedestal," Bangs said. "But now that we lethally remove wolves, ranchers say, 'He's not so bad,' and the wolf lovers who said, 'Eddie! Eddie!' now say, 'You murdering bastard.' But we kept our word."

Conservationists and livestock officials give the federal wolf managers mixed marks.

"I certainly don't feel they catered to us. But I don't know that the other side felt catered to, either," said David Gaillard, conservation director for the group Predator Conservation Alliance. "They walked the line pretty good."

Jay Bodner, natural resource coordinator for the Montana Stockgrowers Association, said there have been cases where federal officials could have acted more quickly to deal with problem wolves. He believes the state, when it takes over management, will be more responsive.

Officials in Montana and Idaho could take over management responsibilities from the FWS for wolves in the states soon, and they're expected to do so.

Litigation has stalled the final step in the recovery project for the Northern Rockies - having the wolves taken off the list of animals protected by the Endangered Species Act. But the agency is willing to let the two states with approved plans assume management until delisting occurs. Wyoming's plan for managing the wolves has not been approved.

"It's a good feeling to know you worked yourself out of a job," Fontaine said.

Niemeyer plans to work closely with Idaho state officials and decide later this year if he wants to retire.

"By the end of summer, I will look at whether I can drink margaritas on a beach somewhere," he said.

Bangs said he plans to stay around long enough to deal with litigation but doubts he will be in the same role a year from now. His one regret so far, he said, is having not seen the wolves through to final removal from the Endangered Species List yet.

"That's my only great disappointment," he said, "because we won."



Copyright © 2005 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed

quote:

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Originally posted by MrHawg:
TJ: Who are you talking about?

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KENNY!?!?!?!?!!??
YOU'RE ALIVE!?!?!?!!??

brent: You poor, pathetic, immature fool! You refuse to answer my simple questions and some how you try and bemoan blame on me!
You chickenshit piece of lawn fudge!
I knew and predicted you would chickenshit out and now you have proved it!
I just returned from a wonderful midwinters trip through the Rocky Mountains from here in Montana to Arizona (via Idaho, Utah, Nevada). And the real Hunters and sportsmen I spoke with on that journey are aware and concerned about the Hunting opportunities that have been lost and are at risk of being lost in the future due to Wolf predation!
You just keep your head tightly stuck and enclosed up your ass and keep denying there is no problem! Real smart there Wolf buddy.
I have put my money on the line for the last several decades you dip shit! I have done this countless times in the form of expensive Hunting licenses and many and varied non-resident Hunting licenses! I do not want to see the good that those monies created during that lengthy time go to waste as Wolf food! You and your green graduate student buddy keep blaming anyone and everyone (except for your cuddly friends the Wolves) and see what transpires over the next decade! Or the next twenty years or even the next 50 years. If the Wolves you so desperately wish to protect (at any cost and while ignoring any bit of reality) are not brought to balance then you simply won't be able to Hunt Elk in the future! If the mindset you represent is allowed to fester then real Hunters will no longer be allowed the chance to Hunt Elk, Bighorns, Moose or what ever else the Wolves are allowed to decimate!
Yeah I guess "I" will have to go study more and try to figure out the "real" reason the Northern Yellowstone Elk herd decided to plummet from 19,000 animals in 1995 to 8,000 Elk last year! And remember "oh sage of the west" that there used to be 2,400 Elk permits that Montana issued to Hunters in that area and this coming fall only 100 permits will be issued! Hmm... 1995 was the year of the Wolf plants and the Wolves have exploded to between 825 and 1,000 of them today! Hmm... the Wolves are especially over populated in the area of the Northern Yellowstone Elk herd! Hmmm.. I tend to blame to Wolves for that tragic loss! No other explanation is even debated among the game biologists, game wardens, outfitters, guides, Hunters, ranchers and interested people that I know! Yeah maybe your lone buddy there in Wyoming knows more than EVERYONE ELSE!
I don't think so!
The second paragraph of your posting responding to me is so illiterate and imibcilicly written I am unable to understand or respond to it! Try proof reading your crap before posting please!
The Elk, for YOUR INFORMATION, are doing very well all over Montana EXCEPT where the Wolves now dominate! Explain that fact away!
I tend to think your type of "green" is the ignore reality and facts type! Just keep espousing your "feel good" crap no matter what the facts depict - what does that accomplish? I hope you "wake up" and get back in touch with reality in time to try and solve this Wolf overpopulation problem.
To deny that it is a problem is simply just more "head up your ass" blathering! You have stated no fact just the way you feel and emotions! And I will take the time to state here again - the obvious - you are part of the problem and not part of the solution.
Oh, I know many, many well educated nitwits of your type brent! I and many others refer to you and your ilk as "intellectual idiots"!
You are so "well educated" and so sure of your "feelings" that you in your own mind could not be wrong! Thus the intellectual idiot nom de plume! You are the one worthy of others sorrow not me!
You go ahead and switch anything you want to anywhere you want! That does not in any way transform you from being a coward! One who is unwilling (or unable!) to answer my simple and direct questions of you! You have justly earned the disrespect of so many on this forum! Including mine!
They were simple and direct questions of you brent - I suggest you go back and make an attempt at answering them! Show the rest of us what you know about the Wolf problem!
Til then my advise to you is keep your "intellectual idiot" opinions regarding Wolves to yourself. You make no sense to anyone. And further blatherings regarding the Wolves will only harm yourself.
To bad your lastest postings contain no facts just "feelings" - I contend EVEN your feelings are fraudulent!
The Big Game Herds of the Rocky Mountains deserve better than you! Go sniff some Wolf farts!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

The point I was trying to make was not that academicians are God-like and never to be challenged, but that maybe, just maybe you lads might consider that he knows a bit more about what he's talking about than what you give him credit for. But since the whole topic seems to have degenerated into a slinging match, you all can play amongst yourselves.

Kamo Gari

And no, BTW, I'm not one of his students, but he has in the past been helpful to me with his insights and advice into hunting.

varmitguy! You pretty much hit the nail on the head! Bottom line, the wolf has done no good or benefit for man kind. They are here to stay, I can live with it, obviously much better than Brent could live with out them. More wolves means less game. No excuses, no B.S.
Big game numbers are down, simple math, how many elk can 1000 wolves eat in a year? They eat elk 365 days a year. I can not see why Brent, Boreal, Kamo, can't grasp that. It is it out of thier realm of comprehension? Or are they in that category of eco terrorists?

I don't even want to see our Game and Fish take control of the wolf management. It will break them, or they will just have to raise license fees to cover costs associated with wolf management. With no benefit to those that pay for licenses. Much the same as the Grizzly bear, millions of dollars to manage, coming from hunters pockets, and no benefit to hunters!
The hunters, trappers, and fisherman, pay for wildlife management in Wyoming, not taxpayers, not non-hunters, if you don't buy a licnese of some type in Wy you don't contribute one penny to wildlfie management.

Kamo:
Before you leave, could you tell us what credentials Brent has that makes him know so much about wolves?
thanks.

Kamo,

Yes we will continue to play among ourselves, instead of play with ourselves!

And we are right on the issue, of the fact, that the wolf is affecting hunting,negatively, as the anti's want, and it bothers Brent, that we the low life, illiterate few, might be right.

quote:

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KENNY!?!?!?!?!!??
YOU'RE ALIVE!?!?!?!!??

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Ah yes, alive and apparently cloned once or twice.

How nice to be gone a while and then to come back and find the same old nonsense. Attacking me is a great way to fight wolves. Notice not one of them has anything like science to offer in defense of their position. Only ridicule for the messenger. I think they must be foaming at the mouth by now.

In the meantime, these guys will just have to learn to live with them, because wolves are what they have, and they aren't going away anytime soon.

Anyone that wants to actually learn about the effect of wolves on ecosystems, and what happens to ecosystems w/o wolves can find most of it on line, esp. if you can get a hook into an academic library. None of the work is particularly difficult to read (though it is apparently too tough for Kenny and his clones) so you can all decide for yourselves.

The funny thing about education is that it really can set you free of walking in lock-step with someone else's opinion.

Brent

Heck from what I understand the elk in the west face a bigger problem than wolves, IT`S DEVELOPEMENT! More elk will be lost over the next 30 years to the bulldozer and shopping mall than the wolves could ever eat. Just watch as more people choose to live out west. City floks will buy up the best land, post it and then lobby for no hunting. It`s something that has been happening in the east for 20 years and it`s happening more and more in the west. The wolf won`t be the downfall of elk, developement will. Just wondering Kudo if wolves were removed from the lower 48 whats next on your dance card, Griz?

quote:

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Originally posted by Kamo Gari:
The point I was trying to make was not that academicians are God-like and never to be challenged, but that maybe, just maybe you lads might consider that he knows a bit more about what he's talking about than what you give him credit for. But since the whole topic seems to have degenerated into a slinging match, you all can play amongst yourselves.

Kamo Gari

And no, BTW, I'm not one of his students, but he has in the past been helpful to me with his insights and advice into hunting.

---

Gari,
By now you can see why acedemics like Brent and professional natural resource managers like me don't even bother trying to discuss the wolf issue with the likes of monty/RMK/Kudu/Varmint. You see, they are only trolls who get on permissive forums like this and have a good time displaying their enormously sick minds. They like to fight. They distort, cajole, and name-call to get a rise out of others. They make outlandish statements again and again like the wolves are overpopulated or one thousand wolves are going to eat all the game...blah blah blah. As if 1000 (an inflated number) wolves are going to wipe out all the game in the entire west. They speak of the horror of how a wolf kills a game animal. Have you ever been to a slaughter house? Monty/RMK/Kudu/varmint (Kudu+) is/are not worth our time.

There are many examples of their trolling. Here is one:
"Big game numbers are down, simple math, how many elk can 1000 wolves eat in a year? They eat elk 365 days a year. I can not see why Brent, Boreal, Kamo, can't grasp that. It is it out of thier realm of comprehension? Or are they in that category of eco terrorists?"

Well Gari, our 3000 northern Minnesota wolves eat about 45-50 thousand deer every year. Hunters kill about 60-80 thousand deer in minnesota's wolf territory each year. Deer make up about 80% of an average Minnesota wolf's diet. A large wolf can eat up to 20 pounds of meat in one sitting. A maintenance diet for an average wolf is 3.7 pounds of meat per day. Wolves don't eat every day. The average wolf kills about 15-20 deer per year. In Minnesota's wolf range, there are about 4.5 wolves per 100 square km. In Minnesota's wolf range, there are an average of 12 deer per square mile. In Minnesota, outside of the wolf range, there are an average of 15 deer per square mile. So you see Gari, Brent and I and others educated in natural resources actually CAN "grasp that."

Yes, we know that the Jellystone elk pop. is down. I view that as a good thing. I don't think that Jelleystone should be an elk sink of animals that are forced to migrate out of the park where eager shooters pay large sums to outfitters and private ranchers to "hunt" the herds. I've hunted the late elk season two times in the Madison River valley. Driving to the trail head (to public land), one sees herds of hundreds of elk on the private ranches. They stand around right next to the main highway. If you pay the landowner or the outfitters that lease the land, you can shoot one of those elk. I've even heard from other hunters that some outfitters have been known to use snowmobiles to keep the herds on their lease. When you get to the trailhead, you park your car and walk or ride horses (usually rented from the outfitters) up into the high country where you do your best to shoot one of the elk that is migrating through to the private property. Yes, I don't care if that late hunt continues. I'd rather see Jellystone as a healthy balanced ecosystem where overpopulation of game animals is not the problem it has recently been, and is not a sink of shootin' elk for Kudu+ to kill.

Despite my opinion about Jellystone wildlife, I don't think wolves should be forced onto the local people. I think states should manage their wildlife the way they want. I'll say it again: I think wolves could and should be in a few places like Jelleystone and a few wilderness areas, but I don't think I'm the one to make that decision. It should be a state decision. But if they are going to have wolves out there, I think Wyoming's proposed management plan is the way to go in the future. Despite my stated view, The trolls call me names like "ecoterrorist" or "greenie environmentalist" or cabbage-headed tofu-eatin' raisin-gobblin' rope-suckin' flatlander, or whatever. KUDU+ is/are idiots.

The Feds won't take a step as big as Wyoming did, so the states need to take "baby steps". They need to work with the feds like Montana and Idaho are doing to manage the future wolf pop. in the rockies.

Gari,
I (and Brent) could go on and on with hard data like I have presented. We could provide numerous references to back up such data. We could have serious, intelligent, and involved discussions on the subject. But on a forum where garbage like the trolls spew is allowed by the administrators, one cannot have an intelligent discussion. Hence, the ravings of the fanatic trolls are what you will mostly hear here.
Bye.

quote:

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Originally posted by Brent:
Ah yes, alive and apparently cloned once or twice.

Brent

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Actually Brent, I was referring to Mr. Hawg's avitar. That's Kenny, from the South Park TV show. Kenny gets killed on almost every episode. The kids always yell "Oh My God! They Killed Kenny! Those Bastards!" Oh, and my story about the Wainwrights is from a Larson cartoon.
Just trying to have some fun.

Well I don't wanna turn this argument into a we/they thing. In Canada we have LOTS of wolves and LOTS of bears they both prey on our game animals, especially the calves in the spring. Funny thing though we don't get all fired up like some Americans about wolf predation, I think it may be because the wolves have always been here. We co-exist with them and everything is fine they eat some game and so do we. I don't really see what the big fuss is about.