Ditto what Blue posted. And that is exactly my point, I just hope most (and most are) can distinguish fact from farce or misinformation, since there is/has been some misinformation (or bad advice)posted on this forum regarding the issues Blue posted. Some might call it bias...................



MtnHtr

allen, here goes my thoughts. I think ya pay too much, you probably drive an H2 and without a doubt ride a damn quarter horse, wear wrangler jeans,cowboy hat and NIKE tennis shoes

PS, just for you blue, I would say that to allen face to face

I guess I just don't get this conversation.Weatherby Vangaurds come out of the box with the target they used and guarenteed accuracy.In real hunting situations where there is know bench or sand bags and the shot could be standing or other off hand type shots,what difference does it make when your already whabiling around?What punches paper the best is not always the best hunting in the brush type of firearm one needs.
It's practice with the gun you own and your capabuilities not the price or add on's or the groups you shoot from the bench.

Just my opinion.Jayco.

Jimmy



I can truly say that it would be my hope that someday I will have the pleasure of meeting everyone on this forum face to face. Don't know what I would say, but I do know that there are a very fine bunch of people who write on these forums, including all who have participated in this particular thread. And I am betting that if we were all sittin round a table lookin at each other we might be a bit nicer to each other.



The thing is, when one is with someone it is of course easy to judge the tone of the other person and respond accordingly. But here that is tough, and as I know personally, things get out of hand.



I know you would call me names Jimmy. But that would be okay.



Mountainhunter



I don't necessarily think that bias in firearms ownership is a bad thing. One likes what one likes, and if one is fortunate enough to have made life decisions that allows one to be able to own firearms that cost a bit more than factory, then I think that is fine.



All I was saying is that one can rigorously argue their positions, whether biased or not, without personally attacking the other person.



In going over this entire thread again, I am able to see and accept certain parts of both points of view. I believe that people should be proud of their accomplishments in life, and if one of those accomplishments is to be able to own a $7000 rifle, or a $50,000 Mercedes, or a $500 hunting knife, or a $1500 pair of binoculars, that is fine. I also believe that it serves no purpose for those who do not have those items to be jealous of those who do. (and do not misunderstand, as I am not saying that I know whether you are jealous or not) All I am saying is that the better thing to do is instead to devise a way to get what one wants.



By the same token, those who have the items should not put down those that don't.



Again, I have a feeling that if the discussion was face to face some of the unpleasantries would have never gotten as far as they did. The ultimate bottom line to this whole thread is that there are many different kinds of guns and there are many different kinds of people. There is room for everyone, and everyone's voice should be heard.



Blue

Ditto.

Harping over the cost of a rifle as if it is the only factor is absurd. I'll bet Allen would lose less money on resale of his Legend than you will on your $1500 Remington. (The biggest loss I ever took on a rifle was a Savage.)

Echols Legend $6800
Custom 700 $1500

Savings $5300

What if anything is gained over let's say the Weatherby Vanguard or a Remington 700 in real life hunting cicumstances for 500 bucks or so?

Just my opinion.Jayco.

Mikelravy, that is a very good point, and most certainly true.

As to the rest of this nonesence, I can't help but feel responsible for a large portion of it. I want to publicly apologize to both D'Arcy Echols and Allen Day. I truly am sorry. In requesting the photograph of Allen's .338 that D'Arcy put togethor, I had no idea it would create such a backlash and spark such hateful resentment, for something I have great admiration for. That is hard work and the quest for perfection in anything you strike out to accomplish. I do not own an Echols "Legend" and as such should keep my mouth shut regarding it.

The creation of this post was done with spite and hate in mind, and I became a target. My words were also thrown around with complete disregard and with intent to call me on the carpet. What I said in rebuttle would have been said face to face, I guarantee it. That is why I post under my own name, as it causes me to reconsider every time I post. I have always called a spade a spade and will continue to do so.

I have a rifle that I have put years of thought into, not to mention more money than I ever should have in the works. It will be completed within the month and I was exited to post pictures of it along with the story behind it. I am now seriously recinsidering that intention, for obvious reasons.

Chuck

For just $476* you can have the legendary quality, value and performance of a Weatherby, guaranteed accuracy of a 1 1/2" 3-shot group at 100 yards**, and a factory-shot proof-of-performance target in
every box.
*MSRP (Actual price may be lower. See your dealer.)
** When used with factory-loaded, premium ammunition.


Upgrade your existing Vanguard and customize your new Vanguard
-----------------------------------------------------------Weatherby's are just plain hard to beat.Under 500 bucks.Jayco.

Chuck



I don't read the creation of this post as being created with spite and hate in mind. I don't think you should either.



I, for one, and I am sure one hell of a lot of other people, and maybe more, were very happy that you asked Allen to post pictures of his Legend. I enjoyed the hell out of that Photograph.



Moreover, I am bettin that if Mountainhunter had a few extra bucks he might consider spending some of it on a custom rifle or two.



I just think that when you can't see the other guy blink things can be taken a lot more seriously than they were meant, and that might be what happened here. There is a lot of testosterone on this forum, and that is a tough thing to go up against.



As for your Rifle, please post pictures of it, and tell us all about it. And be proud of your accomplishment of being able to plan it, design it, work for it, and finally own it, regardless of what it cost, and regardless of what it is made out of.



Others



I think one has to purchase guns much the same way as one purchases art. You buy guns for enjoyment, and if you are one day lucky enough to make a buck on them (or maybe just not lose money on them) you are still ahead for all of the enjoyment that you received from them.



I am almost positive that Allen and others who own Legends did not buy them with the idea that they would make money on them. IN fact, I doubt they were purchased with the idea that they would ever be sold, regardless of what money they brought.



Blue

Why is there Remington bashing? I can give you five reasons why,

1.] hideous safety

2.] brazed on bolt handle

3.] declining quality control

4.] non existent customer service

5.] a trigger group made from stamped metal

and these are true reasons that DO exist. I notice you built your Remingtons. Why not just buy them over the counter if they are so dependable? The many hunter/shooters that have bought over the counter Remingtons tell a much different story. Remington used to have one of the best names in firearms manufacturing but in the 1980's all that changed and Remington hasn't done anything to cure the problem. They have earned everything that has been thrown at them. Remington needs to get back to their roots. Lawdog

Jimmy, you certainly can say anything you'd like to my face, and I hope you and I can meet sooner rather than later. I've enjoyed your company over the years on these forums very much.

And: I DO wear Wranglers. I AM a long-time quarterhorse fanatic, even though I sold all of our horses some time back. I'm just too busy these days to keep up with them.

I HATE H2s, and I currently drive a Ford Excursion (diesel). I don't wear Nikes, because they're too narrow for my feet, so for workouts I wear New Balance. Beyond that, I wear Hawthorne packers, Russell's, and Danner's.

And I have paid too much for certain rifles. Such as the fancy, disfuntional wood custom jobs I've owned that wouldn't shoot or feed worth a damn. They were indeed overpriced, and not worth the money or the trouble by any stretch of the imagination..........

AD

Chuck, no apology is necessary. This kind of backlash comes with the territory. No matter what sort of rifle you discuss, someone thinks you've paid too much for it, and someone always is in ownership of something much cheaper that's just as good if not better........

AD

allen, the very same here, glad you were able to see my attempt at humor.

I still think your a bit of a ASS





I know Jimmie will appreciate that "tongue in cheek " humor

Chuck, I did like that !!!!!!! Ifn' ya dish it out, ya damn well better be able to take a bit of it.

Your time is comin

I am not a wealthy man, far from it, and I have spent most of my life living, often alone, in some of the most isolated wilderness areas of B.C. There, in very severe weather conditions, I carried a .338 or .375 every bloody day, for hours on end.

I will simply say that I never had a rust problem, using simple riflecare techiques, with my chrome-moly rifles. I have and do own stainless rifles and barrels, I don't like the way they cycle and I have used teflon, as well, never again.

If, I were in my forties, I would buy an Echols "Legend" rifle in .338 in a short heartbeat, period. I would do this for the same reason I bought my Rolex, my two Zeiss binos, custom backpack, boots, sleeping bags and knives; because they work better and every little bit counts.

I have had people with far more money than I will ever have look at some of my guns and see my packs, etc, when visiting and snicker to themselves; these are people that "go hunting" and "go hiking". I am a hunter and a former, longterm, professional outdoorsman, that's the difference.

What exactly is hideous about the M700 safety? Its simple, quiet,easy to use and unless you start doing shithouse gunsmithing ,its plenty safe.

Brazed on handle. I've heard its real scarey,but have seen only one case of a bolt handle breaking. It was on a rifle that had been overloaded and the action couldn't be opened. The owner,who was a 250lb plus lard ass, proceeded to balance against a shooting bench and stand on the handle trying to open it. After three attempts to use the fucker as a pogo stick,the handle broke.

Declining quality control. What company honestly hasn't had a slip in quality control lately. Nobody gives a shit anymore and if they do,its because they sold you a product that costs ten times more then its worth and the warranty was factored into the initial price.They could afford to give you two or three more replacements and still make a profit.

Customer service. I saw one case of customer service that was poor from remington. The gunsmith I use,had a M700 with a chunk of bolt face blown off. It turns out,the owner believed accurately measuring powder charges was optional and after damaging the rifle,had the smith send it into remington,in the hopes of getting it replaced for free. Remington politely told the guy to dream the fuck on and consider buying a powder measure and good safety glasses and sent it back. A terrible case of customer service.


"A trigger group made from stamped metal" and "Remington used to have one of the best names in firearms manufacturing,but all that changed in the 1980's".

If you buy into the stamped trigger being a quality issue,then remington went to shit long before 1980. The M721 has stamped metal parts and it dates back to the 40's. If thats still not good enough,theres a couple million M700's in circulation and for sale with born on dates prior to 1980,with the same stamped parts.

The biggest problem with remington,is this is the internet and JBelk told every asswipe on here,that would listen to him,that remington was bad. By the way were is Jbelk now? Oh thats right the phoney fucker is damn near bankrupt and no longer posts on here. Prior to the Famous horse trailer incident,you heard very little about remington.

No, of course I have never fired a rifle in wet weather and I cannot see, up close or at distance.



I used to work with men who guided JOC and Page, I have spent 1-3 month terms living, alone, in tents in the very areas they hunted, without my rifles rusting. I also have hunted with people, recently, who have guided some of the current big names in gunwriting and you might be a bit surprised at their attitudes concerning the over-all bush ability and knowledge level of some gunwriters.



If, you do not care for any gun, chrome-moly or stainless, it will rust. If, you do care for any gun, it will not rust, it's that simple.



I do not think that anyone "needs" an Echol's rifle and I didn't say that. I think that different people have different tastes and needs in many things, rifles included.



I would find an Echols "Legend" .338 with 5 Nosler 250 PT. Golds on board very suitable for hunting on the middle and northern B.C. coast which is the wettest area in North America and contains some of the largest Grizzlies. I have spent months working and hunting there, so, I have a bit of wet weather experience.

Mountainhunter

Just for the heck of it I went back and reread this entire thread. And I have to tell you that I don't think you are correct that either Allen or Chuck was "boasting" about being able to own and use a Legend Rifle.

If you read Allen's posts carefully, you will see that he is the one who comes closest to basically using his own experience to try to prove his point, rather than to rely on what everybody else says. He continually points out that "based upon his experience" with many other guns that he has owned and used over the years he finds the Legend Rifles to be the most reliable rifle HE HAS EVER USED.

That is not boasting my friend. Rather, that is telling of his experience, much the same way that you tell of your experiences. And believe me, telling of ones own personal experience is much better, and much more believeable than what some others have done on this thread with hearsay evidence.

I have read many of Allen Day's posts, both in this particular thread, and in many others. There is no doubt that when you read one of Allen's posts you can tell that he has very good equipment, whether it be his rifles, or his glass, or his other equipment. But I have never ever had the impression that Allen is "BOASTING" about owning that equipment in the sense that he is trying to make fun of those that do not own the same type of equipment that he does. I certianly have never ever gotten the impression that Allen believes that the only rifle in the world that anyone should own is a Legend Rifle. Rather, I get the impression that Allen believes that the Legend Rifle is the best rifle for him, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

WE all make choices in our lives. We choose whether to get higher education, what job to take, whether to marry, whether to have children, etc. etc. etc. MOreover, to a certain degree, we choose whether to accept the station in life we are at (we choose to be comfortable) or we can choose to not be comfortable and work harder to get what we want.

You yourself have made some very fine choices. You have told us that you chose a wonderful wonderful wife, and that you have some great kids and a house and some investments, and what guns you have. I don't think Anyone here has ever said that those decisions were bad decisions for YOU. Of course, Allen has chose a lifestyle in which he has worked damn hard to make a bit more money than most, such that he can afford a bit more than most. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, and to state that Allen has been bragging about it is to really not understand what is going on. Allen was asked to post a photo of his rifle. he prefers Legend Rifles. He provided the photo. Many many people enjoyed seeing that photo. I know I did, and I am betting that I make less money than anyone else reading this post. And I certainly don't think Allen was boasting or bragging.

The bottom line is that there is always going to be some folks who have more than you and some who have less. I know I have way way way less than you do, and I could sit here and complain that you were boasting about your expensive rifles. But I didn't becasue I don't think you were boasting about them, just as I don't think Allen was boasting about his. All he was doing was telling you what he had, and why he liked what he had. There was never any boasting about it.

Blue

Jimmy, My time came and went. I got stomped last week.

I have only one 700 from the custom shop and it is one of the best rifles I have ever owned. I don't care for the safety though.

MTn-Hunter: I tried to be civil on my original post, but true-to-form of a lot of folks here, you don't really read the posts carefully or you just ignore it if it goes contrary to your premise.

THe Remington safety issue MADE THE NATIONAL NEWS and I've known about it before I even knew who Mr. Belk was, so I take exception with your "ass-wipe" comment. That your rifle is accurate is great, but if accuracy was the issue, then a lot of us would be going out and buying those hideous Savage 110s from Wal-Mart.

Your rifle is to your liking and that's fine, but comparing it to an Echols Legend is like comparing Nicole Kiddman to Rosie O'Donnell. They both serve the same purpose I guess, but remember Rosie and other fat chicks are like riding Vespas, they're a lot of fun...until your friends see you riding one. Enjoy the ride. jorge

It's pretty tough to make a credible evaluation of a rifle or anything else without hands-on, personal experience with the product in question. Any other interpretation amounts to little more than ignorant guesswork -- and you're guessing.........

AD

allen day

You have your opinion and I'm entitled to mine regardless if you like it or not.

Conversation is over...

/ JOHAN

Damn, we can go on for ever on this subject. I have owned several custom's and handled a couple of Ledends and other guns by very well known smith's.The whole point is allen has had very goods results with his legends, they have served him well in many DG hunts and that is all that matters.
As to wheather the are overpriced, that is soley up to the buyer. I feel I can have an equal gun built for less so that is what I do and we all have that right.

I also drive a CHEVY

Everyone's entiteled to their opinion alright, but not all opinions are created equal.

AD

I knew there was SOMETHING I liked about you Although I drive a GMC Now you have me paranoid waiting for my turn to get dunked

and just for the record MtnHtr, how many M24's have you seen on the market for sale. I am talking "Real" M 24's not clone's.
I am aware of only one that a buddy bought out of Canada and yes it was a true/real deal M 24, and when he sold it, it brought 5400.00 with all factory goodies and orignal paperwork.

What the hell is wrong with you? Why are you badgering someone for buying his own rifle, fool? What are you, his dad? To me, you sound like a person who cannot handle freedom very well.

Mtnhntr--- You seem to have a patronizing and contemptuous attitude toward those who do not agree with your opinions on rifles. You appear to consider some of us as inexperienced dupes who are sucked in by cunning gunsmiths who are more huckster than gunbuilder and also seem to think that anyone who uses high-end equipment is just a snob who is trying to impress others.

This leads me to wonder what your experience is and exactly where you have spent your time bushwhacking and hunting. You may well be the ultimate expert on this board, I honestly don't know, but, I am curious as to the extent and type of your experience.

None of you guys are going to settle this if you keep taking jabs at each other. Just as in any other form of argument, you all bring your evidence to the table. But here you have no independent and neutral factfinder to determine what evidence is fact, and what evidence is not fact. No final arbiter of truth.



Moreover, much of what all of you say is subjective, meaning very subject to individual interpretation rather than objective measurement. And even if you do have objective measurement, you have no document or other agreement as to what those objective measurements mean.



Let sleeping dogs lie as far as what nasty things have been said to each other, and move on.



Blue

MtnHtr, you have got to be kidding me! Don't tell me you started this thread with the intent of tearing something apart that you know nothing about. Your more intellegent than that.

Please tell us what you know about an Echols Legend and compare it to your blueprinted Model 70. That comparison on a single post would be nice.

I'll look forward to your post, then I think I'll seperate myself from this forum for awile.

Chuck

How do you explain the multiple law suits regarding the safety then? What does the military argument prove? That stuff they buy is from the lowest bidder? Believe what you want, but the Remington safety IS an issue. I'm sure there are a few gunsmiths that visit here that can elaborate on the issue. The military 700 are EXTENSIVELY reworked by the armed forces including the safety. You are proving a point yet again, even the mot ardent 700 fan recognizes the safety as a problem. jorge

CN,



You and others have been babbling on these forums about how superior the Echols Legend is over all other working class rifles while at the same time ganging up on others in other subjects - The Hostile 300Win mag thread over on the Med Bores forum is a classic example. Put downs to Rem 700s, 300WSMs etc, however subtle. You can play em down if you want to, I know from my E-mails and PMs I'm not the only one who feels this way.



As for my credentials? I'm just your average working class guy. I'm a do-it-yourselfer type person, I usually root for the underdog in most cases especially if they've earned it. I have more respect for the hunter who earns his game thru knowledge, skills and bootleather. I don't look down on the guided hunter if he pulls his weight and isn't afraid to get his hands dirty on a fair chase hunt. Arrogant, snobby people lose points quickly with me. I have been blessed with a great wife, family and a wide range of friends of various social classes. I'm the fella who will pull you aside if I think you are getting a raw deal. As for my wealth status, I have investments in both short and long term funds, interpret that any way you want.



As for my hunting credentials, I hunt almost 95% unguided on mostly public land. I own a modest home with all of my trophies taken on public land. I have two animals in B&C, have helped guided a couple others to B&C animals too if that sort of thing is important to you. People hunt for a variety of reasons, I don't look down on the trophy hunter or meat hunter as long as its fair chase.



As for the M24, I brought it up because it is a Rem 700, although with certain upgrades. You can have these same upgrades in your field grade Rem 700 for sporting uses. The M24 is a new version recently introduced by Remington. There are plenty of older military version 700s in use with the same safety as found on the sporting models. The M24 is not available to the general public, its for law enforcement and military only. The price does include a HD transport case, a Leupold MKIV M3, fixed power scope & mounts. Keep in mind, plenty of agencies use the lower cost Rem 700PSS models. One sheriff's dept I know of did use a bone stock Rem 700BDL in 308Win.



I know the armourer for a nearby Fed prison, he tells me they have and use the Rem 700PSS for their sniper weapons, Fed Gold match grade in 308Win for ammo. Now why has the military and various other gov agencies stuck with the Rem 700 all these years? Enlighten me................



MtnHtr