All,



Its getting old hearing about all the Remington 700 bashing, "class-less" SS barrels and other such "nonsense".



One would think from reading recent threads on here that in order to obtain a rugged, dependable, accurate working big game rifle that a overpriced custom from one of the big names in rifle building would have to be contracted.



I say Bull-Shit to all of these notions. I'll put my recently built $1500 Rem 700 in 300WM (built by yours truly & a lesser known 'smith) up againest any one of those $7000+ big name rifles anyday! Rain, snow or shine except the Artic region, my SS barrel might split in those sub zero temps! But in that case I can build or buy a cheap ADL in '06 to fill that niche, musk ox don't know the difference do they?





As for the $$ savings, I'll put it towards other areas in life. (American Fund's excellent stock portfolios, they have a great rep)



Looks like our military has given the Rem 700 a pretty good work-out, read more here.



Btw, please note that the M24 sports a 416R SS barrel and as for the Rem extractor:



"The Army has been fielding the M24 system for a little over ten years now. The first M24s produced for the Army in 1988 were sent to SOTIC. Just this year, the Army changed them out. With ten years of use, several new barrels and approximately 75,000 rounds through them, the rifles have performed well beyond the expectations of those involved with the system�s development, in particular given that the rifles are used for training and undergo significant stresses. (By the way, only after ten years and 75,000 rounds did the extractors begin to fail on these rifles.) The M24 will not be the last SWS the U.S. Army purchases, however"



I was not going to post this thread but after reading some of the other threads, I felt it was necessary so some of us can breath in some sanity for a day!



MtnHtr

Well, I never go in for 700 bashing since I don't own one, almost picked one up one time in 375 for 350 dollars, but it wasn't what I was looking for and I was tight on money so passed. You 700 lovers would have liked it though, say 8 boxes high by 3 or 4 tall, any 700 you want for 350 bucks. It was a few years back when a dealer was pulling out of California and liquidating his inventory.

I don't think that a rifle has to be 7000 or even 1500 to be a good hunter though, that looks like a group shot out of my 03 springfield sporter in 06, and I think total I have in that gun about 350 bucks, well, 500 once it gets back with the new mod 70 style safety installed properly (a dremel is the improper way in case you were wondering, that is what the extra 50 buck cost comes from, fixing my mistakes).

I think that 1500 is a good budget for a fine rifle. It is actually more than we normal people can usually budget.

Red

Hey there's room for both Remingtons and Echol's Legends just like there's room on the road for old Chevy's and Mercedes. If you're minding the speed limit a Mercedes won't get you there any faster but it might be a little slicker in doing so. The same applies for rifles except that getting a little bit better gets alot more expensive quickly.......DJ

Who is bashing Remington M 700s? I have owned several and they have all performed great. I like the M700. And I do not think that they would have too much trouble is seriously cold tempuratures. Any rifle will not operate properly in sub zero weather if it is not properly cleaned before being exposed to really cold weather. There is nothing wrong with M 700s.

If you read the threads in the gunsmithing forum long enough, you'll come across the Rem 700 bashers. The Rem's trigger, extractor, push feed operation and a few other features are often critiqued by those claiming to be "in the know."

I've owned and hunted big game on extended hunts with Ruger 77s, Browning A bolts, Win 70s (both versions), Weatherby MK5, Rem 700s and Rem Mod 7s. Took big game with all of em, most were factory jobs and never had a letdown except for rust (in the bores of CM barrels) and a couple wood stock failures - one broken wood stock, left it behind the back seat of a PU - crunch! Another stock, a German Weatherby, split at the rear tang after long hard use in cold weather!

MtnHtr

Well, I have never hunted with an expensive (over $1000.00) rifle in my life, even though I covet them. And I have never hunted with a Remington Rifle in my life, becasue I don't covet them. I don't care how accurate they are, or how inexpensive they are, or what kind of trigger they have, or whatever. I just wouldn't want one due to the fact that they are a Remington. I am not "bashing" them. They just are not aesthetically pleasing to me. There shouldn't be anything wrong with that.



As for the notion that people with a lot of money waste money on purchaseing expensive rifles, I don't think purchasing an expensive (a relative term) rifle is a waste of money. People work hard and smart in order to enjoy what they consider the finer things in life. If they believe that a piece of hunting equipment is something that gives them both pride of ownership and good reliable service, then the price paid is of little importance. As I have stated before on this forum, I choose to hunt with the best binoculars I can get. They are relatively expensive and many people think I am "crazy" for spending so much on binoculars. But I have gotten good service out of them, just as I am sure the folks that purchase a fine custom rifle get good service from their purchase, and that is what matters. It is a question of personal value, which is a very subjective thing, and therefore mostly immune from attack.





Blue

You reach a point with any rifle,of diminished returns. For most a high end custom in the five digit range,is a status symbol and when you piss away the money that some people do,the prices of these rifles are a drop in the bucket. The sad part,is many of these rifles are nothing but a loopy or zeis scope,McMillan stock and a reworked action and high end barrel. Most any gunsmith worth a shit,can put these parts together and get a reliable and consistant rifle. Yes there are special magazine boxes(never mind the fact that the factory ones do the job just fine).Special rings,that are supposedly more durable and hold zero better,which no doubt they do. But I've yet to see scope ring failures with even cheap weaver style rings. Cheap scopes have failed though.



There are simply to many beat to shit M700's and M70's out there that always fire when needed ,have never misfed and even shoot 1moa consistantly,to believe that a custom is the only way. Also don't buy into the bullshit that these high end customs,sell like hotcakes either. Plenty of the name brand smiths you hear mentioned,complain of poor sales.

Just finished working up loads for a M700 ADL 30-06 70's vintage purchased at a local pawn shop for $300. The stock had been chopped off and was dinged up, but barrel and action fine. I dropped it into a Boyd's laminate stock I had sitting in the corner, topped it with a 3x9 Burris that the local shop was selling for $149, loaded up some 180gr Hordady's (given to me with the purchase date 1969 marked on their box) @2800fps, and the last two 5 shot groups were 1.2" & 1.4" in the Shoshoni, Wyoming wind. Looks good, shoots good, and I suspect will kill anything legal to hunt around here. Total price- under $600, but to each his own.

Rem 700's shoot. But they have 2 insurmountable problems:

1. Safety. The rem factory safety causes accidental discharges far too frequently, and people have been killed as a result. Replace trigger/safety with a Timney setup.

2. Extraction. Rem extractors don't break on the shooting range (usually). But drive around in a landcruiser over 200 or 300 miles of very rough road, get the ammo and gun dirty and gritty, and then try to get the thing to work in 100+ degree heat. Lots of hunters have been disappointed with what they found.

Give me a mauser...

I don't care for the 700. I've had bad experiences with them and don't care to have more. They are over rated in my opinion, I'm sure they can be as good as any but I'm tired of the Remington fans running down every other rifle as inaccurate, poor triggers, whatever. Just because it's a Remington is definately not an accuracy gaurantee.
Shoot what you like, brag about how good your "Brand X" is but to me personal atacks that stem from a difference of opinion just shows ignorance and imaturity.
I have several different makes of firearms and have kept the ones that shoot well and gotten rid of the ones that didn't. Mini-14's are all crap if you listen to the AR fans, but I have one that shoots as good as many bolt guns.
Don't take things to personal. Boredom fuels many arguements.

MT-Htr: I think that for every 700 basher, there are equal number of Mod70, Weatherby, Rugers, fill-in-the-blank bashers as well. Your rifle is certainly impressively accurate, but to a lot of us, accuracy is but one, albeit important component of what makes a great rifle. According to you, your rifle cost you about 1500 bucks or so. The target below, was made by an "out of the box" Winchester Model 70 that cost me about 600 bucks back in 1992. Having said that, there is no doubt in my mind that an Echols Legend is absolutely the best one can get in terms of the "whole rifle" concept of form, fit and function and most importantly, utter reliability when it comes to hunting the owrld's most dangerous and EXPENSIVE animals.

The real Remington bashing has a lot to do with the COMPANY's lack of quality control, particularly since about 1990 and some morons on this and other forums that if you dare to question or counter their postulations they get downright insane.

Moreover, Remington has had to fend off litigation regarding the design of their safety which is prone to failure if it gets too dirty. The two piece bolt is another bone of contention, as there are several here ( including myself) that have seen this phenomenon occur. I've been guilty of "Remington Bashing" myself, but thanks to other folks here and in other forums, I've come to understand that it is a matter of preference, PREEFERENCE based on what I've experienced, researched and LEARNED from other folks with a lot more "trigger time" than I'll ever have. Lastly, I do firmly believe that a claw extractor type CRF/98 type rifle, is both more aesthetically pleasing to me and yes I do believe more reliable under certain hunting condiditons. Enjoy your accurate rifle. I apologize for the large picture, I'm not samrt enough to reduce it. jorge

Your insecurities are showing.........

AD

It doesn't matter what kind of gun you mention, there is always that group that had bad luck w/ that particular rifle brand. The fact is, most of the people that bash diff. rifles have never shot them theirselves. In my book, I think they need to shut their mouths if they have not shot that particular kind of rifle or been at the range and witnessed one for themselves.

I think that all rifle makers make good dependable rifles at one point but, some companies seem to make more "duds" than others and that just kills their popularity in some areas.

I have seen 200 dollar rifles that will hang w/ the best customs out there.

It is just a matter of preference. I like a Dodge truck, many hate them, mine has over 100,000 miles on it and runs like a top. It is all just a matter of preference.

Reloader

I get by quite nicelyt on slightly modified factory rifles. (not Remingtons). I don't kid myself into thinking that they are as good as the premier custom riflemakers. If an Echols legend cost the same as a Rem 700 which one would you take?

I have done just fine with the likes of Winchester-Ruger and Remington factory un-modified rifles.If one wants to punch paper for accuracy then another might be in order.But for the guy that punches alittle paper for fun and is out for the meat during hunting season,the standard Ruger- Remington's and Winchester's have worked well for me from below zero temps to about 40 degree's high average during the season.So far they haven't let me down from a 50 yard to over a 400 yard shot on Elk.
For me atleast if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Just my opinion.Jayco.

Jorge

I don't know what software you are using, but whatever photo editor you are using, there should be a menu item Image/Image Size/Resize.

Blue

Your position is very transparent.

AD

Mtn Hunter, your entire first thread is based on a personal attack. Fuelling subsequent attacks!

Chuck

I know we're talking rifles here but Remington hasn't received a tenth of the bashing Colt Inc has over the years.

I went back to reread and can't seem to find any "SS" bashers. Maybe you could point them out, while explaining how they are bashing stainless.

Chuck

MtnHtr, it appears from your posts that your panties are a bit tight
I really do't think that Remington takes any more bashing then several other makers. They all have problems once in a while. Remington has has a safety problem for years and should be bashed for that.
As to allen, I do know that he has a couple of 700's in his collection and he has made good comments as to how well they shoot with a little bit of work to them.
I have several Remington's that are great guns and the LTR line is some of the best out of box guns around.

Lighten up and enjoy your Remington

If it makes you feel better, I have a LH SA 700 that is awaiting a SS barrel, McMillan stock, and Talley light weights.



Chuck

Based on the one 700 I've owned I'm not too big a fan of them. I had extractor problems with mine on numerous occassions.

The only person who's been flushed out is you. Basically, you started this thread as a form of backlash, and mostly over the issue of price. Money. The price of some of the custom rifles mentioned on this forum has you all shook-up, so in an effort to make yourself feel better about things, and to somehow subconsiously get even, you'll resort to a diversionary thread like this one.

This is a very predictable dialogue. I don't know how many times we've had threads that discussed higher-end custom rifles in which someone didn't come out of the woodwork -- all a-twitter -- with the declaration that their less-expensive custom job, do-it-yourself-job, or even stock Savage 110 is "just as good" in every way as the more expensive rifle that was either discussed on that very thread or else another one.

The Great Motherhood Theory at work: "Everything's Even-Steven, 'cause I said so, or at least I want it to be so, and I want to feel better about this topic at all costs."

Even at the cost of the truth, I guess.........

AD

MtnHtr,



Gee, you flushed out a few Remmy bashers, all by yourself! Boy they were really hiding tight, I bet?



You like Remmy's, so what. So some people don't; deal with it. Life is too short to worry about the small stuff.



If you like something, and someone else does not, do not take it personal. If you want to start a "holy crusade", to defend the honor off all things that come in "green boxes", please go else were.



So you spent only $1500. to make a accurate Remington 700. Congrats. The last time I looked at your picture the only thing Remington was the action, which is less than one third of the package.



Take just about any good square action, and $1500. later, you have bought a good barrel, a well bedded McMillan stock, good rings, mount and a good scope. If you can reload decently, in in 99% of the cases you'll have excellent accuracy. This is no mystery. But you really have to ask yourself; is it really still a Remington?



If some one wishes to spend $5k to yield the same result, why should it bother you? It's not your money. They obviously believe that their money was well spent, just like you with your $1.5K.



Your happy with your creation, they are happy with their creation. So where's the bashing?



You are a legend in your own mind.



Bob

MtnHtr has a point that his rifle and similar ones shoot and function well. Also that there was a lot of Remington bashing here and I participated in some of it and stand by my statements.

Some of the bashing was led by Jack Belk who was very specific on the trigger situation. Some chose to ignore this issue like they do others by saying that they have "never had a problem".

My position on the Remington products is that they do not please me as a hunting rifle. There are many features and each one means more or less to you and me. Suffice to say that M 70's and Kimbers please me more.

As to the position that a few take that only an expensive rifle will function well is of course untrue. But if one has plenty of money it get's to the question of why not spend it on guns as well as other things.

In summary MtnHtr is looking for a fight and we have already had plenty on the topic. If someone would post something new on it or at least make it interesting then let's continue. Otherwise it's an old, well worn path.

The M700 is cheap, relatively speaking; therefore, it will always be inferior!

The bashing, of which you refer, is typically exhibited by the elitist snob; therefore, your arguments are mute.

Scott

Allen,



You've refered to SS barrels as "classless" in your syn stock thread and in the Gunsmithing forum you posted SS barrels were not really needed on wet weather hunts if you wanted to avoid rust problems. You know exactly what I'm refering to. As if the only way to go is a rust blued custom CM Kreiger barrel.



Chuck,



Don't play innocent here, you are well aware of our recent disagreements. On another forum, a gentleman had concerns/questions regarding his Win 70 WSM mag capacity. You had the audacity to recommend to the gentleman that he should go purchase a $7000 Echols Legend instead of addressing his concerns. Like I posted before, you boys have bought into a whole lotta blue sky.



As for Belk, good riddens.................



MtnHtr

"Audacity"? You idiot, there was tongue in cheek in that statement and you know it! Drag your dirty laundry around somewhere else.

There is also a huge difference between SS bashing and CM defending. Many of those who have used CM tubes just can't buy into the "In a rain or snowstorm you'll be pushing rust out of the bore before noon" BS that floats around these forums. Once again, I will state how I feel about CM vs. SS as a barrel steel. I have used and own both. I treat them both the same and both have treated me the same in return. So when I want a black barrel I'll use CM (been the teflon route and won't go back) and when I want a silver barrel I'll use stainless. I'm sorry if that somehow offends you, but deal with it.

Chuck

Chuck, come on now, you can't be on both sides
How the hell we gonna argue ifn' you can't decide on CM or SS your no fun at all

I have both also and each have performed above average, some on Remington and winchester's

Seeing as how you like to throw out prices, a little price check might be in order, before you do so again.

Chuck

I haver never owned a Remington nor a Winchester simply because off the shelf the build quality of both have always seemed to be a crap shoot.

It seems most Americans who want a decent rifle accept that their Remchester will need extensive tweaking or modification to get it to shoot accurately and/or reliably. Over here, when given the choice most folks get a European rifle and excpect it to perform right from the get go.

Those who go for Remchester tend to do so because of the huge range of different models avialable typically far more than most European companies produce.

If Remchester went for decent quality control and let their engineers design and build their rifles not the bean counters, I have no doubt they would give the Europeans a run for their money and us consumers would be the ones to benifit.

Regards,

Pete

Pardon me, $6800...........

MtnHtr

Read! Shoot! Aim!, RIGHT???????

Amoung other things, I think you need to take a remedial reading class.......

If it's not too much trouble, re-read the post I made in which I came up with the "classless stainless steel" comment. You'll see that that post was made strictly tongue-in-cheek, and was really meant to poke a bit of good-natured fun at the time-honored institution of rust bluing -- not at stainless steel!

Also, if you've read much of my stuff, you'll remember that one of my most trusted rifles over the years has been an old .300 Win. Mag. with a stainless Hart barrel. In fact, I currently own at least a half-dozen rifles with stainless barrels and/or actions, so it's pretty obvious that I'm not down on that material.

Getting back to the rusty-steel versus stainless discussion, I made the statement that if you cared for the metalwork properly (including tape over the muzzle), rusty steel worked satisfactorily in my experience in wet weather. And it has for me: From Oregon, Idaho, Montana, and British Columbia to various parts of Alaska, including wet spring bear hunting in SE Alaska.

I also made the statement in that same thread that I've had more trouble in wet weather with wood stocks than I have with blued steel. I followed up that declaration with the fact that I don't think, over-all, blued-steel holds up as well in wet weather as does stainless.

So I don't know what the hell your gripe is with me, other than the fact that your reading and comprehension skills don't seem to be worth a shit, and that you don't want me or anyone else to bring up rifle topics that exceed your budget.

If you, out of frustration, want to dig your spurs into someone over some person issue of your own that your're grinding your teeth over, you'd better try somebody else besides me.

If you find yourself in a self-dug hole like this one, it's a good idea to quit digging........

AD

Allen,

Downplay your supposedly "tounge in cheek" comments all you want. Facts are facts, I stated in my opening posts I was bringing some sanity to the table. And to me (and a shitload of others), paying $6800 for a worked over Win 70 is insane! That is all, if you offended then so be it.

As for Remington 700s, I think our military has cleared up alot of the issues surrounding them. Btw, I own and hunt with Win 70s too.

MtnHtr

Fellows:



I don't wish to enter the Stainless versus Blue argument, or the Remington Vs. Winchester argument, or the wood versus plastic argument.



Rather, just to say that I have opened my mouth way too wide a few too many times in these forums, and have learned a very valuable lesson from it. And that is to try and not say anything on the forum that I wouldn't want to say to the other person if I were standing face to face with them.



That doesn't mean that people should downplay the rigorous argument they are having between theirselves. The argument part is fine. The lesson I learned is that the argument can be kept separate from calling the other party names, insulting the other parties' intelligence, or calling into question the other parties' moral integrety. Doesn't even mean they shouldn't swear if they want to. it just means don't insult the other person. I did it, and I was wrong for doing it.



Things are getting pretty hot here. Enough said.



Blue

I'm not downplaying anything. Since facts are indeed facts, the FACT IS, you've misinterpreted much of what I've previously said in various posts, and you've done so out of intent. That's been plain enough for everyone to see, and you've shot your own credibility right through the foot in the process of presenting all this Mamma's Boy nonsense of yours. You seem to be your own worst enemy.

But beyond that, if any rifle I've discussed around here shakes up your personal set of sensibilities in terms of price, well that's just too bad. You have no personal experience with those rifles anyway, so your judgment is unqualified to begin with to determine the worth of anything beyond what you already own and use, as well as what you have-owned and have-used. Not all opinions are created equal by any means.

And if you've been paying attention, LOTS of expensive rifles get discussed regularly on these forums, including fine doubles, classic bolt guns, single-shots, etc.

I didn't know that acceptable topics for discussion had to pass the scrutiny of your own particular budgetary interpretations. Sorry, I set my own rules as to what I intend to talk about (these are FORUMS, after all), and judging by the number of views some of these posts have generated, there is a fair amount of interest in the subject matter presented, and I did presented it, to begin with, at the request of other members, in particular, Chuck.


AD