Yes, it is always bad when anyone disagrees. Every thread should just be where everyone has the exact same thoughts. Then only the first post is needed and everyone falls in lock-step.

Yeah, RIGHT!

If you do not explain the potential problems associated with any Hunting related activity, there will be those who have to repeat the mistakes to learn what others already know. Those with a bit of brain power can learn from others experiences without having to go through what they did.
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But...,(the other side) perhaps you all are right, EVERYONE who has "practice, training, confidence" should just use Head Shots. In fact, why limit Head Shots to those with "practice, training, confidence"??? If you have a firearm, just Head Shoot away.

A lot of states would not allow the use of .224 caliber centerfires on any big game animal.

It absolutely works if the animal is hit correctly. But doesn't leave a lot of room for error.

To me for culling when allowed a moderated 308 seems to offer more.

What I just can't understand is why only head shots.You can cull deer just as well using a much less risky shot.A deer shot in the lungs is just as dead.Cost issue?Using say the 30-30 will keep the cost the same as the .223.

the deer culls i've been involved with in texas
the brush is too thick to find a lung shot deer.
often the culls take place at night w/ spotlight
and the ranges you are shooting are 30-90 yds.
doesn't take much to knock the head off a texas whitetail doe and when you are culling 1-300 does off a place it is the most effecient
method i have been exposed to.
often these does are given away and a head shot makes for a good clean piece of meat when you're done.

quote:

Originally posted by Zhurh:
My daughter wants to kill some caribou with us when they come through nx month. After she shot the wife's 270, she decided just to use my old preban colt that has a scope. She's been shooting all kinds of floating debris with our high water on the Yukon and can hit a bou behind the ear at 100 yards; so it's a 223 nx month for the girl. I'm going to try and get some 223 noslers or boat tails at sportsmans before the caribou show up, but will use the old Q3131 just as quick.

If the gun shop I order my new guns at has a Stagg 6.8 SPC when we get in town; might pick it up. But I wonder if the 6.8 has as much kick as 270 though?

I recently fired the STAG 7L (longer barrel " Hunter" )

The weapon functioned well was accurate and had only slightly more perceived recoil than the light wt Stag 223.

They also offer a 5L (shorter barrel collapsing stock) if you desire a more compact design.

Most anything in a 223 will do for headshots.

To answer your previous question, a 6.8 will have less kick than a 270, and be better for body shots. It's a little lacking on power, but a TSX or even vmax at reduced speeds would still work well, heck probably anything "soft" will!

the trick to head shots is to wait till the deer is feeding ( head near the ground) If you shoot them they will go down. I'm sure somebody will chime in and say they had them run off. However in my experiance they go right down and even if still kicking you have enough time to finish them off. Just to clarifly my position I believe in using enough gun,However sometimes you need to be creative.

I hope for the morality of our noble sport that this thread is some sort of bizarre joke.

quote:

Originally posted by 31/2Makesmelaugh:
I hope for the morality of our noble sport that this thread is some sort of bizarre joke.

Please clarify.....

quote:

Originally posted by Bernie P.:
What I just can't understand is why only head shots.You can cull deer just as well using a much less risky shot.A deer shot in the lungs is just as dead.Cost issue?Using say the 30-30 will keep the cost the same as the .223.

I do neck shots. Here's how it works. You ride around in a vehicle and sling corn. Make a loop and when you get back to the beginning you'll usually have a couple of does eating corn.

Drive up until they start to get nervous. Usually around 100 yards. Get your gun out an place it in the sandbags. An elbow rest helps as well. Get the crosshairs on the intended target. Let out a sharp whistle. Place crosshair on white spot of neck and pull trigger.

Not tracking necessary. No ruined meat other than a little neck roast. Repeat as often as needed. No it's not hunting it's culling.

I have no experience with North American deer, but I assume that there cannot be too much difference between them and springbuck. In South Africa and Namibia thousands, possibly tens of thousands of springbuck, among others, are culled every year, mainly for the European market, All shots have to be head shots, the shottist pays for meat damage from the neck down. I have been involved as a culler here in the Eastern Cape, and have obviously had contact with many other people who also cull game for the commercial market. Although I used a .270 for my culling, by far the majority of these buck are culled using .223 rifles. As the number of rounds expended per night is quite high, and ammo is very expensive here, most load their own using Ammocil, Vmax or other varmint type bullets, although some do use hunting bullets.

All culling takes place at night, with most shottists driving and shooting over a frame outside the window of the truck, (Right hand drive in this area) and the lamper and loaders on the back of the truck.

At night, most of our buck, if jaw shot, (which obviously happens occasionally) will stand for a few seconds after the initial jump from the hit, giving time for a second shot.

Graham

3.5 MML

quote:

I hope for the morality of our noble sport that this thread is some sort of bizarre joke.


"Archery enshrines the principles of human relationships. The Archer perfects his form within himself. If his form is perfect, yet when he releases he misses, there is no point in resenting those who have done better than him. The fault lies nowhere."(Confucious)

Your name may not, but your post certainly does.

Equating morality with taking head shots at deer. Ever heard of the dominion covenant (Genesis 1:28).

Furthermore, anyone who takes game with a bow and makes comments about head shots from a rifle has got to be.............. I'll let others fill in the blanks.
I can't tell you how many deer, hogs and turkey I've seen archers lose because of poor shots,and thick brush.
I can recall one particular weekend when I accompanied some guys on an archery only deer hunt. Seven deer were arrowed, six were not recovered. That seems to be typical from my observation.
Gimme a break.

GWB

Another vote for 60 gr Nosler Partitions. I've taken a number of African antelope with it.
LDK

We used to cull blacktail (80-100 lb) with a 22LR so given proper set up and range, any 223 centerfire should work fine. As far as the morality issue, as long as you are using a CRF rifle, you should be OK. Those fingernail extractors can break and a hundred head bobbing does bearing down on you with teeth bared is not a place you want to be with a broken extractor.

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:
We used to cull blacktail (80-100 lb) with a 22LR so given proper set up and range, any 223 centerfire should work fine. As far as the morality issue, as long as you are using a CRF rifle, you should be OK. Those fingernail extractors can break and a hundred head bobbing does bearing down on you with teeth bared is not a place you want to be with a broken extractor.

haha!! Thank you for saving my thread. It was in desperate need of some good creative and genuine humor. In fact, my new rifle IS a CRF action.....it's a new Kimber 84M Pro Varmint (the now discontinued style, not the new ugly model).

I've been hunting with Eland Slayer since he was 2 years old, I can attest to his determination for making a good clean kill. He's one of the best I've ever seen. He has passed on many shots with both Bow, Rifle and Pistol, if the situation was not right.

I know he'll take extreme care in placing a head shot properly on a calm whitetail doe. If Mr. Big shows up, he'll either switch rifles or let him pass, he's done it before.

Good Conversations - Eland Slayer

Furthermore, anyone who takes game with a bow and makes comments about head shots from a rifle has got to be.............. I'll let others fill in the blanks.
I can't tell you how many deer, hogs and turkey I've seen archers lose because of poor shots,and thick brush.
I can recall one particular weekend when I accompanied some guys on an archery only deer hunt. Seven deer were arrowed, six were not recovered. That seems to be typical from my observation.

That pretty well sums it up from my experience also Geedubya.

I have nothing against archers, except that certain level of Elitism they seem to want to shake in peoples faces.

Most archers I have dealt with, while being good successful hunters, admit to allowing themselves a 10% loss factor when hunting.

I don't like that kind of math.

I really like the 60gr Partition that Federal loads. You'll have no trouble taking your does with it.

Tough to beat the 53X as a default setting,given the paltry twist rates Makers bestow the various .224's.

I might prefer the 62X's a smidge,if/when talking faster twist rates and of course think very highly of the 75A-Max and 75 Scirocco II at a distance.

from personal observation:

regarding the original question, any non-frangible (non-varmint) .223 hunting bullet would be just fine. winchester and remington both make very good bullets for the job. having said that, if you want to go with partitions, you will be just fine.

regarding .223 for body shots on deer, the .223 will never be my first, second or even third choice, but if for some reason it was necessary to use one, a PSP or "better" bullet heavier than 60 grains it will indeed do the job with adequacy under reasonable conditions.

personal preferences:

head shots are not a good idea - go for the heart and especially the lungs.

breaking one or both shoulders of deer is not necessary and there is indeed plenty of meat to waste - go for the heart and especially the lungs.

anything smaller than .257 is not a good idea for deer - flame away.

your mileage may vary.

quote:

Originally posted by The Slug:
I like the Winchester 64 grain Power Point.

I shot 2 smallish does (<80lbs) 3-4 years back, both high shoulder shots and had core jacket seperations.

My 2 loads are:
Nosler 60 partition
23.5 gr IMR 4895
Winchester brass
Remington 7.5 (small rifle benchrest)

Nosler 55 gr balistic tip
23.5 gr IMR 4895
Winchester brass
Remington 6.5 (small rifle)

Both these loads have the same POI through 200 in my sako 75.

quote:

Here's how it works. You ride around in a vehicle and sling corn. Make a loop and when you get back to the beginning you'll usually have a couple of does eating corn.

Drive up until they start to get nervous. Usually around 100 yards. Get your gun out an place it in the sandbags. An elbow rest helps as well. Get the crosshairs on the intended target. Let out a sharp whistle. Place crosshair on white spot of neck and pull trigger.

Not tracking necessary. No ruined meat other than a little neck roast. Repeat as often as needed. No it's not hunting it's culling.

m16 - appreciate the detailed explanation. the last sentence in your post is especially important and should drive home the point for anyone.