Who is comfortable with the .308 on Elk?

Mike

Legistine actu quod scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.

What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.

04 December 2005, 05:51

boom stick

quote:
Originally posted by Dr B:
The 308 will do anything the 30-06 will so It should work fine.
Dr B

damn!...guess i should tell all the 30-06 people to sell their guns...the 308 is woefuly underpowered for 200-250 gr bullets on the large bodied game

...for all the high s.d heavy for cal shooters the 308 will not do...sorry i respectfully disagree. the 308 is a good tool just not the tool for heavier 30 cal bullets am i wrong? the 30-06 is a bare minimum for brown bear...give 100 people a choice for brown bear between the carts and well you can guess my answer. the 308 is an ideal dear round though

04 December 2005, 06:00

PATRIOT76

308 with 150gr TSX out to 300 for elk? 400?
I figure you can get 2900 FPS @ the muzzle

04 December 2005, 07:32

schmaus

I believe that if you are not comfortable with that type of cartridge for elk than you should maybe take up some other type of hobby.

04 December 2005, 07:33

AI22-250

I have both a 270win Rem 700 w/ Leup. 3.5x10 loaded on top and a Savage 12FLV .308win w/ 6.5-20x50mm on top. Both rifles have taken Elk out to near 300 for the .270win and 220 with the .308. Both are very capable of taking Elk. Moose, Deer or for that matter, coyotes. I've never had one run more than a few yards. Shot placement is much more important than the Magnum tag on a shell. Each hunter should know the limits of his rifle and his capability. Always makes a fun and safe hunt.

04 December 2005, 07:44

Bobby Tomek

The .308 Winchester is more than sufficient for elk given the correct bullet choice and reasonable ranges. While I have not taken elk with one, I have recently been using the .308 (giving my 6.5mms a rest) on wild hogs, and a large, tough boar is every bit as tough as a bull elk. And the .308 has been doing a FANTASTIC job on a number of these critters...

04 December 2005, 09:50

Leanwolff

I've not killed an elk with my .308 W., but my cousin has killed 22 bull elk with his pre-'64 Win. 70 Fwt. in .308 W.

He does not reload and uses factory 180 grains, Win. or Rem. brands. He also has killed one Idaho Shiras moose with his .308 W., plus many Mule deer and Whitetail deer.

He's never lost an animal, and almost all his kills have been one shot.

He doesn't take 400/500 yard shots, as he's a very good hunter who gets closer than that.

Other than a Win. 94, .30-30 that he keeps in his Cessna 182 while flying the northwest mountains backcountry, that old Model 70 is his only big game rifle.

FWIW.

L.W.

04 December 2005, 10:18

M1Tanker

quote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
maybe if you are hunting under 50 yards with a 180 north fork, tsx or nos-par...in other words...not worth the risk...use a bullet-cart combo to go through heavy bone and keep truck'n. i would use a 270 over a 308...use enough to go snooter to pooter!

I have taken a lot of elk with a 308. Not to mention all kind of deer and I have no clue how many thousands of rounds of 308 fired in competition, to include 1000yd matches.

If you think for a second that the 308 lacks penetration then you are way off base. I have always used 165gr Partitions and have only recovered a couple bullets. My longest shot was a measured 287 yards on a massive spike that by some freak of nature was 3 years old according to the biologist at the check station. The bullet completely passed through both shoulders. I prefer the shoulder shot because it breaks bones and anchors them on the spot. I really hate to have to haul critters out of the nasty spots they always seem to find if they make much of a run.

As far as deer go I have never recovered a Partition fired from a 308 on one. They always go clear through.

A 308 will do the job very well. But I highly reccomend the use of premium bullets on elk, regardless of caliber.

No larger caliber will ever compensate for proper shot placement.

04 December 2005, 10:45

Jagter

Fully in agreement with M1Tanker - proper shot placement - that is what counts, irrespective of caliber and bullet weights which one would normally expect to use on a specific game type.

The .308 with real premium bullets like the GS Custom HV's perform extremely well on Impala and Kudu with light for caliber 130gr's.

Use of this fine performing combo of rifle and bullet results in practically no meat damage for the meat hunter and one shot kills with proper shot placement.

04 December 2005, 11:10

boilerroom

A friend of the family who recently passed away exclusively hunted with the 308 Win. He hunted with the Mod 88 since it's early introduction. Used little else throughout his many years of hunting.

He probably killed 40 Elk with that old rifle a dozens of bull moose.

04 December 2005, 12:54

IdahoVandal

Before I can answer I must ask:

Is the .308 going to be for a woman or a child???.....

04 December 2005, 13:01

schmaus

Awwww it sounds like IV is having some compensation issues....

04 December 2005, 14:28

cewe

The most popular cal for elk in Finland is the .308, this with a standard bullet like Sakos Hammerhead or Lapuas Mega. Personally I find the cal boring as itÂ´s so uncomplicated -cheap ammo, good bullets etc.

So IÂ´ll stick to my 9.3x62, .375 H&H and my new 8x60S!

04 December 2005, 17:01

jimmyd223

PATRIOT76, I find your question very interesting!!! I will add just a bit of a twist. How did the 308 and the 06 perform when they were all that was available? Before all the new and bigger super mags!! Sure, we had the wildcat but Elk have been killed for many years with 06' and the 308 and smaller for many years with much success.
For many years starting out elk hunting, I used a 99F in 250-3000 as it was the only gun I owned, not the best but it put several elk in the cooler with not a one being lost. I then got my fathers 99F in 308 and used it for several years with the same type of success.
Today,we have a much better selection of guns and ammo but I have no problem using a 308 for elk hunting.

04 December 2005, 19:13

Brad

It'll certainly give good kills on Idaho Whitetais thought to be 6.5 years old that aren't.....

04 December 2005, 19:15

Brad

Patriot, with a good bullet I can't see how the 308 wouldn't be a dandy elk rifle.

04 December 2005, 19:35

naja302

quote:
maybe if you are hunting under 50 yards with a 180 north fork, tsx or nos-par...in other words...not worth the risk...use a bullet-cart combo to go through heavy bone and keep truck'n

The 308 is pleanty sufficient for elk and the beauty of it is that you DON'T need premium bullets to get penetration. Any cheap ass 180 grain bullet will do the job on an elk from a 308. The premium bullets are necessary to hold up and penetrate with extreme speed (magnum velocities) I cant understand why everyone says: yes this cartridge is ok with a good bullet. A premium bullet will not enhance the performance of a 308 even a little bit with 180's, and I would venture to say that a 308 with soft 180's would outpenetrate a 300 weatherby or RUM etc. with the same bullet at 50 yards.

04 December 2005, 19:44

John G

Absolutely yes, the .308 is fine for elk. My sons and I have used the .308 for elk and moose and have not had a problem bringing them down in short order. We have used the 180-gr. Partition bullet, but I would have no qualms using other tough bullets in 165- and 180-gr weights. It's bullet placement and bullet construction that matter.

04 December 2005, 20:00

fredj338

If it's all I had I would certainly hunt elk w/ a .308, using proper bullets & keeping the range under 300yds. You can't equate the killing ability of a bullet/cart. on 250# hogs vs 700-800# elk. Bigger is always better if you can shoot bigger. In timber & would want a 180grNP, for open country, a 165grNP would suite me fine.

04 December 2005, 20:12

Paul Tunkis

A 308 works just fine. If you want to feel a bit more confidence then I'd suggest using 180 Nosler Partitions. Put one in the heart lung area and you will have a dead elk period at any reasonable range.

You are a hell of a lot better off with a 308 that you can shoot accurately, because you can shoot it for fun, than a 300 RUM that kicks like hell and you never practice with.

04 December 2005, 20:40

AnotherAZWriter

If there is a tougher animal alive than an elk, it lives in Africa. They are really tough.

All of my elk have been shot with a .338 Win Mag, but I have shot four red stag with a .308 Win - shooting Nosler BTs, no less. Have had no problems with it.

I have also shot 5 black bears with the .308. Only time I had a problem was a frontal shot using (I think) a 165 gr Hornady SP.

And after an issue in Tanzania, I am now going to be a member of the premium bullet for just about everything bigger than a deer.

The velocity analogy that Mike D gives is one I use all the time. It is especially revealing when you use it to compare wind drift. For example, the wind drift of a .308 Win is the same at 615 as a RUM at 700. So if you are comfortable with the wind at 700 with a RUM, why not a .308 at 615? Just an analogy, no need to divert the thread to a long range shooting debate.

04 December 2005, 22:32

Cpt. Jack

Your question was about being "comfortable" with a .308 for elk. I'm not, so I'll write the dissenting opinion on this one so you'll have at least one differing view. My one experience with the .308 on elk was a spike bull at about 80 yards, Win. Mod. 70 Featherweight, 180 grain Nosler Partition.

First shot was broadside, lower chest, just behind the front leg. He showed no reaction whatever, other than quickly looking around. Second shot was placed exactly in the same spot as the first...still no reaction at all!

By now I was almost sure I was missing...questioning if my scope had come loose, etc. Couldn't believe I could possibly have missed 2 shots broadside as such close range. He then began to walk off as if nothing had happened. I chambered another round, and fired. Last shot was aimed same as the first 2, but this time he was quartering away. He continued walking away after the last shot, apparently unconcerned.

I was stunned...how could I have missed 3 easy shots, and why was he acting so casual about it with all the gunfire? I was preparing to chamber yet another round when finally, he stumbled slightly, then stopped and slowly went down.

Field dressing showed all three hits had impacted within about a 6 inch circle, exactly where they were aimed. Two shots went clear thu and both of them went thru both lungs. One bullet (I think the last shot) was found in the off side shoulder.

Yes, the .308 worked, the Noslers worked, the shot placement was correct and I went home with my bull...so I certainly can't complain about the end result. However, the fact that he was so unimpressed with being hit twice thru the chest that he simply started walking off as if nothing had happened, needing a 3rd shot to put him down, left me less than comfortable with the .308's performance on elk.

Yes, elk are tough and can't always, or even usually be expected to just collapse in place when hit with a well placed shot thru the lungs. None-the-less, I had the clear feeling I wasn't using enough gun. This all occured about 20 years ago. The entire episode caused me to switch to the .338 as my primary elk rifle, and I can say that in my experience since then, given good shot placement, the .338 kills elk with considerably more authority than the .308.

While most of the other responders to this post feel differently, and while the .308 will do the job, it will never be high on my list of choices as an elk caliber.

04 December 2005, 22:42

Brad

Capt Jack, that's how elk act. I don't worry about it. The elk died, right?

If you want a visible reaction the best rounds start at 338 WM and go up from there. I'm of the opinion they really don't kill elk much if any better but they "generally" will let you know if they're hit. An elk punched in the boiler room usully goes 5 to 50 yards and tips over no matter what it's hit with, 25-06 to 340 Wby.

04 December 2005, 23:00

Jarrod

quote:
Originally posted by Cpt. Jack:
Your question was about being "comfortable" with a .308 for elk. I'm not, so I'll write the dissenting opinion on this one so you'll have at least one differing view. My one experience with the .308 on elk was a spike bull at about 80 yards, Win. Mod. 70 Featherweight, 180 grain Nosler Partition.

First shot was broadside, lower chest, just behind the front leg. He showed no reaction whatever, other than quickly looking around. Second shot was placed exactly in the same spot as the first...still no reaction at all!

By now I was almost sure I was missing...questioning if my scope had come loose, etc. Couldn't believe I could possibly have missed 2 shots broadside as such close range. He then began to walk off as if nothing had happened. I chambered another round, and fired. Last shot was aimed same as the first 2, but this time he was quartering away. He continued walking away after the last shot, apparently unconcerned.

I was stunned...how could I have missed 3 easy shots, and why was he acting so casual about it with all the gunfire? I was preparing to chamber yet another round when finally, he stumbled slightly, then stopped and slowly went down.

Field dressing showed all three hits had impacted within about a 6 inch circle, exactly where they were aimed. Two shots went clear thu and both of them went thru both lungs. One bullet (I think the last shot) was found in the off side shoulder.

Yes, the .308 worked, the Noslers worked, the shot placement was correct and I went home with my bull...so I certainly can't complain about the end result. However, the fact that he was so unimpressed with being hit twice thru the chest that he simply started walking off as if nothing had happened, needing a 3rd shot to put him down, left me less than comfortable with the .308's performance on elk.

Yes, elk are tough and can't always, or even usually be expected to just collapse in place when hit with a well placed shot thru the lungs. None-the-less, I had the clear feeling I wasn't using enough gun. This all occured about 20 years ago. The entire episode caused me to switch to the .338 as my primary elk rifle, and I can say that in my experience since then, given good shot placement, the .338 kills elk with considerably more authority than the .308.

While most of the other responders to this post feel differently, and while the .308 will do the job, it will never be high on my list of choices as an elk caliber.

If all three of your shots were where you say they were then I doubt that you needed the other 2 shots. I would say he was dead with the 1st shot he probably just didnt know it yet. But I would of did the same thing I would of kept shooting too if he didnt show any reaction.

04 December 2005, 23:10

<allen day>

If all I owned was a 308 Win., I'd surely not stay at home during elk season. What I would do is load it with 180 gr. Nosler Partitions, zero for 200 yds., and go hunting.

My great uncle hunted with a Model 99 Savage in 300 Savage for fifty years (I own his old rifle now), and he almost always came home with a bull, even though 'most all of them were taken at under 150 yds. Even so, his elk went down very well, and without fuss.

A good shot with the more potent 308 Win. should do at least as well, especially if good premium bullets are employed........

AD

04 December 2005, 23:17

kutenay

I was born and raised and have worked in the bush in some of the finest Elk country on this planet; I have been "in at the kill" of many Elk, Moose, Grizzlies and so forth. The .308, the .30-06, the .270 and the .280 are all cartridges I own fine rifles for, handload for and have killed B.C. game with as have a number of my friends. IMHO, these are ALL perfectly adequate Elk catridges, especially with heavy for caliber premium bullets and I prefer them to the extra kick and blast of smallbore and .300 Mags.....baes on owning, shooting and hunting with these rounds as well.

There IS a greater effect on game with .338-250 premium bullets, although I do not think that the lighter .338 bullets give this same whallop. I prefer it in Elk country because we are restricted to 6 point bulls in B.C. and our Grizzly problem right now is getting very serious. To deal with an aggressive Grizzly, based on the roughly 20 I have been involved with, I think the bigger rifle is definitely superior....IF you can shoot it quickly and accurately.

As to the behaviour of the large Spike mentioned, I have had large, trophy bulls take TWO .338-250 NPs in exactly the same spot and calmly wander off as though going for a beer at the local pub. Many people will say that a bullet through the lungs will drop an Elk right now, that is not true, the buggers are damned hard to knock down quickly with anything and only a CNS shot will do this consistently.

I try to shoot Elk right above the heart to rupture the aorta, this shot seems to kill softskinned game more quickly than anything except the brain shot. This is not always that easy as the 6 pointers NEVER seem to come out of the thick stuff and take it like a man. So, while this makes me prefer the .338 and some of my quite experienced buddies use .375s and one even used a .416, I have and would use the .308 and may do this more as I get older and rifles get heavier.

Actually, most of us carried .308s, .30-06s and .303s when slash burning/cone picking/treeplanting in the early fall Moose season and shot Moose, bang, flop, dead with one shot. Moose are easier to kill than Elk, but, even a Shiras ssp. are BIG animals and the .308 worked just fine.

04 December 2005, 23:25

M1Tanker

Cpt.Jack,
Welcome to the world of elk hunting. What happened to you is very very common with elk regardless of caliber. I have witnessed the exact same thing happen on several occasions with calibers ranging from 270 to 375 H&H. They were all dead but just didnt know it. And they always seemed to make it those last few steps into the canyon bottoms or heavy deadfall timber that is so hard to recover them. Because of the situation you encountered I always go for a front shoulder shot and anchor them on the spot. The couple pounds of meat I loose is a small price to pay compared to getting them out of some of the places they manage to get to before dying,

What happened with your elk is just part of elk hunting, regardless of what caliber you choose. Chances are you would have had the exact same thing happen with a 338WM.

05 December 2005, 00:34

phurley5

I have taken Elk with three different .300 Win mags, one with a .338 Lapua, and several with a .340 Wby and .358 STA. If the .308 were all I had to hunt with I would certainly not hesitate taking it Elk hunting, in fact the number one head in Boone and Crockett was taken with a .308, however I much prefer the larger chamberings and larger bullets. I have an old Elk hunting buddy that hunts exclusively with a .270 Winchester and always gets his Elk. My present perfect Elk rifle is a .358 STA with a 270 grain North Fork bullet at 2900 fps, when it hits, something happens.

Good shooting.