Let's look at it this way:

The baby-boomer generation grew up with the 300 Win Mag. as their #1 Big Game cartridge. It is commonly found in many places throughout the world- mainly as a result of it's widespread chambering in factory rifles, a 41 year history and it's effectiveness on game.

Fast-forward 15 years from now, realizing that in the past few years many of the younger generation hunters are buying their first magnum rifles in .300 WSM. Not only that, but older generation hunters are too- for lighter, easier to carry rifles. Further, the fastest-selling custom chambering is...guess what? The 300 WSM (Source: Bansner).

Now, look at Federal Factory loadings: The 300 WSM is listed in 9 different loads, with more to come in 2005-06! This is a big deal considering that a 41 year old 300 WM has only 15 Federal loads to it's credit.

So, what say you? 15 years from now, will the 300 WM still be the #1 .30 cal magnum for Big Game or will it be the .300WSM ???

I say probably...IMHO of course.

Some never thought the 300WM would replace the 300H-H and look at where we are. I call the 300WSM the next logical evolution...

Nothing wrong with any of 'em, it all comes down to the properties of the bullet leaving the bore, but face it, as a society we are enamored with new stuff!

I do not think so. I would not consider a 300WSM. I think the 300WinMAG is here to stay and still be #1 fifteen years from now. This is just my opinion.

I doubt it, because the factors that resulted in the .300 Win.Mag. winning out over the .300H&H in this country do not exist today.

• the .300 Win. Mag. was a 'home grown' product; the .300 H&H was 'foreign-born'
• far more companies chambered for the .300 Win. Mag. than for the .300H&H, which required a longer action
• ballistically, the .300 Win.Mag. equaled the .300H&H's; the .300WSM does not quite equal the .300 Win. Mag., especially with heavy bullets
• today, chronographs are more widely available permitting savvy gun owners to verify manufacturer's claims
• handloading techniques and component availability are superior today, allowing handloaders to improve on factory ballistics with the .300 Win. Mag.; the .300WSM is maxed out already
• selling 'shorter and fatter' as 'better' is much harder than selling 'bigger and longer'
• specious claims of reduced recoil with the WSMs have not fooled anyone with an ounce of reason (elementary physics dictates that burning the same amount of powder to propel a bullet of equal weight in rifles weighing the same will result in equal amounts of recoil)

George

I hope not. I do not like the short fat cartridges, yet. I see the short fat as a fad along the lines of the 7x57, the .264 Win Mag, the .260, the .257 Roberts.

I prefer the .300 win mag too.

The way I see it the 300WSM cartridge fits squarely between the 300 Win Mag and the 30 06 SPRG in performance. And it is not as if that was a niche that was beckoning to be filled.

The 300WSM has the same short neck which causes problems loading bullets heavier than 200grains in a 300 Win Mag.

Of the new Fat Kids on the block, I am predicting a far more enthusiatic acceptance of the 270WSM.

Rewind 23 years. I purchased 200 Nosler 180 gr. second grade partitions. I did all my load development and sight ins with my brand new 300 Win and killed exactly 13 elk with $14 of bullets (74.0 gr. H4831). The quality of the bullets or the round is not the issue. Will someone make an action to better feed the round?
Or better yet? In 15 years will we still have our rifles and game to hunt? I think the 30-06 will replace both.

I own way too many rifles, but I have developed a sense of value. If I could step back 20 years I would purchase a (one) pre-64 M-70 06 or 270 and not look back. I would concentrate on my hunting skills and not BS.

quote:

---

Originally by CanadianLefty:
The baby-boomer generation grew up with the 300 Win Mag. as their #1 Big Game cartridge.

---

Sorry, this baby-boomer grew up with the 338WinMag as my #1 Big Game cartridge.

IMHO both the 300WinMag and 300WSM don't have enough over the venerable 30-06 to be greatly advantageous. I would quickly take a 300RUM over BOTH the 300WinMag and 300WSM if I was wanting to step up to a .308 caliber magnum.

EKM

I think the 300 WSM is here to stay, but I don't think it will replace the 300 WM. Not only does the 300 WM have a "head start", it has proven itself in target competition as well as the game fields and can use heavier bullets more efficiently. I think the WSM will survive because there are those who want the lightest rifle available for hunting and tend to choose the lightest and shortest action they can buy. Both are good rounds, but most of the WSM's are in rifles too light for comfortable shooting. I personaly would just as soon have a 30/06, being the "retro" (and "baby boomer") I am. Extra velocity and range over the "standard" sells guns, especially if it appears there is a "free lunch" (less recoil) thrown in even if it's not true. Having a multitude of choises to do the same job is not a bad thing. While I think the WSM will survive the "cut", I don't think we will see it make the #1 slot among the 300 magnums. IMHO - Mags

No.

I don't think so. It's got a solid nitch in the hunting world. It may have reduced sales over time but the elimination of the round will not occur. Look at the .375H&H. Several "improved" cartridges have been produced in this caliber but didn't bump it into obscurity.

I think they will both be going strong. I would not bet however that something else won't overshadow both of them. I look for a cartridge that will launch the 180 grain bullet at 4000 feet per second. This is mainly because of the Bionic big game that we have now. Rifles that used to kill these beasts quite nicely, like the 30-40 krag, 300 Savage, and 7X57 dare not be mentioned as big game rifles.

The new sales of 300WSM are beating the 300WM by a wide margin...

Still, it's not as if one of the most popular cartridges in North america is just going to go away

I agree with what George S posted.

In addition not everyone wants a short action.

What might happen is that Winchester will bring out a shorened 300 Ultra, basically a 300 Dakota and that will be the long action cartridge.

A 300 "Win Ultra" at a case lenght of 2.5" I think would do well and compared to the 300 WSM would be sort of like 308 and 30/06

The number of 300 Wbys out there, and in rifles that are not Mark V Weatherbys, would seen to indicate that many shooters are OK at that level of power, recoil and blast while the 300 Rem Ultra goes a bit far.

I wonder how well the 300 Ultra is selling. There are a lot of them on the forums but that might not be a reflection of the "real world"

Mike

Fast-forward 15yrs- will 300WSM displace 300 WM?

No

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike375:

What might happen is that Winchester will bring out a shorened 300 Ultra, basically a 300 Dakota and that will be the long action cartridge.

A 300 "Win Ultra" at a case lenght of 2.5" I think would do well and compared to the 300 WSM would be sort of like 308 and 30/06

The number of 300 Wbys out there, and in rifles that are not Mark V Weatherbys, would seen to indicate that many shooters are OK at that level of power, recoil and blast while the 300 Rem Ultra goes a bit far.

I wonder how well the 300 Ultra is selling. There are a lot of them on the forums but that might not be a reflection of the "real world"

Mike

---

I hope this happens. It would be similar to the .30 Newton.

All I know is, the .300 Win. Mag. has been very good to me and is my favorite cartridge. I've taken well over 100 big game animals with it from Alaska to East Africa, and everything from Dall's sheep to Cape buffalo.

I've tested 8 different .300 WSMs so far, and I still prefer the 1963 .300 Win. Mag. Fifteen years from now, I'll STILL be hunting with the .300 Win. Mag., regardless of what anyone else is using........

AD

The WSM is not going to displace the old .300 . But I think what you will see is alot of new hunters that were going to pick a cartridge somwhere from .270 to .300 Winchester for most of their hunting may pick the .30 WSM . Ballistically , it does sit right in the middle of the pack at a good spot .

I've also wanted to see a line of 2.5 inch case "ultras" , but whether they would sell enough units to be viable is anyone's guess . The field is getting mighty crowded these days.....

As someone else mentioned briefly, I wouldn't be surprised to see the .30-06 start to take a larger share of the full-sized .30 caliber market. After all, next year is its centenary so there will be a lot of nostalgia-inspired sales, and it continues to be the standard by which all other .30's are measured.

The availability of the "light magnum" enhanced velocity loadings also makes it a strong competitor for the larger cartridges, and everyone admits if it can be done with a .30 caliber, the .30-06 can do it. Loaded to similar pressures, the .300 Winchester outpaces the '06 by about 200 fps, and the .300 WSM by only 100 fps, so what's the big fuss? Besides, you can get two more shots in most '06 magazines compared to WSM magazines. Which would you rather have in a dicey situation: three shots and an extra 100 fps, or 5 shots without the extra velocity ? I thought so .

In 15 years a variety of smaller cases using sabots will out gun everything. If you like a 30 cal 180 gr bullet at 3300 fps neck up a 300 Win or WSM to .375 and use a sabot. These will have 30% less recoil than a 300 RUM and shoot plated bullets making the rounds LESS expensive than today. BCs will be higher because the shape and "bearing surface" will not be compromised to fit the bore and give a good seal. Electronic ignition, for those that choose it, will allow primers to be seated in the base of the sabot igniting the propellant from the front adding consistency, efficiency and doing away with the primer pocket and flash hole...more cost savings.

Oh...and one swipe with a sabot solvent and your bbl is super clean. Since the need for overbore expansion ratios will be eliminated, bbls will last longer than their owners.

The sabot has been around forever (longer than smokeless powder, anyway). The sabot is useful in smoothbores and frontloaders, but without the special "shotguns only" restrictions and special muzzle-loader seasons, the sabot would have long since been forgotten. Remember what a great success the Remington "Accelerators" in .30-30 and .30-06 were? Me too.

As to the myth of "frontal ignition", it may have some relavence for certain sexual aides , but has been disproven over and over again as it relates to interior ballistics.

Since its introduction the 308 Win has thrived on an unprecedentd scale, and yet the only place it had "displaced" the 06 is with uncle sam. The two have had an equally succesfull co-existence. The 300 WM is not going to go away. People will keep coming back to it like many other cartridges that have been equally succesfull.

Stone creek. You nailed that one!!!

No....I feel the .300 wsm may slip by the way side.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
The sabot has been around forever (longer than smokeless powder, anyway). The sabot is useful in smoothbores and frontloaders, but without the special "shotguns only" restrictions and special muzzle-loader seasons, the sabot would have long since been forgotten. Remember what a great success the Remington "Accelerators" in .30-30 and .30-06 were? Me too.

As to the myth of "frontal ignition", it may have some relavence for certain sexual aides , but has been disproven over and over again as it relates to interior ballistics.

---

Sorry, but you are mistaken about the utility of sabots in modern high-pressure rifles. The remington accelerators you mention are classic examples of an application that does NOT work well, since the bullets are far too light. There are just no propellants available that can provide an efficient pressure curve pushing a 55 grain projectile out of a 30 caliber tube. Shoot a 120 gr 6.5mm bullet out of an '06 at 3350 fps and you will be using 56 or 57 grs of R15 or Varget...right off the shelf. This duplicates the 264 win Mag, which needs 40% more powder and will burn up your barrel.

Not only do you get a soft kicking 264 Win Mag, but a 22 inch bbl AND all of the traditional '06 loads as well, from 1 rifle.

Oh heck, lets use a 338-06 case and shoot a 150 gr 270 bullet at 3300 fps and a 180 gr .308 at 3000 fps. Then you also have all of 338 bullets from 160 to 300 grs. Does that rifle sound useful? No? Substitute a 338 Win Mag case and bump everything up 300 fps - now you have a 7MM RUM, a 300 RUM and a 338. Safe, consistent pressures, 24 inch bbl, excellent bbl life and fine accuracy.

The trick with sabots is to use heavy enough bullets so that you get sane velocities at max pressure while keeping them thinenough that they have some of the characteristics of a patch.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
As someone else mentioned briefly, I wouldn't be surprised to see the .30-06 start to take a larger share of the full-sized .30 caliber market. After all, next year is its centenary so there will be a lot of nostalgia-inspired sales, and it continues to be the standard by which all other .30's are measured.

The availability of the "light magnum" enhanced velocity loadings also makes it a strong competitor for the larger cartridges, and everyone admits if it can be done with a .30 caliber, the .30-06 can do it. Loaded to similar pressures, the .300 Winchester outpaces the '06 by about 200 fps, and the .300 WSM by only 100 fps, so what's the big fuss? Besides, you can get two more shots in most '06 magazines compared to WSM magazines. Which would you rather have in a dicey situation: three shots and an extra 100 fps, or 5 shots without the extra velocity ? I thought so .

---

I don't believe in multiple shots at one animal and having more than three is not necessary. I bought a new Remington 300WM even though the 300 WSM was available. My friend bought a Winchester 300WSM it shoots as good as my Remington he shot two deer with it during Regular season I shot two deer during Regular season. I just can’t see any advantage in having the 300WSM over the 300WM, but that is only my opinion.

My best use of a sabot (of sorts) has been two raps of "bond pager" shrunk and lubed on a 180gr. .308 round. Workes really well in a .318 bore "drilling" driven at 2500fps. Good info Sabot and Stonecreek. Interesting too, how more modern loadings (light magnum et al) in the 30/06 are looking more and more like the 300 H&H data of old. Mags

To answer your question - No............

Fifteen years ago if asked me what does the 300 win mag give you that the 06 doesn't, I would have said extra range. At close distance the problem used to be finding a bullet that would hold up to close range impacts on game without falling apart. I used Nosler partitions knowing full well that the front end of that bullet was going to come apart almost on impact especially on a shoulder shot, but at least the base would go on through. Great bullet for broadside shots through the ribs. Inside those close ranges an 06 would have done just as well (its' the same bullet) but might have done even better at the slower velocity by not putting the bullet under the greater stress of the high velocity impact. With todays modern bonded bullets I would say the 300 win mag gives me greater range and greater impact and penitration with a bigger wound channel.

Just for the record, comparing 'light mag' loads to the 'XYZ OF OLD' is quite unfair.

If one is to compare the 'light mag' loads in an '06, it is only fair to compare them to the 'heavy mag' (as Hornady calls them) loads of the 300WM.

SURPRISE...the WM still leads by 200+ fps in that comparison, and it is actually an apples-apples comparison. Same goes with handloading each...

Basically this is the advantage gained by the WSM's...modern powders and pressures in a smaller case catching up to old powders and lower pressures.

That's the oldest slight-of-hand trick on the forums, and you're right, in a straight apples-to-apples comparison, the .300 Win. Mag. STILL beats the '06 by 200-300 fps. with bullets of the same weight.

AD

quote:

---

will the 300 WM still be the #1 .30 cal magnum for Big Game?

---

I am still shooting the 300 H + H.

I like to add the reliability factor or the lack there off, into the discussion. Two gunsmiths in town keep getting WSM series back with the request to fix feeding problems. Seems they work most of the time but not all the time.
Fault I was told lies with the cartridge design and the actions not properly tuned for it.
Cartrige too fat too short with too sharp a shoulder making for a bad combo.
The short fat designs are probably great in target rifles being loaded single shot.
In a hunting rifle we demand reliable feeding.
Until the feeding glitches are fixed 100%, I do not see myself buying one.

I don’t know if the 300WSM will replace the 300WM but I can tell you this. The biggest advantage that the WSM-ags have is the fact that they are short fat mag cases WITHOUT belts !! Non-belted cases are far more accurate than belted cases because of how they seat in the chamber.
As the newer powders have come out they have been developed to burn faster and be more efficient in the short fat cases. Note how the bench shooters shoot the PPC cases.
When the .308 replaced the 30.06 in the military we saw all of the .06 records at Camp Perry Nationals fall. The .308 is just more accurate than the 30.06.
I think the 300WSM will turn out to be the most accurate 30cal cartridge ever developed. The development in powders, bullets and cases are all going that way.
With today’s modern synthetic stocked, pillar bedded, fluted floating barrels, or carbon barrels you will see all the new cartridge development from all directions go to the short fat cases regardless of caliber.
The belts have got to go- they just can’t compete in accuracy to the new cases.

For the record- I shoot a 30.06. I really like this rifle but if I was going to replace it, it would be with a 300WSM. If I needed more rifle than the 300WSM it will be a .375HH

I'll give you another example.
The .338 Lapua Mag was developed to be the most efficient case for the .338. It was specifically developed as a sniper cartridge. You will note the lack of a belt on the cartridge.
If I was buying a .338 it would the Lapua and not the .338WM
Belted cases are history....

I can tell you haven't had much experience with belted magnums. That old anti-belt argument is largely nonsense.

AD

"Belted cases are history." Based on what data? If you worry about a belt on your cartridge, well frankly you don't have a good working knowledge of what belts do or don't do. They are in all reality "transparent" to the cartridge's performance or feeding characteristics. IF a rifle doesn't feed, it's a problem with the rifle's feeding box geometry. Exatly what does the 300 WDM bring to the table over the belted 300s? it's certainly not velocity, the jury's stil out on accuracy, albeit I just don't see how one can get more accurate than the current belted 300s. About the only advantage I can think of (and it's a small one bordering on the anal) is if you are building a very light rifle, the WSM's shorter action offers a slight weight advantage. Finally, when it comes to feeding problems, the WSMs are not wuite there yet.
Will there be a "niche" created for them? probably, but to say the belted cartridges are history is jumping the gun a bit. jorge

I don't understand why anyone compares a .300 WSM to a .300 WIN anyway - it isn't about the cartridge, it is about the rifle.

If you get a short action rifle, the .300 WSM brings you into the same league (I didn't say beats) as the .300 WM. If you want a long action, I can't see why you would want a .300 WSM.

I personally like the short mags in short actios, but if I go with a long action, I go with a RUM.

The one thing I don't like about the short mags is that they seem to feed kinda stiff. The longer fats (RUMs) don't seem to do so.

Anyone who gets THAT worked up over a half-inch short bolt-throw and a couple of ounces less rifle weight must really be in the habit of pole valuting over mouse turds and stirring up tidal waves in tin cups.

The .300 WSMs that I've tested have provided extremely sluggish feeding and reduced magazine capacity, and (I'm being generous here) .300 H&H ballistics with vastly inferior feeding, especially compared to that vintage-1925 cartridge. Comparing those two rounds would lead me to choose the .300 H&H every time. The .300 WSM also leaves about 100 fps. on the table to a properly loaded .300 Winchester, and inferior feeding to it as well. The claim that the .300 WSM is the "ballistic equal" to the .300 Win. Mag. is an outright distortion of the truth. My imagination simply isn't colorful enough to make me run out and latch onto the WSM version while foresaking the better-designed belted .300s, I'm afraid.

This anti-belt mumbo-jumbo is a rather pathetic joke. Belted cartridges can and do shoot just as well as anything else, and after nearly thirty years of shooting belted cartridges (many thousands of rounds) and rather extensive hunting with same, I have yet to see exactly what the big problem with belts is.

But then maybe my lack of problems with belts indicated that I've been unwittingly doing something wrong for the last three decades..........

AD

Day
then why doesn't the military use belted cases??