quote:

I don't know who's right or who's wrong but I wouldn't want to hunt with any of y'all

quote:

As an estimated 375lb. individual I don't think he was fit and capable of finding an elk in the wild, on his own.

Is that dresed???

Here are some answers to what a few of you have been saying about the hunters.
1: We are all experience hunters and have been on guided and semi-guided hunts before.
2: About the Casino. we were disgusted with the whole situation and needed a brake. The casino trip was midway into the hunt.
3: The weight remark. He is excellent shape and not 375#. He walked more the 10 miles a day through the bush and timbers on public land, as most of use did.
Understand this, we are not pissed because no one shot a bull and that six of nine hunters never saw any Elk. The problem is that we were told before the hunt numerious things regarding this hunt ( as mentioned in prior post.)that was not happening and was deceiving. I will repeat one,we were not told that we were to be hunting public land. I don't think that any of you guys would have been satisfied with this hunt as a guided or semi-guide hunt for the amount of money we each spent. If I wanted to hunt public land I would have stayed in a Hotel and hunt on my own, for a fraction of the cost.
Could this have happened because Mike had a film crew comming in when we left and that he didn't post/or tell us because he wanted the film crew to have all the opportunities to make him and OMO look good????

quote:

Is that dresed???

God, I hope so!!

I would just like to add to this thread as I was a fully guided hunter on this trip. First off, the day we got to camp we see the outfitter driving away from camp and says he will be back in 4-5 hours. He says go relax and be quiet there are elk in the field behind us. So we do as such, we go see the Elk in the field below and everyone is getting excited. Now the outfitter never left anyone in charge to tell us where to sleep and get our stuff unpacked. So since he was unavailable and the brother-in-law was lost in space, we decided to take over whatever RV's he had. Next morning (Opening Day) 2 of us go out with his other guide that has never killed or hunted Elk a day in his life. When we get to our destination one of us had to walk in the dark (Not Guided) up a steep hill or hills to a tree stand. All the oufitter said was follow the Tire Tracks. This took about a good 15 minutes to get to this stand, maybe even more depending on how quick you are. I mean how are you suppose to find something you never have been too in the dark with no guide. The other guided hunter was walked to his stand and the outfitter couldn't even find the proper tree to sit in, which took a good 15 minutes to find. Now, one of us saw Elk immediately when walking up to there tree stand. At that moment, I would assume it would become a spot and stalk. Especially for a inexperienced Elk Hunter. Mike's response was you should of just ran into the group of Elk found a bull and shot it. I mean this is something that if the outfitter was with us could have informed us of. The other hunter sat for 12 hours in the same tree (30 Feet up) and saw one Cow Elk in the last half hour of light, but was only visible for 5 minutes. We heard plenty of shots that were actually very close to our stands. Now later on the week, when walking the so called private leased property I noticed how many people actually were hunting this property. As the property was not posted except for a few signs when we walked in. Deception maybe or just the outfitter not doing its job to inform others not to be on his property. Anyway, the second day of the hunt was much of the same, and one of us saw a cow with an calf and some blacktail deer. In which, everyone in camp pretty much saw blacktail deer everywhere. Third day again, put in a tree stand and saw two hunters on private property (One at about 8am and the other at 830am). Both had approached me and asked why I was stand hunting as they do not do this in Washington as it is ineffective. They also said the outfitter should know better. Now I am a believer in stand hunting, however it is a little discouraging to hear when your suppose to be guided. Also, keep in mind that these guided stands were not rifle stands they were archery stands. I mean if the animal came out you pretty much could of threw a saddle on them and rode them around. Thats cool, but there were people who were promised blinds/stands with 100-300 yards shots. This was not accomadated. Anyway, as the week progressed I was informed to still hunt instead of actually sitting in the stand. This tells me the lack of confidence he has in his stands. At this point I decided to just go out with my cousin and another member of the party to do what the locals do and drive around glassing clear cuts and dark timber. I actually had the oppurtunity to see an Elk (Not sure what it was) and ran after it in the brush. This was exciting, but just because I was doing something I never did before.

Also, I raised the question "How does this trip qualify as a guided hunt, when all we are doing is sitting in tree stands over apples?" No answer was giving.

Now Overall I had a good time because I made the best of it. Hunting is hunting and not called killing for a reason. However, I do think that Mike and his so called service did not provide what was promised. I mean he only knew where ONE HEARD OF ELK was on his property (Not the leased property). He also said that the reason why he put us in the tree stands was because there was a huge 5x5 (Which he only knew about from someone else who told him was around).

Now, I have been hunting for about 14 years now and just the lack of effort by the outfitter amazes me. I even got the luxury to talk to one of the guided hunters from the other camp and he saw NOTHING all week. So I just don't understand how you can book 16 total hunters (3 Different Camps - 11 in One, 3 in another, and 2 in the last) and get (1) Bull which wasn't even from our Camp of 11. Now we all can say maybe it was a bad season and that is highly possible, but the lack of effort from Mike wasn't there.

All the guys he had in camp who were working for him were nice guys and we had a lot of laughs, but that doesn't justify what was paid for.

Now this is from the Horses Mouth, but Mike did say the only time he gets complaints is during Rifle Season. As far as I'm concerned, if your clients are not harvesting any animals the LEAST you should be doing is showing effort. No effort was provided.

If anyone has any questions or concerns I can elaborate further.

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:
I don't know who's right or who's wrong but I wouldn't want to hunt with any of y'all

Best post in this thread.

Crl

quote:

Originally posted by unreal4500:

All the guys he had in camp who were working for him were nice guys and we had a lot of laughs, but that doesn't justify what was paid for.

I thought the only person (employee) around was the brother in law who had never hunted before. That certainly was the impression that was given by the original poster. I wonder if he really is a guide?

The tone of the above post is substantially different and probably much much closer to what really happened.

Howard, There were nine hunters in our party. A number of us talked with Mike before the hunt and some questions asked were different from the rest of us. Also there were different situations/problems encounted by the semi guided and guided hunters. There were two other hunters in our camp that felt the same way as we did about this hunt. There were five other hunters in another camp of his and one of these hunters joined our camp mid week,and he told us that his group was not happy in the hunt and how it was presented to them before the hunt.

Recommended Washington Outfitter:

Mike Jenkins and Scott Hiam; Upfront Outfitters.

Great guys. I used them in New Mexico for Oryx; they also guide Elk in NM; and Blacktail, Elk, and Mule Deer in Washington.

Harding working professional guys. I can't say enough good things about them.

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:

quote:

Originally posted by unreal4500:

All the guys he had in camp who were working for him were nice guys and we had a lot of laughs, but that doesn't justify what was paid for.

I thought the only person (employee) around was the brother in law who had never hunted before. That certainly was the impression that was given by the original poster. I wonder if he really is a guide?

The tone of the above post is substantially different and probably much much closer to what really happened.

Howard. The brother in law was there when we arrived. He took Mike's son hunting on opening day and then left until the last day when he once again took Mike's son hunting. The only guide there besides Mike was "Doug Stoner" or as we called him Stoner Doug. There was the camp cook who also had just started with Mike that week. The camp cook was a nice guy and did his job well.
My only hope for this thread is that people that have booked with Olympic Mountain Outfitters find out what kind of a poor job Mike actually does and they go into this hunt fully aware. Unfortunately for our group this type of information was not found out before hand. People will make up their own minds if they want to hunt with Olympic Mountain Outfitters but at least they will be aware of what their money buys. Many people have to save up a long time for such a hunt and this type of lack of service amounts to robbery. It is unfortunate that Outfitters in Washington are not regulated or licensed by the Department of Fish and Wildlife or any other governing body. All that is required in Washington is a business license.

Here's what I think he said she said. Get all 9 guys to submit letters to the state or Outfitter Association . Post the results when it is finished.

quote:

Originally posted by Constructoman:
It is unfortunate that Outfitters in Washington are not regulated or licensed by the Department of Fish and Wildlife or any other governing body. All that is required in Washington is a business license.

Oh good grief, then stay in Canada with big brother! Do you think a government issued piece of paper would prevent such behavior. Even better don't accept FREE hunts where you admittedly did no research.

I have no doubts that the hunt was less then it should have been. I also have no doubts that you used deliberately inflammatory words and misrepresented things to make the experience look worse then it really was.

Holy mackerel!!! He said she said is right!

Let me give you an interesting perspective. My name is Joe. I am a licensed outfitter in Montana where the backcountry separates the men from the boys. I have seen it all. I have also heard it all as some people think I am the greatest outfitter that ever lived and others unfortunately find out that the mountains are more than they can handle. To a few of those ones I suppose I am not. There are a few cardinal rules I go by.... all of my clients will be warm, dry, well fed, well informed, and treated with respect. Hunting is truly hunting but to show 110% effort goes a long way with hunters. To show for that I've had many unsuccessful hunters come back because they knew they got what they paid for and probably then some. On the other side of the coin I also got a not so good review one time from a hunter who said the quanity and quality of game wasn't that good. Incidentally he was the only bowhunter in camp who didn't kill a 6 point bull that week. I personally took him out and had him feet from Pope and Young bulls. Oh well!

Anyway.... I know a little about Mike's operation. As a matter of fact I walked the property and "public" (timber company) land where ol Constructo man hunted. I also remember when his group booked the hunt in Harrisburg Pa. Though Constructoman may not have been completely informed about his hunt the groups contact person was. I personally listened to several of the phone calls while attending shows after Harrisburg. I find that many time times there's alot lost between the contact person and others in the group. This is an important point because if you are not informed you cannot be prepared. In this particular case they added the hunter after a cancellation and by that time all of the questions and answers had long since been forgotten. My guess is that the recipient of the free hunt didn't ask many questions anyway. The details of his semi guided hunt are right on the Olympic Mountain website.

Another important point is that although an outfitter has many responsibilities the hunters also have a responsibility or two. A big one is to be motivated. I see a pile of red flags in this case. No gun? Even thinking of leaving a camp to go to a casino does not give me the impression that the time the hunter was afield he was focused on hunting. If one is expecting any fair chase hunt, especially for elk or deer, to be easy then one is either very inexperienced or not very realistic. The fact though is that the area of Washington where Olympic Mountain Outfitter hunts is currently one of the most productive areas in the country. When I was there I saw elk everywhere and the sign was plenty. I'd like to mention something here.... in Montana I constantly run into locals with long faces who cannot find elk. They will say "There are tracks everywhere but we haven't seen hide nor hair" They never truly follow the tracks even though I'll admit it's not always easy or even possible for them. The guys who say we do not hunt in stands here in Washington are walking around with unpunched tags right? A little common sense will tell you that there are more than one ways to skin a cat. Walking around may be a good way to get a glimpse of elk but stands are a good way to kill them. Elk hunting on Mike's properties is like a midwest deer hunt except that the success rates are higher. Animals are moving from beds to feed daily. In the case of elk this can be weekly. The sign in and around the property we are talking about here is simply unreal! Does that mean you'll see elk every day? Hell no. What realistic elk hunter with any knowledge at all would expect to see elk EVERY day? None. To go to the casino??? C'mon guys. While I'm thinking of it I'd like to mention that as soon as you step foot off of Mike's private land you are 9 miles from any gates where other hunters can access the land. If you've ever seen the rain forests of western Washington you'd know that 9 miles of jungle is a long way with plenty of other elk in between. For the record.... telling me that an inexperienced hunter in poor physical condition walked 10 miles doesn't do much for ones credibility. Also for the record.... if one were to walk slowly and quietly for 10 miles in that country without seeing an elk.... something is very wrong. In all my years of outfitting the fact of the matter is that hunter ability is usually the main factor in success. If I had 10 hunters in camp and 5 killed bulls.... then I had the same 10 hunters in camp next week, I'd bet the same ones will do the killing. Keep in mind another HUGE factor..... not everyone is willing to kill themselves to kill an animal. Some barely care as they are on vacation from life's pressures and killing to them is merely icing on the cake.

There are lots of factors in determining what one considers a successful hunt. There are also lots of different perspectives of how and why things happened on any particular hunt.

Now for the rest of my perspective of Olympic Mountain Outfitters. Next year I will be working full time with Mike. This is no small decision. This is my livliehood. Why? I have watched his operation for over 10 years. I offered to buy it a couple years ago but Mike laughed at me. I still own an outfit in Montana. The reasons for the move are many. In a nuthsell though here they are (almost in the right order): High hunter success. The area has a healthy and growing elk population, 26,500+ to be exact. People want dead elk and deer for their money. Give the people what they want right? It's the biggest factor in repeat business. Licensing. Not only is there no draw but at $430 Washington has the cheapest elk license in the country and it's over the counter. No wolves Montana and the rest of the Rocky Mountain west is having an epidemic. It's worse than most can imagine. Licenses are decreasing and game populations are crashing in some areas. What are the future hunter success rates? Try hunting over there or in Idaho, Wyoming etc. Ease of hunting I always felt bad when some really nice clients just couldn't handle the terrain and elevation. Bad for myself and my guides too because believe it or not we want you to kill game more than you do. Hunting in Washington is at only 500 feet and there are no steep hills. That means that everyone who wants to can get out there and have an equal chance at killing game. I love it! But a word of caution.... it is quiet in the forest. The elk know a foreign sound when they hear one! If you can't be quiet and you don't know how to glass ahead then you will best be served to ambush them like wary whitetails.... or pay your outfitter to put you in a position to do so. I know it's fun to explore new and different looking country but you need to resist sightseeing and hunker down sometimes.

Here's the last and best reason. I hope you're reading this Mike... To me trust is one of life's biggest issues. Do you trust your outfitter? Do you trust your employees or employer? Your guide.... your wife! I trust Mike. He is a a big happy guy, always laughing. He is a hunter to the bone and truly loves to help other people kill game. He knows how to do it too even if they aren't the best hunter; hence the stand hunting. As all outfitters he works really hard before they get there to make sure he's on top of the game. I know this because I've seen it. If you couldn't trust him you wouldn't be reading this post!!!

So now I intend to take a really good thing and with my experience make it even better. I know there are crappy outfitters out there. I've been a client at a few myself. They make legitimate ones like me mad because they make hunters skeptical of outfitters in general. After a couple of my experiences trading hunts with other outfitters from Alaska to Ohio and seeing some of the worst I don't know how a hunter can go to a sport show and pick an outfitter. For the most part though I think most are fair, hard working, and honest. The one I'm staking my reputation on sure is.

I'll run things a little differently than Mike and we will likely learn from each other. If Constructoman or anyone else would like a nice western wall tent camp with no circuit breakers he can come check out the west side of Mike's outfit which I'll be managing. Call me at 1-866-BIG-SKYS but you will be expected to show up prepared and hunt hard every day. If you need a guide or a good stand to lay low in then by all means I'd suggest spending a little more for it, especially if killing will make or break your trip.

Whatever you do or wherever you go make sure you personally talk to your outfitter and be prepared to give it hell. The original poster did neither.

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Ferraro:
I find that many time times there's alot lost between the contact person and others in the group. This is an important point because if you are not informed you cannot be prepared.

I know first hand that this happens frequently and not just about hunting. A case in point though is a do it yourself Alaska moose hunt I organized some years ago.

I properly communicated the hunt and expectations to one of my friends and he had the hunt/experience of a lifetime. I communicated the exact same hunt/experience, or so I thought, to another buddy and he to this day calls it the worst experience of his life. Thankfully we are still friends.

Did I do something wrong? Yes I did. I assumed his expectations for travel, accommodations, food, and hunting matched mine. To me it was a luxurious "roughing it" type of hunt. I was just happy to be there and more then willing to roll with the punches; to me that was part of the experience. He on the other hand had a different set of expectations that I failed to adequately discover. To him it was a poorly planned, organized and equipped "outfitted" hunt. He blames me but if there would have been an outfitter he would have got the blame.

I felt horrible because I truly wanted, and thought I was providing an awesome hunt. I blame myself. If he on the other hand would have done a better job of planning and questioning he could have gone a long ways towards helping the rest of us meet his needs and we all would have enjoyed the benefits.

Joe,

As per your post, I will agree that there was plenty of sign everywhere. More than I could have ever imagined. However, I do have a problem with the things he didn't know or should have known and his effort during the hunt. (Remember I was guided)

I was out there hunting everyday, enjoying every moment. There was also, about 7 members of the group that were really hunting hard everyday. Walking, sitting, and driving. Now the probelems I have can be corrected if the outfitter is willing to. Now you say that he has access to timber company land that no other hunters have access to unless they travel 9 miles or better. That is true if the gates were closed, but they were VERY OPEN TO EVERYONE AND ANYONE. Mike also said that we wouldn't see any hunters and he would be shocked if we seen any. We saw mulitple hunters daily, even on private property. Mike also said that the Timber company only opens the road 4 days of the year, 2 of which were Opending Day (Saturday) & Sunday. Apparently, Mike didn't know that the gates were open all the time. All that was required, was to call a number that was provided to us by ANOTHER HUNTER to have the gates opened. These other hunters were driving around like it was a major highway. Now that to me works to our advantage sometimes because it will push the Elk to you, but they should not be hunting on the private property. Mike needs to get a control of posting the LEASED property. Now if he doesn't do that, thats fine thats his business. However, then that pretty much means I don't have to pay him $4000 when I can rent a hotel room, and hunt the property or neighboring property anyway without anyone knowing. MUCH MUCH CHEAPER.

As for effort for the Semi-Guided Hunters, pointing at a Map means nothing. He should know where the heards are and put the hunters on trails. That would be Semi-Guided - Not Self Guided which this was and I witnessed first hand. Now I know you get what you pay for, but this was a total rip off for them. Hell if you want I can do what Mike did over the phone. Like he and yourself are saying, the client pays for a dry place to stay and warm meals. GREAT BUY!!!! WHAT A JOKE!!!!!

As for the effort of a guided hunter, sitting over baiting apples by myself is not a guided hunt. I mean that is what a semi-guided hunter should have or something similar. Again, Mike or his guides should know how to lure the Elk onto his leased properties like he does at his camp. If not, he should have people putting together drives to increase your success rate. Mike just didn't provide much of anything, except for food and shelter. When I think of a guided hunt, I would like to see the guide there next to me especially by mid-week if I haven't seen anything. Help me find them, that is what you have been hired to do. Sitting in camp telling stories, just doesn't cut it. Sorry if you don't agree, but I have a totally different outlook on how to approach an outfitter from the way Mike operated this. I mean he did absolutely NOTHING. I wish I could get away with ripping people off and look myself in the mirror.

Again I will repeat, I did have a good time because I LOVE HUNTING and I LOVE BEING AROUND FAMILY & GOOD FRIENDS. Thats what it's about, not the KILLING or HARVESTING of an animal. Point blank he didn't do anything that I couldn't do myself.

Ah yes, it's the client's fault. If you don't come to camp fit enough to run a 6 minute mile with full pack and rifle; if you're not an olympic rated marksman; if you're not accustomed to sleeping on the ground under a fly and eating grub that's prepared by an out of work carpenter; if more of your years are behind you rather than in front, then how can you expect the outfitter to make any adjustments for your particular needs. Despite the fact that THEY HAVE TAKEN YOUR MONEY, you can't really expect them to work around your limits and adjust to your needs.
One would think that from the constant whining by outfitters about out of shape hunters and poor shooters, they would wake up to the fact that adjustments need to be made to their operation to accomadate these less than stellar but well heeled clients.
I haven't a dog in this fight but unless outfitters atart adding to their brochures, "only fit, well practiced marksmen accepted", they need to figure out how to take 'em as they come. Especially SINCE THEY HAVE TAKEN THE MONEY.

I would not book with these guys. What am I getting for 4K?? Dropped off on a guided hunt? Are you kidding me?

I hunt with an outfit in Idaho that charges $5K for a seven day packstring hunt, with walled tents, great food, etc. Killed two bulls in two trips; going again in 2011.

The number of experienced, well traveled hunters who think Olympic Mountain Outfitters is a "good deal" are few and far between. Are there any outside of friends and family?

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
I hunt with an outfit in Idaho that charges $5K for a seven day packstring hunt, with walled tents, great food, etc. Killed two bulls in two trips; going again in 2011.

Who is your outfitter?

Joe.
I really do hope that you are able to work with Mike and teach him how to be a proper outfitter.
For your information:

1. I came to camp without any expectations.

2. I am an experienced hunter and guide. I myself and the group asked Mike for help/input to make the hunt successful. He gave us NOTHING. Shooting an elk is the ultimate goal but the group was fully aware that not everyone was going to harvest a bull.

3. Myself and everyone in the group hunted hard and in various methods. These methods may not have been the most appropriate for the game and terrain but that is where Mike should have stepped in to fulfill his role as a GUIDE.

4. I arrived at camp without a firearm since I originated out of country. There were plenty of firearms available to be used.

5. Mike was unaware that locals/people were driving logging roads and that the gates had been opened. This put a lot of pressure on the elk and Mike still did not "Guide" his hunters to productive areas.

6. One point that I cannot get over is how Mike can put 3 (three) hunters into the same ground blind. Remember these are FULLY GUIDED hunters. They sat there for a full week and did not see an elk.

You can say what you want. You can say they are the best outfitters out there.

I am saying "Buyer Beware"

Well..... I'm back. I came across a thread elsewhere that included a link to this thread. I figured I better at least make a short post.

First I owe Constructoman a big apology.

Instead of typing a big long post (I could fill pages!) I'll just say that everything he said... to my shock & amazement, was true. Mike had me fooled like any other client. He sure can talk.

I assure you Constructoman that you only know half the story. It's even worse but I won't go on. Mike & I are no longer on speaking terms. As a reputable Montana 0utfitter, and I think I speak for all legitimate outfitters, I despise the crooks who give us a bad name.

I compromised my reputation by working for him. I brought some of my guides from Montana as well as some of my repeat clients from over there. Thank God I've been in business long enough that they all know I didn't intentionally deceive them.

I cannot understand why Washington state doesn't require an outfitters exam and licensing as in Montana & most every other state. That guy would NEVER pass the test. He gets around any licensing requirements by staying on private property with all of the guided hunters. 0ther states require an outfitters license regardless of that.

I figured I owed it to everyone in Constructman's group, all of the hard working honest outfitters out there, and anyone thinking about booking a hunt to follow up on this thread.

Buyer beware!

The following is from the link posted above.


Olympic Mountain Outfitters
On April 5, 2007, Michael Vaughn signed a plea
agreement with the United States Attorney's Office,
Western District of Washington. Vaughn pled guilty
to one count of conducting unauthorized work activity
within the National Forest System (Un-permitted big
game guiding operation). Vaughn agreed to a
$2,000.00 fine and two (2) years of probation. The
probation included, no hunting and to reimburse the
United States Forest Service $1,800.00 paid to
Vaughn for the undercover black bear hunt.

Just to bump this up to the top in case anyone is looking to book an elk hunt. Maybe we can save a hunter from being taken/scammed.
Thank you Joe.

I don't want to get into the OMO dogfight but I would like to make nonresident hunters aware of a few of the dynamics of guided hunts in State of Washington. If one is expecting the type of hunt that you could find in Idaho, Montana or Wyoming the Cascades and "parts" of the blue mountains are about the only place it can happen and there are severe restrictions to the type of animal you can harvest except by permit. The Olympic Penisula has lots of ground but the access is limited because the large forest landowners keep it all behind locked gate with a small amount of lottery draw hunters allowed. (see our Hunter's Regs) The tribes don't allow any access but depending on Tribal Regs and By Treaty can hunt year-around on all unclaimed lands. i.e. goverment lands. Tribal leadership does try to establish seasons and curbs this somewhat. The Eastslope of the Cascades has elk but again access is limited by both the State, Feds and large timber holders. Again there are harvest restrictions with the exception of a permit. The ground has been heavily logged over and in some cases this has helped the elk population but again unless you can walk miles or have horses getting to the elk is tough. As you can expect any place that has access has LOTS of hunters, Blue Mountains and West/Central Washington especially.
Here in Eastern Washington we have a small elk population, lots of ground and again limited access. The Forest Service has closed many roads due to grizzly bear managment. The Large Timber Landowners again restrict access to there lands and I should clarify that restricted access does not mean no access but again walkin or horses on most of it. That sounds good to some but to the older guys (me) it gets tough and considering I engineered in some of those roads its also frustrating. The conclusion is it again forces larger amounts of hunters into smaller areas. I know this sounds like an outfitter's dream but consider, the ground has been logged extremly hard the past 10 years and brush has taken over much of it. Now we have wolves. In the 3 most NE counties the game department has admitted to at least 150 wolves, so if they are as ill-informed as the State of Idaho we probably have around 250 little effort being made to manage them. We have also not been able to bait bear or hunt bear and cougar with hounds and the populations are growing rapidly. The effect is already being seen in some areas. Again we have similar tag restrictions as the other units
There are already a number of outfitters trying to hunt this area primarily for deer and black bear. The archers seem to have the advantage. I couldn't comment to as to the good or bad with the outfitters but I do know if I am paying $2500.00-$5000.00 for a guided hunt I do not want to stay in a motel and eat resturant food, which seems to be the norm here. You do see quite a few pissed off local hunters because of the pay-for-hunt that the outfitters offer in areas that at one time allowed local hunting. I think this is a common problem anywhere you have lots of hunters, limited resouce and limited land area.
Wish I could paint a better picture but here in Washington, with a few exceptions we don't have the elk populations to hunt like you have (had) in Idaho,Montana and the other states. I think for most of us the experience of the hunt is above the kill and I don't think we can do that here.

Outstanding first-hand info bentaframe....thanks.