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| one of us |
In his reply to my thread on custom or factory rifles, Einar K. Harraldsson advised me to get a European factory rifle/scope. Being a natural devious sort, I just can't help but asking the following question(s). What is the overall best factory rifle? Is it American or European? What is the best scope? A or E? Why? In my opinion, the best factory rifle is the Remington Model 700. It combines reasonable good looks with accuracy, ruggedness , relative affordability, availability and a long track record of field success in one tidy package. In the scope department, I would choose the Leupold. Clarity, stability, ruggedness, availability, a great warranty, and track record in one package (however, they could work on the prices). Now What do U think? Good Shooting HBB | ||
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| <Ol' Sarge> |
I agree with both your selections. ------------------ | ||
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| one of us |
The ruger 77 mk2 is the toughest the savage the most accrate. But over all I have to go with the ruger. | |||
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| <Eric Leonard> |
i have 4 rem. 700s and 2 rem. model 7s and 6 leupold scopes.not a one has ever let me down. | ||
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Moderator |
I'd also go with the Ruger M77 Mk II as the overall best deal going. There are always deals on them in the $400-450 range, add a leupold M8 or VX III for $200-300 and you're set. They may not be the most accurate, but as a hunting rifle, they are more then accurate enough. The Win M70 is also an excellent hunting rifle, but by the time you add bases and rings, you're at about the price of a scoped M77. The rem 700's have alot of fans, and some strongpoints for sure, but they are not my cup of tea for a big game hunting rifle. | |||
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| one of us |
Won�t say anything about rifles, but there�s Kahles and Swarovski, and I really think they top Zeiss ( had problems with one, but even apart from that ... ). Can�t think that Leupold is better in optics than those. Good shooting! H ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
Okay, can�t keep my mouth shut: I don�t know what�s the best rifle, but Remingtons for sure they are not. Good shooting and good hunting! H ------------------ | |||
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| Administrator |
Gentlemen, I am afraid the only European factory made rifles that I like are the Sakos. Apart from them, I keep away from the rest. I just cannot understand the European pre-occupation of trying to build all sorts of crazy actions. Also, I am not too impressed with European stocks at all. In fact, I think they are an "abomination" as one of my friends from Africa once said. I will take a Remington 700, and put a Leupold scope on it. Forget all those over-priced, over size scopes that come from Europe. ------------------ www.accuratereloading.com | |||
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| one of us |
As usual, Saeed's opinions here are exactly right! | |||
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one of us |
I respectfully disagree with most of the expressed opinions. I've had and still own most brands of rifles. The only ones that didn't need tuning or accurizing of any sort and that gave custom performance right out of the box are : Sauer 202 and Blaser. Of course, they are also a lot more expensive than mass produced rifles but then, you get what you pay for. As to scopes, I consider the Leupold Vari X-III the best value for money but quality wise, my heart goes to Swarovski. ------------------ | |||
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one of us |
In terms of general quality of finish I think European rifles have the edge. I am thinking of Sauer and Heym here. Mannlichers are full of plastic which breaks as soon as you look at it. Tikka and Sako are quality rifles out of the box, esp Sako, but they are too arrogant to make a LH. Never had a US rifle other than a 10/22, but I would like to try a Mod 70 if I could find one in LH. Only ever had Schmidt & Bender, Khales and Swarovski. Type 4a reticle only. I do not favour duplex. They all work fine, and look good too. regards | |||
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| Moderator |
For deerstalking, I have say the European rifles beat the American stuff we see hands down. The quality control just seems to be that much better out of the box. Also they tend not to come with triggers set by lawyers! CZ, Tikka, Sako and Sauer offer excellent rifles for there respective price ranges...seems to me if you buy a Remchester you always have to budget that bit more to have it slicked over. Where American products win out is the sheer diversity/ selection that you can buy off the shelf pplus the aftermarket products available for them ie the extra's you can buy to customise your 10-22 for instance. Scope wise, I would say that Leupold is where good glass starts but I would be just as happy with a Meopta or S&B scope. Zeiss and Swarovski are just something else, but of course then you have to pay the extra! | |||
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one of us |
Generally I would choose an american rifle if I had to buy a brand new. Although the quality of european rifles is excellent, they are I.M.H.O. too high-tech. The stocks are mostly hog-back or Monte Carlo, which during most circumstances is quite detrimental for good shooting. The only new european rifle I would consider is the BRNO. The american rifles seem to be made for hard use in the field. Did anyone try to clean a modern Mannlicher bolt in the field? I did once and will never do it again! Scopes however, are optically better if they are from Europe. A Zeiss from Germany or a Swarowski from Austria is the top choice. And my 35 year old Carl Zeiss from eastern germany is still better than a neu Leupold - and leupold are by no means bad! Fritz K. | |||
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| Administrator |
Gentlemen, The QUALITY of European rifles is EXCELLENT. But, they are not my type of rifles. I am afraid all these new fangled inventions, like straight pull bolts, mobile receivers, ball bearing locking bolts, bolts that lock at the rear, might be the answer to someone's prayer. But, not for me. I do not like the European style stocks either. And the worst part is those extremely high scope mounts. Even you manage to get a LOW set of mounts, they are still far too high for my liking. A couple of years ago, I was hunting with a friend in Zimbabwe. He had a custom built rifle on a Dakota 76 action, chambered for the 416 Rigby. There was no way that I could have shot that rifle with any sort of accuracy. As when you look through the scope, you barely have your chin on the bloody stock. In comparison, my ow rifle, which has a classic stock of "normal" dimentions, can be picked and aimed in a second. ------------------ www.accuratereloading.com | |||
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| one of us |
HillyBillyBear, Find yourself a Pre-64 M70. If you do your homework and look in the right places you can find them in new or like new condition. IMHO(and that of many other knowledgeable riflemen) this is the best factory sporter rifle ever produced. The quality and craftsmanship is beyond reproach. I have several and all are among the best shooters I own. Without any tuning at all my 1952 vintage .257 Roberts consistently shoots .5" to .75" groups with whatever I feed it. Further my 1960 .338 with only a trigger smoothing obliges me with .75" 5 shot groups using 230 gr failsafes. Oh yea, every pre-64 I have will feed empty cases as they came from the factory. I have never had a new production rifle that will do this! Anyway, there are enough pre-64's in circulation that you could, with some effort, find one that suits your needs and wants. Get a copy of gunlist or check www.gunsamerica.com. you won't be disappointed. | |||
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| one of us |
I've always liked Mauser-type extractors and all of my big game rifles have them. But, I spent half an hour or so handling different factory rifles in a gun shop Saturday and have to admit I'm coming around on the 700. If I were going to buy a factory rifle and have it worked on (trigger job and bedding at minimum) I would get a Ruger. If I wanted to buy one and shoot it right out of the box, it would be the Remington. Triggers are a deciding factor--the Ruger factory trigger I find just impossible. The current Model 70 trigger is pretty good but there were a lot of tool marks on the bolt shrouds. John | |||
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| Moderator |
From the few examples of Pre64's I have seen, I suspect many people see them with rose coloured glasses...quite frankly the finish on the metal and woodwork was average, and the action was no smoother than a CZ. A friends very early .270 ( I want to say 1927 but I think I may be wrong) had a very clubby fore end and the action had a lot of tool marks. I would happy take my L591 Sako anyday for deer stalking...if you want CRF thats a different matter:-) As to the mounts on European rifles, that seems to be a matter of taste. I certainly don't like the high apel mounts, but nobody says you have to use them:-) Same goes for the "new fangled" actions...plenty of alternatives for those who want either a push feed or a crf...Plus don't forget that the M98 is the factory rifle! | |||
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| <allen day> |
I don't have a problem with European quality at all, but many European bolt-guns are way over engineered in my opinion. To me, the best production European bolt action is the Sako Model 75. It's simple, sound, well-made, and generally very accurate. The Johannsen Mauser 98 reproduction is wonderful, but expensive, and cannot really be classed as a production rifle. As far as American rifles are concerned, I like the action design and stock design of the Model 70 Classic Sporter LT & Super Grade the best. Remington quality has slipped a great deal over the last dozen years or so, and the fundamental action and stocked design could stand a long-overdue upgrade. It's possible that the best out-of-box performer produced in the USA may be the current Weatherby Mark V. Best scopes: Leupold's Vari-X III series, but as has been mentioned, the 50mm versions are not what you want. To be honest, the miracle "out-of-the-box" rifle does not exist. It's sort of an oxymoron. Almost all production rifles need a bit of tuning to get the most out of them, and a wise consumer will not be afraid to invest a bit of time and money in a little refinement. AD | ||
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| one of us |
While they have a reputation for good optics (perhaps more-so than deserved), traditional European scopes are heavy, bulky, and generally strange. Their variables had, until recently, magnifying reticles, making the reticle at high power blank out the target. Combined with traditional European mounts (way too high) and traditional European stocks (way too low), this created a shooter's abomination as Saeed has observed. The success of more recent European scopes lies in their adopting Americanized designs. Likewise, the shortcoming of current American scopes is in adopting European features like 50mm objectives and 30mm tubes. The more like Leupold's original Vari-X line a scope is, no matter wheather European, American, or Asian, the better adapted to real-world shooting. As for rifles, Europeans have always had quality, and so long as their designs follow the American pattern, they're generally better rifles. The great success of Sako is that it's a European rifle which started out and continues to use an American-style pattern. They suffered a brief lapse when distributed by the Garcia Corporation who made the sleek stocks and barrels fatter and cruder to meet what they mistakenly thought was American taste. In summary, combining European quality with American patterns gives you the best rifles and scopes. | |||
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| <Chipola Creek> |
Best European rifle is a Voere Titan II made in Vorrenbach, Germany. I've got one in .308 w/a Swarovski scope - the rifle action is silk smooth and groups under an inch at 100 meters. Second best is a Brno/CZ 600 in 30.06 with Nikon scope - ugly but very accurate. Best U.S. made rife: Winchester Model 94, 30-30; second best M1A1 in .308 from Springfield Armory. | ||
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| <Ozhunter> |
Hmm I'll go against the flow as European rifles are equally as available here in Australia as US made, and generally speaking prices aren't that much different, unlike you US based guys who have the advantage of your local products being so inexpensive. Here a Sako 75 Varmint SS laminate is about the same price as a Rem 700 VLS or VSSF, both rems are very expensive. The Rugers are cheaper as are the Savages. Now I look at the CZ 550 Magnum action and I can't see anything wrong with it, I have the older 602 in a classic stock and it is a beaut rifle, shoots accurately and the action is a classic square bridge magnum mauser in design. But the biggest thing on the original question is, qualified by at what level.....a safari Express Ruger out of the box is probably one of the nicest product rifles out of any country IMHO, nice wood, great 98 type magnum action, good safety and trigger and well finished.... Damn I just can't make up my mind.......I guess it depends on the type of rifle you're after. | ||
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| <1LoneWolf> |
Tough choice to made. But I don't think anything can beat a SAKO for looks "and" the ability to place a bullet where it needs to be placed. Never have I had a SAKO disappoint me. But there are a lot of fine rifles in this world. I'd be hard pressed to pick between a CZ550 and a USRAC M70 Classic. So, I'll take the SAKO and be happy. ON SCOPES! I can't make the call as to what to go for. Probably whoever has a sale on one of the top choices. Just give me a scope that is "not" an adjustable objective for hunting purposes. ------------------ [This message has been edited by 1LoneWolf (edited 09-08-2001).] | ||
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| <Wolverine> |
The only European rifle I own is a CZ 452 Lux .22LR. It's a very nice rifle. There is a such thing as a consistent out-of-the-box shooter, and it is called Savage. Then again, many don't like the trigger pull so we're back to tuning the rifle again. | ||
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| <500 AHR> |
I have owned a few European rifles. A Sauer and a Sako. I was not impressed with either. The Sako to me was not any better than a M700 (but about 50% more). The Sauer was a royal POS. I traded it off for a M70 (sucker)! The very best build bolt actions are made right here in the States, but you will pay for them. There are many excellent semi to full custom European rifles as well again you will pay. The best factory rifle right now available out of Europe for the money is a Beretta MATO. Anyway, basically the European guns (like about everything else from Europe) is all about looks. European factory rifles in my opinion are very shallow. In other words, they look good on the outside, but or no better and often worse than the American equivalent. If you want something that will shoot very well and take a beating get any of the big american rifles and customize it with the money you save over the European junk. To put it another way (for any car guys out there) the european factory rifles for the most part are ALL SHOW AND NO GO!!! Todd E | ||
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| <R. A. Berry> |
My picks for factory rifles: Short Magnum (up to .458 Win.): Ruger Mark II Model 77 H&H or RUM: Winchester Model 70 Classic H&H or Rigby: CZ 550 Magnum All three are a lot of bang for the buck. Good out of the box, sometimes great. All three can be made great through gunsmithing. ------------------ | ||
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one of us |
Saeed, I'm with you on the Remington idea. A Model 700 LH (for me!) stainless steel with a Leupold scope, Burris Signature rings and top it off with a HS Percision stock. Hey, that's the rifle I have, oh yeah, it's a 30-no-6! Any big hunts in the future? I'm off to Yakutat, AK. (about a 150 miles from Juneau)Sept. 20th for moose and brown bear. I'll send pictures if we bag anything. PS...I'll be using the 30/06 I mentioned above. CK | |||
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| Administrator |
CK, We are off to Zimbabwe in 24 days time. I spoke to our friends there yesterday, and they said summer has just arrived with a vengeance! Great for following elephant and buffalo on a hot windless day! ------------------ www.accuratereloading.com | |||
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| one of us |
OUT OF THE BOX... Howa Or find an old Pre 64 Win. Scope: Leupold Var III 2.5- 8 | |||
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one of us |
Rem 700 & Leupold | |||
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| <Jordan> |
There do not seem to be as many European rifles as their used to be, but it is not even a close question: guns of European manufacture are far superior. It would cost Remington upwards of a thousand dollars to manufacture an action the equivalent of the Sako 75. The Remington 700 is a wax mold casting. Most of the Sako 75 components are machined or forged (there are some cast parts). Look at the Anschutz product. There is no comparable American factory product unless you count the Cooper. They are nice and have gorgeous wood, but under a microscope (so to speak) they do not compare with an Then there is the Sauer 202 and the Blaser. The machining work and the quality of components embarass anything produced by the big three (Rem, Win and Ruger) or any of their custom shops. That said, the new Kimbers sure do look nice. The Germans and northern Europeans just seem to have a talent for working metal; they just make a superior product. Aisde from perhaps ergonomics of stock design on some european products, it is not even a close call. Regards,
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| <R. A. Berry> |
Of course the Remington 700 and Sako 75 are excellent picks too, but only for rifles of less than 375 caliber, i.e., for the small bores where a pushfeed is O.K. Scope I forgot to mention: Leupold of course. Mostly the 2.5X-8X Vari-X III if I had to stick to one. My other three favorite Leuies are the 2.5X M8(fixed power), the 1.5X-5X, and the 1.75X-6XE. ------------------ | ||
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| Moderator |
I think the difference between American & European rifles also comes down to different expectations. I find most Americans almost expect to do some work on a rifle after it is bought where as most Europeans do not...they expect the rifle to function perfectly straight from the box. American rifles from the Big Three are also truely mass production items in the truest sense with rifles being produced in far bigger numbers. There are some average/poor rifles made in Europe but most Americans never get to see them as they are not exported. FIAS is one brand which springs to mind. | |||
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| <500 AHR> |
Pete E I think that you hit the nail on the head so to speak. The Europeans seem to be conforming than we Americans. By that I mean, Europeans seems to share more of the same functions in a rifle. In the US everyone wants something a little different. Therefore, the US manufacturers make weapons of somewhat lesser finish and features knowing that many of the final owners will customize the weapons. This by the way cascades into motorcycles, cars, electronics, etc here in the US. In America there simply is not a true one size fits all! Todd E | ||
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| <Paul Dustin> |
Well for rifles I have Remington, Winchester, Mauser,Ruger,Savage,an like then all, the Savage and Winchester shoot better then the rest but all well 1" or under at 100 yds. the best rifle is hard to say. When it comes to scope I will spend my money on Burris or Leupold all European scope are over price. | ||
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| one of us |
Can someone please explain to me why the castings are not as good as the forgings. I am just a Remington loving farmer and do not understand why one is better than the other. Kent | |||
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| one of us |
I'm not even sure that the Rem 700 is a casting. Looks like just a section of a thick piece of pipe to me (not that it doesn't work fairly well). | |||
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| one of us |
I'm suprised at the mention of the Rugers, as without a doubt they are the least accurate and most inconsistent rifle produced in the USA. Inexpensive, yes. But if the dozen or so M-77s and No.1s I;ve had through the years, none has ever been able to HOLD 1 MOA. Sure a group here and there in one or two rifles might make it, but never consistently. One can fire a single group into a quarter, and the very next group won't hold a saucer. They are an investment cast receiver with a low-cost crap barrel, that maybe one rifle in ten will shoot with some degree of satisfaction. The wood stocks have all the personality and character of a rough lumber fence, and the synthetics belong on a kid's air rifle. In order to further degrade the appearance of the M-77, Ruger is now leaving the entire bolt and handle in the white. Lovely. The Weatherby Mark V as now produced is the best quality rifle in the USA, in any calibre, and the price reflects that. They come out of the box with a beautiful trigger, and accuracy guarantee that they easily beat, and an attention to detail, quality and consistent manufacture that has few peers anywhere. You may not care for their stock design, but they're quaity control and value is the best. Winchester could be a great rifle but they would have to add $100 to the price for some intelligent bedding and getting rid of that crappy-looking plastic triggerguard and grip crap. Remingtons are generally OK, but rather utilitarian, and 1 in 10 rifles is screwed up accuracy-wise or with bluing salts left all over it. The Model 7, while fast-handling, easy-to-carry and cute, is the most inaccurate CF rifle I've ever fired. Worse than the Ruger, which is hard to believe. Leupold scope are good, but the Vari-X II is overpriced for a scope with FRICTION RING adjustments, the Vari-X III is pure obscene extra profit and the LPS is for dodo birds that dont have to carry their own rifle. Burris is just as good, in some ways better than Leupold, and less expensive. Zeiss, Swarovski and esp Kahles are very good, but their price doesnt justify an advantage over Leupold. The 30mm tubes leave me cold and weigh down the rifle and look ridiculous. | |||
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| one of us |
quote: Kudu King, I have recently taken a Remington Seven into consideration, but I found it too short and too back-heavy for good shooting. The problem is IMHO not a lack of mechanical precision but a lack of balance and shootability. Just the same problem I had with my Husqvarna 2001 in .222R I wanted to get rid of. With that gun I was hardly able to hit a newspaper at 80 yards freehand because of the heavy rear. I went home with an old BRNO Fox instead of the pretty Rem, good balance and handling. Although I don�t like push-feeds, I must admit that the Rems usually are well shooting and well balanced. Fritz K. | |||
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| one of us |
Personaly I think this is an indication of why custom rifles are so popular. I'm not a fancy wood or engraving fan all I sought in a rifle was a plain sporter pistol grip but no montecarlo stock and an action with a drop plate, 24" barrel 2 position side safety all quality engineered. Doesn't exist (maybe BRNO come close?) so for the price of a Sauer Lux I had one made. TIKKA are excellent out the box if you can bear a bit of plastic. | |||
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