Escapees from captive elk and deer herds are responsible for the spreading outbreaks of CWD. In some states it is illegal to keep deer, elk, bear, and most big game animals in captivity for anything other than a zoo. I like that policy.

quote:

Hey CH, how many times in AR has someone held back on voicing his opinion because he thought it wouldn't change anyone's mind???

None!

Here in Ak, many guides know what bulls are in their area; do alot of pre season flying around. Is that any different than a hunt on a ranch?

Still glad we don't face private reserve hunting and have miles upon miles of hunting without seeing another individual.

The problem is many of those miles are also devoid of moose; ha.

No one's mind will be changed. It just allows each of us to comment on the asinine viewpoints some have. Not my viewpoints of course. haha And please remember- we are talking about wild trophy elk vs feedlot raised, tame elk turned into a high-fence. (These arn't whitetails or buffalo)

Here is a little story for you guys about an elk ranch here in Utah - maybe even the same one we are talking about on this thread. The "Bull Elk" feedlot sits in a sage valley, with pens about 1-5 acres in size. They are fed all their medicated antler growing feed. There are wild elk in mtns around the valley. One morning the feedlot manager goes out and finds one of his mature bulls outside the feedlot fence and a wild bull inside the feedlot. Seems the two had fought during the night and somehow switched places. Anyway, the UDWR had to shoot the wild bull (CWD fears) and then they just herded the "tame bull" back into its pen. The point of the story-- They just HEARDED a BULL ELK into its pen. And some guys think it is "bragging rights" to shoot a tame feedlot bull.

Down in Mayfield Utah an elk ranch left a gate open and their herd escaped. The herd was rounded up at once by people on foot and atv and put back in their pens. I have wilder range cows than many of these tame, pen raised elk.

Like I said before-- I don't care if someone wants to kill them, just don't brag it up as a "hunt". The whole arguement is no different than turning a lion loose in Africa into a small enclosure or shooting one on the open plains- there is NO true comparison.

CH,

You are woefully misinformed on the the hunt for the Spider bull in Utah. This was, indeed, a true hunt. This bull lived in the area for many years (his entire life), and was hunted repeatedly. He had a "bad" habit of frequenting popular areas during the summer, and was frequently seen wandering among camp trailers, cabins, etc., during the summer. In a sense, he didn't seem terribly wild.

Come fall and the onset of the rut and hunting season, and this bull disappeared like smoke. With all of the pictures of him floating around the internet, nearly every tag holder in the unit was looking for this bull. He eluded everyone for weeks. It is true the hnter who ultimately shot him had hired a well known outfitter, who employeed quite a few other staff to search for this bull. Several other tag holders in the unit also had numerous people looking for the bull. Altogether, with the tag holders, guides, "spotters", etc., looking for this bull, there were easily over 100 people on the mountain trying to find him. It still took nearly a month before a hunter was able to kill this bull. There was a belief before the season started that the hughly paid guide and his staff would have the bull on the ground opening morning. Far from it.

In the end, the guide and hunter connected on this magnificent bull. This isn't exactly how I would like to hunt elk, nor do I condone all that went into this hunt. It was a hunt, however, and there was nothing keeping this bull in the area. He had the survival skills and craftiness to evade hunters for many years, and for quite a while after he became "famous". There is no comparison to a high fenced, canned hunt.

Bill

posse hunting is NOT a fair chase hunt imo
20 pairs of eyes with radios and text messaging
is the difference

You need to understand that llampacker's ethics are different than most.

quote:

20 pairs of eyes with radios and text messaging

If I remember correctly, radio hunting is still illegal in Wyoming.

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:

quote:

20 pairs of eyes with radios and text messaging

If I remember correctly, radio hunting is still illegal in Wyoming.

That's all good and well, but Raver was commenting on the technique used to take the Spider bull. And, that happened in Utah, not Wyoming, so Wyoming laws are not relevant.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
What I enjoy, is that so many pious individuals think they are hunting "Free Ranging" animals.

Each and every on of us that hunt, are doing so with some form of "Fence" limiting the area we are hunting in.

Whether that fence is man made, natural barriers, ......

If you think the imaginary unit boundry lines drawn on a map equate to the same as an actual High Fence for game, you are more lost than I can put into words. Furthermore, I'm sure you wouldn't even be able to comprehend the words I would type, as evidenced by your lack of understanding of what a Fence is

quote:

That's all good and well, but Raver was commenting on the technique used to take the Spider bull. And, that happened in Utah, not Wyoming, so Wyoming laws are not relevant.

Mac, it was more a comment on how strong and prevelant these feeling are in Wyoming. I don't think you will ever see a deer drive in Wyoming, but I know they are common in other parts of the world.

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:

quote:

That's all good and well, but Raver was commenting on the technique used to take the Spider bull. And, that happened in Utah, not Wyoming, so Wyoming laws are not relevant.

Mac, it was more a comment on how strong and prevelant these feeling are in Wyoming. I don't think you will ever see a deer drive in Wyoming, but I know they are common in other parts of the world.

Agreed, but you miss my meaning. Ravenr was commenting about the way the Spider Bull was taken. Your comment about that practice being illegal in Wyoming has no bearing since the hunt in question took place in Utah.

For the record, I happen to see things pretty much the same as Ravenr does. The Spider Bull was taken by the use of "posse Hunting". That bull was staked out and had a nearly continuous watch put on it. The guy that pulled the trigger was in such bad physical shape that it took a little over 2 weeks before he could be put in a position to take the shot.

The so-called guides, employed by Mossback Outfitters, actually prevented other licensed hunters form getting near the bull. It's a damn shame that the Boone & Crockett Club accepted the elk as the new world record. But, since there were no game laws violated during this so called "hunt", they had no practical way to deny it. The guy that shot the bull was so put off by the whole escapade that he is on record as saying he would never employ Mossback Outfitters again.

That's a pretty strong statement since they did produce what has been accepted as the world record. Ever hear of anyone taking a world record and not siging the praises of the guide?

And, I'm a 5th generation resident of the Rocky Mountain west. I fully understand "how strong and prevelant these feeling are in Wyoming". What is acceptable in the east, midwest and south is not generally accepted there.

I was sickened by the activities around the hunting of the Spider bull. As a B+C member, I alerted the records committee even before the animal was shot. If you were a hunter in Utah that summer it was hard to miss the hype around this bull.

Having said that, there are a number of rumors and false accusations that have become regarded as fact after retelling countless times."Posse" hunting in Utah is nearly a family tradition. As I'm not from Utah originally, I was quite perplexed and disquieted by this activity when I moved here. I still prefer to hunt alone or with a very few close family members. That is not the Utah tradition. Sort of like deer drives in the south. Not my cup of tea, but I have come to understand the practice in the southern US as well. Posse hunting is not practiced in Utah just by the big time guides. It is rare to see a tag holder on a LE bull hunt in Utah with less than 10 "spotters". It is the elk hunting tradition. (And for anybody who is curious, elk hunting really only was established in Utah in the last ~30 years.)

There were hundreds of people trying to find the spider bull, and he was a very elusive creature. B+C did not consider him eligible for the Sagamore Hill award due to the nature of this hunt, but it was legal by Utah standards. Denny Austad paid a lot of money for this tag and for the guide service, but his wasn't the only "posse" looking for this bull. There is no comparison to a pen raised, canned elk hunt. How many people would have applauded if a different posse, with "just" a dozen family members had found this bull first and killed him?

I don't condone this type of posse hunting in any state, and don't engage in the practice. I choose not to engage in deer drives in the south either, or hire unlicensed PH's for my hunts in Africa. Others on this board have applauded all these activities. My purpose wasn't to start debating the relative merits of any of these practices, but rather to set the record straight on the spider bull. He was a free ranging bull, as different as night and day from a pen raised, canned elk hunt.

Bill

quote:

The so-called guides, employed by Mossback Outfitters, actually prevented other licensed hunters form getting near the bull.

If that's the case, and it was not on private land, they should be prosecuted and loose their guide license.

quote:

Originally posted by ravenr:
posse hunting is NOT a fair chase hunt imo
20 pairs of eyes with radios and text messaging
is the difference

I used to hunt poossy when I was younger and.....Oh posse, sorry

Haha this is great! It reminds me of Big Sky's "Slow Elk" beer:

http://www.bigskybrew.com/Our_Beers/Limited_Release

Mooo is right!

quote:

If you think the imaginary unit boundry lines drawn on a map equate to the same as an actual High Fence for game, you are more lost than I can put into words. Furthermore, I'm sure you wouldn't even be able to comprehend the words I would type, as evidenced by your lack of understanding of what a Fence is

I understand what a fence is a lot better than you ever will SFB.

Take a bull or buck on the wrong side of that imaginary line where your license is not valid and if caught, it is just as real a fence as barb wire.

Maybe you need to take some remedial courses in comprehending what anopther person is writing.

If your tag for what ever species is valid in only one unit, then YOU are effectively fenced in, PERIOD.

maybe so but
run a critter into a high fence and you get to keep hunting
run a critter across the boundry and you may never see him again
not the same thing

Basically, it is the same thing, just in reverse, but it still constitutes a fence and it is the shooters decision as to whether to shoot or not.

It all boils down to Personal Choices and beliefs.

I feel that if a person wants to consider themselves a hunter for killing basically a domestic animal in a pen, that is their thing, not mine.

I ain't gonna have any problem shooting a bear over a bait if I get the chance in a week or so, but I know people that would/do, and it don't matter one FRA that the bear is a free ranging animal on a National Forest tract.

Those same folks have no problem what some ever shooting a deer at a timed feeder on a high fenced place of a few hundred acres, and they call themselves hunters, yet in their eyes me shooting the bear over a bait makes me nothing but a shooter.

Too God Damn many of us on here want to continue to find dividing lines and set forth some kind of commandments for who is or what constitutes a "True" Hunter.

That is all Bull Shit.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:


Too God Damn many of us on here want to continue to find dividing lines and set forth some kind of commandments for who is or what constitutes a "True" Hunter.

That is all Bull Shit.

It has nothing to do with the definition of a "true hunter" YFI.

It has to do with the definition of a "true hunt"

It's called "fair chase" YFM.

Now go inflate your ego and bolster your shortcomings by killing baited and fenced animals YSDSOB....

YFM.......nice

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
YFM.......nice

what does YFM mean?

i would guess has something to do with
you f%$king moron
but that would just be a guess

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Too God Damn many of us on here want to continue to find dividing lines and set forth some kind of commandments for who is or what constitutes a "True" Hunter.

That is all Bull Shit.

Very well said.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Too God Damn many of us on here want to continue to find dividing lines and set forth some kind of commandments for who is or what constitutes a "True" Hunter.

That is all Bull Shit.

Very well said.

If it is going to be done "right" a few criteria have to be met.
1. Hand make your weapon, one that can not be self propelled.
2. Kill the animal without the use of attrachtants. This includes rattling, grunting or any feed natural
or artificial.
3. The animal must be taken under true free range, no "fences" within a million miles. This includes
rivers too deep to cross, mountains that are impassable, roads the animal might be not
want to cross.
4. The site location has to be found and scouted by YOU. No hunting reports, asking locals, etc.

When you guys can kill under these criteria you will then be able to consider yourselves hunters.

Perry

quote:

Too God Damn many of us on here want to continue to find dividing lines and set forth some kind of commandments for who is or what constitutes a "True" Hunter.

That is all Bull Shit.

I agree 100 percent. While I allaud those who are still physically able to do what they clain is a fair chase hunt, what about the old guy who is at an age where climbing mountains at 9,000+ feel MSL os no longer an option? I guess all you fair chase snobs figure maybe he should keep his sorry antique ass home, sell his guns to you guys cheap and use the money to pay the rest home. Fuck you! Or maybe a Viet Nam vet ot Iraq/Afghanistan vet who has lost a leg? I suppose he's supposed to stay home and drown his sorrows while you go running up a mountain gloating in your damned holier than thou attitude.
What sophistry. You mke me sick.
Paul B.

I am afraid the nonhunters that we have any hope of keeping on our side do in fact DIVIDE us into categories based on at least:

1. What we hunt (cute factor)
2. How much suffering the animal endures
3. Whether we kill and eat or kill and mount
4. How we hunt (Slob hunt from a vehicle or over bait or behind fence or long range for that matter) (A category largely based on how difficult they see the hunting as)
5. How much we give back as opposed to just taking from wildlife and the environment
6. How afraid they are of us. (Do they see us acting unsafe by drinking and hunting, sound shots, shooting too close to civilians or buildings, acting like inbred retards on hunting shows, overly aggressive disrespectful speech about hunting, killing and gunrights)

Unfortuneately we have to PERSUADE these voters and not our fellow hunters. Our fellow hunters are already going to vote to continue hunting. Its easy to sit here and say we must accept all hunters and not be divisive, but the fact is all hunters are not the same in their eyes and they subdivide us into at least dangerous/unacceptable and not dangerous/acceptable groups but they only vote for or against hunting.

I would love to be wrong about this. It's depressing.

Divide AWAY! Most people have lines drawn in the sand of what they find acceptable. I would wager a large sum that the Non-Hunting public draws that line far before shooting a tame bull elk inside a fenced enclosure. I don't really care if they shoot it there and use the animal- just don't tell me how challenging it is and what a trophy it is.

And some of you guys need to step back. We are not talking about a South Texas ranch of 20,000 acres high-fenced. Those deer are born there and live there for their entire life. These elk are raised in pens and turned out into an enclosed area to be shot. THe elk have no idea where to hide, nor do they feel the need to hide from people. The elk are turned out right before they are shot and do not wander far. I have seen them turned into a meadow WHILE the hunter was on the other side of the ridge with the guide "Hunting" for the bull. You really think they are going to let a $50,000 elk run around without knowing exactly where it is?

quote:

what about the old guy who is at an age where climbing mountains at 9,000+ feel MSL os no longer an option?

Paul, I'd like to add to that. What about the guy who also wants to take his wife and kids or grandkids hunting with him? Should we find a way to accomidate them, or just leave the next generation of hunters home until they can hike 20 miles a day?

Good road access is key to enabling hunters to HUNT. Shooting an elk is the easy part. Next you have to ask yourself, "How am I going to get this thing out?"

By closing down road access, the anti's and the snobs can take large swaths of hunters out of the game. Killing access is a key element of the strategy to kill our sport.

quote:

Originally posted by SBT:
You need to understand that llampacker's ethics are different than most.

No kidding.

quote:

Originally posted by jb:

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Boy you guys are treading on thin ice with all your bashing of shooting animals in high-fences!


You better not let eland slayer, perry, or geedubya see your posts; they might get their feelings hurt!

Ah hell,nothing wrong with a little lively debate.

First,
RC, Aren't you one of HC's butt boys.

Still smartin' from the spankin' you got last time!

I've been slandered by better'n you lots of times.

At least do me the courtesy of when you do take my name in vain, let me know!


Not to worry JB,

And to all you free range guys, take this............



I can "hunt" high fence with the best of them.
Here is a hair' raisin' experience from a few years ago when I was near my prime.
IIRC, it only took us a 15 minute limo ride to accomplish all this!

As I probably have mentioned before I hunt near Vanderpool Texas on a 3000 acre low fenced ranch. I
recently told the ranch owner I would develop a web site and put a couple of his pen raised, protien fed, ear tagged monster bucks on accurate reloading.com in order to make him rich and famous world wide, and which would also cause hunters from such exotic climes as Colorado and Wyoming and other places with vast amounts of public land to hunt creme in their jeans with envy and desire.



So here goes my first attempt.



You guys from the big sky wide open country let me know if I was successful!



scroll on down



a little more.



Yeah, that ought to do it


How many of you free range hunters can say you shot two 11 pointers the same morning!






Best
GWB

PS. And in the best sense of being politically correct, I am the short fat bald one, and I AIRBURSHED THE EAR TAGS OUT OF THE DEER AND THE EARRINGS OUT OF MY EARS, but did leave the "high fence" in the background!

Dat's a couple biguns....