Looking for thoughts and advice on whitetail shot placement for late evening low light shooting.

The goal is to make sure there is a blood trail, quickly kill the animal and have the least movement from place of shot to dead animal.

The key is to make sure there is a blood trail.

The area where the deer would go die is very swampy. So want to make sure there is proof (blood) the deer was shot. Don’t want the deer to go die in the swamp and not recover it that night.

I am leaning towards a double lung shot and moving the gun to a heavier caliber (30/06 or bigger) and 180 grain bullets.

Thanks

Mike

Mike:

The question is too general as a shot at a deer can come with a deer standing at many different angles. Personally, the first thing I would do is concern myself with the bullet. Not all bullets have the same effectiveness at leaving a blood trail.

If the terrain is that bad where it is difficult or impossible to track, one must consider a shot that will anchor the deer right there . One that comes to mind is one that completely disrupts the central nervous system such as neck or spine. Those are extremely risky shots. I have shot plenty that way but I do not like it.
Even a slight miss might not be fatal. I have shot a fair number right in the head with a good rest. They go nowhere.

If really depends on the angle. Lungs, with the right bullet, should give you a lot of blood. Heart does as well. I like smacking both shoulders if the angle is right.

Get the right bullet first. A perfect shot with the wrong bullet will leave no blood trail.

I shoot deer broadside if possible, on the point of the shoulder, breaking both shoulders and hitting heart or arteries/veins around the heart. This results in a snowplow if they don't immediately drop, because they look like a snowplow with only back legs to push and the head on the ground. I generally shoot a 30-06 or 308 win with 165 or 180 grain bullets. If I use something else it is bigger... 300 H+H, 338wm, 375 H+H, 45/70, 50-110.. ect.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Mike:

The question is too general as a shot at a deer can come with a deer standing at many different angles. Personally, the first thing I would do is concern myself with the bullet. Not all bullets have the same effectiveness at leaving a blood trail.

If the terrain is that bad where it is difficult or impossible to track, one must consider a shot that will anchor the deer right there . One that comes to mind is one that completely disrupts the central nervous system such as neck or spine. Those are extremely risky shots. I have shot plenty that way but I do not like it.
Even a slight miss might not be fatal. I have shot a fair number right in the head with a good rest. They go nowhere.

If really depends on the angle. Lungs, with the right bullet, should give you a lot of blood. Heart does as well. I like smacking both shoulders if the angle is right.

Get the right bullet first. A perfect shot with the wrong bullet will leave no blood trail.

I like Barnes 180 grain in 30/06 or 300 win mag.

I shot a deer in the perfect spot - https://www.safaripress.com/po...rgets-whitetail.html

There was no blood trail (blood never made it to the ground but went down the deer’s leg) and a dead deer within 75 yards. He ran straight into the swamp and died. But there was zero evidence that the deer was hit.

I much rather shoot both lungs and make two holes that bled to leave evidence that the deer was shot. Since I am shooting at dusk the recovery will be at night in the dark. Searching thru a swamp at night sucks when you have no evidence you hit the deer.

I am leaning towards breaking the shoulders or double lung shot. I want to hit a large target that shows evidence of a hit. This is hunting in very low light conditions and the recovery will be in the dark.

Mike

Just what one would expect from a Blaser user!

Does it actually matter where you shoot a deer, depending on time of day?

Of course, if you are a Blaser user.

Anyway, just to make it easier for you, aim for the WHITE!

I have killed 100s of whitetails if you can make a high shoulder shot they will drop at it, if not shoot thru both front shoulders dead center on the middle of the shoulder. With 180 gr 30-06 you can easily break both shoulders with an exit hole.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Mike:

The question is too general as a shot at a deer can come with a deer standing at many different angles. Personally, the first thing I would do is concern myself with the bullet. Not all bullets have the same effectiveness at leaving a blood trail.

If the terrain is that bad where it is difficult or impossible to track, one must consider a shot that will anchor the deer right there . One that comes to mind is one that completely disrupts the central nervous system such as neck or spine. Those are extremely risky shots. I have shot plenty that way but I do not like it.
Even a slight miss might not be fatal. I have shot a fair number right in the head with a good rest. They go nowhere.

If really depends on the angle. Lungs, with the right bullet, should give you a lot of blood. Heart does as well. I like smacking both shoulders if the angle is right.

Get the right bullet first. A perfect shot with the wrong bullet will leave no blood trail.

I like Barnes 180 grain in 30/06 or 300 win mag.

I shot a deer in the perfect spot - https://www.safaripress.com/po...rgets-whitetail.html

There was no blood trail (blood never made it to the ground but went down the deer’s leg) and a dead deer within 75 yards. He ran straight into the swamp and died. But there was zero evidence that the deer was hit.

I much rather shoot both lungs and make two holes that bled to leave evidence that the deer was shot. Since I am shooting at dusk the recovery will be at night in the dark. Searching thru a swamp at night sucks when you have no evidence you hit the deer.

I am leaning towards breaking the shoulders or double lung shot. I want to hit a large target that shows evidence of a hit. This is hunting in very low light conditions and the recovery will be in the dark.

Mike

TSX? I have experienced the exact same thing which is why I quit using them.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Just what one would expect from a Blaser user!

Does it actually matter where you shoot a deer, depending on time of day?

Of course, if you are a Blaser user.

Anyway, just to make it easier for you, aim for the WHITE!

Yes it does matter.

If I shoot a deer and he is dead but leaves no blood trail is not same a blood trail dead deer. At night I will not go search a swamp without proof (blood) that I shot him. It is me alone without anyone else observing or recording in low light. After the shot there is little to see - the recoil and low light insures that I don’t see where he runs off. The swamp is right next to the open meadow.

In good light it is irrelevant - I can easily go into the swamp and even observe reaction after the shot.

Mike

Are you hunting whitetail in FL? I would think a .22 would be enough to put those little puppies down.



Kidding of course. You want the deer dead every time you shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by Norton:
Are you hunting whitetail in FL? I would think a .22 would be enough to put those little puppies down.



Kidding of course. You want the deer dead every time you shoot.

Dead plus recovered.

A dead deer recovered next day does nothing in 80-95 degree weather.

I won’t do a full recovery at night in a swamp without proof it was hit.

What I am looking for is shot placement for a fatal bloody kill or drop in the track shot. This will be a low light shot.

Mike

I try for center or slightly higher shoulder shots. Depending on light conditions a center or slightly lower shoulder shot should get both shoulders and possibly/probably lung and heart.

A lot of times though what appears to be a broadside really isn't and the deer will be angled slightly.

Dropping the point of aim 3 inches or so down the shoulder from the top line of the back might have the same effect as a spine shot, I have seen that happen.

I saw a lot of mention of the 30-06 with 180 gr bullets as a good combination to get both good anchoring and a blood trail if needed.

There was, however, no mention of bullet construction. For example, a 110 gr all-copper expanding bullet will give a good size wound channel and penetrate as deep or deeper than a 180 gr softpoint. The same is true for a 125 gr partition. (See http://shootersnotes.com/ideal-bullet-weight/ for explanations.)

This tells us that a 25-06 or any of the commercial 6.5 calibers will also likely do what the OP asks. Regardless of bullet design or caliber, shot placement remains king for assuring a successful shot.

Blood trail is never a guarantee after a shot.

You want to anchor your deer to the spot?

Head, neck or spine shot.

Nothing else will guarantee it stays in place.

Keep studying Deer anatomy, look them over from every angle and make sure you shoot them in the heart or taking out the major arteries and vessels above the heart.
Every time you will have good blood on the ground and at every bound. The deer will be dead in seconds.
Too many variables when taking shoulder shots, spine shots etc when considering your criteria of immediate blood on the ground.
Whatever the distance you are shooting if you can hit a softball then you can hit the heart and use a bullet that will expand, I like Sierra's for this but many others work, maybe avoid tougher bullets like mono metals.
Only other option is to shoot them in the head or neck. Those are effective and dramatic.

I've got the same problem at my place in South Georgia. In the evenings and in low light, a blood trail is most important in determining a hit and aiding in the tracking.

I've gone to larger calibers and using Nosler Partitions. They seem to always expand and the core always provides a shoot through on deer-sized animals. Presently, my rifle of choice for the afternoon hunts is a re-barreled Remington Model Seven in .338 Federal. I'm big on eating all of the deer I can, so I still shoot for double-lung/heart shots, which, on shoot-throughs, produce lots of blood and spoils no meat.

That said, I have a Boykin Spaniel that, besides being a world-class flushing dog/retriever, will find a dead dear in no time. I've got a little flashing light on her collar. Even on the shots I think will be easy tracking, I go back to the cabin, pick up Millie and bring her to where the deer was standing while shot. I tell her to "find the deer" and she's off like a shot. I watch that little flashing light for about 40 yards, give her a hold command, catch up to her and repeat. Never lost an animal that way. I even get her to track deer that I saw fall in sufficient light or in the mornings.... for practice.... and when hunting on another's property, ask that she be allowed to track there, too. She's probably found 40 dead deer in her four years. For safety's sake, she always wears and electronic collar, so she's controllable even out of sight.

I'm not sure why, but she seems to know that we only need to follow wounded deer. She'll sometime jump up another deer (or maybe the yearling of a doe I shot) and follow for ten or fifteen yards... but will break it off on her own and go back to the trail. Just amazing how a dog can figure out what it's job is???

Get yourself a puppy, I love my Boykin, if legal for tracking... works for me and she's my constant companion.

I've killed a couple hundred deer. With anything short of a CNS shot, there are no guarantees how a deer will react to bullet impacts, even with the exact same bullet from the exact same cartridge/caliber, impacting the exact same spot. If you have to have an exit every time, shoot a Barnes TTSX, but IME monos are not as quick killers than cup and cores that tend to retain less bullet weight after impact. Partitions are the perfect hunting bullet IMO.

Deer are easy to kill though, and I never understand why people think they need big calibers to kill deer. A light recoiling 7-08 will kill any deer on the planet quickly, are easier to shoot accurately, and with good bullets will kill just as quick an easily as the 30 cals.

Getting or finding a dog that will trail/track a wounded deer is a real plus.

There are a few enterprising folks in this area that have trained one or two of their dogs to blood trail and they get paid pretty well to help folks find deer that weren't DRT.

Last word is;

DON’T MISS!

Mike:

I have gone through this very issue but for a slightly different reason. For many years, I shot a certain brand of ammo with a certain bullet with fantastic results. Then they quit making it. Bastards! I moved on to something else. Same thing happened. At some point, I got to a bullet that is praised by many. I started to notice absolutely no blood trails . The final straw was a hog I shot at about 60 yards with a dead solid rest. I watched it run off . Could not believe it. Fortunately, I kept my eye on it and noticed it fall about 300 yards away.

I got down and found a tiny speck of blood. Nothing else. I walked to the hog. It looked like it had been shot with a solid. I had similar occurrences with deer several times. My kids did as well. I said the hell with those bullets.

I had a new rifle made specifically for treestand hunting . A 300 Win Mag. At first,I shot the 210 grain Berger VLD bullets. Generally, I had great success with them. However, I had just the opposite problem with them. They devastated most animals. However, on a big buck or big boar, they may not fully penetrate on certain angles. You might recall that giant buck hanging in the Cypress House at Gilchrist. Dropped him dead in his tracks but did not penetrate. This bullet caused me to lose a truly giant bar hog. He was hit square on the shoulder. The shoulder was flopping when he ran. Not a drop of blood anywhere. Both Jeff and I are convinced the bullet smacked the shoulder but did not penetrate. I switched to accubonds.

I use a 30/30 here in Wisconsin.I don`t feel I am under gunned here out to 200 yards.I do a high shoulder or neck shot and there is no tracking involved.Since I am hunting in a swamp,I pick my shots and do not shoot at running deer.I would rather pass a deer by than wound it.Out West I move up to a 270Win.JMHO,OB

I have never shot a whitetail but have shot a lot of deer. Most of my shooting has similar requirements for completely opposite reasons. You see my place has cleared tops of ridges with trees and brush down the sides. If I have a deer run, the recovery consists of dragging a deer up steep hillsides through thick stuff, not fun.
You didn't mention the circumstances of your set up. Are you in a position with a rest? Inside of 100 yards with an undisturbed deer and a rest, I go neck shot every time without a thought,DRT. I don't consider a neck shot the least bit risky in those circumstances.

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:
I have killed 100s of whitetails if you can make a high shoulder shot they will drop at it, if not shoot thru both front shoulders dead center on the middle of the shoulder. With 180 gr 30-06 you can easily break both shoulders with an exit hole.

This ^^^^^^^^^^

Just some context

I am shooting at the edge or within 20 yards of the tree line



I am shooting in low light - jut at dusk. Can see the outline of the deer.

After the shot the deer very often run into the swamp which is behind the tree line.

This is the swamp




It is very difficult to search the swamp at night. If there is no blood trail does one even try searching the swamp blindly.

It’s also 77-95 degree weather - you cannot leave the deer overnight.

What I would like is a shot placement that makes a big bloody hole and a bullet and calibre to make it with.

Thanks

Mike

I would go for a double shoulder shot to help prevent the critter from moving off into the swamp.

I would go with a heavy-for-caliber bullet that opens up fairly quickly unless you are using a really light rife (.243, etc).

JMO.

BH63

30-06 with Hornady 165 or 180 grain Interlocks through both shoulders and it won't get to the swamp! IMHO it's best to put one through the boiler room ,but they can/will run a ways a lot of times before they die. Also, IMHO head shooting game is BS and a neck shot is iffy at best because it's also a small zone for a good clean immediate kill.

Through both shoulders or high shoulder. As my friend Randall says, "a deer can pull itself a long way, but can't push itself with no front shoulders worth a damn".

If I do not want a deer to go very far, I stay away from a heart shot. If it takes a deer 14 seconds to die from lack of oxygen from a heart shot, it can travel 200 yards in that time. I don't care what kind of blood trail you have...when the blood hits the water of the swamp, it is useless.

If you want the fastest kills possible drive a 300gr ballistic tip in 458 Lott, 450 NE, or 450 rigby through the front shoulder. I did this on a 1.5yr doe last year- it didn't move much after the shot. Just remember, you don't need the heavy for caliber bullets to shoot though the goliath deer we have up north here. I suspect that the yearling doe is about the same size as a mature Florida buck. So if you go that route expect a similar reaction.

quote:

Originally posted by Topgun 30-06:
30-06 with Hornady 165 or 180 grain Interlocks through both shoulders and it won't get to the swamp! IMHO it's best to put one through the boiler room ,but they can/will run a ways a lot of times before they die. Also, IMHO head shooting game is BS and a neck shot is iffy at best because it's also a small zone for a good clean immediate kill.

I use a 180 SST in my .308 Win and get great blood trails; exit wound is large and the amount of blood is incredible.

I have the same experiences with TSX that Larry has had, and frankly, see the same thing with 250 gr A Frames in my .338. I shot a pile of game in Zim in June and hardly saw any blood. The exit wounds were not much bigger than the bullet diameter.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
Just some context

I am shooting at the edge or within 20 yards of the tree line



I am shooting in low light - jut at dusk. Can see the outline of the deer.

After the shot the deer very often run into the swamp which is behind the tree line.

This is the swamp




It is very difficult to search the swamp at night. If there is no blood trail does one even try searching the swamp blindly.

It’s also 77-95 degree weather - you cannot leave the deer overnight.

What I would like is a shot placement that makes a big bloody hole and a bullet and calibre to make it with.

Thanks

Mike

Not the easiest thing to do but it can be done . First, one needs a REALLY good light. If one looks carefully, they can often tell where the deer has run. There is often sign. It may not be blood. Depends on the water. Discolored water. Bubbles. Grass moved. Even blood on leaves on top of the water. Again, a good light. Pay attention to every detail . I have done this more times than I ever wanted to.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by Topgun 30-06:
30-06 with Hornady 165 or 180 grain Interlocks through both shoulders and it won't get to the swamp! IMHO it's best to put one through the boiler room ,but they can/will run a ways a lot of times before they die. Also, IMHO head shooting game is BS and a neck shot is iffy at best because it's also a small zone for a good clean immediate kill.

I use a 180 SST in my .308 Win and get great blood trails; exit wound is large and the amount of blood is incredible.

I have the same experiences with TSX that Larry has had, and frankly, see the same thing with 250 gr A Frames in my .338. I shot a pile of game in Zim in June and hardly saw any blood. The exit wounds were not much bigger than the bullet diameter.

I used the SST in my 30-06 one year and the bullet blew up on a mule deer buck at 125 yards and left a hole in the shoulder bigger than a softball and there was little penetration. That was a couple days after I shot a cow elk at the same distance with her standing relaxed broadside 1/2 hour before dark. She took off with the bunch she was with and I never found any sign until I found her dead at 10AM the next morning after a 3 hour search. When I dressed her out the SST had blown up on the near rib and had barely penetrated the near lung. By the time I got her into the processor late in the warm day we had I lost over half the meat. In 65 years that's the only animal I've ever lost meat from and the rest of those SSTs were used on the range and I went to their Interlock and haven't looked back in the almost 20 years I've been reloading them. The SSTs were factory loads.

I shot a couple hundred of deer. if there is no snow on the ground I like the double shoulder shot.

I prefer a heavier for caliber bullet.

I also believe in shooting them again and again if they are still moving.

If they are worth shooting once they are worth shooting again.

quote:

I also believe in shooting them again and again if they are still moving.

If they are worth shooting once they are worth shooting again.

That is the best post I have seen on this site.

If a person shoots something, they have accepted the responsibility to finish the job no matter what it takes!!!

The .358 Winchester has been my favorite since I scored with it first in 1964 with my Savage 99F. That rifle has always been scoped as my primary hunting area is in VT where we must see a 3" min. antler.

The bear season is open during the deer season and for much longer.

Also I LIKE the 358 Win. I feel good hunting with it.



I handload the Winchester 200 gr Silvertip over a full load of 3031. I aim for behind the shoulder.

I have two 99F's in 358 and a pre64 M70 Featherweight along with a Steyr Daimler 20" bbl. Full stock original Mannlicher with a Zeiss 4x.

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
I've killed a couple hundred deer. With anything short of a CNS shot, there are no guarantees how a deer will react to bullet impacts, even with the exact same bullet from the exact same cartridge/caliber, impacting the exact same spot. If you have to have an exit every time, shoot a Barnes TTSX, but IME monos are not as quick killers than cup and cores that tend to retain less bullet weight after impact. Partitions are the perfect hunting bullet IMO.

Deer are easy to kill though, and I never understand why people think they need big calibers to kill deer. A light recoiling 7-08 will kill any deer on the planet quickly, are easier to shoot accurately, and with good bullets will kill just as quick an easily as the 30 cals.

I use a 7 mauser or the Ackley version and cup and core [interlocks] bullets.
the only other rifle I have had work just as well and with as much regularity [predictability] is the 25-06.
I want 2 holes, anything less is unacceptable. the 25 does blood shoot some meat at the entrance unlike the slower 7mm.
you want the opposite of that, the bullets construction is really the determining factor in it's performance.
combine the construction with your muzzle speed and you should be able to somewhat 'tune' the entrance and exit wounds.

if you want blood on the ground you need to be hitting veins and have a low exit point, a high lung shot will kill the deer but no blood will run out until the lungs are pumped full.

During my career as a animal damage control professional, I’ve shot well north of 1000 deer with rifles from .22LR to 12bore.

Fact 1: Less then perfect shots happen more frequently as you move to larger calibers.

Fact 2: No caliber leaves a fool proof blood trail on a bad shot.

Fact 3: CNS shots can, will and do go wrong. I’ve watched deer drop in their tracks from head, neck and spine shots miraculously get up and run off.

You won’t always have perfect shot presentation, so my advice is to shoot the smallest caliber practical with a reliable bullet and aim for the vitals. Light recoil does a lot for shot placement. My personal preference for WT is .270 Win with 130gr Corelockt. I’m fairly impressed with 6.5 Creedmoor with 120gr GMX bullets and my youngest son has had a big string of DRT shots with his 6x45 useing 85gr Sierra Gamekings.

Bottom line, like Saeed said a few posts up “DON’T MISS”
That’s the key.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
Just some context

I am shooting at the edge or within 20 yards of the tree line



I am shooting in low light - jut at dusk. Can see the outline of the deer.

After the shot the deer very often run into the swamp which is behind the tree line.

This is the swamp




It is very difficult to search the swamp at night. If there is no blood trail does one even try searching the swamp blindly.

It’s also 77-95 degree weather - you cannot leave the deer overnight.

What I would like is a shot placement that makes a big bloody hole and a bullet and calibre to make it with.

Thanks

Mike

Not the easiest thing to do but it can be done . First, one needs a REALLY good light. If one looks carefully, they can often tell where the deer has run. There is often sign. It may not be blood. Depends on the water. Discolored water. Bubbles. Grass moved. Even blood on leaves on top of the water. Again, a good light. Pay attention to every detail . I have done this more times than I ever wanted to.

I bought a fenix tk75, fenix ld50 flashlights.

Swamp in the dark sucks.

Mike

Just imagine if someone puts motion sensors that emit animal sounds close to your hunting area in the swamp?

And trail cameras to catch your reaction!

quote:

Fact 3: CNS shots can, will and do go wrong. I’ve watched deer drop in their tracks from head, neck and spine shots miraculously get up and run off.

If a deer gets up and runs off after a CNS shot, you didn't hit the CNS. You may have hit near enough to shock the CNS but CNS means DRT every time.

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:

quote:

Fact 3: CNS shots can, will and do go wrong. I’ve watched deer drop in their tracks from head, neck and spine shots miraculously get up and run off.

If a deer gets up and runs off after a CNS shot, you didn't hit the CNS. You may have hit near enough to shock the CNS but CNS means DRT every time.

During his killing over 1000 deer in his career I don't think you needed to tell him that, as most of us also know what he meant and that is there is little room for error on those shots. Hit one in the meat of the neck and it will usually go down from the shock, but it won't stay down when the shock wears off!

quote:

Originally posted by Topgun 30-06:

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:

quote:

Fact 3: CNS shots can, will and do go wrong. I’ve watched deer drop in their tracks from head, neck and spine shots miraculously get up and run off.

If a deer gets up and runs off after a CNS shot, you didn't hit the CNS. You may have hit near enough to shock the CNS but CNS means DRT every time.

During his killing over 1000 deer in his career I don't think you needed to tell him that, as most of us also know what he meant and that is there is little room for error on those shots. Hit one in the meat of the neck and it will usually go down from the shock, but it won't stay down when the shock wears off!

I should have said attempted CNS shots. Poor writing on my part.

I’ve watched deer go down from head shots and get right back up due to the bullet glancing off the skull with .22LR, .223, .308, 12ga slug. I’ve witnessed similar bounce backs from neck shots gone bad. I’ve also watched deer run off that have been properly shot through both shoulders with a 300 Win Mag that the owner believed would anchor it on the spot. Shit happens.

No gun is fool proof.
No shot is fool proof.
Their are no guarantees in hunting.

To the OP’s question, I would recommend a self imposed curfew on shooting hours to mitigate against tracking in the swamp after dark. Even then their is no guarantee.