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| One of Us |
That's a good tip, but if he's like I am he probably wants to stay until the last minute of legal shooting time waiting for that big one to step out. | |||
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I’ve shot about a hundred whitetail (give or take a few) with rifle, bow, shotgun, muzzle loader and handgun but most with a rifle. I prefer the high shoulder shot that gets both lungs and angle depending, the top of the heart as well breaking bone. Most of the time that shot anchors them and when it doesn’t, they leave a good blood trail. BUT…in my limited experience I have found there is no absolutes when it comes to blood trails. I have had shots the went straight through and left a hole so big that I could almost put my fist through it but for the 50 or so yard the deer ran, it didn’t bleed a drop. And I have had the opposite happen. Just last year my 12yr old son shot a big doe with his 260. He hit her a little high but still got both lungs. She ran about 30-40 yards and we saw her fall but holy cow, it looked like someone had sprayed blood out of a fire hose all down her trail. Entry and exit wound were nothing special so Im guessing she blew it all out her nose. Those situations aren’t the norm though. If you get both lungs you will generally get a decent blood trail to follow. I also use plain old cup and core bullets like Speer Hot Core and Sierra Game Kings because they expand reliably and 95% of the time, pass through. I think that the mono copper bullets are just not needed and I have not had good luck with them expanding on the average sized whitetail we have in GA. This is a guess but I would say 97% of the deer I have shot with a rifle were DRT, 2.5% ran but fell within sight and .5% ran out of sight and I had to trail them. 30+ years experience tells me that perfection hit at .264. Others are adequate but anything before or after is wishful thinking. | |||
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| one of us |
Killing deer and retrieving them are different things. Our situation mirrors yours (well-illustrated by your pics). We gave an LEO permission to hunt and for three consecutive years he lost deer he definitely hit with his .308. Must be stupid, but I finally woke up to ask what he was using. Federal GM 168 SMKs. Duh. Next year he shot a nice little 7 pt with 165 gr soft points, and retrieved it. We've had great luck with Rem 180 gr PSPCLs loaded to 2900-ish fps. We take heart shots mostly. Am not afraid to neck them, but conditions have to be perfect. This is rarely the case with twitchy big guys. On NYS/CT whitetails CLs always fully penetrated on relatively broadside hits - .308 in nickel diameter out. Deer we've taken up here are just enough larger that we can't count on full penetration. Then, no animal killed over decades ever traveled more than 35 yds. I can live with that. At '06 impact velocities that bullet is pretty bankable. Have not played with .277 or .284s, but will say a .30 that exits reliably gives a blood trail. We just haven't needed one, 35 yds such as it is. I say all this having killed them with .22 CFs just fine. But terrain was different, deer shot in more open lots. Anyway, Mike, I think your logic is spot-on. | |||
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Question for Adamhunter---How do you shoot high through both shoulders like you mentioned and at an angle that hits the heart when it's all the way down close to the front leg? | |||
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I realize 'high shoulder" might mean up on the scapular bone to some but that's not what I am referring to. I can't post pics but if you look at a pic of a deer, come up the center of the foreleg to the top of the triangle that's formed at the joint, come forward an inch or too and shoot there. Lungs and aortic stuff all together there. 30+ years experience tells me that perfection hit at .264. Others are adequate but anything before or after is wishful thinking. | |||
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Absent a CNS shot, animals stop being able to move off to any material extent because of either a) both shoulders or hips being broken to the point that they cannot support the weight of the animal or b) lack of oxygenated blood to the muscles and subsequently the brain. Given the above, I would a) choose the largest caliber rifle I had available and b) use a rapidly expand bullet like a ballistic tip or berger at moderate velocity. In order of preference if neck/shoulder joint shot is available I would take it followed by a broadside high heart/double lung shot. Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Some thing like this would help you find a deer at night. https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...tal-zoom-30-hz-matte | |||
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| One of Us |
We have something like this. Too many fallen branches limbs ect in the swap that make this tough to use. Mike | |||
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Where you are talking about is NOT a high shoulder shot. To shoot one in the lower lungs near or through the heart like you're talking about is nowhere near what would be called a high shoulder shot. In fact, it's probably at least 12" or more lower than what is a high shoulder shot on a deer. | |||
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| One of Us |
I have had the same problems with needing to anchor deer before they reach the impenetrable wild rose thickets on river bottoms. Like others, I think 30 cal. or up, soft point through both shoulders. And if your budget allows, think about buying a used thermal imager. The kind firefighters use to find victims in zero visibility. They can be had for about 500 dollars and are amazing. You will be able to see in the dark and the units detect temperature variances of 1/2 a degree. The units are available because fire departments are constantly trading in units as the technology gets better. I used them for 20 years at my work and they've gotten smaller and lighter. If you get to the blood trail before it cools to ambient temperature you will easily see the blood. A hand print on a door will show for a minute or two! The unit cannot see under water but if any part of the deer is above water it will glow brightly. It's a lot of money but it will be worth every penny to easily recover your animals. And you'll have a lot of fun using it. I'm not big on using technology to gain the upper hand when hunting but I believe in doing whatever is necessary to recover an animal. | |||
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Just an opinion, nothing else. Among the things I have learned and observed over the years since I started deer hunting is that with the advancements in technology, even bargain basement scopes have so much clearer lens with better light gathering ability that it has pushed the limits to a point that may be or is beyond the abilities of the shooter. From experience with some deer hunters in this area, I have heard shots taken and hits made that were definitely beyond legal shooting time. Like anything else with any other activity there will always be participants that will push the limits and sometimes the results were not as desired. So maybe thought should also be given as to when to take the shot while figuring out where to place the shot. Again that is just one persons opinion. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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C H C Very good point ! Hogs in the twilite, OK. Deer, not so much. | |||
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LOL! 12"on a whitetail? If you aim 12" higher you are going to shoot over his back by about 5". A big W/T stands 36" to the top of his back and his chest is about 18"-20" from top to bottom. Maybe they grow them giant whitetail where you are from....   30+ years experience tells me that perfection hit at .264. Others are adequate but anything before or after is wishful thinking. | |||
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That is part of my point, lose a hog, NBD there are plenty of hogs. I have not seen it on this site since I have been on here, but on two or three other sites I had been on, there were "Hunters" both archers and gun hunters that openly talked about taking last minute shots and their only concern was being able to recover the racks. Personally, other on the TP&W Draw Hunt in 2015 for cull mule deer bucks, I have not taken a shot at any antlered buck white tail or mule deer since the mid-late 1990's. With that said, I would definitely not take a shot at a buck that I would not take at a doe. It is all up to personal choice and each of us have to decide for ourselves. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Adamhunter---You need to go back to the drawing board because that picture you posted with the circle IS what people would call a shoulder shot, but it certainly isn't anywhere near where the heart is located on any whitetail in the USA regardless of body size like you stated. The heart FYI lies damn near down on the belly line near the leg and that's why I stated that your "shoulder" shot now shown in that circle is almost 12" higher than the heart. You, Sir, may have 30 years under your belt, but I have well over 60 and know my game anatomy a lot better than your picture and statement about the heart location on a whitetail! A heart shot is within about 6" or less of the belly line and close to the front leg well before the leg bone goes up to the shoulder bone (scapula) where your circle is! The top of your circle is actually almost at the top of the scapula and if you look closely you can actually see it in your picture. There is also no "aortic stuff" like you stated up near that circle. The aorta is on the top of the heart and the heart lies horizontally a little above the belly with the aorta facing to the front of the animal. | |||
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| One of Us |
In looking at the photo of the, depending on range and shooter ability, a bullet placed where the blue one or the blue "Feet" mark is or placed inbetween the two should produce the same effect as a spine shot. Another option, again depending upon the shooter and their ability to hit where they are aiming is to place the Horizontal crosshair, level on the top of the animals back right on the hair line and then drop the center of the cross hairs 2 to 4 inches into the hair on the shoulder and the results should be the same as a spine shot. The main concept with many hunters is learning NOT to take a shot they are uncomfortable with. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Sir let me just tell you a little about my experience with deer and their anatomy. In addition to my experience with deer I have killed myself, I have also been apart of 4 studies done by the DNR and University of GA. In a 4 year period, I have taken every possible measurement, skinned, gutted and otherwise autopsied somewhere around 1200 to 1500 deer killed by hunters in south and west central GA and also deer kept at UGA facility. This number does not include those animals taken by friends/family and such that I have been a part of. I'm pretty sure it trumps your 60 years! First, if you think that circle is 12" above the heart, you need glasses and a remedial lesson in tape measure reading. Even on the largest deer and one bigger than any I measured, it would be no more than 6" above the midpoint of the heart. Second, the heart lies at about a 30 degree angle in relation to the horizontal line formed by the belly. It does not lie horizontally nor does it sit all the way at the bottom of the chest as you say but rather lies 2"-3" inches above the inner wall of the chest cavity which the bulk of, as you say, is protected by the shoulder. You are dead wrong if the think there is no aortic stuff in that area (sorry, I called it "stuff" when I typed that because I could not remember the proper names) That area is the convergent of the aortic, jugular, dorsal and cartoid arteries. Third, the top of the scapula is about 6" above the center line of the circle I have shown with the mid point being at spine level. Give or take a bit based on the deer size. That circle hits the base of the scapula and top of the humerus A lot of old guys like you have these opinions but have never substantiated them by putting a tape on them or doing a detailed scientific study but that's OK. It makes for good lively debate on AR. Please don't take my word for it though. There is plenty of information out there about all this on the internet....including the very studies I took part in! Maybe you will learn something! Good day to you sir! 30+ years experience tells me that perfection hit at .264. Others are adequate but anything before or after is wishful thinking. | |||
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Thank you for all those "exact" measurements, LOL! Yes, I realize the heart is not exactly horizontal to the belly line, as my terminology was not meant to be measured by the inch as you have now done, but it does lie very low in contrast to where your circle is and I didn't say it was all the way at the bottom of the chest cavity. Looking at your picture you stated the top to bottom measurement is 18" to 20" and I won't argue that one bit. However, you sure as heck aren't going to hit any "aortic stuff" if you shoot a deer up in that circle no matter what you shoot it with unless it's a cannon! I've killed a lot more deer, antelope, and elk than you've ever taken, if you've even taken any of the latter two species. Add a ton of ones that I've helped others dress and certainly knowing where the heart is in context to your shoulder shot, you aren't going to directly damage any "aortic stuff" with that shoulder shot using any caliber normally used for deer. Please find another picture that shows the internal organs and if you can still say that shot of yours is going to break both shoulders and still be able to angle to the heart it will prove that you've been tipping the bottle way too much, LOL! In case you don't remember, this was the exact quote in your first post: "I prefer the high shoulder shot that gets both lungs and angle depending, the top of the heart as well breaking bone." | |||
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I have heard and seen it on many hunting videos that they waited until the next day to follow up a bad shot until the next morning. Even in below zero weather a critter that is left over night with the guts in it well results in meat that is ruined. A shot placed in the white circle of the deer shown well most times result in a very dead deer shortly. As long as you are using a decent caliber and bullet. But strange things happen. | |||
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| One of Us |
This stuff really isn't that hard is it? | |||
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| One of Us |
I do a lot of culling for ranches in West Texas and have shot hundreds of whitetails. When you are trying to get volumes, it is inefficient to spend a lot of time tracking. I have narrowed it down to very high speed 110 grain TTSX (3500 fps 30/06) with point of impact just above the heart to destroy the pulmonary circuit. This results in an immediate loss of blood pressure and unconsciousness. By the time they wake up, they have bled out. The secondary effect is hydrostatic shock which may disrupt electrical signals. Alternatively, 125 grain to 150 grain Sierras or Ballistic Tips do the same thing. I run about 3250 fps for the 125s and a little over 3000 for the 150s. This works well enough that my success rate is in the mid 90% range of DRT shots. But bullets do funny things and it does not work every time. I have played with every combination of bullet, speed and shot location to ease my ability to get the deer loaded in the back of the truck without wandering around trying to follow a blood trail. | |||
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| one of us |
In my early years I shot a few deer with 125gr Serrias out of an 06 and a max charge of 4064. DRT organs in the chest cavity were mush. But then all shots are not all nice broad side. I shoot 165 and 180s in my 30 caliber rifles now. | |||
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Best blood trail I ever got was with a 375. Sure he ran 20 yards but blood and lung matter were sprayed for 10'+ at site of hit and a blood trail a blind man could follow. | |||
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I have your ass beat! I shot a small 8 pointer at less than 50 yards with my .375 H&H and that little bastard covered over 70 yards before going over the high bank of a small creek that ran thru the property. At the shot, I saw blood and pieces of lung splash up on the cedar tree from the exit wound. When I found him, he was deader than hell and when I cut open his chest cavity the whole top third of his heart, blood vessles and all were gone and what was left of the heart was hanging loose in the sack, it was not attached to ANY THING, and I was using 235 grain Barnes "X" Flat Base bullets out of my .375 at that point in time. If I have learned nothing else in my almost 50 years of deer hunting, it is that there are "NO" guarantees when to comes to shooting a deer. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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One of Us |
That goes for almost all big game animals. I've shot elk at 400 yards with my 270 shooting 150g Partitions at 3000 fps and seen them routinely drop on the spot. I shot a mule deer doe at 30 yards and watched her walk away as if nothing happened. I didn't take another shot, figured if I missed her at that range good on her. She dropped like a stone 30 yards later. The tree behind her when I shot was covered with blood . Shit happens Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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There simply isn't a "One Size Fits All" when it comes to shooting critters. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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| One of Us |
The craziest thing I've ever run into as far as a deer getting shot was when I was in my early 20s and was on deer patrol at Fort Custer, MI near Battle Creek as a part of our Gun Club running the deer control program there. As I was on patrol I came across a guy that was obviously tracking a deer he had hit. I stopped and asked if he needed help and he said he'd take any help he could get. We followed the decent blood trail for another 100 yards or so after he said he'd already covered at least 100 yards from where the deer was standing at the shot. We found a very nice adult doe and when we dressed her out her heart was blown in half by the 12 gauge slug he had shot her with and yet she had run at least 200 yards. I'll never forget that and I relive it when I read threads like this even though it was almost 50 years ago. | |||
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As inportant as shot placement and calibre choice are, IMHO bullet consruction is equally important. For thirty plus years I shot 165 grain Sierra GameKings with good results in my .308. About 10 years ago a lot of the TV hunting shows were sponsored by Berger Bullets. Although they cost about double what Sierras go for, I succombed to their ads and bought a box of 100. They were extremely accurate so I brought them on a hunting trip to Alabama. I shot a nice buck at 260 yards, and he was DRT. That same trip I shot a doe at 180 yards with the same result. Fast forward to the following year and I shot the biggest buck I’ve ever seen in Alabama at 25 YARDS standing broadside. The high shouldet shot literally blew him off his feet, but he bounced back up and staggered off 100 yatds and lay down. I waited 15 minutes and in failing light, walked up on him. He jumped up and staggered off again. There was a pie plate size pool of blood where he had been laying. As it was approaching dark, I backed out to retrieve him early tge next AM with several of my buddies. Long story shory, we found TWO additional pools of blood, spaced about 100 yards apart. We finally lost his trail when he entered a swamp that was not wade able. I told the landowner about it, and even sent him an email with pictures of the blood pools. He went back several times, and even looked the following spring, but no carcass was ever found. I can only guess that the bullet exploded against his shouldet blade without reaching his vitals but causing heavy bllod loss from his surface wound. I never used Berger Bullets on deer again. Jesus saves, but Moses invests | |||
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| One of Us |
In response to one of the early posts, a double lung shot on a deer will result in death, but no guarantees of a blood trail. Get a thermal monocular - if there's any blood at all and you go there directly it will pop right out at you. | |||
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I have experienced Berger’s blowing up myself. I stopped using them. | |||
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| one of us |
A good blood trailing dog does wonders also. | |||
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| One of Us |
I haven't paid much attention to Bergers since the Hornady Interlocks I reload for 3 different calibers perform perfect at short distances all the way out to about 300 yards, whchh is my max on animals due to lousy eyesight. Aren't Bergers designed for long distances where the bullet is slowing down, but at shorter distances is probably traveling so fast that is why you guys have experienced what you mentioned. I experienced the same thing with Hornady SSTs blowing up one year on a cow elk and mule deer buck and that was the end of them and I went to their Interlocks and haven't looked back. | |||
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