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Neck shots are great. There are ample vital spots to take out. The vertebrae, carotid artery, the jugular, phrenic nerve, ad nauseum. It is a shot for a stationary animal, calm hand with a good rest and an accurate rifle. Which is what hunting is all about, waiting for the right shot at the right time and not just plugging away at the first opportunity with the biggest cannon you can handle. | |||
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Code4 how dare you! enter a thread by telling the truth. | |||
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Well I actually wanted to hear Ravenr's position on this, I guess that's it...surprises me a bit actually. I've seen elk wounded with unsuccessful neck shots from rifles while hunting, and I've only been Elk hunting 6 times....I wouldn't shoot one in the neck unless I was with a guide who felt comfortable in me doing so...hopefully can go with Ravenr one day! I'd love to hear from someone who is a competition shooter give us the scoop on how accurately the 'top guns' can actually shoot in real world shooting positions, i.e. from a stand rested, not rested, off of ground prone, bi-pods, propped against side of tree etc. I know for me it is a big difference, in some instances, I KNOW I can hold as MOA, in others--NFW! I think head shots are very rarely a good choice personally. Maybe I look at this funny, but I would be more prone to try one on a squirrel or rabbit or groundhog than a deer or other game of that size......probably should rethink that...... | |||
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As -- "A know nothing keyboard-Hunter expert - aka Rookie!" I realize I have no status here. Growing up on the farm/ranch head shots were the norm- Squirrel, Rabbit, Deer, etc. Essentially, killing was a daily part of life, you got efficient at it. A "Natural Born Killer" my great aunt called me. Just before she handed me her well worn 1906 .22 to have forever. A gun that literally fed a family through the Depression. It's really quite simple for me-- head shots are not for everyone and at times not for me. The basis of one of the threads that got the flaming started was really about culling, at least as I interpreted it. Culling in my experience (I know just a rookie's ideas ) is rarely if ever undertaken by an inexperienced marksman/hunter. But then, what do I know? (I blew up a little in Eland Slayers thread-- I apologized for that acrimony to him- and now- to anyone else who felt/feels offended.) Circumstance, condition, preparation, instinct and most of all experience come into play as the decision to shoot or not shoot is made. As I age my eyes fail, my strength declines, my steadiness wavers-- I head shoot less. Last year only two culls fell to the 257AI. Also, I no longer manage the 8000+ acres I once did. (divorces are funny that way ) And therefore,I no longer harvest exotics for market meat by suppressed weapon and head shot -- so as not to get the adrenalin up before processing. The central and south Texas night culling I have not participated in since 2006. More importantly ,I do not remember any of us here calling anyone out for NOT taking head shots. Likewise I do not recall anyone promoting head shots for Joe Average (or less)Hunter. (no wait , HC actually did) "In fact, why limit Head Shots to those with "practice, training, confidence"??? If you have a firearm, just Head Shoot away." Whether in jest or not, no one else did. Taking a head shot comes down to a lot of situational and skill variables - AND personal choice. As to conversations here in the forums , when a question is asked by someone earnestly seeking advice on a specific projectile for a specific role in a specific task-- a specific and reasoned answer is a natural sequence of events. Or am I Wrong here too? As to hunting -legalities, ethics, accepted procedures or equipment- whether it be calibre, range, use of dogs, bait, feeders, scents, calls, decoys,-- etc- ad infinitum. If it's legal--it comes down to choice. (You can equate that with personal ethics) I have never advised anyone to take a head shot that is not experienced with the weapon and practiced or accomplished on varmints,smaller game, moving targets etc. BUT-- it is still THEIR CHOICE. Thank God and the Founders for that- Now back to the regularly scheduled bickering already in progress on this channel. | |||
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After having been in a few hunting camps both as a client and as one of the camp staff or one of the guides, I am always amazed at how many of these folks that claim to be such great shots, can miss game completely or gut shoot them or shoot them in the ass at incredibly close ranges. I guees I need to find where all these experts go to find animals that stop in precisely the right place so that they can do the precision/surgical shot placement. I guess all I have ever hunted were critters to bent on self preservation that they presented anything but perfect shot opportunities. Chalk up another future topic for the Ethics crowd concerning when a shot should be taken or passed on. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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fish why would my response surprize you? i'm not condoning or condeming head shots i just felt that Code4's post had a great ring of truth in it. i was raised by a woman who could shoot and took most of the game in her life with head and neck shots with her trusty 30-30 winchester and iron sights. it wasn't till later in life with eyesight factors, were dad and i able to talk her into putting a scope on her rifle and shooting stuff in the ribs. there is a place for head and neck shots, culling,dark timber hunting,or potting a meat doe come to mind.60-80 yd shots i havn't killed a animal with this shot in a long long time. mostly because they don't bleed out well and the lung shot allows the heart to continue beating until that "blood pressure" is gone. i have in my life seen 2 cow elk missing their lower jaws (and put an end to their suffering) but i have seen more than i can remember with a leg swinging and even a couple 3 legged elk who recovered from their wounds. the original post on this thread was pointed at the more dramatic straight down,piled right there head shot,but more for concern that the animal lung shot might cover some ground in its "death run" there are many situations to reason thru when you drop the safety on your weapon in preperation to taking a shot at something and sometimes the head/neck is the right choice and sometimes not. experience and shooting ability,should play a huge role in the decision. actually Duggaboy said it far better than i and i will throw my hat in the ring with him. | |||
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You're posting from Texas and you have no idea where to go to find animals that make a head shot easy? Really??? There's more feeders in one county in Texas probably than the whole state I live in (Minnesota). Or weren't you aware that people did that sort of thing in Texas? Gimme a freaking break! If you don't understand that bow hunters virtually only take shots that would be duck soup shots with a rifle, and they kill a lot of deer every year, then maybe I can see where you are coming from. | |||
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You can't see a damn thing because your too full of shit. Bowhunters lose lots of game annually, in fact nearly every bowhunter I have talked to or dealt with allows themselves about a 10% loss ratio. How many times have you hunted Texas? I hunt over feeders here in Texas and I don't take head shots. The folks I hunt with don't take head shots and the folks we guide on our hunts are instructed not to take head shots, because we don't want messed up or lost trophies because someone thinks they are good. As I said elsewhere I have tried a few head shots, some worked out perfect, some did not, but that does not matter, I have killed more than my share of critters on this planet and fully 98% of them were done with heart/lung/shoulder shots and while I had some tracking to do in many cases, I have not ever lost one to a heart/lung/shoulder hit, regardless of the rifle caliber I was using. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Dude! Get your act together. If you can kille a deer with a bow at close range you can sure do it with a rifle. It would seem to me that you are the one with the problem seeing things and comprehending what they are seeing. There are many places where baiting deer is perfectly legal and in many of those circumstances head shots are practiced. Here in Minnesota, baiting is illegal except for specific situations, like population control and in those cases many of the shooters practice head shots exclusively because they do not want the deer moving at all after the shot. It's actually fairly common. Grow up and think things through a little bit before you bad mouth someone. | |||
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It may be common in Minnesota, but not in Alabama. Joe A. | |||
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I would actually be surprised if a fair number of municipalities did not have contracts with people to hold the deer population down. You have a fair number of deer there. There is not a lot of publicity about it here, but there are a lot of places that do it including Minneapolis. | |||
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Simply because, in my admittedly limited experience, the neck shot has been obviously unsuccesful on some Elk I have seen...it was my interpretation that there is a lot of non-lethal area in an Elk's neck that bullet could pass through and not kill it. I have thought that folks who have had high kill percentages with neck shots have been fortunate, as I have not seen that many Elk (while hunting them) and even with my limited sample quantity, I have seen Elk which were obviously wounded and not killed with shots in their necks. This experience lead me to believe that it is just a way higher percentage of a kill by shooting into the chest cavity--I will state that as my firm opinion on whitetails, as I have a very high sample quantity on them, but I certainly don't know all I want to about Elk--and appropriate shots for them. I think you are spot on about the details of code4's post--seems simple too..lot's of lethal spots in the neck--and yeah Duggaboy did do a great job of encapsulating things! | |||
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Several years back, I helped cull for an entity that covered a large area, which at times encompassed some city limits and incorporated areas. We use suppressed weapons and night vision. The TPWD and City PD's as well as SO's were aware of the situation. I do not know if any of those cities or incorporated areas that were encompassed now contract on their own separately, or if the same entity continues to provide the service in those areas. (Edit: It has been since the mid 90's since I participated) DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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I have hunted the east all my life (so far) and I've made @ 25 hunting trips west. I guess I've been lucky in that I've never seen any of these maimed animals walking around that people use to prove their point. I've found dead deer on my place in WV. (Where the "sound shot" is practiced) Dead from a gun shot wound. But then, when you're poaching, I don't think you're gonna spend a lot of time tracking up an animal. I've killed 12 elk in 15 DIY trips to WY. I've killed a whole bunch of WTs and a lot of mulies. I'm not pounding my chest about that, I'm merely pointing out that this ain't my first rodeo. In addition to the animals I've killed, I seen a whole bunch in the wild. I've never seen an elk, much less a WT, with blood running down his neck; I've never seen a deer with half his face gone. I have seen a total of 1 antelope that was obviously gut shot. As I said, I guess I've been lucky. Yes, I've helped track down game that had been poorly hit. Johnny Boxayear shooting for the big middle and missing. They have all been animals that were hit too far back (that's not a flame, it's just the way it was) I don't know where these times (15 seconds) and distances (never more than 50 yards) come from. I don't know if I hunt more tenacious deer or not. I shot a deer with a 12ga shotgun and solid ball. The ball cut a groove in his heart you could lay two fingers in (it didn't rupture any of the valves), it caught one lung and continued on into the guts. That deer ran a whole hell of a lot further than any 50 yards. When he died, he laid down almost under a big fallen log. Luckily, he had run thru a little swamp and gotten wet so's I could smell the deer before I found him. Another deer was knocked sprawling with a 12ga ball, he jumped up and ran like a scalded dog. His sterum was blown almost loose and he had a lung and part of his heart hanging out and was spraying blood waist high as he ran thru a cane brake. Before I could track up to him, another fellow shot him. The distance had to be at least 3 or 4 hundred yards. The other fellow said the deer was moving so well that he didn't know he'd been shot until he got him on the ground. Now, if you'd like, we can talk about heated up, adrenaline tough meat as opposed to venison that is put to bed right on the spot. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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What makes anyone think that if a hunter can't hit the chest cavity and hits the deer in the guts, he can hit something as small as the neck vertebrae or the brain? As a retired F&G CO, I can rcount sevreral deer and elk that I had to destroy after the hunting season because someone shot the lower jaw off of it and it was starving to death. That is not a pretty picture. If both lungs on a deer or elk are hit with a reasonable quality bullet it isn't going far and has only seconds to live. 465H&H | |||
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While not germane to the Argument-- I would slightly alter your assessment- "If both lungs are hit along with significant vascular damage resulting in hemo- and/or pneumo-thorax on a deer or elk with a reasonable quality bullet it isn't going far and has only seconds to live." DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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465H&H if you took the "several deer and elk" and divided by your years of service what would that number be? and if you compared that number to the number of dead deer and elk you checked. was it a frequent occurance? i'll agree its not pretty. | |||
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I like to shoot elk in the high shoulder area. This shot breaks the spine, drops the animal and still maintains a margin of error. I will also shoot elk in the base of the neck if the shot is close. I would never head shoot an animal as I simply can't think of any good reason to do it. I'm also a firm believer in large premium quality bullets. I shoot 200grn TSX bullets out a .300 RUM and the elk I've lung shot just tip over anyway after a few seconds. A high shoulder shot with this round breaks the spine and invariably destroys both lungs as well. About as dead as dead gets. I went on an antelope hunt last year here in Colorado and a friend shot a doe in the head. Made photo time a little awkward. ______________________ I don't shoot elk at 600 yards for the same reasons I don't shoot ducks on the water, or turkeys from their roosts. If this confuses you then you're not welcome in my hunting camp. | |||
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Code4 has stated the requirements for making a neck shot. Like belling the cat,now we just have to do it. (No insult to Code4 -he is stating perfectly what it takes to make the shot) Talking only about a white tail - even shooting from a stand -when the deer looks away (which is when to raise the rifle)there is no neck shot available. (He really twists his neck around to look all around) I never could understand why to take a neck shot on a slim necked animal like a deer when there is a whole body to aqim at. Just my thoughts and I'm sure any number of guys have made neck shots.(It is a very narrow target and usually always moving - I always preferred to shoot at the "barn door" of lungs and shoulder. | |||
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I think Slowpoke Slim pretty well summed it up. A deer's brain is a little larger than a golf ball, his heart and lungs provide a broadside target about the size of a 8 1/2" x 11" sheet of paper. An elk's brain is a little larger than a tennis ball, and his heart and lungs are about double the size of a deer's. Assuming the average "off the shelf" hunting rifle shooting factory ammo will group 3 shots in 1 1/2" off the bench at the range, the BEST it will do is hit a deer's brain at 100 yds. Add to that the excitement of the hunt, the hunter breathing heavily, weather conditions, possibly not the steadiest rest, etc, etc, and the brain shot is a very small target. I have been camps with three hunters that tried head shots and lost their animals. Two were mule deer bucks, the other was a cow elk. Each of the hunters said they were aiming for the animal's brain, the animals all fell at the shot, then got up and ran away. One of the hunters said he could see the buck's jaw hanging down as it ran away. A lethal neck shot is not much better. Visualize a target the size of a man's arm for the neck vertebrae of an elk, and of a small woman's arm for the vertebrae of a deer. Place that somewhere inside the hair and muscle of the animal's neck, and again you have a questionable target. While butchering a whitetail buck one year, I found a .35 caliber mushroomed bullet lodged against a neck vertebrae of the buck. The shot was a year or more old, and had completely healed. I shoot regularly and with most of my hunting rifles, I feel confident that I could usually hit a golf ball at 100 yds -- from a solid rest. Move that golf ball past 100 yds, or shoot from a field position, and that ball is pretty safe. However, even from a field shooting position, I can regularly hit a 8 1/2" x 11" paper target out to 400 yds. NRA Endowment Life Member | |||
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You can support whatever conclusion you want if you bend the numbers the way you want. A whitetail's brain box is just under twice the size of a golf ball the small way (laterally), It is longer and it is deeper if you include the brain stem. If you keep shots to fifty yards or in things get manageable. A reasonable rest is all that's necessary. When you consider that the wound channel will be a lot bigger than bullet diameter, you gain a little more margin. Can you make a mistake? Of course. Happens all the time shooting heart/lung too doesn't it? | |||
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I can't compare numbers as you requested because it would be comparing apples to oranges. Let me try to give you some estimates though that might be helpful. During the 5 1/2 years that I worked as a CO (game warden). I had to destroy roughly 10 or 12 deer and elk that had their lower jaws shot off or had eyes knocked out. Also I can remember two that had been shot in the throat area and had trouble breathing as well as starving because the trachea and esophagus were severed and they couldn't swallow. These were all post season animals meaning that they lived for quite a while even though they were starving or near death when found by me or reported to me. I never found a deer or elk wounded in the chest that needed to be destroyed although some were destroyed that had shot off legs. That was a difficult decision for me as some times a animal will survive quite well on three legs and being a softy I probably didn't destroy some that I should have. Maybe three or four as I remember. The vast majority of animals I checked were at check stations where they had been harvested by hunters and were still alive when shot. Although some showed head shot trauma, we didn't ask whether that damage was caused by finishing shots or were as they found them. A few hunters, maybe eight or ten/year would tell us that the animal had been shot before they killed it. I guess that info is almost worthless since I really didn't keep track. I was looking at several hundred deer and elk per year over 30 years. My impression is that more animals are lost wounded from body shots then head or neck shots but that they die quicker. The reason there are more lost to body shots is that most hunters use that shot rather than head shots. I suspect but can't prove that a higher percentage of animals are wounded and lost from head and neck than the percentage lost from body shots. 465H&H | |||
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So that means you found two a year, right? You understand that, while not pretty, those numbers have no significance at all. How many are killed each year falling off a mountain? Or getting mired in the mud of a wallow? Until I got tough, I found that many deer each year that had been gun shot by poachers. When they make a shot and it isn't a DRT, they don't follow it up. How long it took for the deer to die, I don't know. One had been gut shot and I'm sure died a long, lingering death. But one deer doesn't compute and I would never use an example of one to try to prove my point. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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wasbeeman, Of course the number is not large enough to affect the total population but what we are discussing here is whether you are more likely to wound and lose a deer or elk with a head shot that misses the brain versus vs the chance of losing an animal with a chest shot that misses the heart. The heart and brain are very roughly the same size. If you miss the heart you will most likely hit the lungs. Miss the brain by the same margin and you wound the animal with a good probability of it suffering a lingering death. It is simple to me the heart/lung area offers a much larger vital area than the brain and thus is more forgiving if the shot isn't placed quite right. That seems obvious. 465H&H | |||
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seen a few deer get their jaws blown off, I can only imagine the excrutiating death they suffered. Thirst, septic infection, etc.. Head shots are not a good idea in my book. | |||
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Actually, if you were to read my first post, I said that a head shot was too iffy. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Not sure miles58, but I am guessing I am just as old if not older than you and seen a few more rodeos than you have. Head shots as I have said a couple of times are really impressive, But Only When They Work. Maybe your the one that needs to grow up and do a tad bit more hunting. Why don't you go back thru all the posts and see how many folks are dubious about head shots as compared to those that think they are the be all end all. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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that is certainly true - and, it cuts both ways. | |||
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Enter the ABSOLUTE proof of an example of one. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Posted 09 August 2010 05:34 Hide Post quote: Grow up and think things through a little bit before you bad mouth someone. Not sure miles58, but I am guessing I am just as old if not older than you and seen a few more rodeos than you have. Head shots as I have said a couple of times are really impressive, But Only When They Work. Maybe your the one that needs to grow up and do a tad bit more hunting. Why don't you go back thru all the posts and see how many folks are dubious about head shots as compared to those that think they are the be all end all. | |||
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I started killing my own game in '55. I started loading my own ammunition in '56. When it's appropriate I shoot animals in the head and have done so ever since I started. I have never lost one. Ever. I have never missed enough that the animal was not killed instantly. Ever. I have done this my way with 100% success for more than enough years to listen to anything some clown who has neither the skill nor the discipline to do what I do wants to pee down his leg about. Before I was ten years old I had been taught to load and shoot well enough to hold an inch at 200 yards with a M-70 .243. I have yet to shoot an unwounded deer at even that range though. You may not be able to manage it. That's fine but don't be bad mouthing me over what you can't do. | |||
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YEP i hope there's room at your campfire miles58 cuz...i believe i'll pull up a chair. | |||
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There's room for everyone. Including Crazyhorse. My father and uncle taught me what they felt I needed to know and when I could demonstrate I had learned, it was my license to go where I wanted and hunt by my self. I taught my son the same things. He's killed four deer. Three at less than fifty feet, one at 25 yards. Total distance traveled after the shot, eight feet. All perfect head shots. He will absolutely do the best he can. If it won't be perfect he will take them through the chest and he's been trained so he knows where the parts lie inside so when he shoots one there it will die as quickly and humanely as possible. | |||
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Only recently have I become confident enough in my marksmanship to try head/neck shots. The last 2 whitetail bucks I have shot have been in the neck and they did not take a step. Also shot a doe in the head. If you have the opportunity and the ability this is a great way to take game. Prior to that I used heart/lung shots and a well placed bullet has always worked very quickly. I have taken 1 bull elk and it was with a 180gr AB through the heart. He only went about 20 yards before piling up. Both shots work. Its just a matter preference and opportunity. A good kill is a good kill. | |||
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I did a head shot on this moose and it went right dowm...but then got right back up. http://forums.accuratereloadin.../9421043/m/325101929 IMO if you dont hit bone on head or neck shots then it is simply a flesh wound. I have shot a couple deer in the neck that were DRT. One was a buck at about 15 feet with my 300 win mag. I aimed for the chest and thought " what are you thinking?" , then I aimed for the throat and all was well. Hate to think what a chest shot at 15 feet would be like with a 165 grain bullet from the 300 mag. Head on would have probably lost both front quarters. I will shoot game where I feel it will kill them and that is usually the boiler room that I feel most comfortable. If neck head is your favorite spot and you are good at it then by all means do it. I dont think most could do it though. -------------------- THANOS WAS RIGHT! | |||
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I hunt moose in Alaska (where I live) and will never take a neck shot again. The first moose I ever shot was on the neck, and I could never find it after it ran down a mountain. What i do is to use enough gun, and shoot them through the heart/lungs, usually when they aren't aware of my presence (I am out of their view when I shoot my rifle). Most of the moose I have killed have dropped to one shot, except for three that walked perhaps 25 yards after the shot. I hear hunters say that deer do run fast and far, but moose usually walk toward water, or just bed down when wounded lethally. After that first moose, I have followed these guidelines: http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov...fm?adfg=hunting.shot | |||
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I have shot them both ways. A neck shot will send a deer straight to the ground, but it is a much smaller target. But with enough horsepower, a hit just close to the CNS will send the straight to the ground. Still, I usually chose a chest shot because the kill zone is bigger, even if they run a while after getting hit. A neck shot deer is a heck of a lot easier to clean, too. We put down a deer on my property that had it's lower jaw shot off. Sand Creek November 29 1864 | |||
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Show me a guy who "always" shoots them in the neck or head and I will show you a hunter who has lost a lot more wounded animals than a hunter who has shot all his animals through the front shoulder. There's a reason folks don't shoot cape buffalo "in the neck", but in the shoulder, heart, lung region. Yes a neck or head shot may kill a deer or elk instantly, then it may not. Hit a big bull elk a bit low in the neck (through the brisket) and you have a lost trophy (the good news is he will probably fully recover). Shoot him through the front shoulder and into the heart and lungs and he will be on the wall. Animals shot through the heart and lungs don't suffer greatly, they die quickly and you recover the animal. The purpose of shooting an animal at the end of the hunt is to "make sure" you kill it as quickly and humanely as possible and that you recover the animal. Neck and head shots are about hunter ego and not about harvesting game. Obviously the exception is elephant, where the goal and the ethics of the hunt is to get close enough that a brain shot will kill the animal immediately. But any animal smaller than an elephant and that is shot at more than 15 yards, should be shot through the vital heart lung area IMHO. | |||
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Between the deer I have killed, and those I have seen killed, the totals are in the hundreds. I have never seen a head shot I had to chase down afterward. I have however had to chase down lots of shoulder shots that weren't good enough. Why would you make two such ignorant statements? I take great pride in destroying the heart and lungs of deer out between 1 and 2 hundred yards. It require understanding the anatomy of the animal and it's position to do the best job possible when you are looking through optics that flatten the FOV, and is actually much more difficult to do perfectly than popping one in the head at fifty feet which I do not feel is much of an accomplishment at all. Maybe you have met someone who thought a head shot was a big deal. I spent enough time on a farm that killing animal with head shots is just making meat. I would no more consider shooting a quiet deer in the shoulder at close range than I would killing a beef with a shoulder shot. If you're going to generally condemn because of an opinion I'd make sure the opinion matches the facts. | |||
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lol - just like custer on the hill, still wondering where all the damn indians came from. | |||
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