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Got the latest Rifle. There's ol' Seyfreid singing the praises of some old, sporterized Dutch Mannlicher by Henry Atkin. Nice enough rifle, I'd say. Sho 'nuff, Russ has to let his mouth run away and make a fool of himself. He says he detests detachable magazines in hunting rifles. No real reason given. The he goes on to rave about the five round stripper clips of the Mannlicher, without which you have a nice single shot. He claims the clips keep the ammo in nice bunches in his pockets, and that it takes no time at all to insert and remove the clips from the rifle. He even says they hardly take up any room in his pocket. Well, I said, let's give the geezer the benefit of the doubt. I pull out my Sako 75 out of the safe and look over its detachable magazine. It does keep the ammo organized in my pocket. It takes but a few seconds to stick it in the rifle, and even less to remove it. The only difference between the Sako magazine and the Mannlicher clip is that the clip is the Sako is a true double column mag, while the Mannlicher clip is a single stack, so it is slimmer. In other words, a detachable magazine does EVERYTHING Seyfried's beloved clip does, with none of the drawbacks, yet he DETESTS detachable magazines. He also mentions how boat tailed hunting bullets are an abomination, and how the boat tail makes the bullet more prone to break up. Silly me, here I thought that a bullet's internal construction gave it its integrity and that a boat tail (a profile feature) only had an effect on aerodynamics. Yep, Russ Seyfreid is an idiot. With such drivel, I think I may have bought the last issue of Rifle. | ||
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There is a ton load of people in this world that I would say could be in the idiot class-by my way of thinking Seyfreid is not one of them!! I'd list a few of them if you like, but I should be polite. "GET TO THE HILL" Dog [ 07-02-2003, 21:57: Message edited by: Mark R Dobrenski ] | |||
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Orion 1 I "think" I know why Ross says the things he says. First on the boat tailed bullets. Most boat tailed bullets are traditiional cup and draw, thus not "premium" type bullets. Also the boat tail design can contribute to jacket core seperation because as the core "squirts" foward there is less grip on the lead by the jacket because of the taper of the boat tail. It does not have to be that way ie boattail X bullets [no core] and the Nosler Accubond bonded core bullets may lesson or eliminate the problem. but his statement is correct for most boattail bullets. On the Dutch Mannlicher, if you ever get to handle one of these rifles you will see why He likes it so much. I handled two of them one time and almost bought them both, they feel alive. Now to the clips, you are right no clip, she's a single shot. However if you leave on a hunting trip with all your ammo loaded in clips, that will not be a problem. The clip will not fall out at a bad time like a detachable magazine can. Thus the clips will not become lost, like a detachable magazine can. Also detachable magazine's can become bent in carrying or handling, and not work. So there is truth in what he has said. I too have hunted with detachable magazine rifles. I have never had one fall out or get lost...but I have always had at least two spares in my traveling kit and always carried one of them on my person loaded and ready to go. Which solved any problems they "might" seem to have. Just remember what can go wrong some times will. Recently a friends Remington 700 BDL floor plate broke completely off the rifle. ![[Mad]](images/icons/mad.gif){kind=icon} Luckly I had some duck tape and we taped it securely to his rifle and he could continue to function. | |||
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Ross has a LOT of real world experience, and I like to read his stuff. He definately has his opinions, but they are usually based on good, or hard experience. He also comes up with some of the coolest old guns around. ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} DGK | |||
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quote:Time will tell with regards to stronger bullets that happen to have a plastic tip. The Nosler Accubond and the Swift Scirocco come to mind. Never said anything negative about the Atkin-Mannlicher. In fact, I thought it was pretty neat. His comments favoring clips and bashing det mags are simple bullshit. If you go back and read the article, you will notice Seyfreid says the clip dops out the bottom when you push forward on a button on the fron of the trigger guard. Guess what? CZ 550s with detachable magazines work EXACTLY THE SAME WAY. Detachable mags can become bent and not work? Please, where do you get this stuff from? I don't know which rifles you are talking about, but you ain't talking about a CZ 452, Sako 75, or AR-15, the three rifles I own with DMs. You would have to stand on one to bend one. Simply dropping them does nothing to them. Besides, your implication is that a Mannlicher clip would survive handling that would bend a detachable mag. I don't think so. Why would you carry loaded spare mags on a hutning trip? Can't you reload them from the top through an open bolt? Sakos you can (double colum, remember?). I'd like nothing more than to book an elk hunt with him and show up with an AR-10. That will send his blood pressure sky high. | |||
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quote:I'm not into hero worship. Seyfreid's word ain't law to me, and I will call bullshit when I see it regardless of who's pandering it. | |||
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Orion 1 I was simply stating why I "thought" he said what he said. But I will add this; I hear from time to time that people have been hunting and "discovered" there detachable mag has fallen out and they do not know where. ![[Embarrassed]](images/icons/blush.gif){kind=icon} Or they "forgot it" and left it at home.I have seen many [especially AR15] magazines that have become "no good" not only from bent lips but from "spreading open" , and have seen many magazines come loose at the welds. Most detachable magazines are fairly cheaply made [one exception being the Sterling Submachine gun magazines] Detachable magazines are a perishable item, take my advice get a couple of spares. As to carrying spare detachable magazines for hunting rifles, not all hunting rifles with detachable magazines can be loaded "from the top" thus a spare mag is a much quicker reload, not to mention if your mag in the gun falls out and/or gets lost, courtsey of Mr. Murphy. As to taking all your ammo already loaded in the Manlicher clips, the clips fall out of the rifle on the last round chambered, and are considered expendible in the same fashion as M-1 Garand clips durring WWII. It was not unususal that ammo for rifles that needed clips came FROM THE FACTORY already loaded in clips, much like most of the ammo for WWII rifles. Remember the concept of "clips" is from an earlier era, before the wide spread use of detachable mags. I will admit using Garand "clips" and even 5 round "stripper clips" for a M1-A makes carrying ammo pretty handy. | |||
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Orion1, the answer to your question is YES. I think your observations are correct. Since the "clip" on the Mammlicher does fall out when the last round chambers, it is much worse than a detachable mag. You are left with a single shot rifle on purpose. You have to carry spares, as with most millitary rifles, because if you hunt in any type of grass, the dropped one is lost or dirty. A lot of people don't prefer the boattail bullets, but I have yet to see a study that the design kills less effectively. Lots of speculation and "well it breaks up, so it must", but no good hard data. Another modern myth. The debate is still, do you want the energy in or through the animal. I do both. Breakup, multiple fragments flying thither and yawn creating multiple wounds, or expand, go through and give me a blood trail. They both work. I shoot the most accurate bullet for the rifle and go from there. To abandon a bullet because of shape is non-sense. (Or Ross) | |||
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Detachable magazines suck for a hunting rifle , and that's no bullshit . And boat-tails do lose their core much easier , unless some feature is added to secure the core to the jacket. I don't know about a dutch-manliccher , but Ross is right on the other 2 counts . | |||
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Seyfried is a lot of things to a lot of people, "idiot" is not one of them. Don't know the man personally but IMO he's probably forgotten more than I'll ever know about firearms, particularly the oldie goldies. If I could just figure out how he paper patches round balls so neatly... ![[Cool]](images/icons/cool.gif){kind=icon} He knows the real world of big and small game hunting on several continents. I've yet to hear him "speculate". He speaks from experience I think. Opinionated? Absolutely. Arrogant? Perhaps. An idiot? Try another adjective Mr. Orion. | |||
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The fact that you don't agree with him doesn't make him an idiot. That you would pick one of his articles to go off on and call him an idiot does make you kinda suspect however. | |||
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I take "Rifle" and "Handloader" magazines largely because of Ross. I consider him to be among the best if not the best gun writer today, largely because he will tell us what is not good as well as what is good. And he knows what he is talking about. The only person I know of who speaks with as much authority in my view is AR's own Ray Atkinson. I called Ross a while back to ask a brief question about .375 bullets for buffalo. It ended up being a longish, very pleasant conversation, and very helpful. Nice guy. | |||
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I don't hero worship Mr. Seyfried, have never met him and likely never will, but he has shot more game and seen more game shot than most of us, as well as having an inquiring mind into guns and related topics. Does he have prejudices, that may not be wholly grounded in hard fact, absolutely. The same as most of us who have handled guns and hunted with them for years do, but until I think someone has as much experience as he does or can absolutely show he is wrong, I'll tend to listen to and respect most of his opinions. He gets paid for them, most of us don't. Do I always agree with him, no, of course not, but that doesn't necessarily make me right and him wrong. And it certainly doesn't make him an idiot. I would suggest that calling him one is more questionable than his opinions. | |||
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I'll go along with Ross...I think the idiot shoe is on the wrong foot, sorry Orion1 your wearing it...but I won't try to convience you your right or wrong... | |||
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quote:I totally agree. To whomever... What Ross said is his own personal view point. That others (like Orion1) take offense to it simply because they disagree with it dosen't make Seyfried wrong. Its a matter of differing view points. Why be offended by that? Why try to topple Seyfried when you don't have a foot to stand on? (That you have "the shoe" is, well... ) ~~~Suluuq | |||
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Orion 1 posted: Silly me, here I thought that a bullet's internal construction gave it its integrity and that a boat tail (a profile feature) only had an effect on aerodynamics. It just might be that having the boat tail puts limitations on how the internal construction can be done. I am sure Hornday etc. could provide an answer. As to detachable magazines, my guess is that I have done more shooting in the bush with them than most of this forum's members.....a combination of being Australian and using the 303 SMLE. In short, lots of shots fired in the bush. My vote would be that the detachable is perfect but I do base that on the SMLE. Althopugh I have also used the Kricos but not nearly to the same extent as the SMLE. Having said that, when you have lots of things to shoot you will not notice an odd fuck up or two. I don't remember a fuck up with the SMLE but since each animal amounts to less than fuck all with our shooting then there may have been some problems but we simply don't remember them. Sometimes a situation that allows lots of experience can mean the finer points were missed But is it true that all rifles with a floor plate could be desribed as "detachable". If one reads the African forum then one is warned that the whole contents of the magazine could come loose. Mike | |||
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Hmmmm.... Let's see.... Who should I label as "the idiot?" The guy who: Was a PH in Africa for over a decade. Built many rifles. Won the IPSC world champion title. Writes for a good gun magazine. Guides for elk. Has a detailed knowledge of many firearms. Has probably not earned a livign outside hunting/shooting for many years. Lets everyone, everywhere know who he is so they can personally critique his opinions.....etc etc etc Or the guy that posts anonymously on an internet forum, and 95% of his posts seem to be just bashing others? I think I know who the real idiot is... ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} When Orion 1 has half the PROVEN experience Seyfried does, I'll take his opinion on detachable mags, boattail bullets or anything else.. I think he's just another one of Mike Boyd's buddies! ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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Is Seyfried an idiot? I don't think so. Seyfreid did an article in G and Ammo years ago that taught me how to deal with recoil. Thats right one little write up and I was on my way. Several years later I gave the same old magazine to a couple of friends. Worked for them to. We learned about bullet construction,the 416 Rigby, the 340 Wby, the 270 Win, the 585 Niati, bullet casting, African hunting and on and on. Seyfried gets right to the point no willy nilly pissing around. He may not be perfect but I would rather read something Ross has written than anything else. Jamie | |||
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hmmm. One can load a Manlicher or a Mauser, or an Enfield or a Springfield, etc wihout a stripper clip. All the clip does is speed up the process. So if you lose or bend your stripper clip you can indivisually load rounds into the magazine, it'll just take more time. I don't like detachable mags either. jorge | |||
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Ross is tops in my book and I rarely if ever disregard his advice. IMO we're lucky to have him dispensing his knowledgeable advice for all of us to use.... Detachable mags are an abomination. They're wonderful in concept but I've personally met several hunters in the woods that have lost their mags "somewhere" and I used to work in a sporting goods store where we sold a bunch of mags to hunters that lost theirs. I prefer the hinged floorplate for quick unloading when leaving the woods but even those can fly open dumping my ammo on the ground. Since I've hunted a large part of my life with single shots and I practice all year for that shot or two I take during hunting season, I rarely ever need more than one shot but would like follow up shots to be firmly nestled in my magazine ready for use if needed. I think Ross is right on the money on this one and am not surprized that he hit the nail on the head once again. $bob$ | |||
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I reckon Ross Seyfried is great.........he invented the .585 Nyati | |||
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quote:Not the Dutch Mannlicher specifically mentioned by Seyfreid, if you believe him. I figured all the butt-kissers and apologists would be around shortly and I wasn't disappointed. | |||
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I stand corrected! I didn't know that about that particular rifle. Boy, that would be bad news if you were in the middle of a firefight and have to go looking for clips. I still hate rifles( hunting) with detachable mags though! jorge | |||
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I won't get into the Ross discussion, but I will say I totally agree with him on the issue of clips. I don't know the number of guns I have seen where the clip falls out on recoil, or one feeds correctly and one doesn't. One common bit of advise I see everywhere for DG hunting is to tape the clip in so it won't fall out at an inopportune moment. I can't believe the statement made as to "why would you want to carry extra clips when hunting?" If you don't, why in the world would you put up with the weight and potential problems of a clip? | |||
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So Mr. O everyone who doesn't agree with you are butt kissers, am I correct? Your an idiot, I'm not a butt kisser because I agree with most of what Ross Seyfried says and not some internet guru without a name, c'mon, get real... You have obtained troll status. | |||
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This topic starts off with a rude and uncalled for title by Orion that is not necessary and unproductive. Just because some clip or magazine may be better for you than someone else is not the way to get an intellegent discussion going. Ross S. is a rifleman and like the brilliant title that we all carry here on AR he is "one of us". Let's keep the name calling down. There is no moderator here and therefore our behavior reflects on us and not on some editor who saved us from such remarks. Thanks for listening. | |||
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I don't like clip rifles. I reckon that makes me an idiot and a butt kisser. I don't try and convince people that clips are bad, because it is only a personal opinion. I'm not sure what that makes me, but I suspicion it ain't good! A couple of years ago I was talking with Mr. Seyfreid specifically about the fact that I felt that "Handloader" in particular and "Rifle" to a lessor degree had regressed considerably and had become rather elementary in comparison to years back. I commented that I felt the articles were not nearly as deep and advanced, and that I no longer subscribed for that reason. I suggested that most of the information being presented could be found in previous articles if one started going back in years. He pleasantly agreed with me wholeheartedly. He went on to explain politely how he had to publish to and address the major population, and that there just wasn't enough demand by guys who had been loading, etc. for 40 or 50 years to justify the advanced type articles. He emphasized that he understood my point very well and that he indeed was not in disagreement with me. The point is that as I sat their and visited with the man about the shortcomings of his magazines, he was friendly, polite, and addressed my complaint with a good explanation. We went on to visit for some time about things of mutual interest. I rarely read his magazines any more, but be assured, the man is no idiot! He is also a class act. [ 07-04-2003, 03:18: Message edited by: Arts ] | |||
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| <allen day> |
Orion, you sound like a kid who hasn't hunted anything but deer before close to home......... AD | ||
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One day I called Ross out of the blue looking for information on the .460 G&A. Who knows what I interuppted him doing but he took time to answer my questions and give me some information. Is he perfect - no. Is he a good, knowledgible, hunter and shooter - definitely. I think we need more people like him. | |||
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Minor comment regarding his disdain for boat tails as hunting bullets. Their propensity for spitting out the core as discussed above is one issue. Perhaps the bonded core bullets address that but another issue is one of stability and the capability to penetrate without tumbling or deflecting much. Boat tails often tumble and deflect, the old reliable round nose flat base designs don't for the most part. I assume that his desire for that kind of terminal performance was acquired in Africa where things can bite back. Just an observation... | |||
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| <Long Shot> |
Orion, Ross offered his opinion, and you disagreed. I know who Ross is. Who are you, and why should I give a rat's ass what you think? | ||
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I agree with savage99, this thread was out of line from the beginning. Just because a person has a different perspective than you doesn't mean they are an idiot. Whatever happened to "reasonable men can differ"? I get a little tired of the "I'm smarter than you, I'm better than you, and if you don't xxx (hunt, shoot, fish, think, etc) the same way I do, you're an idiot, attitude. But then, silly me, I'm just another one of the idiots.... | |||
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I've read a lot of MR. Seyfreid's articles and I've read a lot of your posts on this site. I think one of you two are an idiot, and it's not Mr. Seyfreid. | |||
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Yep, Ross is the best gunnutt guru alive today. Mr. "O" scores a big fat zero on these arguments. I do say that Ross has been a pussyfooter and tease at times, like when he hinted that foam fillers destroy double rifles, with no substantive evidence to back it up, be he speaking only of the old BP doubles or not. Tease! Or like when he showed data about the .458 Lott being barely able to get 2200 fps from 500 grainers without excessive pressure, and said that he would fill us in later about the reasons he thought it so for that test. Tease! Yes, even Ross is a bit of a whore, to further his rag, but at least a subtle whore. If he starts championing the 400 H&H, he deserves to be called Miss Seyfried for sure. | |||
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Met him, liked him as a person, have disagreed with some small items. An idiot? Not in my opinion. | |||
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| Moderator |
I can't say that I agree with Seyfreid on this one. My Sako does not have a dettachable mag, but I wish it did. I used an SLR for quite a while and I can think of only one time the mag let me down and that was as a result of me doing a spectacular high speed belly flop onto a concrete road The mag took most of the impact and the bottom plate flipped off scattering bullets everywhere....Back to hunting, where you are crossing fences alot, climbing tree stands or getting in an out of vehicles, a box mag is definately more convenient. Sure you could leave it at home, but you could also leave your bolt, ammo box or binos too...The mags on hunting rifles such as Tikka's ect are generally not subjected to anywhere near the same abuse as a typical service rifle and they also seem to be better contructed. I would say they were less easy to loose than stripper clips and probably eaier to replace if you do. although I could think stripper clips would be a lot, lot cheaper of course...Each to their own I guess!Regards, Pete | |||
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I don't give a rat's ass how many here think Seyfreid's word is second only to God's. What he does say of merit is simple common sense anyway, no big revelation there. Most of his rantings on rifles, bullets, and marksmanship have a certain air of "my way or the highway". An air that smelleth foul, methinks. All of you who think he walked down the mountain with the tablets can keep him. I've had my fill, and it tasted like shit. | |||
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| <500 A2> |
Zeke, I agree with you on this one. I really do not understand all the wasted energy some people expell over what some gunwriter said or didn't say! Orion1, How much hunting experience do you have? I have a general understanding of gunwriters experience, but nothing on yours. In order for me to determine which of you should be given more attention I need to know the relative experience levels of both. So please tell me about your experience hunting and with what types of rifles. I hope you are not a simple bench / service rifle shooter running off at the mouth. You realize, I hope, that there is a big big difference between shooting at the range and shooting under the pressure and varied conditions of field hunting. Even timed events at the range are nowhere near the pressure level or varied conditions that field hunting places on a shooter. It is simply the difference between simulation (range shooting) and reality (hunting). Simulations is practically never as difficult as reality is! Lucs | ||
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| <David King> |
I don't know either Ross or Orion 1 but from my experiences first hand... Orion 1 is probably mistaken and perhaps less field experienced... Given the option between stripper clips and a detachable mag... I'd pick stripper clips (omit rifles with scopes). Boat tails I have used (and I've used a lot of them) separate quite often (the still kill critters but the core often slips out). I have seen detachable mags that wouldn't work, Remington's (recent offering comes to mind), AR15 and M16 mags that need "calibration", M14 mags that are a little fussy. A few cents for a stripper clip (carry extras) vs many dollars for a magazine seems a no-brainer. Looks like most folks are of the opinion that Orion 1 is far off center... "If one person calls you a horses ass you can disreguard him...it two (or more) people call you a horses ass you need to buy a saddle." | ||
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