Can't you see the difference (and what he's talking about) that one is a classic olld gun?

This sort of reminds me of the PeeWee Minor Hockey coach that was bragging that he knows more about hockey than Wayne Gretzky!

I agree with Ray Atkinson..... looks like Orion has almost achieved troll status...
I don't have a problem with disagreein with someone, but to immediately dismiss all they have to say because of it is just silly. Then to say that everyone that disagrees with your point is a butt-kisser...? Sounds like Orion has the "little-man's complex"....

Orion is "his own man", it isnt the first post in which he says he doesnt "hero worship anyone" and I guess he wants it to be known. He must have just moved out of his parents house and is feeling especialy independant.

Maybe Orion should go home and thell his mother she's calling him.
Paul B.

If stripper clips are the way to go, how come they are not used or even an option on any current producution (hunting) bolt or service rifle?? I am not talking just American companies here, but internationaly? yes the dettachable mag has its down sides as already mentioned, but they must be far outweighed by their plus points to gain such universal acceptance? I think there are certain niche areas where I would avoid them, (a DG rifle springs to mind), but on a deer or varnmint rifle, I simply don't see the issue here.

As i said, each to their own I guess!

Regards,

Pete

I use stripper clips to carry extra rounds while in the field. I wrap the rounds with masking tape so they don't come loose or rattle. Makes a neat 5 round ammo pack. By the way, masking tape (the blue stuff) makes a great emergency fire starter. Try it sometime. And while I don't always agree with old Ross, he's far from being an idiot. I can think of more than few gunwriters who could possibly qualify at times. If you don't like the guy's writing and/or opinions, don't read it.

craigster,

Long ago I was packing my dad's and my reloads in five shot stripper clips and wrapping them with masking tape. I could write on the tape will a ball pen and note the load.

I was opening day up North and just getting light. I had my P-17 loaded with 180 Sierra SPT's and a buck and does made thier way across a field maybe 150 yards away. I fired three shots at the buck but it was kind of dark for the peep sights. I missed all three shots a later search would prove. As I got up to go after the buck another buck stood up in the grass right in front of me maybe 50 feet away. I shot it thru the ribs and it fell and then got up and started to run. I shot at it as it ran and missed. My rifle was now empty.

I could not get the tape off of the rounds in the stripper clips. My hands were cold and the tape was like steel at that temperature which must have been well below freezing. Since I was about 15 years old and could run that's what I did. I ran after the deer and it fell in front of me. As it held it's head up I shot it in the neck with my Woodsman. The HP bullet broke it's spine and that was that. I never used masking tape again.

[ 07-05-2003, 07:52: Message edited by: Savage99 ]

Playing a devils adovocate here:

Whether we agree with Orion or not< HE does have a right to an opinion.

Could he have said it a little more diplomaticall�? Of course.

Ross Seyfried is a person that I look at like Mr Atkinson. These gentlemen have more hands on experience than 90 % of us combined. Do I have experience that contradicts what they say? Yes. Case in point, Mr. Atkinson does not have an affection for 6mm cartridges, and I do. Does that make him an idiot? NO. Does that mean my 6mm's will no longer take game? Of course not.

Orion DOES HAVE A RIGHT TO HIS OPINION. He also has a right to post it here. Being diplomatic might not invoke as much criticism. However, those that attack him are not doing anything more than they are complaining about him doing!

If we can't keep it civil and professional in here, maybe we need to look at another board or start one of their own. Remember we are all fellow hunters and shooters, and we have a lot of people who want to end what we love the most. I for one, am not going to load their ammunition for them.

I have watched a few people who have attacked some of my opinions on some topics and criticize my rational in explaining why I feel that way. Then I have watched the same people under attack on another posts, for trying to explain their rational. Do I feel a sense of poetic justice?
NOT AT ALL.

This board is developing an underlying tide of MOB mentality on here. Anything provocative, one is under slander and attack. And this juvenile "Mommy needs to get you off your computer... or Mommy this, or Mommy that...." This third grade school playground mentality is ridiculous and has no place on a board such as this. I have even been guilty of biting the bait when angered by others slander and have lowered myself and returned it. I appreciate the time and energy one of our GRATIOUS elders one here posted a note about lowering myself to the other attackers status. He even took the time and replied to an email personally to me. I thank him for pointing out reality of not buying into the BS that is becoming common place in here.

Is one person on here going to quit buying a magazine because one of our posters thinks the guy who writes in it is an idiot? I don't think so. So why jump on his shit, like he upset someone's apple cart in here?

There is not a man in here, experienced or not, that does not have opinions and have a million people who will disagree with him, and also a million people who will.

We all , me included, need to think before we go typing out brains out on the keyboard. Engage brain before engaging BIG MOUTH!
Just MHO!

Originally posted by Orion 1:
I figured all the butt-kissers and apologists would be around shortly and I wasn't disappointed.
Did you really think a whole list of "butt kissers and apologists" would come out in support of your post? I don't think so. Seyfrid has a following, you don't. Don't whine, don't complain. He's earned this, you haven't. Trying to belittle the guy is a poor attempt to shove him down to your level, so you can 'appear' his equal. Nice try, but no one really buys this. ~~~Suluuq

As seafire said, we all have opinions here. I agree with a lot and disagree with a lot. I think Orion is abrasive in his tone and demeanor, but as I stated earlier, I tend to agree with this one. (just not as loudly.) Yes, the man (Mr. Seyfried) certainly has a following and that is fine with me.

Mr. William Jefferson Clinton is a master politician. He won the highest election in the US in the midst of scandals like never seen before in US history. He is an idiot.

Charles Darwin, was at the top of his game when he wrote his papers and book. He was an idiot.

Ted Kaczynski was a teriffic bomb maker. The FBI says one of the best they ever saw. He is an idiot.

In my never to be humble opinion, experience does not excuse one from that title. How many experienced drivers, with all the facts lain before them, still refuse to wear seatbelts? There are any number of people's opinions and writings I will value much more than Ross'. I think Mike375 probably has more on-game experience in a year than Ross does in 10 years. I will listen more to Mike. Jim Kobe may be a great riflesmith, but after looking at the majority of his posts, he is an idiot. I will listen to Mr. Belk more on the gunsmith subject. I don't always agree with Ray, but I value his opinion much more.

Ross won an IPSC title, yep back when adjustable sights were the big thing going and Novel was the network to have. Now the D-class times and scores would beat that performance. I just don't do "set in their ways" as well as I probably should. Like his explaination as to why he won't even use Ballistic Tips that were meant for heavy game. Basically, "since the light ones don't work, the heavy ones won't either". So, because your Ranger won't pull your boat, don't buy that F250.

Can we think someone an idiot because we disagree with most of what they say, yep again.

Like I said, just my never to be humble opinion.

[ 07-05-2003, 19:33: Message edited by: larrys ]

Ross Seyfried never woke up stupid even one morning of his life. You may not agree with him but he calls them the way he sees them. Other than John Barsness,Clair Rees, Bryan Pearce & Mike Venturino... most of the gunscribes do sell the flavor of the month. It is their job.
Agreed...lets keep things civil here. Orion is entitled to voice his opinion. He does need to work on his people skills however. Voicing his opinion does not make him a troll...uncultured perhaps...but not a troll.

swede

Larry, you bring up some good points. I don't always agree with some talented and experienced gunwriters on a number of topics, either. I didn't always agree with Jack O'Connor, nor Elmer Keith, nor do I always agree with Ross Seyfried, as examples. That's life, and we're all human beings and each of us is full of our own failings and prejudices.

But I don't let such disagreements get in the way of the big picture. I won't call a man an idiot across the board when that man has great experience under his belt to share with the rest of us, and when his advice is generally sound.

Heck, some of the very best people I work with every week in my profession are those who I don't always see eye-to-eye with, and often those folks end up being right in the end after all. Sometimes it works the other way as well, but there's always mutual respect that underscores every such disagreement, and there is no name-calling.

The worst kind of fool is the fool who fools himself.........

AD

IMO, Mr. Seyfried is one of the few thoughtful, intelligent and consistently good "gun" writers currently being published. Very nearly everything he says can be proven to be correct.

I read that article. I find absolutely nothing that is idiotic. There are several points with which you apparently disagree that have been borne out in my personal experience.

Clearly, from your tone and language, the accuracy or correctness of the article in unimportant to you, for whatever reason.

I've always kind of thought that when two people always agree one of them isn't needed anymore!

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

speaking of which where is Orion at-perhaps he's at the tack shop?

[ 07-06-2003, 04:49: Message edited by: Mark R Dobrenski ]

LarryS-
Bill Clinton isn't an idiot, the people who voted for him are!

Allen and JohnS, points well taken.

Seriously now Johan tell us what you really feel and don't hold anything back.

I rather like the great bulk of thoughts Ross puts to paper.

He is amongst the straightest of shooters IMHO and I much respect that. I see Ross as one of the Good Guys,of which there are getting to be fewer and fewer.

Your mileage may vary...................

Wyomingswede--I don't buy Mr. Seyfreids magazines, but I do read an occasional article of his--far more than I can say about the other 4 manufacturer's whores that you mentioned. BUT, I'm not telling you or anyone else that they are idiots! They are pretty smart--look at all the people that they have paying them, directly or indirectly. Better than me--but I don't think much of their writing, personal thing I reckon.

I have know Ross for some years, he is a quite unassuming person, and probably one of the most knowledgable men I have ever known...Sometimes I disagree with him, not big deal, but I sure respect his opinnion as a guide and gun person...

Seafire, I don't dislike the 6mm's I shoot deer with a 6x45 but I don't think they leave a good blood trail most of the time...I also respect your opinnion about using them, they do have quite a following and they can't all be wrong...

We all have predjudices, but a flame is a flame and Orion is a flamer, with very little experience, mostly BS...

Arts- you can read what you read...buy what you buy...and hopefully learn from your experiences.

I like reading the four I mentioned, and late Finn Aagard as well should be included as well for their honesty and integrity.

I think manufacturer's whores is a bit harsh. They write to entertain and to sell magazines.
Your critique of their career choice is akin to me calling you an OPEC whore because you drive a petroleum fuelled vehicle. Lighten up...You speak highly of Ross, give the others the benefit of the doubt also. My $.02

swede

According to A.S.Hornby, Advanced Larner�s Dictionary of Current English, an idiot is as follows:
Idiot / a person so weak-minded that he is incapable of rational conduct.

Is that a description of Ross Seyfried ???
I guess not. Even if one disagree with some of his statements.

About detachable magazines, I have experienced them on an old Remington 760 pump, wich caused me lots of truble, and I won�t use them on a hunting rifle anymore. Why ??? just the uncomfortable gut feeling

Seafire, well said!

Do I think Ross Seyfreid is an idiot?

Of coarse not.

Do I think Orion is out of line?

NO.

He has a right to his Opinion.

Daryl

Frankly haven't read a lot of this but my opinion regarding Mr. Seyfried; I enjoy the majority of his writing. But at times I feel his articles waste space in Handloader or Rifle as they really don't affect many other people other than maybe Ross. How many of us are EVER going to need loading info for a Howdah pistol? Or loading info on some obscure big bore muzzleloader?? Or a .310 Rook rifle??

Enjoyable reading most of the time but the subject matter is pretty narrow focus and seldom pertains to anything I ever get involved with.

In his defense I guess I can say that I'll probably never hunt an elephant but still enjoy reading the story of someones elephant hunt.

An idiot? No.Plus a poor choice of words and rude as well.

FN in MT

Everyone is entilted to his or her opinion. I like Ross. I would love to meet him and just chat. Most of the stuff and subject he has talked about and I have tried has worked.

As for the boattail subject each perosn has his own opinion. So here is an experience to try. Take wet newsprint and shoot bullets into it and draw your own conclusions. I have seen jackets seperate in both game and in the paper from boattails.

Box magazines I do understand both points of view. Magazine can rattle and get lost being a problem. I did sell lots of those when I worked in the sporting good store and had some that didn't work. When the work they can be great for unloading rifles. This is what we have to do in Wisconsin when we go into a vehicle and this make things easier. So the story works in either opinion.

As don't believe in calling anyone an idiot public. This is America and everyone is entitled to his opinion just don't belittle someone about it. I don't think it is right to rip on Ross or on Orion 1. I think Orion has his right to disagree but shouldn't be hostile

I do like Ross Seyfried and would love to meet him as he seems like a gentleman.

my $ .02

Hcliff

In defense of gun hacks in general, it is not exactly easy to think up a new idea every month, research it and present it in an interesting, informative manner that will have broad appeal. Imagine an article on say the 30-06 or the .270. Few in this room would even read past the title, much less peruse it closely. Ho Hum, been there, done that, got the t shirt. But to some shooters, it would open doors and answer questions. Personally, I like to read occasional articles about obscure or exotic firearms. It often opens windows on the origin of our modern firearms. As you recall, Finn Aagard's style was to lead into his articles with the background and evolution of the firearm he was going to discuss. No gun writer is going to hit a home run with every issue with every reader. And when they offer their opinions or experiences with some of the subjective aspects of the shooting/hunting sport, if it doesn't agree with yours, that doesn't make them an idiot. But then, we've already decided that. The only thing that remains is to stone Orion with popcorn until he sees the error of his ways.

WyomingSwede--Didn't mean to offend you so, as I said that I am not telling anyone what to read, but I feel that the authors that you mentioned pretty much put out whatever BS the manufacturers supporting them want to hear. I don't think your analogy about fuel is very good, as I do use petroleum, but badmouth the source, at least part of it. These guys write all positive about whatever they are handed, regardless. They know if they don't, their oppertunities to partake in the profession will quickly cease. If you like reading them, great, go for it. Incidently, I did enjoy old Finn Aagaard

I find myself in Frank's corner... much of Seyfried's writing doesn't interest me at all. I also think his writing, from a technical and "readability" standpoint, leaves a lot to be desired. I have a feeling his editor has a lot of work to do! HOWEVER, the man is clearly no idiot. He's a no-bs, "been there, done that" guy who's opinion's I respect. Without a doubt he has a hundred-fold more experience than the dip-shit that started this thread.

BA

Ross always made a bunch of sense to me and I agree about detachable magazines for hunting rifles. You lose it, you're down to a single shot rifle. The military uses them but then again, they give you 20-30 of them.

As for boat-tailed bullets for hunting, I'll bow to him 'cause the biggest thing I ever shot was and elk and he wasn't armed with claw, big teeth, or close and personal.

All writers, and for that matter, all humans have their prejudices. Ross Seyfried dislikes detachable magazines but likes stripper clips. He finds the fact that the Dutch Mannlicher unceremoniously spits its clip on the forest floor a minor trifle compared to the positives the rifle offers. So be it.

Whether I agree with him or not, I want a writer to tell me what he likes and doesn't like, and I'll accept responsibility for weeding out the chaff.

O'Connor touted the .270 & 7x57, Boddington's a .30 guy (no flames, please), Keith thought groove diameters less than .338 mostly suitable for varmints, and on it goes. Enjoy all the good writers, but apply your experience and a heapin' helpin' of common sense to their musings.

Regarding Seyfried, specifically, he brings an appreciation and depth of knowledge relating to Rigby, Holland & Holland, Lancaster, Jeffrey, Hollis, and lots of other fine, historic arms and their makers to the table, not to mention a wealth of experience in the great game fields. I know of few others writing about 4 & 8 bores, Whitworth and his contributions, and on, and on, and on. In short, he writes about fresh topics no one else tackles. He is a great asset to Rifle & Handloader.

He was a pioneer in the use of .45 & .475 hard cast handgun bullets on really big game. His experiments have shown the broad spectrum of cast bullet applications & usefulness.

I've never spoken with, met, or corresponded with the man, but would surely love to share dinner and a campfire with him.

Bigiron

Richard,

Stripper clip or speed loader???

I think that speedloaders are still being used with SA80 mags is more to do with the MOD being too tight to spring for the additional mags! Anyway, it this instance, the speed loader is used to charge the dettachable magazine and not the rifle itself as was the original concept of a stripper clip.....

regards,

Pete

Still beating this topic into the ground?

Get over it and go shoot something.

ZM

Well, after everybody else has already expressed his opinion, I might as well give mine:

I haven't read anything recent of Ross Seyfried, but I remember a few articles on how he developed that handgun of his, carrying fossil ivory scales, with a portrait of Ayla of the Clan of the Cave bear engraved. I think it was made from a Ruger Bisley, and the calibre was .45 Colt. He took a pronghorn with it, with open sights. And the development of a big buff caliber, was it the .5something Nyata? And another project where he was trying to come up with a rifle with which to make long-range shots....

I admit, this is long ago, but he struck me then as somebody who has something to contribute to our community, other than just relating how fine outfitter X works after a free hunt there, or claiming scope Y was wonderful after just having received a free specimen.

I liked the guy. I suppose I'll have to pick up a few of the rags and see what he's up to these days.

Frans