(1) Hunting in hilly eastern forests (medium heavy forest, lots of waitaminute vines and bramble) as well as shots across open fields;

(2) engagement ranges from 20 yards to 250 yards.

(3) minimize meat damage.

(4) clean one shot kills from broadside shots as well as quartering shots at odd angles

(5) the ability to apply the coup de grace with a Texas Heart Shot should the wounded prey be making an escape.

Thanks for the inputs!

Todd E

For the conditions you describe I seriously dobt there's a better set-up than a 308 carbine. It works, and I'd not (and have not) hesitate to use such a rifle on elk. Loaded with 165 gr Barnes XLC's at 2,750 fps, it'd penetrate from any angle.

Brad

[This message has been edited by Brad (edited 01-22-2002).]

George

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Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!

Action.....I like Remington 700s, especially the Mountain Rifles,with a trigger job.

Bullet.....Nosler Partitions

Sights.....Leupold 2.5x8 with duplex reticle

Yep, that'd do it. HTH, Dutch.

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Good Hunting & Hunt Safe,
David

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Greg Rodriguez
Mombasa Trading Company
www.mbogo.net
(281) 494-4151

Since I"m not starting from scratch, I"d choose what I already have that is perfect for this use. My 21" No.1 MkIII* .303 British. This gun has a nice stock and a 1.5-5x Simmons whitetail classic scope. I shoot a variety of bullets with it...123 gr. Hornady at 3000 fps, 150 gr. Hornady at 2700 fps, 174 gr. Hornady or 180 gr. Speer at 2500 fps and 215 gr. Woodleigh at 2100 fps. This rifle works great at the ranges specified.

Joel Slate
Slate & Associates, LLC
The Safari Specialists
www.slatesafaris.com

7mm Rem Mag Page www.slatesafaris.com/7mm.htm

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Since it is very possible that this poster is buying his first rifle, I would tend to suggest he buys a caliber lighter than the 30-06. Most men find the 22 ft pounds of recoil from a 30-06 at about the limit of tollerance and I don't believe that it isn't the best way to start out. The 7mm-08 would be less punishing on the shoulder and is ample medicine for deer and black bears.

As for which rifle, I tend to prefer stainless steel bolt actions with 22" medium contour barrels. I prefer wood stocks but since they are subject to warpage, I tend go with laminated or synthetic stocks. Some prefer the Remington or Savage push feed, others the Winchester or Ruger CRF. They all work. Production rifles today are all capable of shooting better than most shooters are capable of. I would suggest shouldering all the available rifles in your price range and deciding which one feels the best. Afterall, rifle feel is important...you have to like it to shoot it well. If you can afford to spend more than regular production rifles cost, consider a premium rifle, such as a Sako or a Weatherby.

Once you purchase your dream rifle, take it to a gunsmith and get him to adjust the trigger to reduce the high trigger pull weight and remove any creep or overtravel. The $50 it costs you will pay off time and time again with better accuracy both on targets and in the field. You may consider glass bedding the action as well but that may depend on how well it shoots. Mount a decent mid-range scope in the 2-8 or 3-9 range, preferably from a major scope maker like Burris or Leupold. After that, practice, practice and practice some more. I hope this helps. EE

As far as resale, try to buy a 99 in 358, then we'll talk. As far as brass, you are kidding right? Are we running out of 308 brass? Factory rounds, maybe, but who buys factory? Anyway, aplethora of factory ammo wasn't one of the criteria listed. JMO, Dutch.

Some eastern black bears get really big (500-600), and a .338/225, .358/250, or 9.3/286 partition, A-Frame, Bear Claw, X, or Fail-Safe is not too much bullet for such a creature.

Recoil from a 30/06 is pretty mild,IMO, especially with factory rounds. I don't believe it's the upper limit of most hunters' tolerances.

Todd E

quote:

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Originally posted by bearguide:
Recoil from a 30/06 is pretty mild,IMO, especially with factory rounds. I don't believe it's the upper limit of most hunters' tolerances.[/B]

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Well bearguide: I guess just about every gun writer in the business is wrong then. Afterall, I have seen the recoil concern stated about the 30-06 in print many times and it doesn't take too many trips to the shooting range to see the evidence of it. I think too that if YOU were to sit behind a 7.5 pound 30-06 shooting 180's for a while at the bench, I'll bet you will develop a pretty good flinch.

To address the 358 Win point again: I have never, ever heard of anyone recommending a 358 for deer hunting at 250 yards. According to the latest Speer reloading manual, this round has an effective range of 200 yards and its velocity is considered to be too low for large bear hunting. For heaven sake, this round was so popular when it was introduced in 1955, that it actually lasted all of 15 years in a production rifle. The last regular rifle production in this caliber was the early 1970's. I think that puts it just about in the relm of dino dung! Yup, that sounds like a real good caliber for someone to buy in 2002! Yeah right.

Maybe Todd is right...the 577 T-Rex should be just the ticket for huge 150 pound bears and garganuan 100 pound bambi's.

Thank goodness the majority have given common sense answers to this man's question.

quote:

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Originally posted by bearguide:
Recoil from a 30/06 is pretty mild,IMO, especially with factory rounds. I don't believe it's the upper limit of most hunters' tolerances.[/B]

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Well bearguide: I guess just about every gun writer in the business is wrong then. Afterall, I have seen the recoil concern stated about the 30-06 in print many times and it doesn't take too many trips to the shooting range to see the evidence of it. I think too that if YOU were to sit behind a 7.5 pound 30-06 shooting 180's for a while at the bench, I'll bet you will develop a pretty good flinch.

To address the 358 Win point again: I have never, ever heard of anyone recommending a 358 for deer hunting at 250 yards. No disrespect meant to you die hard old cartridge fans out there but....according to the latest Speer reloading manual, this round has an effective range of 200 yards and its velocity is considered to be too low for large bear hunting. For heaven sake, this round actually lasted all of 15 years in a production rifle. The last regular rifle production in this caliber was the early 1970's. I think that puts it just about in the relm of dino dung! Yup, that sounds like a real good caliber for someone to buy in 2002! Yeah right.

Maybe Todd is right...the 577 T-Rex should be just the ticket for huge 150 pound bears and garganuan 100 pound bambi's.

Thank goodness the majority have given common sense answers to this man's question.

WyoJoe

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If the question was "what is the best rifle for these applications", I'd have gone with a 308 or a 7x57.

That wasn't the question, though. And even though a 7x57 with 175's will go a long way through a bear, I don't think it will go north/south.

As far as the 358 not being fast enough for big bears, I agree. I'd hate to chase down a half ton plus Kodiak with it. A black bear though, is not a big bear. JMO, Dutch.

So, my dilemma is to choose a single rifle that covers both sets of hunting conditions, as the area I hunt presents both.

As for the 358 Dutch... I have shot black bears through and through from one end to another with a 308 and a 180 grainer so please! You can not buy a new 358 today without going to a custom made rifle. Unless the poster states he wants a custom rifle in an obsolete caliber, I don't think anyone should be recommending same....that was my point. Sure, perhaps it is your pet caliber...that is fine but it doesn't make it a good candidate for a new rifle. EE

Being able to penetrate from rear end to boiler room pretty much eliminates anything under 30 cal, IMO., in a non-magnum.

Also, the 358 Win. was chambered in Browning BLR's until not that long ago.

As for end to enders needing 30 cal minimum...I find it depends more on the distance to target (energy level) and the bullet construction. I have seen it go both ways...I have used premium bullets from a 7mm-08 to go lengthwise through an animal and have had non-premium ones from a 308 that blew up on impact at close range. I have also shot big game end to end with a 25 cal so sorry, I don't agree with your 30 cal rule.

As for the BLR, you are right. The .358 Win was chambered in the Browning BLR until a few years ago but is discontinued now and in my books, that still makes it a poor choice. I may have a different approach from some of you but I don't collect rifles, I shoot them. If I get tired with a rifle, I dump it. I can't afford to fill my vault with rifles I don't use nor do I want a rifle collecting dust. Marketability is very important to me.

Sorry for the long post.

quote:

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Originally posted by Eagle Eye:
Well bearguide: I guess just about every gun writer in the business is wrong then. Afterall, I have seen the recoil concern stated about the 30-06 in print many times and it doesn't take too many trips to the shooting range to see the evidence of it. I think too that if YOU were to sit behind a 7.5 pound 30-06 shooting 180's for a while at the bench, I'll bet you will develop a pretty good flinch.

To address the 358 Win point again: I have never, ever heard of anyone recommending a 358 for deer hunting at 250 yards. No disrespect meant to you die hard old cartridge fans out there but....according to the latest Speer reloading manual, this round has an effective range of 200 yards and its velocity is considered to be too low for large bear hunting.

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Anyone willing to take up the shooting of centerfire rifles sensibly can easily handle the recoil of an -06, or more. I've burned two boxes through my 35 whelen ackley, 250 gr @ 2700 at a lunch time shooting session, not a single flinch. Now, that is considerably more recoil then dealt by a 358 win!

To say that a 225 gr bullet @ 2500 fps is inadequate beyond 200 yds is ignorant at best. Sight it in at 200, and you have an honest 250 yd gun, that is superiour to any small bore. If you don't understand the virtues of medium bores, then that is your problem!

Yes, there are a durth of factory guns and ammo in 358, a pity, as it is a much better round for the average hunter then the small bores. To those that handload, it offers incredibly frugile practice loads with mild recoil, load a 150-180 gr cast pistol bullet to 1500-1700 fps, $15 for not 20 rds, but 100 rds of ammo.

Interesting that you read something into the original post that wasn't there, and then chide others for not agreeing for your false assumptions.

quote:

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Originally posted by Paul H:
Anyone willing to take up the shooting of centerfire rifles sensibly can easily handle the recoil of an -06, or more. I've burned two boxes through my 35 whelen ackley, 250 gr @ 2700 at a lunch time shooting session, not a single flinch. Now, that is considerably more recoil then dealt by a 358 win!

To say that a 225 gr bullet @ 2500 fps is inadequate beyond 200 yds is ignorant at best. Sight it in at 200, and you have an honest 250 yd gun, that is superiour to any small bore. If you don't understand the virtues of medium bores, then that is your problem!

Yes, there are a durth of factory guns and ammo in 358, a pity, as it is a much better round for the average hunter then the small bores. To those that handload, it offers incredibly frugile practice loads with mild recoil, load a 150-180 gr cast pistol bullet to 1500-1700 fps, $15 for not 20 rds, but 100 rds of ammo.

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Well, Paul....so your tough enough to handle a 30-06. Geez. I think you need to re-read what I posted and not muddy the water further by mentioning the recoil of yet another obsolete cartridge, the 35 Whelen. Now, you are calling the writers at Speer ignorant. Well perhaps they are. I don't know them...all I did was paraphrase their comments and the fact that the cartridge is now obsolete shows that the 358 Win is not popular. That says enough in itself. Then you make a comment that when sighted in at 200 yards, a 358 Win is superior to any small bore. Well, that sort of statement shows all the readers where you are at.

Just remember Paul, I never said the 358 Win was a bad caliber, just not a good choice.

According to the NRA hunting,most game that are shot,90%,are shot 150 and less.I see you said that you will be hunting in thick woods,so a lever action in 444 or 4570 or 50AK .The one one I like now is the 50-110 will do that and you will have big holes and alot of blood to trace,Thanks,Kev