Starting From Scratch -- Whitetail and Black Bear rifle

23 January 2002, 04:16

<Dogger>

If you could start from scratch, what would be your first choice of caliber, action, and bullet for whitetail deer and black bear hunting, given these conditions:

(1) Hunting in hilly eastern forests (medium heavy forest, lots of waitaminute vines and bramble) as well as shots across open fields;

(2) engagement ranges from 20 yards to 250 yards.

(3) minimize meat damage.

(4) clean one shot kills from broadside shots as well as quartering shots at odd angles

(5) the ability to apply the coup de grace with a Texas Heart Shot should the wounded prey be making an escape.

Thanks for the inputs!

23 January 2002, 04:21

<500 AHR>

What I use currently. A 9.3X74R double rifle with 22" barrels.

Todd E

23 January 2002, 04:24

Brad

A Winchester 70 stainless SA with a stainless 308 Win featherweight tube finished at 20". Open sights installed and a Leupold 1x4 on top in stainless Weaver mounts. I HAD this very rifle (only with a 19" bbl.) and am in the process of building another (this time with a 20" bbl.).

For the conditions you describe I seriously dobt there's a better set-up than a 308 carbine. It works, and I'd not (and have not) hesitate to use such a rifle on elk. Loaded with 165 gr Barnes XLC's at 2,750 fps, it'd penetrate from any angle.

Brad

[This message has been edited by Brad (edited 01-22-2002).]

23 January 2002, 04:42

GeorgeS

Either a Winchester Model 70, Sako Finnbear, or Remington 700 sporter in .30-06 with a 24" barrel, and 180gr. Swift A-Frames for bears and 165gr. Nosler Partitions for deer.

George

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Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!

23 January 2002, 04:52

DB Bill

Caliber....7mm08, .270, .280, .308, .30/06

Action.....I like Remington 700s, especially the Mountain Rifles,with a trigger job.

Bullet.....Nosler Partitions

Sights.....Leupold 2.5x8 with duplex reticle

23 January 2002, 05:23

Dutch

With the requirements for both penetration AND low meat damage, I'd say something like the 358 or 35 Whelen. Shooting something like a 225 Speer TBBC. Delivered by something like a Savage 99 (358), or a 7600 pump (Whelen). Optics something like a 1.5x5 Leupold vari III.

Yep, that'd do it. HTH, Dutch.

23 January 2002, 05:51

<Frank>

I built a rifle for that type of terain and same game. What I built was a Sako 7-08 Ackley with a 20 inch barrel for fast handling, shooting 140grn bullets I am over 3000fps Nice neat deadly little package.

23 January 2002, 06:45

<DavidP>

I agree with GeorgeS 100%.

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Good Hunting & Hunt Safe,
David

23 January 2002, 07:59

Greg R

.308 or .30-06 with 165 TBBC. I've used the .308 with those loads for all sizes of African game as well as deer, exotics, and feral hogs, and I am going to use it in BC this May for Black Bears. Unlike some people, I don't consider either one better than the other. I just prefer the .308 for the short action and cheap practice ammo.

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Greg Rodriguez
Mombasa Trading Company
www.mbogo.net
(281) 494-4151

23 January 2002, 08:38

Paul H

358 win, bolt action (ruger M77 Mk II, 21" barrel), 225 gr partition.

23 January 2002, 10:31

jrslate

Gentlemen,
If I was starting from scratch, I'd have to go with a .308. Probably a 20-22" tube on it. 2-7x Leopold scope. I think 165 gr. partitions would be my bullet of choice.

Since I"m not starting from scratch, I"d choose what I already have that is perfect for this use. My 21" No.1 MkIII* .303 British. This gun has a nice stock and a 1.5-5x Simmons whitetail classic scope. I shoot a variety of bullets with it...123 gr. Hornady at 3000 fps, 150 gr. Hornady at 2700 fps, 174 gr. Hornady or 180 gr. Speer at 2500 fps and 215 gr. Woodleigh at 2100 fps. This rifle works great at the ranges specified.

Joel Slate
Slate & Associates, LLC
The Safari Specialists
www.slatesafaris.com

7mm Rem Mag Page www.slatesafaris.com/7mm.htm

23 January 2002, 12:22

Mark G

I would go with a .308win or 30-06, in a Winchester M70 sporter or Featherweight. Top it with a Leopold scope and stoke it with good 180gr Hornady bullets (165's for the .308), and go hunting. Dang, I think I just talked myself into one!
Thanks man.

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23 January 2002, 12:46

<Eagle Eye>

The suggestions given are all valid deer and bears terminators for short range hunting, especially the 308 Win. However, suggesting that someone just starting out should buy a cartridge like the .358 Win doesn't make sense for many reasons. What if he doesn't reload, availability of brass, resale of the rifle, and so on.

Since it is very possible that this poster is buying his first rifle, I would tend to suggest he buys a caliber lighter than the 30-06. Most men find the 22 ft pounds of recoil from a 30-06 at about the limit of tollerance and I don't believe that it isn't the best way to start out. The 7mm-08 would be less punishing on the shoulder and is ample medicine for deer and black bears.

As for which rifle, I tend to prefer stainless steel bolt actions with 22" medium contour barrels. I prefer wood stocks but since they are subject to warpage, I tend go with laminated or synthetic stocks. Some prefer the Remington or Savage push feed, others the Winchester or Ruger CRF. They all work. Production rifles today are all capable of shooting better than most shooters are capable of. I would suggest shouldering all the available rifles in your price range and deciding which one feels the best. Afterall, rifle feel is important...you have to like it to shoot it well. If you can afford to spend more than regular production rifles cost, consider a premium rifle, such as a Sako or a Weatherby.

Once you purchase your dream rifle, take it to a gunsmith and get him to adjust the trigger to reduce the high trigger pull weight and remove any creep or overtravel. The $50 it costs you will pay off time and time again with better accuracy both on targets and in the field. You may consider glass bedding the action as well but that may depend on how well it shoots. Mount a decent mid-range scope in the 2-8 or 3-9 range, preferably from a major scope maker like Burris or Leupold. After that, practice, practice and practice some more. I hope this helps. EE

23 January 2002, 13:28

Dutch

Eagle Eye, with all due respect, the criteria layed out are not met by the 308. If you want North-South penetration on a bear, the 358 is about as light a cartridge as you want to play with.

As far as resale, try to buy a 99 in 358, then we'll talk. As far as brass, you are kidding right? Are we running out of 308 brass? Factory rounds, maybe, but who buys factory? Anyway, aplethora of factory ammo wasn't one of the criteria listed. JMO, Dutch.

23 January 2002, 14:06

Pathfinder

My choice would be the 308 using 165 gr partitions when you include black bear. For deer only the standard winchester, fed or rem 150 grain psp. Deer are not hard to kill. Black Bear on the other hand can be much larger than deer and with heavy Fall fat complete penetration is highly desirerable.The fact is the 150grs will also work but always error on the side of too much rather than too little. Look at all of the feather/light weight rifles that you can and choose the one that's affordable and fits you the best. Then practice and go hunting.

23 January 2002, 14:27

<leo>

You need a carbine lenglth rifle for handy use in the thick stuff and that will also work on the longish shots. The .308 with 180 grain nosler-partitions will fill the bill on all your mentioned shots and is efficient in a carbine lenglth barrel. A 20 inch barreled carbine(not less) with a 12 1/2 inch lenglth of pull is very handy and the shorter lenglth of pull can be gotten used to very easy by using a short scope of say 1x5 or 1.5x6 which is all the power you will need. You could use lighter cartridges that may still be efficient in the short barrel but that 180 grain partition "will do" the Texas heart-shot.

23 January 2002, 14:56

<Eagle Eye>

Well Dutch: Maybe you should just recommend a RPG for this man! If you can't kill a blackie with a 308, you shouldn't be hunting. As the 358, I haven't seen one in 15 years and have never seen 358 brass up here. Rare doesn't begin to describe it. Stick with the mainstream is the best recommendation a person can give, IMHO. As for resale, just try to get a good buck in trade for a non-standard caliber at a gun shop and you'll be laughed out of the store. Maybe in Idaho Dutch but not here in gun control country. EE

23 January 2002, 15:44

BigIron

Given your requirement for taking bad-angle shots and a possible Texas heart shot for a finisher on bear, I'd go with 338-06, .35 Whelen, 9.3x62, or .358 Winchester with medium to heavy weight premium bullets. Plenty of thump and range to 250, and can be built in rifles that are not overly heavy.

Some eastern black bears get really big (500-600), and a .338/225, .358/250, or 9.3/286 partition, A-Frame, Bear Claw, X, or Fail-Safe is not too much bullet for such a creature.

23 January 2002, 15:45

<Elliot Viker>

I would have to agree with Dutch on this one if the person reloads. The 358 is a super round if you reload. It can do all that is being asked of in this case. The 35 whelen is better, but if 250yds is the farthest, and black bear is the largest, the 358 will do a great job. If this person is not a handloader, then a 30-06 has the most widely avaiable bullets choices and a suitable choice can be made. But, this is just my thinking, and I am hooked on 35's and I would add, if you have not hunted much with them, they perform much better than most would think.

23 January 2002, 15:46

<bearguide>

30/06, bolt action,180gr. Nosler Partition. Some bears get pretty big, and a 165 in either 308 or 30/06 may be a bit too light. If you can't hit a deer at 250 yds. with a 180, you probably won't hit it with a 165 either.

Recoil from a 30/06 is pretty mild,IMO, especially with factory rounds. I don't believe it's the upper limit of most hunters' tolerances.

23 January 2002, 15:52

Ray, Alaska

A .30-06 should be plenty, but if you want more, then a .30-06 in steroids (.338-06).

23 January 2002, 16:22

<500 AHR>

Upon further reflection I think that I would opt for a 585 Nyati or 577 T-Rex. Then I would not have to worry about having to get a second rifle if I ever decided to go to Africa in the future. I could also answer anyone's questions concerning how big a hole I can punch in a critter with that bad boy.

Todd E

23 January 2002, 17:23

<Eagle Eye>

quote:
Originally posted by bearguide:
Recoil from a 30/06 is pretty mild,IMO, especially with factory rounds. I don't believe it's the upper limit of most hunters' tolerances.[/B]

Well bearguide: I guess just about every gun writer in the business is wrong then. Afterall, I have seen the recoil concern stated about the 30-06 in print many times and it doesn't take too many trips to the shooting range to see the evidence of it. I think too that if YOU were to sit behind a 7.5 pound 30-06 shooting 180's for a while at the bench, I'll bet you will develop a pretty good flinch.

To address the 358 Win point again: I have never, ever heard of anyone recommending a 358 for deer hunting at 250 yards. According to the latest Speer reloading manual, this round has an effective range of 200 yards and its velocity is considered to be too low for large bear hunting. For heaven sake, this round was so popular when it was introduced in 1955, that it actually lasted all of 15 years in a production rifle. The last regular rifle production in this caliber was the early 1970's. I think that puts it just about in the relm of dino dung! Yup, that sounds like a real good caliber for someone to buy in 2002! Yeah right.

Maybe Todd is right...the 577 T-Rex should be just the ticket for huge 150 pound bears and garganuan 100 pound bambi's.

Thank goodness the majority have given common sense answers to this man's question.

23 January 2002, 17:35

<Eagle Eye>

quote:
Originally posted by bearguide:
Recoil from a 30/06 is pretty mild,IMO, especially with factory rounds. I don't believe it's the upper limit of most hunters' tolerances.[/B]

To address the 358 Win point again: I have never, ever heard of anyone recommending a 358 for deer hunting at 250 yards. No disrespect meant to you die hard old cartridge fans out there but....according to the latest Speer reloading manual, this round has an effective range of 200 yards and its velocity is considered to be too low for large bear hunting. For heaven sake, this round actually lasted all of 15 years in a production rifle. The last regular rifle production in this caliber was the early 1970's. I think that puts it just about in the relm of dino dung! Yup, that sounds like a real good caliber for someone to buy in 2002! Yeah right.

Maybe Todd is right...the 577 T-Rex should be just the ticket for huge 150 pound bears and garganuan 100 pound bambi's.

Thank goodness the majority have given common sense answers to this man's question.

23 January 2002, 18:14

WyoJoe

My candidate for a whitetail/bear rifle would have to be a Ruger M-77 Stainless Steel in .270 w/ laminated stock, topped with a Leupold 1.75X6 scope. The only qualifier for this gun if it is mine would be that it shoot my handloads (I don't do factory). The load would be something like the 130 gr Nosler Partition at around 3000 fps at the muzzle. I am a die hard .300 mag fan but this sounds like it might be someones first rifle. I have seen people with combinations like this use it for everything. The .270 is a sweet shooting round that is low on recoil.

WyoJoe

23 January 2002, 20:25

Nitroman

This has been mentioned already BUT...since you are in Virginnie and if you want to stand out from the crowd, get the job done with your criteria in mind, the 9.3x62 would do that real nicely.

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24 January 2002, 03:26

sxr6

Hard to go wrong with the 308 but depending on rifle used there are a lot of calibers that work perfect. I notice you specified Eastern deer country, that make me think of the old M-88 & M-100 Win's, boy they are good guns for what you want, & can be very accurate with very litle work! & NO the 358 is not that dead or rare, at least not here in Ontario. I looked at at least 10 this past summer, also good caliber.

24 January 2002, 03:27

Dutch

Eagle eye, that is all well and good, but it seems to me you are refusing to answer the poster's questions. Kinda like disagreeing with someone's question?????????????

If the question was "what is the best rifle for these applications", I'd have gone with a 308 or a 7x57.

That wasn't the question, though. And even though a 7x57 with 175's will go a long way through a bear, I don't think it will go north/south.

As far as the 358 not being fast enough for big bears, I agree. I'd hate to chase down a half ton plus Kodiak with it. A black bear though, is not a big bear. JMO, Dutch.

24 January 2002, 03:34

<Dogger>

Thanks for the recommendations so far. Please keep them coming. As it turns out, I am a reloader. I have two rifles in my stable: a lever action Marlin 30-30 with a Williams peep, and a Ruger M77 Mark II, 22 inch barrel, in 7x57 Mauser topped with a Leupold Vari-X II 3x9x40. The Ruger is a nice rifle for the open fields but a little awkward in the woods -- where I hunt the creepers and vines are numerous and grab everything. The 30-30 is wonderful in the thick stuff but, with the peep, I am not confident of a killing shot beyond 100 yards. Our bears don't get too big in these parts, a 400 pounder would be a monster.

So, my dilemma is to choose a single rifle that covers both sets of hunting conditions, as the area I hunt presents both.

24 January 2002, 04:16

<Eagle Eye>

Well Dogger, sounds like a candidate for a 308 in a Remington Model 7, preferably the stainless steel synthetic model.

As for the 358 Dutch... I have shot black bears through and through from one end to another with a 308 and a 180 grainer so please! You can not buy a new 358 today without going to a custom made rifle. Unless the poster states he wants a custom rifle in an obsolete caliber, I don't think anyone should be recommending same....that was my point. Sure, perhaps it is your pet caliber...that is fine but it doesn't make it a good candidate for a new rifle. EE

24 January 2002, 04:20

<leo>

Winchester stills makes .358 ammo but finding a gun chambered for it might be a problem. Dogger could always have a smith shorten up his 7x57 which works great in a carbine barrel and yes a 175 grain bullet from it will go end to end on a big bear. A 150 or 160 grain partition "will do" the Texas heart-shot too. A Rem. model seven sounds pretty good here if he needs a repeater. Otherwise, a T/C Encore single-shot rifle is extremely handy being only 38 1/2 inches long with the 24 inch barrel but they can be had in shorter barrels down to 20 inches or less. And it can be ordered with a .358 winnie barrel. T/C's custom shop/Foxridge Outfitters is 1-800-243-4570.

24 January 2002, 04:42

beemanbeme

model 7, 7-08, 11/2x5 scope.

24 January 2002, 07:10

<bearguide>

eagle eye- Most rifles chambered in 30-06 don't weigh 7 1/2 lbs., even before adding a scope, ammo, etc.
If you're suggesting I have no personal experience, you're wrong in that aspect as well. I have a Win M70 Featherweight in 30/06 and it weighs 7 1/4 lbs. bare and is one of a few light production rifles chambered in that caliber. With 180's stoked to the max it does recoil, but not anywhere near unmanageable.

Being able to penetrate from rear end to boiler room pretty much eliminates anything under 30 cal, IMO., in a non-magnum.

Also, the 358 Win. was chambered in Browning BLR's until not that long ago.

24 January 2002, 07:47

<Eagle Eye>

Bearguide: Even an 8.25 pounder (like yours) will kick 23+ ft pounds and most experts say that 20 pounds is the upper limit for new shooters. We aren't talking about an experienced shooter here, I am talking about a new shooter. Hell, I've seen big men that can't handle recoil and small ones that think it isn't anything....everyone is different. My point was that for a new shooter, a 30-06 isn't necessarily the best choice. As it turned out, he wasn't a new shooter but that wasn't known at the time I posted. Now, I wasn't suggesting that you don't have lots of exposure to this issue. I just find it rather counterproductive when people with lots of gun savvy give the wrong advice to newbies. Things like recommending obsolete cartridges and hard kicking pet rifles is not the way to get new shooters into the sport. It is tough enough in this new world of gun control and rules upon rules to get people into the sport without some suggesting their pet "non-mainstream" caliber as the best. It just muddies the water. Anyway, enough said on that topic.

As for end to enders needing 30 cal minimum...I find it depends more on the distance to target (energy level) and the bullet construction. I have seen it go both ways...I have used premium bullets from a 7mm-08 to go lengthwise through an animal and have had non-premium ones from a 308 that blew up on impact at close range. I have also shot big game end to end with a 25 cal so sorry, I don't agree with your 30 cal rule.

As for the BLR, you are right. The .358 Win was chambered in the Browning BLR until a few years ago but is discontinued now and in my books, that still makes it a poor choice. I may have a different approach from some of you but I don't collect rifles, I shoot them. If I get tired with a rifle, I dump it. I can't afford to fill my vault with rifles I don't use nor do I want a rifle collecting dust. Marketability is very important to me.

Sorry for the long post.

24 January 2002, 08:03

Paul H

quote:
Originally posted by Eagle Eye:
Well bearguide: I guess just about every gun writer in the business is wrong then. Afterall, I have seen the recoil concern stated about the 30-06 in print many times and it doesn't take too many trips to the shooting range to see the evidence of it. I think too that if YOU were to sit behind a 7.5 pound 30-06 shooting 180's for a while at the bench, I'll bet you will develop a pretty good flinch.
To address the 358 Win point again: I have never, ever heard of anyone recommending a 358 for deer hunting at 250 yards. No disrespect meant to you die hard old cartridge fans out there but....according to the latest Speer reloading manual, this round has an effective range of 200 yards and its velocity is considered to be too low for large bear hunting.

Anyone willing to take up the shooting of centerfire rifles sensibly can easily handle the recoil of an -06, or more. I've burned two boxes through my 35 whelen ackley, 250 gr @ 2700 at a lunch time shooting session, not a single flinch. Now, that is considerably more recoil then dealt by a 358 win!

To say that a 225 gr bullet @ 2500 fps is inadequate beyond 200 yds is ignorant at best. Sight it in at 200, and you have an honest 250 yd gun, that is superiour to any small bore. If you don't understand the virtues of medium bores, then that is your problem!

Yes, there are a durth of factory guns and ammo in 358, a pity, as it is a much better round for the average hunter then the small bores. To those that handload, it offers incredibly frugile practice loads with mild recoil, load a 150-180 gr cast pistol bullet to 1500-1700 fps, $15 for not 20 rds, but 100 rds of ammo.

Interesting that you read something into the original post that wasn't there, and then chide others for not agreeing for your false assumptions.

24 January 2002, 09:10

<Eagle Eye>

quote:
Originally posted by Paul H:
Anyone willing to take up the shooting of centerfire rifles sensibly can easily handle the recoil of an -06, or more. I've burned two boxes through my 35 whelen ackley, 250 gr @ 2700 at a lunch time shooting session, not a single flinch. Now, that is considerably more recoil then dealt by a 358 win!
To say that a 225 gr bullet @ 2500 fps is inadequate beyond 200 yds is ignorant at best. Sight it in at 200, and you have an honest 250 yd gun, that is superiour to any small bore. If you don't understand the virtues of medium bores, then that is your problem!
Yes, there are a durth of factory guns and ammo in 358, a pity, as it is a much better round for the average hunter then the small bores. To those that handload, it offers incredibly frugile practice loads with mild recoil, load a 150-180 gr cast pistol bullet to 1500-1700 fps, $15 for not 20 rds, but 100 rds of ammo.

Well, Paul....so your tough enough to handle a 30-06. Geez. I think you need to re-read what I posted and not muddy the water further by mentioning the recoil of yet another obsolete cartridge, the 35 Whelen. Now, you are calling the writers at Speer ignorant. Well perhaps they are. I don't know them...all I did was paraphrase their comments and the fact that the cartridge is now obsolete shows that the 358 Win is not popular. That says enough in itself. Then you make a comment that when sighted in at 200 yards, a 358 Win is superior to any small bore. Well, that sort of statement shows all the readers where you are at.

Just remember Paul, I never said the 358 Win was a bad caliber, just not a good choice.