[QUOTE]Originally posted by Eagle Eye:
As it turned out, he wasn't a new shooter but that wasn't known at the time I posted.

Eagle Eye,
IMHO, I believe that you insulted the original poster. If you had read his post carefully, you could have read some experience into the way he worded his questions. Your response to Bearguide suggested an assumption that the poster was a newbie. I can not speak for him; however, I think that you remind me of the fellow that ate the whole pig before he had a chance to figure out that it was pork, which was what he was after all the time. Lighten up, dude! I will give you credit for genuineness in desiring to "save" newbies rather than my hasty opinion that you just wanted to hear yourself talk.
My last opinion is forthcoming now: I feel that "newbies" will pale and probably take more harm from listening to the crap that they might read on some of these posts from people who profess to supply only opinions and then hammer anyone that might disagree. If I wasn't so even tempered and good looking I might post something other than my
HUMBLE OPINION.
best,
bhtr

P.S.
30.06 with 180 grain premium
2x7 compact scope
22" barrel
Ruger/Winchester/Sako

[This message has been edited by bearhunt'r (edited 01-24-2002).]

Well excuse me! By the way, your rifle/ammo recommendation is a heck of a lot better than some ol' 358. Stay warm.

One of Alaska's greatest Brown Bear guides, legendary Hal Waugh, had two choices for calibers in his working rifles and one was the .358. Considering his reputation, enough said! Choosing a rifle that you can shoot well is a good choice. If all you can handle is a 7-08, shoot it well and enjoy but don't knock the choices of others because of your personal limitations.

Dogger,

my choice: Remington Model 7, Remington Custom Shop model, Burris glass, .350Rem.Mag.
another of those obsolete rounds that under conditions you describe is lightning in a bottle!

I'm really amazed at this crap about the .30-06 being too much recoil. I started shooting a .30-06 when I was about 13-14 years old, and most of the other guys in high school started with the .30-06 or .270. Every US infantryman from 1906 through about 1955 carried and shot a .30-06.

And I don't give a rat's ass about how many gun writers say what. I have known hundreds of people over many years that shot .30-06s and I can't think of any that complained about the recoil. Maybe it's just rampant wimpiness in some localities....

For the original question,-- the .308 will do what you want. So will the .30-06. Both work well with 180 grain Partitions, the .30-06 works with 200s. Most of the other cartridges mentioned would work well. I think that I would pick 8x57JS, 200 grain Partitions, in an appropriate bolt action. Maybe something different next week.

[This message has been edited by Infidel (edited 01-24-2002).]

Brno ZG-47 Mauser-type bolt action caliber 30-06, 180-200 grain controlled expansion bullets, 6x Leupold in lever release detachable mounts. This rig, using various loads, will do it all.

When the army tried to standardize the .30-06 issue ammo to shoot the long range machine gun bullets the soldiers who had to use the round in Springfields complained enough to force a reissue of the 150s.
I'm a 6.5mm fan, and have yet to see any black bear that a 140 grain partition wouldn't kill as dead as anything else. Try the .260 Remington, you might like it. I prefer a bolt action, cause I handload.

Slamfire: It sure is nice to read an intelligent post for a change that isn't overflowing with testosterone.

338-06 on a Mauser 98 system action.
Leupold 2.5x8 Vari-X III

------------------
NRA Life member

I'm late getting into this one, but what the hell. Look's like the water is fine. I'm jumpin'in.
First off, Eagle Eye, don't consider this a flame, OK? The .358 is one hell of a round. I have two, and would buy more if I could find them.
Let's backtrack a bit. Some history, OK? When the .358 came out, the late great Jack O'Connor made the comments that it was nothing more than a short range brush load that kicked too damn hard. Seems like, when Jack praised something, it sold well, but if he badmouthed it, the round was doomed. That good old boy had a lot of influence in the gun world; witness the pre-64 Mod. 70 and the .270 Win. Both his most favored items.
Granted, there are few new rifles in .358 to be found. That's because the round has never been given the credit it deserves. Also, the American shooter has, for some odd reason, never taken to rifles in 35 caliber, the .35 Rem. not withstanding. Something I have never quite figured out.
Brass is no problem to find. Can't find ,358 brass, just use .308's and size the neck up. End of problem.
Winchester has not dropped the .358 brass or loaded ammo entirely, although they no longer load the 250 gr. bullet they will still load 200 gr. bullets and furnish brass "on a seasonal basis". Dumb move in my opinion. FWIW, .358's are readily available here in Tucson, AZ while .35 Whelen is harder to find, especially in 250 gr. bulleted rounds.
A Ruger 77 in .358 isn't too hard to find. I just got another one last week.
Now the original poster said his Ruger 77 was too unwieldy in the areas where he hunts. No problem. Have a good gunsmigh cut and crown his barrel back the the length he wants. A 1x4X or 1.5x6X scope would be perfect.
I've always felt that Ruger made a mistake in not making the International in .358. (BTW they were extremely rude when I asked their rep at the NRA convention in Phoenix about 8 years ago. "No f-----G way" were his exact words. My wife witnessed that remark.)
In my opinion, the .358 got a bad start when a very very popular gun writer, with too damned much influence on the shooting publc, badmouthed the cartridge. It never had a chance. The funny part about it, those that have it and use it feel strongly otherwise.
Now as to your comments about the "egg-spurts" in the gun rags. There are so few that I have any respect for, that I can just about name them on one hand, and some of them are dead. I won't mention any names, because I don't want those prostitutes of the gun world sueing me. I feel that when these guys say that the Remchester Ultra Short Killem Dead .292 Tornado Hurricane is the greatest round to come out since Adam and Eve discovered sex, well you get my point. When editors of Shooting and Blasting Magazine tell me that their writers have so much more experience than I do, so therefore are much better shots than me, well horsecrap. I was shooting and hunting long before some of those guys were even born.
Just for kicks, let me give one simple example. The 30-06 with a 1 in 12 inch twist barrel will not stabilize a 220 gr. bullet. Wanna bet some serious money on that one?
Another is the .375 H&H will break your collar bone if you're not carefull. Oh yeah? BTW, the writer, now long dead said he took his new .375 H&H on a Whitetail hunt and when he got his shot the gun knocked hin on his can. Yeah. Sure buddy. Feed me another one. I have been known to shoot "popguts" pocket gophers for those who don't know what "popguts" are, with a .375 H&H. I did it to get used to a new .375 before taking it on a hunt. I did 100 rounds of factory Winchester 300 gr. Silvertips that day, with hardly a bruise.
Back to the .358. Check out an article on (www.sixgunner.com) on the .358 by Paco Kelly. It'll open your eyes a bit.
As to the .35 Whelen? It ain't obsolete either. I have two and am planning on two more. One is a factory Ruger 77, the other a custom Oberndorf Mauser. The Ruger has a 1 in 16" twist which I feel is a bit too slow for the heavier bullets, the cusom, a 1 in 13" twist. I want one with a 1 in 12" twist and the other is a Browning 1895 in 30-06 that I want to convert to .35 Whelen.
Those of us who have tried 35 calibers in the field, and have seen what they can do, love them. I wonder why?
I suggest you chase one down and try it. You just might like it. You would also join an elite group of riflemen who have found a better way. I like the .35 caliber
FWIW. If the proginal poster can find a Ruger Mod 77 in the International version in .308 Win. that would work out perfectly. I would suggest a 180 gr. round nose bullet for his purposes. For some reason, the three Ruger International my wife, son and I have won't shoot 180 gr. spitzers worth a damn. I find the 165 gr. Speer SPFB gives good, if not spectacular results. I have dropped deer out to 250 yards with the 165 gr. Speer. (Distance laser measured) Bullet hit the chest and ended up resting against the right rear leg bone, breaking that.
All the above comments are my opinion only.
Eagle Eye. If you wish to debate all this privately, feel free to do so. There are a few things I won't put out in open forum, but am willing to discuss on a private basis.
Paul B.

Hey Paul, so you like them '35's, I take it? LOL!

I was converted to the church of '35 when I shot my moose with my Whelen. When you get a through-n-through on a moose, things are good. Is a 35 necessary for a bear? Like I said earlier, no, but if you want to go end to end, it is nice insurance to have. I don't have a 358, but it (or the 348) would find a quick home in my gun-cabinet if I ran across one in a pump or a bolt.

Facts are, the 358 is the 308 with 15% more energy and more frontal area to use that energy. It has no more recoil than a '06. I is easily point-blank-range on bear to 250 yards. The only negative I've heard is that not every box-a-year hunter has one -- and I can live with that. JMO, Dutch.

Hey Dutch. You got that right. IO was on an elk hunt up on the Olympic penninsula in Washington State. I was siting in a swamp on a log, when I figured I could've used something short, light and with stomping power it that area. It seemd like something like the .358 just might be the answer. (Remington hadn't come out with the Whelen yet.) When I got back home (in Tucson) I was looking in the paper to see if any interesting guns were for sale. (New anti-gun editor won't allow ads for private sales anymore, damn her eyes!) Anyway, there was this ad for a Ruger 77 in .358, so i cut it out and stuck it in my wallet with the intention of calling the guy in the morning. Well, I completely forgot about it until about six weeks later when I made my six months ritual of cleaning all the juck in my wallet. There was the ad. Well, just for the hell of it, I called and they still had it. $250, new in the box. I told the guy my name, give me 45 minutes to get there, consider it sold. I've never looked back. It had the prettiest stock you ever laid eyes on. I took it out of the stock and placed it in a McMillan. Gun shoots .75 to 1.0 inch with everything I've put in it.
I just bought another one from a friend who never shot it. He got is used,but disregarding a few minor scratches in the wood, it looks "as new."
I like my Whelen's as well. Big problem here in AZ is getting drawn for a tag. We have excellent deer, elk and antelope hunting, but in 23 years, I've drawn deer 7 times, elk three, antelope a flat zero. That goes for desert sheep, and buffalo as well. They have a weird deal on bear hunting too. Once so many sow bears are killed, the season ends. What I can't figure out is area 27 has a limit of something like 26 sows. Area 1 has a limit of 6. Now the northern border of 27 is up against the southern border of area 1. I guess they figure the bears recognize the borders and don't cross them. Go figure.
I guess I'm hooked on 35's big time. The only reason I haven
t gotten a .35 rem. to play with is I haven't found one for sale in my area. I'd get a .358 Norma mag, but I already have a .375 Taylor, (.375x338 Win. Mag.) so what's the use?
Keep your powder dry and your 35 handy.
Paul B.

Hey Paul....I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but I'll post it once more...

I am not against the 358 Win, the 35 Whelen or any other flavor for that matter. Furthermore, I don't give a crap if anyone chooses to use one. In fact, I was thinking about having a 35 Whelen made for myself. My point was that since it can't be bought in a factory new rifle today, I don't think we should be recommending it for a new purchase for someone. You don't have to agree with me...I really don't care either way....it was my opinion.

If you look back and read who was supporting the 358 for this man in Virginia, it was mostly those from Alaska (with the exception of a few like Dutch and someone from a God forsaken place called Ontario ). [I should know, I was born there]. I understand the support for a big caliber from places like Alaska...they have some mighty big bears up that way that have man on the menu. But in Virginia? Heck when push comes to shove, you said basically the same thing I did... 308 short action carbine is the ticket. In fact, 95% of the posters in this string said the same basic thing.

The other sticker in this string that at least one big guy took exception to, was my comment about recoil. It doesn't bother me...I shoot every week pretty well year round and have been hunting and shooting for 30+ years. I simply and accurately stated that recoil isn't everyone's best friend and the 30-06 is at about the upper limit of recoil tollerance for beginners. Having said that, I realize that certain posters in this string are such he-men, they would never admit that such a thing as recoil even exists . The truth struck a chore I guess.

As for your comments about gun rag writers, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I happen to like the writing of P.O. Auckley, Jack O'Connor and a current writer by the name of Jon Sundra. Lots say they don't like Sundra and I really don't care about that either. He calls a spade a spade and I respect that. Better that than pussy footing around an issue like Boddington does....but that is another story for another string.

Have a good one. EE

[This message has been edited by Eagle Eye (edited 01-25-2002).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Eagle Eye:
[B]Hey Paul....

If you look back and read who was supporting the 358 for this man in Virginia, it was mostly those from Alaska

Hey Eagle Eye,
Just thought I would set the record straight. The tally is actually:
Alaska-2 Idaho-1 N.Dakota-1 Texas-1
Arizona-1 Ontario-1 I Dunno-1 (could possibly be from Alaska though the rascal did not own up to it. )
By the way, I did approve of your outfit recommendation as well.
Just thought you might as well know, more and more of us hear in the "Greatland" are putting the peashooters like the 375 H&H and 338 Win Mags up and moving to 416 caliber pieces...thank God for testosterone .
best!
bhtr

[This message has been edited by bearhunt'r (edited 01-25-2002).]
"We may be gun-literate yet darn computers don't always shoot at 1 minute or less!"

[This message has been edited by bearhunt'r (edited 01-25-2002).]

My choice has been the .358 Winchester. I have been killing deer with it since 1966. At present I own 3 rifles in that caliber and they are all sighted in, scoped and ready to go.

The writer in Virginia infers that by starting from scratch that anything is possible. Now this is the American way! Is it not?

I feel that the .358 Winchester loaded with 180 gr Speers or the 200 gr Silvertip factory loads is the idea woods cartridge. If the game were bigger then you match the bullet to the game.

The 180 gr Speer bullet is 100% effective out to 240 yards. I am positive of this.

Eagle Eye is just talking. I have been there Eagle Eye! The .358 Winchester makes me hunt better. I have so much confidence in that round.

I have 30-06's, a .308, a .300 winny, a 8x57JR and a couple of .375 H&H's for game and I reach for the 99F in .358 when I am serious.

Hmmm...

Haven't seen any .358s around here, altho have read good things about them from that fella who writes about Kifaru rifles on the web. Can't recall his name.

The Ruger M77 Mannlicher in .308 sounds interesting.

I have an M38 Swede I could pull off of consignment, restock, shorten the barrel, stoke with 160 grainers.

Thoughts?

Well Don:

It seems now that you are the one that is just talking....you keep going on and on about the virtues of the 358.

Bearhuntr: You weren't the testosterone laddened soul I was referring to. By the way, I have been to Alaska and have seen how big some of those bears are....you should be carrying 416's!

Well Dogger: The fact that you haven't seen any 358's in your region is one of the main reasons why I posted about not recommending it to you in the first place. Thank you for setting the record straight.

Eagle Eye,
I knew that! I just had to admit that my tongue was in my cheek!
best,
bhtr

Eagle Eye,

There are absolutley no words that you can write that will change the fun and success I have had with the .358 Winchester. It's a history of 36 years where most of my lifetime of hunting was done.

Be well.

Eagle Eye. Check out an article on (www.sixgunner.com) by Paco Kelly on the .358 Win. He feels the round is underloaded by the factory and is capable of doing a lot more.
There is also an article in Paco's archive section, which is unfortunately, a bitch to download, but if you can get it, a really interesting read. I'm thinking about working up to his loads in both cartridges, but this, along with another project I have will wait to at least early summer. I figure any load worked up to max in Tuscon's 100 plus degrees summers should be safe come hunting season.
I hardly ever shoot factory ammo anymore, other than to test for case expansion in a new rifle prior to handloading for it.
A good example, getting back to the .35 Whelen, is factory ammo is rated at 2400 FPS. They clock only 2310 and 2350 FPS in my two Whelens, The loads in Paco's article reach 2530 FPS. Load data for the Whelen in early Speer manuals are close to Paco's data, at least up to the Speer Manual #8.
Factory .270's used to clock close to 3100 FPS with a 130 gr. bullet. have you chronied any of those lately?
If you do consider building a .35 Whelen, I would suggest trying to find a clean commercial Mauser 98. One of the real sleeper is the J.C. Higgins Model 50. There is enough wood on the stock to remodel the rifle into some thing nice. The most common calibers are 30-06 and .270 Win. so there should be no work needed on the action rails. Just a rebarrel job. Seems like the most popular twist is 1 in 16, which seems to be OK for bullets up to 250 gr. My next one will have a 1 in 12 inch twist for possible use of heavier bullets.
I have a friend that has a Ruger #1 he rebarrelled to the Whelen with a 1 in 10 inch twist. He got a moose with it last fall. I forget how far out it was, 200 and something yards, but he dropped it with one shot. Another friend in Alaska got his moose at about 250 yards, if i remember right. One shot through both shoulders and one dead moose. Round sounds like a winner to me.
If one wants a .358 Win., you might have your local deal check with Ruger, as they have made a few limited runs in the Mod. 77 in .358. They are well worth the search, or even the cost of rebarreling to have one.
I picked up a Steyr Mauser (1912-61) that was originally a 7x57 that brazil converted to .308. Unfortunately the barrel was ruined by corrosive priming and is totally useless.
I haven't decided whether to build up a Scout rifle out of it, or rebarrel to .358 with a 19 inch barrel and Mannlicher style stock. Decisions, decisions, decisions.
Be fore I forget, If you try to get that article on the .35 Whelen, and can't get it, send me an E-mail with a snail mail addy and I'll run off a copy. I downloaded it onto my hard drive so I have it available.
Paul B.

Hey, wait a minute. Contrary to what was implied, I wasn't done yet. What's this stuff about not being able to get a 358 or 35?

Do we have to have everything handed to us? Go to your local gun store, and buy a used Savage 110 for $150. Then, call Midway, and order up a A&B barrel in Whelen for $160 bucks, with a barrel nut wrench. Use a factory case (pulled, of course) to headspace on. Voila, a Whelen for $325 or so.

If A&B isn't your thing, PacNor will send you one for $270 or so, and I'll bet dinner it'll shoot the left testicle off a gnat at 100.........

Hard to get? Only if you don't like to play with guns..... JMO, Dutch.