The concept that may be being missed involves the idea that an individual that has put in the TIME to become skillful at shooting Long Range, worked at acquiring the specialized equipment required for Long Range shooting, is not the problem. Even though I and others may not agree with it, if they can do it and are comfortable/competent doing it, let them enjoy themselves.

It is those Elmer Fudd's that do NOT put in the time/effort/energy and money to acquire the knowledge/expertise or proper equipment, that cause concern.

I am more concerned with wounding game by anyone at any distance. A deer wounded and lost at 75 yards is no different than one wounded and lost at 500 yards. At least not to me or the deer..

I have never regretted not getting closer, but there was a Bongo once that I would have paid big bucks if he would have been farther away when I shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
The concept that may be being missed involves the idea that an individual that has put in the TIME to become skillful at shooting Long Range, worked at acquiring the specialized equipment required for Long Range shooting, is not the problem. Even though I and others may not agree with it, if they can do it and are comfortable/competent doing it, let them enjoy themselves.

It is those Elmer Fudd's that do NOT put in the time/effort/energy and money to acquire the knowledge/expertise or proper equipment, that cause concern.

Any person capable of making shots at 500 + yards should be even deadlier at 50.

quote:

So if you aren't in that big cranberry marsh what is the rest of the country like, what length are your shots then

Dairy farm country...800 yard shots would be readily available and 1000 or more wouldn't be uncommon, if one wanted to shoot that far. It doesn't take much farm land to shoot 1000 yards...I might be wrong but just an average 80 acre field is about 600yds if square and any farm I know of fields much larger than that. If you're in the woods then of course your shots are well under a 100.

The idea that one simply has to practice to make 1000+ yd shots is a joke. Gunwerks likes to pat themselves on the back, but it isn't hard to find videos of them hitting elk far outside of the vitals. Matter of fact after watching long range shooting videos it seems to me a hit anywhere on the animal is viewed as success.

i learned how to hunt deer in NY'S adirondacks hunted there for 10 years stalking and still hunting and never shot a deer up there past 35 yards same when i moved to fulton county and the same in the catskills where i now hunt.the longest shot on deer for me was 55 yards in dutchess county ny with a smooth bore ithaca pump.i do have one spot in the catskills where i could get off a shot at 200 yards. and may hunt there this year. with that said i have brothers that have borrowed my ultra slug gun and have taken deer at 188 and 210 yards in dutchess county ny. these guys hunt tree stands and ground blinds along fields. i will be hunting some of those fields for long range coyote shooting. my long range is different then others ,while i have the ability and equipment to shoot long range i limit myself to under 400 yards but usually under 300.i imagine that if i was born and raised in Montana or Wyoming i would have a much different statement hear. Just keep it ethical and enjoy yourselves.

quote:

Any person capable of making shots at 500 + yards should be even deadlier at 50.

PLUS 1

I don't have any stalking skills for deer. Not enough experience. So, no for me. My reasoning is that getting my rifle to shoot under half an inch at 100 yards was necessary 'just in case' a clear long shot of 250 yards (my limit according my shooting skill level) presented itself.

And there you have the problem. Without any woods skills, how does one expect to go to the point when the animal was and find blood or tracks. And if he does, how does he spoor the animal. Even with a lethal wound an animal can go a long ways.
Perhaps, along with range time, a person should spend some non-hunting time in the woods developing woods skills. And too, there are a great number of books that can get you started.

quote:

I don't have any stalking skills for deer. Not enough experience. So, no for me. My reasoning is that getting my rifle to shoot under half an inch at 100 yards was necessary 'just in case' a clear long shot of 250 yards (my limit according my shooting skill level) presented itself.

And there is the answer, Knowing One's Personal Limits!!!!

When does one realize that they have limits?

Ive shot a lot of elk and deer at 300 to 400 yards, mostly I use the .338 Win. and where Im hunting in Colorado near Walzenburg all shots at elk are 300 yards unless you can catch them in the alfalfa fields and it still might be 300 yards, but mostly 100.....

If I have a rock or tree for a rest and they are standing I can make the shot consistently and I have yet to lose one...

IMO every hunters skill level should be 300 yards with standard calibers..For those ranges I like the .338 Win. and 225 gr. Accubonds or partitions.

I do respect those who admit there skill levels are 100 yards, knowing your skill level and honering it is to be praised..I know a lot of guy that can't shoot worth a flip and they take all manor of shots, like the eskimo lady, mrs. Hailstone on the Alaskan TV show that shoots caribou at fantastic ranges with an old Russian iron sighted junker of a gun..Lord knows how many she has wounded..but they don't film that. What amazes me is the Alaskan shows and the folks that live their need to keep shots at 50 yards, they can't shoot for beans..

quote:

Originally posted by custombolt:
I don't have any stalking skills for deer. Not enough experience. So, no for me.

So get out there and get some! There isnt a single bloke on this board that didnt start off that way at some point.

Happy hunting.

quote:

And there you have the problem. Without any woods skills, how does one expect to go to the point when the animal was and find blood or tracks. And if he does, how does he spoor the animal. Even with a lethal wound an animal can go a long ways.
Perhaps, along with range time, a person should spend some non-hunting time in the woods developing woods skills. And too, there are a great number of books that can get you started.

Just some observations from my own experiences over the years.

Spending time at the range getting to know your capabilities and the capabilities of your rifle, is essential, the only downside is that targets at ranges are at measured distances. In the field, unless you are in Texas hunting from a enclosed box blind placed at a measured distance from a feeder, game never seems to show up at a measured 150 yards or 250 yards. Also in the field there is a major shortage of bench rests to shoot from.

I have also noticed that critters don't do much reading, and all too often, other than some of the very basic information the writer may have never hunted in the same area as a reader does, under the conditions the reader has to deal with or possibly only hunted a particular species one time. Books can be a good starting point, spending time in the field during the off season, to me is a better way of learning.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

If I have a rock or tree for a rest and they are standing I can make the shot consistently and I have yet to lose one...

I almost never shoot offhand over 50 yards. If they're further away that that there's always time to get a fanny pack on the ground and shoot prone.

I won't shoot unless I'm close enough to feel I have a high probability of putting a shot in the vitals. The closer my shot the better I like it. I passed on a shot for the first time last October -- the only shot I had on an elk that season -- as it seemed on the edge of my capability. This off season I am working on determining more precisely what my limitations are. Part of that involved getting a laser range finder. I've done that. Now to get out on open range and find out how far I can shoot accurately.

There was no option of getting in closer. This elk was moving from feeding to security cover, and unless I could walk faster than an elk can walk -- while simultaneously remaining out of sight and silent -- I couldn't close the distance.

I do most of my deer hunting with traditional muzzleloaders or archery tackle, so I have to get close. But even with a rifle I prefer to be inside of 200 yards. I can and have killed game at 400 yards, but it's not something I prefer to do.

FWIW, I'm more impressed by guys that can kill a deer every year with traditional archery gear than I am with somebody shooting them at 500+ yards.

The ability to get closer and the ability to reliably make long shots both matter, IMO. I like to stalk, but am not afraid to take a long (reasonable) shot with a good rest. I practice so I know my limitations, and have confidence within them.

A few years ago, while hunting mule deer in Idaho, I spotted a likely suspect well over a mile away on the next mountainside. Watched him bed down in a nest of rocks/brush. Slung my pack, took off on a stalk, and a couple hours later shot him (with a .300 WSM) when he stood up at about 25 yards. One shot dropped him in his tracks, and I was soon packing meat.

Also a few years ago (but not the same year), I was elk hunting near Crested Butte, CO. Spent a VERY cold night wrapped in a sleeping bag on a ground sheet at a touch over 13,000 feet elevation. Just after daybreak, still packing my gear, I watched a nice bull come over the crest of the mountain at a steady walk, heading for the black timber below. I laid the same .300 WSM across my saddle and dropped him mid-stride with one shot. Shortly thereafter, I lasered him at 467 yards (I "guestimated" the shot at 450 when I took it, didn't have time to laser it before the shot). Again, was soon packing meat.

Another elk hunt, north of the Rio Grande reservoir in CO, I was sitting with a friend's son about 50 yards below the divide, looking across a valley at 6 small herds, each with a bull, one in each of several finger canyons that all fed into that central valley. Our stalk was interrupted by an abrupt cliff that fell off several hundred feet. That's where we set up. Long story short, within an hour we had both shot and killed a bull... mine at 435 yards, and the boy's at 480 (we had time to laser each, and set up for the shots- mine with the same .300 WSM, his with a 7mm Mag. It took 6 hours to ride from where we were (where we shot from) around and down to where they dropped, due to rough terrain.

Bottom line for me, is that, while I try my best to get close, and prefer it, I also know what I am capable of, using gear I am familiar with. I am not opposed to taking a longish shot if that's what I am faced with. I do require a good rest, and just won't pull the trigger if conditions fall outside of my parameters. But, I don't automatically wave off a long shot just because someone else thinks it's not "hunting". My "hunt" is everything that takes place prior to me getting a shot opportunity, and it doesn't always result in a shot being fired.

My last buck was killed at 6 feet with a japan 405 with open sites. I was on the ground. His breath looked like a race horse running in the winter. I will never forget it. He came to a challenge grunt call, and was bonding over 6 feet of saw bares.

So here is the nuts of it. A lot of guys that don't post here, or anywhere, or practice, or care take long (how long they have no idea)at game. A lot of them are drunk or were drunk or trespassing or poaching or whatever. They are the ones that give our pastime a bad name. There are not a lot of "long range" hunters. Long range does not begin until after 400 yards for most hunting cartridges. Drop and even wind is fairly easy to address under 400 with the same amount of practice it takes to master shooting positions and trigger control. I have found that it also much easier to stay calm and concentrate when watching game from over 100 yards. The game is also relaxed and you generally have time range and calculate wind. Another thing, at range you typically are not shooting an auto loader and planning your next 3 shots. Again - most of us on sites like this don't either, but we are few, and "long range shooters" are even fewer. To be honest, I would put my money on the guys I shoot with to make one shot kills at 300 yards before guys I hear talking about deer camp at work at 50. I just think to lump people that shoot farther than 50 yards into the lot of people that give our sport a bad name is ignorant and irresponsible. Long live the king.

I try and keep my shots as close as possible.I shot two deer last year,one at 50yards the other at 85.Both were young and dumb.The buck I shot in Wisconsin was maybe 60 yards away and in thick cedar swamp that is long range.I really could care how far anyone shoots as long as they kill their prey.I practice out to 400 yards and do everything zI can to get much closer.In the West to me the stalk is the hunt.Sitting on a hill a 1,000 yards away twirling turrets taking wind readings,figuring the curvature of the earth and what ever is just shooting.No hunting skills involved.If that trips your trigger Good For You(GFY)

I think we have a problem here in that we try to put everyone in the same bucket, all long shooters are bad, only true sportsmen can stalk to 40 yards, Nobody can kill an elk at 3oo yards..

It's all bullshit...The only requirement is the hunter knows his limitations, and sticks with what he can or can't do...Some can shoot better than others apparently and perhaps they believe the guy that won't shoot past a 100 yards should be selling shoes at Sears as opposed to hunting..I, personally don't believe in the latest fad of shooting game a 1000 yards as those guys wound a lot of deer, but some I suspect kill with every shot. Most folks can't even be truthful with themselves when it comes to this subject!

I believe myself to be one of the best shots Ive seen, but Ive had a hunt or two when I couldn't hit a bull in the ass with a base fiddle..and so have you if you have hunted enough.

I try to get as close as possible if I can but i'm also prepared to shoot to 400yds if needed.

I have shot coyote and prairie dog out past 500yds but never deer or elk. I like to practice out to 1000yds with my hunting rifles but I prefer to hunt and take shots on game closer. To many variables when it comes to a living animal.

I got after two guys I know who shot their elk at long distance. One guy borrowed a rifle that he had never shot before, took a shot on an Elk at 800yds and gut shot it. They tracked it for hours before they were finally able to find it again at 600yds. He took two more shots on it before killing it.

The other guy took a shot on an elk at 1340yds that was ranged. He made a bad shot and they were unsuccessful in locating that elk. So instead of trying to get closer on the next bull they opted to try for another long shot. Tracked it but at least they found it this time.

I was pretty disgusted when they started bragging about how long their shots were. I let them know it as well.

I agree with that, this thread is like most, you have radicals at both ends, too close and too far is the argument..

The real deal like most conversations of this sort are somewhere in the middle..An elk kill zone is about 20 inches take or leave 6 inches..A hunter with a rest should be able to kill that elk at up to 300 yards, maybe a bit more for some..The same applies to 50, 100, 200 yards, that is a reasonable kill zone on most any animal with a "proper caliber"..but each of us should get as close as possible, but in many cases in most places that is not always possible. This isn't that hard to do if your both a hunter that can stalk, and a hunter who can shoot.

If you can't do this then hunt more running coyotes and Jack Rabbits..If you live where you cannot do this then practice however you can and know your capabilities, wounding an animal is hard to accept.

quote:

Originally posted by Palladin8:
I try to get as close as possible if I can but i'm also prepared to shoot to 400yds if needed.

I have shot coyote and prairie dog out past 500yds but never deer or elk. I like to practice out to 1000yds with my hunting rifles but I prefer to hunt and take shots on game closer. To many variables when it comes to a living animal.

I got after two guys I know who shot their elk at long distance. One guy borrowed a rifle that he had never shot before, took a shot on an Elk at 800yds and gut shot it. They tracked it for hours before they were finally able to find it again at 600yds. He took two more shots on it before killing it.

The other guy took a shot on an elk at 1340yds that was ranged. He made a bad shot and they were unsuccessful in locating that elk. So instead of trying to get closer on the next bull they opted to try for another long shot. Tracked it but at least they found it this time.

I was pretty disgusted when they started bragging about how long their shots were. I let them know it as well.

Last week I was out shooting at LR with my .338 Edge. Took a shot at 800; held just under 2 MOA for wind and hit a few inches low and a 2 inches right. Spotted a rock at 1188 yards with a black spot on it. Shot once with a new case (not fire-formed) holding 1 MOA for wind. Hit a few inches left and one MOA high. Took another shot without adjusting holdover, but this time held 3/4 MOA and hit the spot.

I went out to find the 1188 yard rock; it shouldn't have been that hard since I shoot there every week. But after an hour, I could not find it. The "hills" that looked so obvious looked completely different once I got out there. I had to give up when it got dark.

So even if you can shoot far (and I am not saying I would shoot an elk at 1200 yards), once you get to the spot you shot, it looks completely different. You often have no idea where exactly that elk was if there is no snow or no way to track.

In time, technology will solve the problem as I am sure someone will copy the US military and put a GPS inside of a rangefinder with a compass. It will then "walk you" to the exact spot you shot. of course, you can also use your iPhone to something similar. This afternoon I am going shooting and will see if I can find that rock using my iPhone mapping app and internal compass.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by Palladin8:
I try to get as close as possible if I can but i'm also prepared to shoot to 400yds if needed.

I have shot coyote and prairie dog out past 500yds but never deer or elk. I like to practice out to 1000yds with my hunting rifles but I prefer to hunt and take shots on game closer. To many variables when it comes to a living animal.

I got after two guys I know who shot their elk at long distance. One guy borrowed a rifle that he had never shot before, took a shot on an Elk at 800yds and gut shot it. They tracked it for hours before they were finally able to find it again at 600yds. He took two more shots on it before killing it.

The other guy took a shot on an elk at 1340yds that was ranged. He made a bad shot and they were unsuccessful in locating that elk. So instead of trying to get closer on the next bull they opted to try for another long shot. Tracked it but at least they found it this time.

I was pretty disgusted when they started bragging about how long their shots were. I let them know it as well.

Last week I was out shooting at LR with my .338 Edge. Took a shot at 800; held just under 2 MOA for wind and hit a few inches low and a 2 inches right. Spotted a rock at 1188 yards with a black spot on it. Shot once with a new case (not fire-formed) holding 1 MOA for wind. Hit a few inches left and one MOA high. Took another shot without adjusting holdover, but this time held 3/4 MOA and hit the spot.

I went out to find the 1188 yard rock; it shouldn't have been that hard since I shoot there every week. But after an hour, I could not find it. The "hills" that looked so obvious looked completely different once I got out there. I had to give up when it got dark.

So even if you can shoot far (and I am not saying I would shoot an elk at 1200 yards), once you get to the spot you shot, it looks completely different. You often have no idea where exactly that elk was if there is no snow or no way to track.

In time, technology will solve the problem as I am sure someone will copy the US military and put a GPS inside of a rangefinder with a compass. It will then "walk you" to the exact spot you shot. of course, you can also use your iPhone to something similar. This afternoon I am going shooting and will see if I can find that rock using my iPhone mapping app and internal compass.

Okay, so yesterday I went out again. Shot at 800 yards, then looked for the 1190 yard rock to shoot again. The bullet splashes had faded quite a bit. Shot at the rock again, then went out to find it. Took a compass bearing and headed out. I could see why I had trouble last week: the rock I shot at was much higher up a very steep hill (mountain if you are east of the big river), so I never saw it when I was close to it. From almost 3/4 of a mile, the rock didn't look like it was that much higher, but it was (and beyond two ravines I could not see either). If I had shot a deer (doubtful a deer would be there in the rocks) there I could easily see how I could have killed it cleanly and never found it.

I know this is a long winded story, but one of the issues of long range "hunting" that is rarely discussed is the issue of finding the animal after you shoot it.

I agree in that hold over is easy, its the wind that get me and when hunting one DOES NOT KNOW WHAT THE WIND IS AT THE TARGET..At least I don't and wouldn't consider packing that kind of sophisticated equipment with me while hunting.

Hell I seldom carry a camera anymore, more like a loaded rifle and 5 to 10 extra rounds and a stick of jerky and some Spearmint chewing gum to keep me from getting thirsty. If Im going to be gone all day I'll take a canteen.