I'd dope the wind, use my legs, circle the timber, and stalk a lot close. I'd have either my .300 Win. in-hand, or else my .338 Win., and with either one I'd do my best to make the situation work if possible, and if I had enough time. It may be best to try again later in the evening or else the next morning from a different location.
Deer are going to run sometimes no matter what you use on them. We've taken them with the old-fashioned (non-saboted) 12 gauge slugs where rifles are forbidden, had then plow thru lungs and/or heart, expand to 1" or so and still the deer has traveled 50-100 yds. Go figure!!??
Posts: 504 | Location: New Hampshire | Registered: 09 December 2001
Quote: Well out of the 60+ Whitetails I have shot with all kinds of rifles I have learned one thing. The smaller faster bullets work better then the bigger slower moving bullets. My 6mm-284 with a 95 Ballistic Tip traveling at 3486fps will drop a deer in its tracks faster then a 270,30/06,7mm STW,308 Norma Mag, 300Win Mag, and a 375 H&H.
Well, the only reason you 6mm bullet will kill a deer quicker is because the bullet got there faster.
I've shot all my deer with a minimum of a 270. And personally have only seen one move a few yards after the shot. It was a quartering to shot on a 120 lb buck. Popped him with a 150 ballistic tip at 14 yards. He ran about 10 yards. Every other deer has dropped where it stood. 270, 7mag, 30.06, and 300 win mag. And one antelope with a 300 Ultra Mag. ALL DROPPED.
And I've killed a fair number of deer too. By 1996 I hit the 100 mark, but this is with a bow too. I'm confident by now that I've killed at least 100 head with a rifle.
No doubt about it, speed kills, but your statement that the smaller faster bullets 'drops them faster' means one thing to me...the bullet got there quicker.
Bang flop is bang flop, no matter what you use. I would venture to say that my 168 TSX from my .06 are moving at least 2700 fps...and they all dropped.
Quote: Well out of the 60+ Whitetails I have shot with all kinds of rifles I have learned one thing. The smaller faster bullets work better then the bigger slower moving bullets
At any distance? Any angle? Or only during 'perfect' scenarios?
I would never doubt your experience, but the second sentence sounds like an absolute to me, and I respectfully disagree with it for all deer hunting applications.
Quote: Hold on now. You said in an earlier post that you would never shoot a .243 again if you shot a big one and he ran onto another's property.
Absolutely, 100% correct.
Quote:
What are you going to do when you have a chance at a real bruiser that is standing close to the border of your land and your toting the ole' X Bullets. Let's say the only shot you have through the brush is a lung shot and the bullet pencils, leaves little blood, and the deer runs several hundred yards onto neighboring properties to be claimed by other hunters.
Well, considering my experience with the TSX and the 14 animals that I've dropped with them so far, I have no reason to believe that any future results are likely to occur as you put them.
Is there a chance that the bullet will pencil, you bet, but I have to have faith in the equipment I use and that faith has been reinforced with each animal.
And to truly answer your question. I do not hunt on the borders of property. And, I also know all the hunters where I have a lease and we have already discussed such matters and how to handle them, per their request. But, given the scenario you proposed, I would aim, shoot, and watch the deer drop on the spot.
The way I was taught, if you shoot a deer, and it runs, especially onto another property, even if it was 'dead on it's feet', and another hunter puts it down, it's that hunters deer. I've never ever been in this situation, and it is my opinion that if I shot a smaller caliber rifle, I would INCREASE that risk. Plain and simple. That is my belief regardless of whether or not there have been 500,000 deer killed with a 243 and small bullets. I never have doubted it's killing ability. But in the not-so-long ago past, I've witnessed some heated arguments over a dead deer that has traversed property lines and all because the hunter that shot first was using a 243. I don't want anything to do with heated arguments with a bunch of guys holding rifles.
To sum it up, I have my personal taste in calibers, bows, etc. just like my truck. I shoot what I like, and my own experiences guide me in what to use and why. I've never had a questionable or risky situation using a 270 or larger caliber on deer and I've seen otherwise from 6mm calibers, so I choose not to use them.
As for distance I have shot 5 deer with that rifle over 400 yards all with one shot and all dropped on the spot. As for shooting angles I have taken a couple texas heart shots with it again one shot and it was good night. I have taken lots of hard quarting shots just in front of the hind also. (My average shot is about 200 yards.) Bullets always seem to make it into the lungs. If you are worried about penitration remember the 220 swift out penitraits the 30/06.
Quote: Well out of the 60+ Whitetails I have shot with all kinds of rifles I have learned one thing. The smaller faster bullets work better then the bigger slower moving bullets.
The next time your loading up some ammo try bigger faster bullets and get back to us!
As to your statement that the 220 Swift out penetrates the 30-06 I don't agree with that at all.
As for a bigger faster bullet I shoot a 140 Accubond at 3420 fps in my 7mm STW. On deer it does not do any better job then my 6mm-284. As for the 220 Swift and the 30/06 you might want to read PO Ackleys book. Now I will give you some tests I did myself with my 1 inch thick steel gong at 100 yards. I took my 375 H&H shooting a 300 grain Barnes TSX going 2585 fps and shot it into the gong. That bullet went in about a 1/4 inch. Then I shot my 300 Win Mag with a 200 grain Barnes TSX going 3005 fps and it went in about a 1/2 inch. I then shot my 7mm STW with a 140 Barnes TSX that is going 3450 fps and it went in about 3/4 of a inch. Do you see a pattern here? Faster lighter = Deeper in gong. Now what do you want to bet if I take a 85 grain TSX in my 6mm-284 crank them out about 3800 fps that will go even farther? Infact my father in laws 270 win with 130 Partitions going 3017 fps went farther into the gong then the 375 H&H.
Yes I do see a pattern Dakor and none of your posts agree with my actual experiance or theoretical knowledge. As to the reference to penetration in steel I thought this topic was about deer hunting?
c'mon Savage99, a guy with 100% success dropping deer on the spot from 400 yards is either the greatest shot around or something else. I kknow which one I think it is.
Posts: 3174 | Location: Warren, PA | Registered: 08 August 2002
Having had a little experience shooting a lot of deer I may as well throw in my two cents worth. I have shot fifteen deer this year so far. For culling my favorite caliber is the 22-250 as I will only be neck shooting. Thirteen shots and thirteen drop dead on the spot kills. This is with a 40 grain ballistic tip. Not bad performance but I wouldn't consider the 22-250 the ultimate deer caliber. I have used my 7mm Mag with 140 grain x-bullets on two trophy bucks. Both dropped dead in their tracks due to neck shots. I normally don't neck shoot trophy bucks but it was the only shot I had. I would consider the 7mm Mag and similar rounds the ultimate deer calibers. I like a combination of fairly high velocity along with a medium for caliber bullet. Hit a deer in the right spot and you can kill them with just about anything. If I do hit one in a bad spot I want a caliber and bullet that will completely penetrate and leave a blood trail.
Posts: 1557 | Location: Texas | Registered: 26 July 2003
Why not just use a 300 RUM with 125gr. Ballistic tips at 3800 fps? I think that the bullet would probobly open up and with that kind of speed blow a hole about 12 inches in diameter on the other side of the deer.
Now the mud starts. Well if you want to talk the talk why dont you make the drive to ND because season is back on and I have two doe tags to fill. Bring your old 06 and I will bring my 6mm-284. I will use your rifle on one and shoot one with mine. I will let you even pick the deer, the shot, and the range.
Dakor, Penetration in metal and in soft fleshy targets are completely different. High velocity is what makes for penetration in metal, Sectional Density is what results in penetration in flesh. In flesh a 168gr TSX in 30-06 will vastly exceed the penetration of a 50gr 220 swift bullet, I mean we are talking feet vs inches. On a hardened silhouette target a 180gr 30-06 will make a splash on the surface the 220 swift will make a hole clean through, which is why we ban 22 centerfires on our Silhouette range. Metal and Meat are two totally different things so unless you want way too much Iron in your diet you need to hunt with bullets of adequate sectional density.......DJ
Posts: 3976 | Location: Oklahoma,USA | Registered: 27 February 2004
Dakor, I haven't taken as many deer as you have but to say the .220swift out penetrates a .375, well my friend you are just spredin the BS now. As far as the steel plate thing, apples & oranges or meat & metal. I've shot through 1/2" steel plate w/ a .221 fireball @ 50yds but the same load only makes it 8-10" in wetpack. My .45colt's 300grLFP @ a lazy 1000fps only dimples the plate but penetrates the same wetpack almost 20"!!!! I know which one I take hunting for anything bigger than a coyote! Statements like that loose you a bit of credability, know matter how many deer you kill.
Posts: 7752 | Location: kalif.,usa | Registered: 08 March 2001
Quote: If you are worried about penitration remember the 220 swift out penitraits the 30/06.
I have no experience with a 220 Swift on deer. I think in most states where I hunt, it is illegal. However, every animal I've ever killed with a 30.06 has a pass through too.
Regarding the whole penetration issue. I find no relevance whatsoever in shooting a bullet into a cast iron piece of metal and shooting into an animal where diverse hydrostatic tissue is the resistance. I find them to not even be in the same equation.
The real test is plain and simple: Kill a few deer in as a controlled environment as possible (like a treestand overlooking a max shot of about 250 yards and a minimum shot of around 100) with a 220 Swift, and MY 30.06 with its 168 TSX bullets. I'll bet one months salary that my .06 bullet will always pass through a deer. And yes, I said ALWAYS. I would opine that the 220 Swift will pass through too on some shots, maybe all, but I'd really like to see that test done. I do not know where I could go and legally use a .22 cal rifle for deer.
The more I think about it, I do not think that every shot from the 220 will pass through. Unless we're talking a like bullet, ie. the TSX or a similar premium bullet. Only then would the 220 be more likely to zip through.
Geeez, as I said a long time ago, PREMIUM BULLETS ARE NOT NEEDED TO KILL A WHITE TAIL. And I think that is what drives a lot of this pissing contest. Everybody wants to use a so called premium bullet, "it cost more, it must be better". When, in fact, a Rem/Win/Horn/Speer standard bullet would be better suited to the task. I will say also that anyone that has not shot a deer and had it run a ways or "move out of its tracks" (that seems to be the latest buzz words) hasn't shoot many deer AND has been damn lucky.
As far as that picture that was posted, I didn't see any place that a deer could be that I couldn't get closer to.
Posts: 2037 | Location: frametown west virginia usa | Registered: 14 October 2001
Quote: As for distance I have shot 5 deer with that rifle over 400 yards all with one shot and all dropped on the spot
This is extraordinary. A friend and hunter I know bought a 243 based on a recommendation from his long time friend from high school. This high school buddy use to use a 270 exclusively. However, he injured his shoulder and has since gone to the 243 for recoil management.
The friend I know knew zilch about rifle hunting as we live in Ohio. He purchased the 243 and has hit over 10 deer with it in Kentucky. He found 4. I was told that several shots were in the 350-400 yard range and some were as close as bow range. He shoots handloads with Sierra bullets made by his high school buddy's father, who happens to be a good friend of Carroll Pilant from Sierra.
I know nothing of the bullet placement. But I can tell you that the guy is an efficient hunter and marksman.
When I invited him to go on a western hunt with me next year for mulies, he asked if his 243 would be good enough. I told him that he'd have to make that decision based on his own past experiences.
He bought a 7 mag about an hour ago...just called me before I entered this post. I guess he's not too impressed with his 6mm after all.
Quote: I will say also that anyone that has not shot a deer and had it run a ways or "move out of its tracks" (that seems to be the latest buzz words) hasn't shoot many deer AND has been damn lucky.
I am lucky. But I've killed a ton of deer. And no, I am not lying. I see no reason to. I admit it, I've been lucky.
And you are absolutely right. There is no need for a premium bullet for deer. However, you should know that persons motives.
You see, when I got into the TSX, it was because I wanted an extra tough bullet in case I bought an elk tag over the counter in Colorado. That is the ONLY reason I ever loaded the TSX to begin with.
If I never had any intentions of elk hunting and mulie hunting at the same time, I most likely would have never tried the TSX.
Having said that, I do not see where the extra expense is that noticeable on a major hunting trip. So what if I paid $22 for 50 TSX bullets. Hornady, Sierras, etc. are about $15-$19.99 per 100.
You don't NEED a $40,000 truck to drive to and from work. A used 1995 Pontiac Grand Am will do it. And most folks don't NEED to buy high octane gas at .20 cents more per gallon, but they do. See my point? I don't buy components based on what I need or what is a bare minimum or adequate or even proven in the field. I buy what I want and what shoots good in my rifles.
And I strongly disagree that the bullets you mentioned would be 'better' suited for the job. Tell that to the last few critters I've taken with the TSX.
"As good or equal to" would, in my opinion, be a more appropriate assessment when comparing DEER bullets.
Who give a shit about any of this?? The best deer cartridge is different for each hunter. I like my .243...I have harvested a pile of deer with it and Barnes X Bullets and I shoot the gun enough that I am very comfortable with it and know its limitations. I also have a handload that is very accurate. Now take my cousin. He LOVES his .30-30. He shoots the damn thing with open sights better than most people do with scopes. He buys factory ammo and has killed many deer with it. Now another friend of mine has a .25-06. For whatever reason, the gun is an extention of him...he used to have a .243 and as it turned out, wasn't the gun for him so he got rid of it. I know another guy who won't shoot anything but his .300. You could go coyote hunting and he has the damn thing. It is his favorite gun, and despite having a closet full of other calibers, he always seems to pull the .300 out. Another friend of mine has a .30-06. It is the only centerfire rifle he owns, and he refuses to purchase anything else. I have watched him kill deer, antelope, and elk with it.
If you can kill a deer with the firearm you carry in a quick, tasteful, and ethical manner, and it is something you are comfortable shooting, that is the ultimate deer hunting cartridge.
Doc you are forgetting one thing I have a 6mm-284 with the muzzle velocity I get I have more energy then a 270 shooting a 130 grain at 2900 fps. Now as for the test in wet paper yes I did that test the 7MM STW with a 140 and out penitraited the 375 with a 300 grain. Both bullets were a TSX I think that is a pretty fair test. As for the deer I shot that were over 400 yards they are not a big deal. Infact I never said anything about distance until you asked. As for the 220 swift and pentraition on deer with a X bullet I think you would be very surprised on how it does. I know even with a 50 grain X in my 223 that surprised me a lot. I know about sectional density the point I was trying to make is everyone thinks you need a dam 50cal to kill a deer and it isnt true. I have a 375 H&H, a 300 Win, 2 7mm STW's, and a 6mm-284 to choose from for deer. Now with those Rifle's to choose from if I did not think the 6mm-284 worked the best for deer size game why wouldn't I use something else? and yes I can shoot them all well.
Quote: Now what do you want to bet if I take a 85 grain TSX in my 6mm-284 crank them out about 3800 fps that will go even farther?
Dakor,
Do you have a copy of Sierra's #5 manual? They have loading data for the 6mm-284 Winchester in it. The maximum velocity with any load and 80 or 85 gr bullets is 3400 fps and not 3800 fps as you claim to crank them out!
Best deer rifle; shucks, that's down right easy....its my 35 Whelen......Actually I have killed a few with bow, .223 (yes legally) 30-06, 50 and 54 cal front stuffers using round ball...its all about the right rifle for that person. There are recorded kills of elk with a .243, of bear with a .22 long rifle. I know a guy who, years ago, killed deer with one shot using a 22 short and dropped them in their tracks....There are so many variables that one should shoot what one is comfortable with. Actually I really like my 6.5x55 swed.... As far as the article....who cares!!!! Lets go hunting thats my story and I am sticking to it....
Posts: 49 | Location: Indiana by way of Louisiana, Arkansas & Oklahoma | Registered: 25 December 2003
Quote: Doc you are forgetting one thing I have a 6mm-284 with the muzzle velocity I get I have more energy then a 270 shooting a 130 grain at 2900 fps.
I didn't forget.
My 270 has a 25.5" Hart barrel. It shoots the 130 TSX at 3148 fps. Please calculate the energy I am getting.
Regardless, even if you get more energy than the suggested 270, both contribute ample energy to kill a deer. Your bullet just gets there quicker.
Quote: Best deer rifle; shucks, that's down right easy....its my 35 Whelen......Actually I have killed a few with bow, .223 (yes legally) 30-06, 50 and 54 cal front stuffers using round ball...its all about the right rifle for that person. There are recorded kills of elk with a .243, of bear with a .22 long rifle. I know a guy who, years ago, killed deer with one shot using a 22 short and dropped them in their tracks....There are so many variables that one should shoot what one is comfortable with. Actually I really like my 6.5x55 swed.... As far as the article....who cares!!!! Lets go hunting thats my story and I am sticking to it....
AWW, c'mon now, everyone knows that bigass bullet goes too slow to penetrate a dawgone deer. Sheeyat.
Actually speaking of muzzleloaders...I shoot a 250 grain or larger bullet and 3 pyrodex pellets from my Knight. It always passes through deer. Well, so far anyway. I also used those 180 Red Hots for some time. They zipped through too.
Do you belive everything a reloading manual says? They down load the catridge a lot. Just like nolser's book says my STW is only supposed to shoot 140's at 3300 they are full of it. Maybe you should take a look around at some reloading data on the net. I shoot 85gr partitions at 3780fps with 54 grains of R-22 and no pressure signs. I also have a 28 inch barrel on that rifle.
I've shot 'em with a .270 and 300WM. Last year I had a short 50 yard shot on a buck broadside with my 270 shooting 130gr factory remington corelokts. The dang deer ran 100 yards. When we field dressed we found a bullet hole square in the middle of the heart.
I shot another this year with the 300 at 100yds with 200gr TBBC. It was devastating. Never saw a deer drop faster and it penciled through from the near shoulder to behind the far shoulder.
You guys are talking alot of mechanical variables and that's cool. What you're forgetting is that every deer dies differently and that's going to greatly affect how you perceive your caliber/bullet performance.
My take.
Posts: 468 | Location: Tejas | Registered: 03 October 2004
Quote: What you're forgetting is that every deer dies differently and that's going to greatly affect how you perceive your caliber/bullet performance.
I like the way my deer have died....INSTANTLY. And you are right...it greatly affected how I perceive my choices in equipment. Which is why I do not shoot a 6mm bullet.
Dakor, Please listen carefully. The reason that reloading manuals have data that is a little "downloaded" is that they actually pressure test their loads which obviously you don't. VELOCITY IS A PRESSURE SIGN . If you are getting velocities that are 580fps above what a pressure tested manual -in this case Hornady #6, you are running DANGEROUSLY HIGH PRESSURES . YOU EVENTUALLY WILL BLOW UP A GUN AND POSSIBLY HURT YOURSELF AND THOSE AROUND YOU < !--color--> . You are not some sort of magical reloader that can defy the laws of physics. You gun may be able to run 75-95,000 PSI for a while but eventually the gun will let go, I've seen it happen! A 28" barrel may be good for 100 to 150 fps, but the Hornady #6 manual lists 3200 fps as Max velocity with 52.8grs of WMR. Maybe the manual is listed to a lower PSI limit, but 3780 is flat dangerous. Layne Simpsons original loads for his 7STW didn't show any pressure signs in a carefully made and blueprinted rifle either, but when they were pressure tested they too were way out safety range. Traditional Pressure signs can be very misleading . Velocity is the best pressure sign an average reloader with a chronograph can use without real pressure testing equipment. Magic 300fps faster than everyone Else's barrels simply don't exist. Quit fooling yourself, you only get one set of eyes, hands and fingers don't endanger yourself.....Please...............DJ
Posts: 3976 | Location: Oklahoma,USA | Registered: 27 February 2004
Well doc I can see you are from the generation that still thinks you need 300 grain bullets to kill a rabbit and anyone that does not use a 300 grain bullet is a fool in your eyes because you guys are always right. So I am just going to let it be. I do know that anyone with any amount of experiance in deer hunting knows damn well a 243 with good bullets can easily kill a deer out to 300 yards with out any problems. If anyone trys to tell me any different they either have not tried it or can't put the bullet where it needs to go.
A 7mm 140gr bullet has a Sectional Density of .248. A 300gr .375cal bullet has a sectional density of .305. Given the same bullet construction and normal velocity the 300gr .375 will out penetrate the 140gr 7mm every single time. It's simple physics. Increased velocity will tend to DECREASE penetration due to more rapid energy transfer and faster expansion. If you had a 140gr 7mm TSX outpenetrate a 300gr .375 TSX at normal velocities, either there was something wrong with your test or you were simply mistaken. It won't happen. A 175gr 7mm bullet with a sectional density of .310 is a different story............DJ
Posts: 3976 | Location: Oklahoma,USA | Registered: 27 February 2004
Quote: What you're forgetting is that every deer dies differently and that's going to greatly affect how you perceive your caliber/bullet performance.
I like the way my deer have died....INSTANTLY. And you are right...it greatly affected how I perceive my choices in equipment. Which is why I do not shoot a 6mm bullet.
Oh come on a 243 is a dang good deer round. It's a flat shooting sonofagun. Everybody posting here has good points about their calibers from 22-250 up to 338 win mag.
You know what opinions are like Doc...everyone has one, but if you hold onto yours too tightly you're eventually going crap on yourself.
Posts: 468 | Location: Tejas | Registered: 03 October 2004
Statements like that loose you a bit of credability, know matter how many deer you kill.
