Absolutely crappy advise and a miopic view of the range of deer bullets/cartidges. Using the lightest bullet possible for deer may work on small does and bucks that he shoots, but using a sensibly sized bullet in the smaller bores is a must in the areas I hunt in, where you never know the angle/size/range of the shot to be taken.
Yea, when I got to pg.2 and the writer states, "now don't go out a rechamber all of your guns to a .243..." I stopped reading. It's just an opinion like the rest of us. However, when I've been with folks shooting a .243 for deer, they always needed follow up shots or the deer ran forever, or both.
I'm sure I have read worse advice in even poorer articles, it would just take me a while to think of it. Too many issues with this article to say any more
Posts: 2509 | Location: Kisatchie National Forest, LA | Registered: 20 October 2004
It's an interesting article but I think there are better choises for an all around Deer Rifle than a 243. I have a couple of 243's and I bought them for both of my sons when they were each 16 years old. Starter rifles and pretty good Varmint and deer rifles but, If I were to choose a dedicated deer rifle I think that I'd go with a 308 or a 30-06 and just change the bullet weights as the situation calls for. 150gr. would work well for most any White Tail, they sure seem to work well on the Mule deer around here.
Posts: 347 | Location: Ogden, Utah (Home of John M. Browning) | Registered: 08 September 2002
I think the 243 is an adequate deer rifle. However, I have a little bit different philosophy on starter rifles.
My plan, when my kids are a little older, is to tell them that it just doesn't get any smaller than a 7-08. So get used to it.
However, I will outfit the rifle with a nice decelerator pad and use 140 bullets. Or better yet, take a .270 with a muzzlebreak and let them use ear protection in the field. It's not too much trouble to do that.
I've posted it before but I've only seen one or at best 2 deer actually drop from a 243 and those were on Realtree videos. Non of my hunting buddies have had that happen. One lost what would have been his best deer ever, and it was huge, but after he shot it, it made it to the next property, about 200+ yards, and the neighbor hunters finished it. The 243 bullet was placed perfectly too. Unfortunate.
Quote: However, when I've been with folks shooting a .243 for deer, they always needed follow up shots or the deer ran forever, or both.
You must hunt with blind people or damn poor shots. My father has been using the 243 Win since he bought his Rem 700 in 1964 and has gotten at 1 deer a year or more with it and never lost one or had one go more than 70 yards. Only once has he had to shoot a deer a second time. A good hit with a 243 is better than a piss poor shot with a 338. Shot placement is everything.
I absolutely DO NOT agree with using an 85 gr hollow point (or any other HP, for that matter). That's completely nuts. no way
Posts: 504 | Location: New Hampshire | Registered: 09 December 2001
The popular gun author "John Wooters" wrote that the women and younger folk in their hunting group used to always use the 243 Win. After they switched over to the 257 Roberts the # of times that they had to track deer after the shot dropped by a large amount.
No I would not agree with the 243 being an all raound deer cartridge. I would say that it is more of an experts round.
I've talked to more guys that swear @ the .243 than by it for a deer/antelope round. I haven't hunted anything bigger than coyotes w/ it & that's about as far as I would go. To me, the .260 w/ the inadequate 120gr bullets is a good minimum. I loved the line about planning shots. I don't hunt from a baited treestand so my shots are more unplanned. That's the reason I like bullets that make bigger holes & can get to vitals from any angle, just in case. My "deer" rifle is a .280, but my .338-06 thumps them real hard.
Posts: 7752 | Location: kalif.,usa | Registered: 08 March 2001
I used to bum my dad's .280 on deer hunts and loved it. I've since converted to a 25-06 and love it. The only true "thumping" gun for deer is a 444 marlin, but that's just my opinion.
Posts: 96 | Location: Wyoming | Registered: 28 January 2004
the thing lots of shooters leave out in this type of discussion is bullet type/ quality.. we use nossler patitions in my boys 6mm and it puts down deer like a jackhammer.. its also broken an elks shoulder at 250 yards when my oldest sone was 12.. as said before its about shot placement, but the pill has to be the right medicine for the job.. were moving up to 30 cal becouse elk and deeer are on the venue.. 180 grain 06 and up i guess that includes 308 (and bigger) are excelent deer/ elk medicine. it kills an elk and wont blow up a deer.. the 6mm with nossler bullet took out two entire shoulders in a big doe my son shot this year. noone talks about the 45 70, its a great deer rifle.. i shot a doe with my sharps this year 60 grain bp 500 grain cast bullet, 100 yards the blood shot area on the far side was smaller than a half a dollar bill.. to each his own.. please just dont shoot them in the head.. i cant belive all the guys saying they shoot thier deer in the head.. if your on the swat teem ok.. please go shoot a kneeling or standing three shot group of about 4 inches at 150 yards if you want to shoot them in the head.. my opion only dave..
Posts: 249 | Location: central montana | Registered: 17 June 2004
I think his point is more about bullet choice than using a 243. He's recommending light bullets that can be driven to high velocity and expand fast. The goal is to put the deer down before it can get to the brush - which around here is usaully only a few yards. I imagine that there is some cost in-terms of meat lost - but that's better than the whole animal lost.
Posts: 196 | Location: NC | Registered: 21 June 2002
Quote: I don't really care what sort of logic you use. If you come to the conclusion that a 243 Winchester is the ultimate deer round you're wrong.........DJ
LMFAO !! Well said DJ. I have a couple of 243's and used them on squirrels to coyotes to antelope and I love them but the "ultimate" deer round, they're not!
Posts: 12728 | Location: Kentucky, USA | Registered: 30 December 2002
If you put a decently constructed bullet through both shoulders of any deer/antelope, I guarantee he doesn't go far. The bigger, better bullets just give you that many more options.
ffffg, I hear what you're saying about all of this head shooting. If guys are that good, caliber & even bullet integrity matter little.
Posts: 7752 | Location: kalif.,usa | Registered: 08 March 2001
Anyone who says that a Sierra psp is so tough that it wont even expand on an oak tree and then goes on to advocate varmint bullets for deer needs to put down the crack pipe.
That guy's more full of S&!T than a Christmas goose..
Posts: 10179 | Location: Tooele, Ut | Registered: 27 September 2001
Hey doubletrouble- Give it a try to each his own just like Doc mentioned its just another mans opinion just like everyone elses. I read a similar article a long time ago and tried it and never looked back it has worked tremendously for me I always get the stares and smack talk but what matters to me is not what others think and or say but what I seen work and it has worked for me. Ive tried most if not all premium bullets and they just dont do it for me im not saying theyre bad its just not my cup of tea so to speak im sure others swear by them and that is totally fine like I said use what works for you.
Happy Huntin'
Posts: 449 | Location: Kaneohe,Hawaii | Registered: 20 September 2004
My grandfather built 98s. the two that were around the house were a 250Savage(250/3000) &a 300Savage.
my grandfather- Henry Krohn
I killed my first 4 deer with the 250 with 87grn pills and used the 300Savage for everything after that until I got my first 30.06 at 16. We shot 150s in the the 300. We did shoot a lot and we usually tried to take neck shots. Of the 4 deer I killed with the 250, none of them had to have a follow-up shot. I really enjoy my .243 and wouldn't be hesitant to use it on Texas whitetail but I would be looking for a neck shot and not a lung shot. I prefer military cartridges but if I was going to pick the ultimate (small/lightweight) Texas whitetail cartridge it would be the 7/08. Personally I wouldn't pick it- I'd take a 308 over the 7/08 but that's my personal preference- I was always a BIG kid... I hunt with an .06 and use 150s for whitetail and antelope and 180s for anything larger. If I was a kid growing up in Texas today I'd want a 257Roberts or a 7/08 for my first rifle. And a 300WSM for my bigger rifle when I turned 16. my .02�....
Quote: Give it a try to each his own just like Doc mentioned its just another mans opinion just like everyone elses. I read a similar article a long time ago and tried it and never looked back it has worked tremendously for me I always get the stares and smack talk but what matters to me is not what others think and or say but what I seen work and it has worked for me. Ive tried most if not all premium bullets and they just dont do it for me im not saying theyre bad its just not my cup of tea so to speak im sure others swear by them and that is totally fine like I said use what works for you.
Very well put. Caliber is NO substitute for shot placement...
Posts: 504 | Location: New Hampshire | Registered: 09 December 2001
I don't like the concept of "ultimate", especially ultimate deer cartridges. LOTS of 'em work so well (deer aren't exactly bullet-proof) that any one of them could be considered the 'ultimate' deer cartridge by whoever happens to be an experienced user and fan of that cartridge.
Right now, my personal favorite 'ultimate' deer cartridge is the .338 Win. Mag. loaded with 210 Noslers. That's a whole different direction than the author of that article has taken, but the .338 flattens deer as though they are lightning-struck, and doesn't blow 'em up like like a .270 or even a .243 is prone to do, even with good bullets.
A 243 with good ammo is a perfectly adequate caliber for stand hunting small PA deer. I sure wouldn't be taking one to Alberta or anywhere where deer are big and shots are long. I personally use a 338 for deer now and have had great success with the federal 225 grain factory load. ps I am more of a one good rifle for everything guy than a perfect rifle for every situation kind of guy though.
Posts: 3174 | Location: Warren, PA | Registered: 08 August 2002
I think your rational is really logical. Some guys treat rifles like a bag of golf clubs -- there's a perfect caliber for every little ol' hunting chore. Mostly this sort of thing is an utter waste of time, energy, and resources. One good, all-around rifle can take in a lot of hunting, from deer to moose..........
Dj posted what is pretty much my thoughts. The writer is touting light bullets (varmint) bullets at high speeds. Nothing new, but they've got to write so many inches to get a pay check. This combo will give you some instant kills, but also, some spectacular failures -which you never hear about. I do agree that premium (read hard) bullets are not needed to kill white tails. At least not the ones they have around here. Since moving to WV, I have had good success using the Horn 154gr RN bullet in various 7mm's. I haven't had to chase any deer either. I don't claim it to be the "ultimite" but it would come close for my situation. Finally, I would think of a whole lot of other calibres before I would use the term .243 and deer rifle in the same sentence, and then it certainly wouldn't include the word "ultimate".
Posts: 2037 | Location: frametown west virginia usa | Registered: 14 October 2001
Quote: You must hunt with blind people or damn poor shots
Nope. Good shots and good bullets. Les is a damn good shot and he uses 100 Speer Grand Slams. And Dwayne uses Partitions. Just BIG deer that were able to run and run and run. But, these guys still love their 243's or they wouldn't hunt with them. I think it's great that your dad has been very successful. I just don't like the cartridge for deer personally and that's not even based on personal experience.
If I was in that ONE situation that ONE time and lost the biggest deer I've ever put a bullet in (in front of the diaphragm with a partition), and lost it to neighboring hunters because it was able to run over a couple hundred yards, I'd NEVER < !--color--> use the 243 again.
Quote: I think your rational is really logical. Some guys treat rifles like a bag of golf clubs -- there's a perfect caliber for every little ol' hunting chore. AD
So, I'm curious... Do you have little fuzzy covers for your Echols' Legends labeled "Driver" (.416), "Iron" (.375), "Sand Wedge" (.338) and "Putter" (.300)?
Quote: My father has been using the 243 Win since he bought his Rem 700 in 1964 and has gotten at 1 deer a year or more with it and never lost one or had one go more than 70 yards.
Well, that promotes my personal philosophy. I don't like it when a deer runs AT ALL when hit with a bullet. You may be fine with it and so may your father. I respect and appreciate your acceptance of this. However, if I want to have a deer run after I put something in front of the diaphragm, I'll shoot it with my bow.
When I gun hunt, I want it to drop in its tracks. That is my desire and philosophy. I just do not hear enough feedback on the 6mm bullet doing that when the bullet is placed behind the shoulder.
Quote: I don't really care what sort of logic you use. If you come to the conclusion that a 243 Winchester is the ultimate deer round you're wrong.........DJ
LMFAO !! Well said DJ. I have a couple of 243's and used them on squirrels to coyotes to antelope and I love them but the "ultimate" deer round, they're not!
Quote: Right now, my personal favorite 'ultimate' deer cartridge is the .338 Win. Mag. loaded with 210 Noslers. That's a whole different direction than the author of that article has taken, but the .338 flattens deer as though they are lightning-struck, and doesn't blow 'em up like like a .270 or even a .243 is prone to do, even with good bullets.
Nothing wrong with this at all. My current personal favorite is the 30.06 with the 168 TSX. I've posted the kills all over the place. Not one deer took a step.
Last year my favorite was the 270 with the 130 TSX. Not one deer took a step.
I forgot to mention previously that (let me get this right), my wife's sister's husband's father took my nephew ( my sister in law's son) deer hunting in Alabama for the first time 2 years ago when he was 11. He shot a doe at 60 yards in a field plot and she ran over 150 yards. Of course, my first thought was he didn't hit her good since it was his first deer. However, I saw pictures a few months later and he popped her right in the boiler room. So, my next thought was potential poor bullet choice. He shot the deer with factory Remington Core Lokt bullets 100 PSP (If I remember right).
I asked Charles (my nephew's grandfather by marriage) if he's had that happen before. He asked, "have what happen?" I inquired again about having a deer run so far after being shot with the 243. His response: "Oh, they usually make it about that far, sometimes less, but that's why we shoot them on the fields, so we can see where they fall. You can't find much blood on the ground with those little bullets but it kills deer just fine. I've never lost one."
So I asked him if he's ever seen one just drop at the shot. Answer, "Yea, of course, but I was using my 30.06."
So, I say, shoot whatever you want so long as you're happy with it. But there's no such animal as the 'ultimate' rifle for anything for everyone.
Merry Christmas everyone. Be safe and have a happy new year too.
I've been to Wyoming a few times and back in the 90's when I took my first trip there for an antelope hunt, I advised a few fellows on what to stuff in their 243's for the goats. One guy was hell bent on using the 95 grain btip. I cajoled the remaining guys to use a partition. I learned that it didn't matter.
Ralph shot his goat at 325 yards (paced) and it fell like some one dropped an anvil on it. 3 other guys took their antelope at various distances but they ranged from about 90-390 yards. Every antelope dropped, never taking a step, all good shots.
Then, one of the surgeons on the trip used his .308 ( a $2500 custom tactical looking sniper rifle that I thought was extraordinarily high priced...boy, how little I knew then) and he shot his antelope at less than 125 yards. His goat ran a long ways in my opinion...>100 yards. Another fellow we picked up in Phoenix shot his with a 300 Win Mag. He hit it 3 times with 2 bullets in front of the diaphragm, and it ran 50 or so yards. The distance was greater than 350. Both of the 30 cal guns were using 180 grain bullets, I do not know what kind.
So perhaps I can opine that a 243 (as I said before) is an adequate deer rifle, but a superb antelope rifle based on being an eyewitness.
I agree that the .243 is certainly not the "Ultimate" deer cartridge but, I would venture to say that it is just about as adequate for deer as a 30-06 loaded w/ Barnes X bullets.
I've seen a pile shot with each type and the results were often very similar. The .243 usually coming out on top when you consider the distance the deer traveled after impact.
Tough bullets such as the Xs often will "pencil" or open poorly when shot into soft spots on whitetails. When that happens, the deer don't bleed much(if any) and they run quite a ways (sometimes never found).
The soft bullets ran through a .243 will certainly open on whitetails usually resulting in quick kills but, they can also often result in slow kills.
I've witnessed far more deer shot w/ the .243 Soft bullets than the .308 Hard bullets and I would have to say that the .243 failed far less than the tough bullets in the bigger carts.
I guess one could say the "Too Small, Too Soft" arguement is no different than the "Too Tough" arguement because both can result in horrible failures.
Like you said we all have our opinions.
Good Luck!
Reloader
Posts: 4146 | Location: North Louisiana | Registered: 18 February 2004
If the guy wants a rifle that will shoot with a high velocity (speed kills) they why don't he use a magnum. He can have the speed in a larger caliber such as a 300 Win Mag without having to resort to light small diameter bullets. I have been trying to find the one gun for all large game I will have the opportunity to hunt on this continent and I have chosen the 300 Win Mag.
I think the more important issue that he did not cover is to get use to your firearm because of this reasoning I use the same manufacture of rifle such as Remington, and the same type of action. This way the stock feels the same and the trigger and safety function the same way. If a person keep switching from one brand to another and different type of action you have to stop and think where is the safety, do I have to pump, work the bolt, or keep pulling the trigger. In the time wasted the game may run off and you will lose your opportunity for that perfect shot.
Quote: You must hunt with blind people or damn poor shots. My father has been using the 243 Win since he bought his Rem 700 in 1964 and has gotten at 1 deer a year or more with it and never lost one or had one go more than 70 yards.
I have killed a LOT of deer in my life. I can safely say, the last 30 deer were taken with either a .358Win or a 45-70. All of them together would not have traveled 70 yds.
A 243 WITH the right bullet placement and with the RIGHT bullet can be effective on deer, IF you get the right shot presentation. I don't believe in the probabliity prospect of having everything having to go "just right" so I can reasonabley take my shot.
Posts: 624 | Location: Michigan | Registered: 07 April 2003
Quote: I agree that the .243 is certainly not the "Ultimate" deer cartridge but, I would venture to say that it is just about as adequate for deer as a 30-06 loaded w/ Barnes X bullets.
NO WAY!! NOT EVEN CLOSE BROTHER. UH UH...NADA...NOT A CHANCE
Well out of the 60+ Whitetails I have shot with all kinds of rifles I have learned one thing. The smaller faster bullets work better then the bigger slower moving bullets. My 6mm-284 with a 95 Ballistic Tip traveling at 3486fps will drop a deer in its tracks faster then a 270,30/06,7mm STW,308 Norma Mag, 300Win Mag, and a 375 H&H. I know this first hand since I have shot deer with all the ones I just named. I believe it is because the smaller bullets release more energy into the animal and speed kills. I have also taken about 20 deer with a 220 Swift using 50 to 55 grain bullets. Now I know I am going to hear this and that about how a bigger bullet and cal is better that might be true for animals bigger then deer but for deer smaller faster wins over bigger slower. Now as for the 243 debate it works great on deer. I know a guy that has shot over 100 whitetails with his and 5 black bear. He has never lost an animal and has taken shoots out to 500 yards on deer with no problems. I think people forget that there is not much to a deer even deer in the 250lbs range.
I agree that the .243 is certainly not the "Ultimate" deer cartridge but, I would venture to say that it is just about as adequate for deer as a 30-06 loaded w/ Barnes X bullets.
NO WAY!! NOT EVEN CLOSE BROTHER. UH UH...NADA...NOT A CHANCE
Hold on now. You said in an earlier post that you would never shoot a .243 again if you shot a big one and he ran onto another's property.
What are you going to do when you have a chance at a real bruiser that is standing close to the border of your land and your toting the ole' X Bullets. Let's say the only shot you have through the brush is a lung shot and the bullet pencils, leaves little blood, and the deer runs several hundred yards onto neighboring properties to be claimed by other hunters.
I'm glad you've had succes w/ the Xs on whitetails, just trying to get you prepared for what I've seen happen w/ the real tough bullets.
Keep using the Xs, it'll happen sooner or later . Been There, Done That.
Good Luck!
Reloader
Posts: 4146 | Location: North Louisiana | Registered: 18 February 2004
Quote: I think your rational is really logical. Some guys treat rifles like a bag of golf clubs -- there's a perfect caliber for every little ol' hunting chore. Mostly this sort of thing is an utter waste of time, energy, and resources. One good, all-around rifle can take in a lot of hunting, from deer to moose..........
AD
Of course it can but it's more fun to plan out the perfect rifle for the chore. I am sure many here have a wide range of rifles to use and that's a big part of the enjoyment for me at least.
For instance a 338 WM in the woods for whitetails is not going to be optimum. In a forest, easy shots aside, things can happen fast. A lighter weight rifle will be quicker to arms and less tiring to carry. If a second shot is needed the recoil of a 338 WM is going to close your eyes a little longer and sometimes the first shot misses as it hits a branch. I have lots of guns and some are heavy magnums. I don't carry them in the forest for whitetails except for fun. I like to try them all but when time is running out a heavy long barreled magnum is a slight disadvantage.
The point that a jack of all trades is versitle is true but then it becomes the master of none.
Which of your rifles would you pick here? These are the rules. It's opening day and you have deceided to watch the field for a couple of hours. The reasons for this are that the view is great and there will be deer and all the other game here running all over the place as dawn breaks. The game is whitetails and you have a buck and doe tag. There will be plenty of days for woods hunting later as that's where they will be hiding then.
The picture your looking at is about 800 yds to the far edge. You can see on average 600 yds for 180 degrees. You have selected the spot to the left near the snow as there is a run from right to left between the unpicked stands of dry corn. There are lots of deer here but the ranges are long. You can laser all you want but it's hard to remember every spot.
So one can carry his 338 WM here and I was thinking of using one of my 300 magnums as they have excellent long range power but after thinking about it I selected a 264 WM in an old M70 Westerner.
my grandfather- Henry Krohn
