Went to the Shot Show and talked to some people about Winchester closing. The thing I drew out of the discusions was that as you all know that the quality of the Winchester rifles has fallen off and the reason for the plant closing was to get the union out. Some people seem to think that after the plant closes and the people are gone then it will reopen and have non-union labor to assemble the guns. Would this be the real reason Winchester is closing? I hate to think this is more fact than fiction. What's up? Anybody heard anything like this?

I have also read about the union influence regarding winchester's problems, but no "hard" facts up to this point. I have no doubt the m70 will return. I expect the dust will settle in a couple years, prices will return to a competetive level, and life will go on. In the meantime, there are plenty of other gun manufacturers out there to fill the void for hunters. just my .02

They will have to be careful about closing then reopening with non-union workers. The laws on strike-breaking and union busting might be a problem for them.

What does union have to do with quality control?

Also I must be lucky because the winchester's I've handled in the past few years and the one I own just doesnt have these problems that everyone talks about.

The Union has pro's and con's for it's existance. Workers need a way to ensure fair treatment, but then a company shouldn't have to pay for substandard performance either.

My industry is mixed. The non-Union plants pay high wages, have good, bennies but the ability to let you go at the drop of a hat basically. If you perform poorly you won't last.

Quality comes from pride in workmanship. Thats the bottom line. We could literaly write a book on how to instil this sense of pride.

It is true that Union wages and benefits are quite expensive but I don't think it is the only reason a company has problems. It usually starts with poor leadership. Sometimes it's easier to start a new company than muster up what it will take to improve from within. Kimber started out down right impressive, then fell. Now they are once again producing a product that is worthy of owning IMO. The price tag is higher but so is quality. Nate

Jarrod, the unions in any unionized industry have everything to do with quality. Once workers are comfortable and believe that their jobs are perfectly secure, the GENERAL next step is complacancy. It takes a very good management structure to keep it from happening. Rather than "I will build the best product possible", it becomes, "I will put in my 9 hours and go home". For management of a unionized plant to ward off the effect, the management team must do things they don't like to do, like layoffs, but more importantly, communication. Management hates to communicate worse than it likes to lay off, IMHO. I have been on both sides of union negotiations and when one side immediately decides the other is just trying to steal from them, it is over.

Jarrod- What Larry said.

quote:

Originally posted by Jarrod:
What does union have to do with quality control?

Also I must be lucky because the winchester's I've handled in the past few years and the one I own just doesnt have these problems that everyone talks about.

Wow, let's see, GM & Ford going broke, most states going broke due to union extortion of benefits. When ever you pay everyone the same for there work, quality control suffers. The DMV, the post office, I could go on but it's almost lunch.

OK, before we get too far alon this path of union bashing, consider; A skilled machinest is able to produce X number of parts per unit of time. Management finds that he can produce X + 10% of the same part of adequate quality in the same ammount of time and go that route and give themselvs healthy raises. Then they figure that if they up his rate of production to X + 15% per time unit the parts he produces will be mostly OK so they do, and give themselves an obscene raise. The machinest ceases to give a fuck about anything other than his paycheck since that's the only thing of value his job offers.
Bob

quote:

Originally posted by dustoffer:
They will have to be careful about closing then reopening with non-union workers. The laws on strike-breaking and union busting might be a problem for them.

If true, it will definitely be a problem for them as far as I'm concerned. I took my Model 70 .416 to Africa and it evokes images of Zimbabwe for me every time I pick it up or shoot it but I will sell it in a heartbeat and never buy another Winchester if the company is closing and re-opening for such underhanded purposes. I don't give a shit about this "They're an American icon" bullshit...is it the "American way" to weasel out of contracts this way?. As an aside, union labor is statistically more productive than non-union labor.

Best,

John

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
I could go on but it's almost lunch.

Just realize who fought to get that lunch break for you!

Best,

John

J the Greek,
I respectfully disagree. Union's have broken the US steel industry, the auto industry, textiles, hockey and the airlines. Labor prices are too high when unions show up.

To have a free enterprise system, the owners need control over who they hire and what the wage scale is - seniority does not product better products nor do the other benefits unions extract from companies. Safety is not improved nor is productivity.

I was forced to join a union many years ago to get the job I wanted. When I saw the abuses and the inability to fire worthless workers, I left that business and went into a non-union industry.

I applaud Winchester for their action and will continue to use thier products.

quote:

As an aside, union labor is statistically more productive than non-union labor.

I was wondering when our resident socialist was going to pipe up with. Fact is, there was a place for unions, about one hundred and fifty years ago. I have to deal with unions in the NAvy all the time, the Federal Employees union. They are so ensconced in the system the only way to get rid of them for sub par performance is to promote them to get them out of your office. Their motto is "how we can work less and get paid more." Unions are in the process of destroying GM which has a fifteen BILLION dollar nut to crack every year in Union extortion in the way of medical and pensions. Explain to me how the ENTRY level pay for a janitor at GM is 40k/ year? If U.S. Repeating Arms is indeed doing that. GOOD ON THEM. jorge

I agree with jorge 100 percent! America is not free with unions.America is held hostage by criminals at the work place.You see folks freedom goes like this,if you don't like and accept what I am offering you,you are free to look elsewhere.Any law that dictates to me what I MUST offer you is unamerican.Please let America remain free and STOP this union nonsense NOW!

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
America is not free with unions...

Correction....WORKING America is not "free" without them. The entire notion of "American freedom" rings hollow when bargaining power in the workplace is highly asymmetric and, absent unions, today's workers would simply be "free" to work for some shit wage under shit conditions due to this asymmetry. Unions simply level the playing field and yield the equality and freedom that Americans value so much. Unfortunately, many of you either lack the courage of your convictions or have some sadistic notions of "equality" and "liberty" founded on antiquated classical liberal ideological bias. Your ideal world would simply transform what you perceive as "union extortion" into "corporate extortion".

Best,

John

P.S. The U.S. auto industry is ruining itself. Just wait 'til China enters that market in a few years. It'll be all over...but we'll be buying $6000 cars!

And WHY will we be buying 6K cars? becasue the Chinese (admitedly the other end of the spectrum) don't have to pay some dolt 40 bucks/hour to tighten bolts in an assembly line. Here's something for you: Ever wonder why unions vote predominatly democratic? Same reason the people who don't pay taxes do: they want a free lunch at the expense of those of us who work and pay them.
Do some research and actually find out how ridiculously high wages were at USRAC and then wonder why they went under. jorge

JTG:

You assume that the vast majority of workers are brainless idtiot who don't have a brain to think for themselves.

I will never hire union labor in my business. I started the company, and I make the rules. If you don't like it, start your own company.

I personally don't think union labor is all bad - I do think the Fed gov't is over the top. The problem with union labor and many white collar jobs is that people assume the job will be around forever. Well, that isn't the case anymore. Go ahead and negotiate, but if your negotiation eliminates your job, be ready to look for another one.

That said, I will say many senior executives in publicly traded are overpaid. Many have demonstated extremely poor performance and yet they make millions.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
JTG:

You assume that the vast majority of workers are brainless idtiot

It's not about brains....it's about power in the bargaining process. Of course, you knew that and it is why you don't like unions as a business owner.

Best,

John

JTG:

You wouldn't like my operational model anyway - I hire code writers in South America and pay them 5-7 dollars/hour. They do great work. And they get bonuses often to share in the profit. One even owns a part of my company. Why? Because I don't want him to quit.

But the last guy I hired in the US makes a 6 fig salary, something I couldn't have done if I didn't offshore (not outsource, since they work for me) software development.

Why should anyone be able to hold me hostage after I give them a job? The whole concept is lunacy. If you don't like what you are doing, QUIT and find something else. Or is the "common worker" too dumb to start his/her own company? You can't have it both ways, John. Either you respect their work and treat everyone as if they could start their own company (because they can) or you consider them mentally inferior and treat them as if they could never do anything else (sounds like big business and big labor, huh?). When is the last time a union leader encouraged a member to start their own business?

AMEN Another...

quote:

it's about power in the bargaining process

Yeah, and when that power is lopsided and abused (by whomever, I understand it is a two edged sword) as in the UAW, AFL/CIO, etc. it is a VERY BAD thing.

Defending labor unions without recognizing their limitations and abuses betrays a severe slant, or complete ignorance. Stay on that road and we will be like some European nations, where they stop the trains for 4 hours just to show the power of organized labor. Is that the country we want to live in?

Unions have basically outlived their usefulness. There is a myriad of governmental regulation (not to mention the litigation threat...every accident seems to result in a lawsuit or 10) that prevents/outlaws 99% of the issues that usions were created to address. They are generally now just existing to continue to exist.

I've seen both sides, and never equal worth for the $$$ that union dues pay, and never seen the 'statistically better labor' end either. That quote smells...

Maybe Toyota should make guns. They certainly can make cars without the benefit of unions, have management that run the company correctly !!!

mete,
That's the best and most constructive idea I've heard in a long time. Maybe they could even make them over here....
As to the union issue, there needs to be some kind of an effective check on the abuses of big businesses, just as there needs to be an equally effective check on the abuses of organized labor. The problem is that we have neither and end up with the likes of both the UAW and WalMart.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Versifier:
mete,
there needs to be some kind of an effective check on the abuses of big businesses, just as there needs to be an equally effective check on the abuses of organized labor. There are plenty of mechanisms in place to deal with businesses, it's called the goverment, which BTW, the Bush Administration has put more corrupt bsiness people behind bars than any other in recent history. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
JTG:

You wouldn't like my operational model anyway - I hire code writers in South America and pay them 5-7 dollars/hour. They do great work. And they get bonuses often to share in the profit. One even owns a part of my company. Why? Because I don't want him to quit.

But the last guy I hired in the US makes a 6 fig salary, something I couldn't have done if I didn't offshore (not outsource, since they work for me) software development.

Why should anyone be able to hold me hostage after I give them a job? The whole concept is lunacy. If you don't like what you are doing, QUIT and find something else. Or is the "common worker" too dumb to start his/her own company? You can't have it both ways, John. Either you respect their work and treat everyone as if they could start their own company (because they can) or you consider them mentally inferior and treat them as if they could never do anything else (sounds like big business and big labor, huh?). When is the last time a union leader encouraged a member to start their own business?

Please explain to me how anyone out there can just start their own business?

A lot of people cant even afford food etc. much less start a business.

Why is it that so many people especially a few on here want to go around saying people are overpaid. Then a lot of the same ones that are saying they are over paid probably make several times more then the ones that they are saying are over paid.
Doesnt make any sense to me.

quote:

Please explain to me how anyone out there can just start their own business?

A lot of people cant even afford food etc. much less start a business.

1. Sacrifice early in life. Don't move to Montana in your 20s just because the hunting is good.
2. Don't spend that extra 30K on an African buffalo hunt - go on a plains game hunt and save the difference.
3. Everyone has good ideas. What they lack is confidence. Find a mentor.
3. Take a chance. If you fail, you can always go out and get a job.

I am 23 years old and have started 2 of my own businesses. One was selling Fly Fishing accesories over the internet. The start up costs were nil, and with a little thing called a "Small Business Loan" I was able to start up the business. It was fun selling stuff through college and it always paid for the extra stuff that came up. With that I did some consulting on web page design for Outfitting companies, that was also fun.
The second business is one that I am starting now, I have a new concept for accesories for boats that I getting off the ground. We shall see how that goes, but its a lot of fun.

Answering AZ questions.
1. I went to college in Montana, I didn't move there.
2. A Plains Game safari did save me money.
3. I had the confidence to make the business succeed, and with some help from a few business professors it got off the ground.
4. I closed the first business, more because it took time to do, and I wanted to take a year off to hunt and fish. The second business hasn't got off the ground yet, but I have some jobs that I can start if it does fail. Maybe I am just willing to try things out.

Pegleg:

Unions don't seem to be to blame for the end of a lot of American gun companies before Winchester. Often, an American company is ripe for a takeover by investors who could care less about guns. (Smith & Wesson and its English investors is one example) Sometimes companies are taken over just to sell off their assets. In the case of Winchester, the name simply was so much a part of the American heritage that few of us older types thought that its being taken over by a corporate entity called " US Repeating Arms" meant that "Winchester" had survived. We thought Winchester died then. This latest news is only finally certifying that Winchester is dead. I'm 75 and a lifelong hunter and shooter. I mourn its passing more than many who were not even born when I was shooting original Winchesters that today are "reproductions". I hate to say this but we simply have to move on. Good companies will come along (and already have) No point in weeping over a corpse dead many years. (That is NOT meant to inflame anybody. I only mean that Winchester should be remembered fondly -but attempts to restore it to life are useless)

John

Unions are killing this country, pure and simple, and there is no way that unions are more productive and you know this.

For people who dont work in unions to be called "scabs" and by placing large inflatable rats on certain job sites will make any clear thinking person realize who doing the extortion.

The N.Y.C. transit strike is a great recent example. Those guys make great money, have awesome benefits but was that enough? NO, they had to fuck people right before christmas and cost the city millions of dollars, unions are great,right, just wait until all production is in other countries, then what will your unions do for you?

P.S. i wouldnt buy an American car if my life depended on it, plus the same bullshit that detroit pulled in the late 70's and early 80's is happening in all American company's, (planned obsolescence) and totally crappy production, i see it every day.

I get a kick out of some people.
An example of what I am talking about. Someone talks about how Jim Bob is making good money blah blah blah. So say Jim Bob is making 35K year.
Then the one that says Jim Bob is making good money is making 150k or 200k year. I find this hilarious.

Howdy Ya'll
I live and work in one of the fastest growing towns in British Columbia and my job is in the construction industry. I am a 2nd year Carpentry apprentice, and I get paid $19 per hour. I AM NOT UNIONIZED!!!!! I concure with a number of others on this thread that unions were valuable when people were being ripped off by big employers, but what unions do now is rip off big employers. I am firmly conviced that if a person works hard, he should get paid for it, and that if he is a slacker, he should be encouraged to find another job that will be more in tune with his production speed. I have a winchester M70, and am in the process of buying another. I hope that they will be able to produce a better product if they de-unionize.
Regards to all,
Graham

For once I agree completely with the poor shot and bordering on un-ethical Big Game Hunter Jorge!
Unions, in my opinion are ruining Winchester and have ruined many other American industries!
Unions are mostly corrupt, top heavy, wasteful, evil entities that now thrive on waste and miss-spending money!
Unions are useless in todays America!
I was a Union member at EVERY place I worked as an adult! These included the Boilermakers Union and the Machinists Union!
I also belonged to a Police Guild for 29 years (by law the police were not allowed to "Unionize"), the Guild worked the same (and failed the same!) as other major unions in the USA except the Police Guild could not legally strike.
There is much inside talk that indeed the poor relations with the Olin family and the uppity union involved, actually caused some of the union workers to "sabotage" the quality of Winchesters products! Not just the unions exhorbitant demands but the resulting low quality work ethic and sensationally iffy quality of Winchester products then resulted!
I wish I knew for certain the real truth in this union vs. Winchester problem!
The death of Winchester is a shame no matter who all caused it and what all the reasons are! I feel the unions did have a large hand in the demise of Winchester!
Shame that!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
PS: Whats with the Bush bashing?
I just heard that last year the Bush led economy created more jobs in the USA than Japan and all of the European Union COMBINED!
How about the record housing starts beating a 33 year record last month?
How about inflation under control?
How about the misery index under Bush compared to the last 6 presidencies?
Sheesh - where am I, Russia?

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
For once I agree completely with the poor shot and bordering on un-ethical Big Game Hunter Jorge!

VarmintGuy:

What is the purpose of this comment? Jorge a poor shot? Unethical?

I would bet a lot of quid that Jorge has garnered more respect as person than you. You may not agree with his politics. You might even be a better shot than him. I am sure you have shot more coyotes than him. But we (the shooters and hunters here) collectively owe him a lot more than we do you, so think about that the next time you bash someone serving our country.

quote:

Originally posted by fgulla:

Unions are killing this country, pure and simple.

A union hater from NEW JERSEY?!?! FUGGEDABOUTIT !!!

Best,

John

JTG, I AM THE ONE who fights for what I get. In the engineering field there are no Unions, maybe over at Boeing but I doubt it. At a young 19 (50 now)I could see how bad Unions are for anyone w/ some drive & ambition. Unions, like socailism, kill drive & ambition. Everyone gets paid the same no matter what your work output. That goes beyond sociallism it's actually communism!
We see across the nation what unions are doing to the loacal & Federal govt. Soon all of those greedy Union types will be lucky to have jobs . If Winchester can pull this off, I would never buy any other rifle. The quality of their product will at least double.

quote:

Originally posted by Jarrod:
I get a kick out of some people.
An example of what I am talking about. Someone talks about how Jim Bob is making good money blah blah blah. So say Jim Bob is making 35K year.
Then the one that says Jim Bob is making good money is making 150k or 200k year. I find this hilarious.

Depends on where you live j. In Kentucky $35K is a decent income. In Kalif. $35 is almost poverty level. That's why a union grocery clerk here makes $18/hr plus killer benefits to basically scan bananas, THAT is overpaid. In Kentucky, a licensed engineer probably makes that kind of money.
Unions do have a place for people that don't have a skill worth somehting they can negotiate with. If anyone can do your job, grocery clerk, maid, etc. then you have no power or leverage.
BTW, anyone w/ drive, an idea & some skill can start a business. I did exactly that 8 years ago. Ran my own consulting bus. for three years. Started w/ my final check from the job I had. I work for someone now because taxes were killing me & I had no time off, but taxes are another thread for another time.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BigNate:

My industry is mixed. The non-Union plants pay high wages, have good, bennies but the ability to let you go at the drop of a hat basically. If you perform poorly you won't last.

So is it my understanding that Unions allow you to underperform and maintain employment? Here is what is wrong with America in my opinion. In most bigger companies (200+ employees) managers or leaders do not have the balls to cut the fat. If you have 75% of your workers that are performing at 100%. And the other 25% that are performing at 50%. You need to cut out the underperformers and raise the level of the bar. Now there is a lower echelon in that 75% that have to strive to do better to keep up with the top performers. In my industry (Telecom Service Provider) performance is an absolute. If you cannot perform, I will find someone to replace you after proper mentoring and counseling has been given to the employee. I will not reward you for under performance. ie..Raises, bonuses etc...Do your job and do it to the extent of your God given talents or go find a Union to work for and hide behind until you can collect your pension.

AZ: Thank you for watching my "six". VG is one of the many village idiots, products of the trials and tribulations of the inbred that get through life it seems by the grace of the almighty.

He is testament that it doesn't take a whole lot of brain matter north of the Medulla Oblongata to go atumble through life. His "issue" with me is he considers me unethical because of my preference for shoulder shots that in my experience put down animals with greater efficacy than lung shots.

Further, he takes umbrage that I discount the fact that shoulder shots waste more edible meat, which he raises to the status of some kind of "Communion." Finally, his use of the exclamation point after every sentence has got to be one of the most pedantic bad habits I've encountered on these forums. The fact he agrees with me on anything I find most distressing. jorge

let's say I'm president/CEO of a stock held bank...making roughly 2 Million/yr. My CFO makes 1.5 million/yr . My 4 Sr. VPs each make $250k/yr and their 8 Asst. Vps each make $115k/yr .... Each takes home a hefty % of that as a yearly bonus too....all fair and reasonable amounts here in the state of Pa.
Is it really fair that a non union teller with a BS in accounting makes $8.75/hr and minimal benifits? Bearing in mind this is the person most customers associate "bank personel" with? A union wage for this teller would be more along the lines of $16.50/hr with hospitalization and retirement possibly stock options too .
I own my own business paying my employees well. But I would prefer they went unionized as I've been on both sides of the table . Most any company runs smoother with a union in place.

Ps most companies do not fail due to high union wages and benifits. But rather fail because they did not reinvest in modern equipment instead trying to milk every last penny out of their vintage gear.