quote:

Most any company runs smoother with a union in place.

That is the exact oppossite of reality. You must also beleive that it's the business owner to supply Medical insurance also? Regarding your hypothetical "teller" I know of no teller in my experience that has a Bachelor's degree in accounting. If they do, they are not very bright as any person with those credentials can get a job paying much more than that. I thought you lived in California? jorge

you'd do better to just fly your Cessnas. As it is apparent you couldn't function in the real world
Calif.? that would be the day.
BTW I know men driving trucks with MBAs does that make them dumb as you suggest?

cats, how can you say you own a bus. & WANT them to unionize? I would be the first to agree that most CEOs & CFOs & middle managers make way too much money for what they provide. Good employees are the backbone of any company. The problem is unions support ALL employees, good & bad. So why should I work harder than the guy in the cubicle next to me if we have the same pay grade? Possibly for a promotion to management, oh yeah the non union job. I have also been on both side of the fence & can tell you that unions have never been a good thing for a productive business or company, never. Ford, GM Boeing, come on. They are all in the forefront of technology & service but are failing Because of what they pay their underworked employees in wages & specifically benefits. In Kalif. we are now paying state unionized employees 90% of their pay + benefits to retire @ age 50 & not work? How is that sustainable? It's not & the same goes for companies.
You must be a democrat, no other business owner I know thinks his business should unionize. Pay & treat your employees well & your business will profit w/o the pesky, extorionistic unions.

Bethlehem Steel/US Steel,Mack trucks,etc. had no problem with their unionized employees. Their companies failed or are failing because they did not modernize but chose to invest their money abroad or into poor investments rather than their own companies.
All the while China,Japan,etc. built the most modern rolling plants in the world an captured the market.
My brother worked for Mack Trucks in the LV of Pa. He retired from there. Started there in 1955 and retired in 1997...the entire time he operated the exact same machine used to drill cross members...very progressive thinking, HUH?

Well this thread was much different tban what I anticipated given the heading...

Many companies have gone into the scrap heap over time due to poor management, investment decision, technology changes, just plain blunders, etc as they should...but I would not go so far as blaming Unions for all the problems with American manufacturing, they may well be a part of the problem....but my view it is the "Overhead" costs and funny money that has become the biggest burden to manufacturing here. In the US we have an expectation of things like a reasonable standard of living (modern standard not 1800's standard) which includes a home, health care, retirement, etc...and I forgot to include our "right" to sue each other...litigation is the US is out of hand...

Or you could just blame the Unions and say well it is too much for those folks/workers/Unions to have health care, pensions, and make a wage that is reasonable, etc... should they be paid $3.50/hour like a Chinese auto worker (if the Chinese auto worker gets paid at all), no health care, or overhead to worry with, no worry about environmental or safety standards...just like it was in the U.S. in the late 1800's or early 1900's....

It will be interesting to see what happens over the next 5 to 20 years, as manufacturing flees the US (unless something is done about it, that will happen) and we bank on technology as thats where all the "new opportunites will be"...one thing most politicians will never understand is that many new technologies come out of the manufacturing/production of goods...lose the manufacturing you eventually lose much of future technology...well we will see....

The free trade mantra needs to be replaced with fair trade...level the playing field totally...you want to sell in this market then everyone plays at the same level...not in an effort to continually drive society to the bottom...

I say do away with individual and corporate taxes and put in place a tax on all goods and services sold or mported into the US..exempt the poor and needed...now Walmart may not go for that but I sure would....possibly the US could start to reduce the Budget Deficit and National Debt...instead of us watching them grow as they have over the last six years...well beyond any historic measure! I will stop here...

Cats: Since you put it that way and attack me personally, I'll respond in kind. I think you are a big and no more a "business owner" than I'm the frigging Pope.
From the unfortunate day you first started posting here, you've gone from being a guide in Alaska to owning your own company, to god knows what other bullshit.
Not ONCE have you presented any evidence of who or what you portend to be. Even one lousy photohraph. Further, your absurd by-line at the bottom of your pedantic posts is indicative of an inmature, bitter little wimp, who lacks the self confidence for productive and adult discussion and disagreement.

The US Steel industry went tits up largely beacause of the over 275 strikes in an 8 year period in the late fifties thus they were uable to modernize. Sure, management made some bad decisions also, same goes fro GM, Ford, etc, but you can't ignore the fact that GM for example has a fifteen BILLION health care and benefit nut to crack before even looking at the profit side of the ledger. The Unions did't "allow" it becasue it would cost jobs. The Steel Workers Union went on RECORD stating they would prefer the industry go broke than concede even an inch to management, so please spare us your BS.

I'll tell you what, go ahead and continue giving your opinions based on whatever crap you come up after a google search, but to me and many others here, we are not buying your load of excrement. jorge

quote:

I own my own business paying my employees well. But I would prefer they went unionized as I've been on both sides of the table . Most any company runs smoother with a union in place.

Cats:

You seriously risk being thought of as a troll with that comment...I know of no business that WANTS their workforce to unionize. Many deal with unions very well, but I know of no one who WANTS a union. For what?

quote:

Bethlehem Steel/US Steel,Mack trucks,etc. had no problem with their unionized employees.

BS!

I worked for a USX (US Steel) operation for 3+ years. They are a classic example of the sterotype usion being bashed here! When the union can mandate that no one other than a licensced electrician can change a light bulb, and you can't work in an area with 'inadequate lighting' is allowed to mean ANY light bulb burned out, your high dollar industrial electrician spends his/her time changing light bulbs, not wiring 200Hp pump motors and such.

That's efficiency for ya! Go unions!

I repeat my earlier (uncontested thus far) assertation that unions do nothing now but screw their members out of $$$ to keep existing. Their 'job' has long since been taken over by OSHA/MSHA and other various regulatory agencies. The sad part is that they continue in many cases to screw the average worker out of a percentage of their paycheck for VERY little gained (and frequently much lost) in return.

This thread did kind of go off kilter but since we are here . . .

My occupation kind of sandwiches me between labor and management - kind of like that white crap in an Oreo cookie - and I can also say that some levels of upper management do an organization little favor. Not so much coruption but ineptitude and all out incompetance. I guess there are usually two sides to the coin when a company fails.

That said I'd much rather manage a non-union shop.

hey Cessna boy what burns your ass about me is I won't post hero pics of the type you so proudly display. To my way of thinking all that tries to do is make up for someother short commings of the poster.
I also notice about another half dozen posters to this site you do your best to try an intimidate with your name calling,etc....without luck I may add.
Next time try another pic of that same old 4 eyed guy with that same mediocore buff. Even better next time you hit the deck make it with a SPLAT!

Well Cats, I may not agree with Varmint Guy's characterization of Jorge, but I do believe the guy has killed stuff - I am sure he has killed more coyotes than you or me and I am sure I could learn a thing or two from VG.

You, on the other hand...

So tell me, what business are you in that makes you wish your employees would form or join a union?

cats you crack me up.

No cats what burns me up about you is that you are a liar and a bullshit artist. You and every other troll that pollutes here have one thing in common, aside from being lying obnoxious jerks is that you pull every excuse in the book when somebody calls you on something. My buff may be mediocre but let's see yours. Oh wait is it in the same place as that other troll's 46 incher? Why don't you at least answer AZ's question about your business? And if anybody gets intimidated by me or anybody else on these forums well I feel sorry for them. I'll say it again just for the record: you are a phony and a liar. Prove me otherwise. BTW, don't know about the 4 eyed "old guy" but here you go just for you sweetheart jorge:

I happen to agree with VG on this one. Those horns make thin soup. I have way too much respect for an animal to blow out both shoulders just for the pleasure to watch it "drop in its tracks", he would die quicker with a clean vital shot. What a waste of good meat.

But lets get back on track. Jorge had some valid points on labor unions, even for a navy guy. I get a kick out of the union guys, "why does management make 6 or 7 figures and the slobs on the deckplates only makes 6 bucks an hour"? "Why does the company net a few million and they cant pay for more benifits"? "If it werent for unions, we'd all be slaves to 'the man'". The fact is, the CEO has to make the company money or he gets FIRED. If he dosent do his job, labor is out on the street. The market determines what wages should be. I've seen many unskilled or semi-skilled union workers that made a damn good living pushing a pallet jack, until the plant closed down. If that worker was worth so much, why cant he find another company to pay a livable wage for the same work. Unions institutionalize many of their workers to a point that they have no good reason to learn a skill or trade.

Unions go on srike and become militant. The TAKE their members money and use it personally and politically. Furthermore, I hear the union workers bitching about how management makes too much money and the company is so profitable and they should get a cut, out of fairness. I have yet to hear the union workers bitch about the union bosses and the money they make. The union boss dosent even run the company, he just takes his share of the wages and fills the members full of BS, driving a wedge between labor and management.

So Winchester closed, so what. I see no tradgady in losing JB's M-94 or their version of a 98 mauser.

In my oppinion anything that prevents control over ones business is detrimental to it.That is one thing that I learned running a business for 13 yrs now.CONTROL.Everything means nothing as long as you don't have control,100% control.Unions,multiple parntners are two things that will finish you up real quick.These are two deadly viruses.You can handle them for a while,but you will never grow to your potential.In the end they will tire you down until it's over.Don't want to play the smart ass here,but anyone who has strarted and run a decent business knows what I am talking about.

quote:

companies failed or are failing because they did not modernize but chose to invest their money abroad or into poor investments rather than their own companies.

All the while China,Japan,etc. built the most modern rolling plants in the world an captured the market.

DING DING DING! We have a WINNER!

I tell you what you may say oh well their unskilled and their getting paid too much money, well that's BS.
But you know what when people go on strike for legitimate reasons and these big companies cant even function for a while you can find out real quick how much some of these unskilled workers as they are called are really worth.
Most of them more than they are damn paid.

You treat people like shit it comes back eventually to bite you in the ass and rightfully it should.
Just remember The Golden Rule.

Why a company failed or what it should do to succeed is not really hard to figure out.The hard part is getting in the clear so that you can do what is necessary.

Jarrod, a little history lesson for you. About two years ago we had a gorcery workers strike here in Kalif. These banana scanners make $18/hr., double time on Sun. & holidays, triple time on Sun. holidays, full medical coverage & a pention. Their union thought it was unfair that the companies wanted to have them chip in & pay a bit of their medical expenses, in my office it's called a co-pay.
So they all went on strike. The big bad grocery chains went out & hired anyone off the street, paid them $12/hr & no benefits. In one week all of the markets were running just like normal. After the workers lost months of pay, they decided having a job wasn't so bad after all & the best they could do with there banana scanning skills was $7/hr & no benefits @ a 7/11. So they were actually worth less than they thought & all the union has done for them is guarantee they never reach a pay level that allows them to have the things they ultimately need because the union dictates what they will make until the unions push the business into bankruptcy or force companies into technology that makes their job unnecessary.
Union workers are like children that never grow up, someone makes their decisions for them most of their lives, & they have no idea how good they have it until it's all gone. Then they cry out, "it' not fair". Well, life isn't fair. Grow up, get a skill or a trade that others need & are willing to pay for. It's not about hard work, I've done hard work for very little money in my youth. It's about being necessary & negotiating your best deal in life. No one makes you take the job you have or to work for wages / benefits you don't like. That's free enterprise. I wouldn't have it any other way & I have worked on both sides of the issue. Sure, one day China will probably be the next great economic power but unions won't save jobs, they ultimately cost them, along with greedy corporate ripoffs like Enron & the current oil company scammers. Workers can make a difference not unions.
Oh & BTW, I've met very few people that think they are paid enough for what they do from $20K/yr to $1M/yr. We all think we are worth more than we probably are.

A union member is like a thief,and like a thief he believes what he is doing is justifiable.You find them mostly in countries,states,provinces where everyone is a thief.

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
Jarrod, a little history lesson for you. About two years ago we had a gorcery workers strike here in Kalif. These banana scanners make $18/hr., double time on Sun. & holidays, triple time on Sun. holidays, full medical coverage & a pention. Their union thought it was unfair that the companies wanted to have them chip in & pay a bit of their medical expenses, in my office it's called a co-pay.
So they all went on strike. The big bad grocery chains went out & hired anyone off the street, paid them $12/hr & no benefits. In one week all of the markets were running just like normal. After the workers lost months of pay, they decided having a job wasn't so bad after all & the best they could do with there banana scanning skills was $7/hr & no benefits @ a 7/11. So they were actually worth less than they thought & all the union has done for them is guarantee they never reach a pay level that allows them to have the things they ultimately need because the union dictates what they will make until the unions push the business into bankruptcy or force companies into technology that makes their job unnecessary.
Union workers are like children that never grow up, someone makes their decisions for them most of their lives, & they have no idea how good they have it until it's all gone. Then they cry out, "it' not fair". Well, life isn't fair. Grow up, get a skill or a trade that others need & are willing to pay for. It's not about hard work, I've done hard work for very little money in my youth. It's about being necessary & negotiating your best deal in life. No one makes you take the job you have or to work for wages / benefits you don't like. That's free enterprise. I wouldn't have it any other way & I have worked on both sides of the issue. Sure, one day China will probably be the next great economic power but unions won't save jobs, they ultimately cost them, along with greedy corporate ripoffs like Enron & the current oil company scammers. Workers can make a difference not unions.
Oh & BTW, I've met very few people that think they are paid enough for what they do from $20K/yr to $1M/yr. We all think we are worth more than we probably are.

I dont disagree that $18/hr is good pay for scanning groceries, $7hr is not good pay for anything. Just because a person is working for $7/hr doesnt mean that are not worth more than that.

Oh yeah thanks for the unneeded history lesson I got an A in that class.

quote:

companies failed or are failing because they did not modernize but chose to invest their money abroad or into poor investments rather than their own companies.

Why do you suppose companies went overseas and failed to reinvest? High labor costs, high capital gains taxes and high litigation. All three issues supported by the anti-american left and, you guessed it UNIONS! That shoulder shot issue, well, we'll have to agree to disagree or just start another thread. jorge

jarrod. low skill = low pay. It just isn't enough anymore to work hard. Learn this & better yourself.
BTW jurge, I like the low shoulder shot, kills em dead for me w/ little to no tracking.

As mentioned, there are many factors that can determine success or failure in business and gov't for that matter.

Traditional grocery stores have come under pressure from "Super Walmart" and the like...In my state we have a "medical programs" in place to cover those who can not afford insurance from traditional providers (and yes it is frought with problems) by far the largest "group" of these working folks are WALMART employees...what a bunch of BS that is...Walmart pushes cost back to anyone they can stuff it too...thats been their history for good or bad...

There has been and continues to be a chase around the world to find the cheapest (while mantaining a level of productivity) labor and overhead costs, etc...it may be $20+/- jobs today, in the future it will be professions and higher paying jobs....

You can point to this or that, but you should also include the other overhead cost..like local, state, and federal gov't costs...they are significant...Our gov't spending is totally out of control..who pays for it...for the most part US Corporation and individuals...importers to the US have a competitive advantage because of this...

Sad to say but the Republicans and Democrats do nothing to cut the size of the Federal Gov't ...heck we all remember the Republican's mantra ...small gov't..force it by cutting taxes..well they cut taxes over the last six years..but gov't has grown has grown from $1.7 trillion to almost 3trillion, in terms of the budget...National Debt has grown by $3trillion (from $5trillion to $8.2trillion) not all the administrations fault..Congress funds this folley!

but Bush has no vetoed one damn spending bill, if fact he is the biggest spender in US history...

At least his father had the sense to understand there is a balance between revenue and expenses..something this administration knows nothing about...

I know liberal...I am a fiscally conservative moderate...I do believe in helping people in need but to a point...I have never voted for a Democrat...but there needs to be a change ...as the Republicans have morphed into some sort of social conservative party without regard for taxpayer money....

Unions may be part of the problem but they lost power way back when...we have much bigger problems now.......and Federal Gov't spending and over reaching is at the top of my list!

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
jarrod. low skill = low pay. It just isn't enough anymore to work hard. Learn this & better yourself.
BTW jurge, I like the low shoulder shot, kills em dead for me w/ little to no tracking.

I agree that low skill should be lower paid. We agree on that.
But what I disagree with is shit pay. Jobs that pay 5 or 6 dollars an hour is complete and utter bullshit. I mean you can clean people's houses and make 3-5 times that or wash cars or whatever.

But I do agree with you and Jorge, shoulder shot if you know where to put it.

jjs, agreed I believe in helping people in need but only to a point.
What I disagree with however is those who get on welfare and stay there permanently.
One thing I noticed about soem of my Amish friends is that i someone is disabled but not completely.
Say for example they cant walk very much etc.
Most of the time they will find work even for someone like that. Maybe making quilts or something that can be done sitting down.

Lots on people on disability could do jobs that doesnt require physical labor.
I would be willing to bet that their are quite a few who sell on ebay that probably couldnt hold a regular job.
At the nearest taco bell here there is a lady that seems to not be able to get around very well. So she just puts her a chair right in front of the cash register and takes orders her whole shift. I am sure she could draw disability if she wanted too.

Speaking from personal experience, most companies won't touch a potential employee who has a physical disability with the proverbial ten foot pole. Whether they're afraid of their insurance costs rising, questioning the dependability of someone who has a harder time getting around, or what, I don't know. But they always seem to find someone "more qualified" even when it is obvious that it isn't true. Some companies are more than fair about it, of course, but they have been the exceptions rather than the rule. Fair? No, but reality.

Vers, what that's about is getting rid of an employee that isn't working out. If they are disabled they can call discrimination. It's sad but the same applies for women & minorities. Employers are afraid to hire them because if they do have to fire them it's much more difficult. Sadly there are just too many lawyers out there.

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
Vers, what that's about is getting rid of an employee that isn't working out. If they are disabled they can call discrimination. It's sad but the same applies for women & minorities. Employers are afraid to hire them because if they do have to fire them it's much more difficult. Sadly there are just too many lawyers out there.

agreed

Hopefully that might make you look at people who are stuck on welfare in a different light. I'm not talking about the lazy slugs and welfare sluts, but sometimes all hungry men look alike. What you see at first glance may not be what is really in front of you. You are correct, and I know it, but sometime try explaining that bit about the lawyers to a hungry kid - even a six year old knows what bullshit smells like, even if he's too polite to remind you of the truth.

"One thing I noticed about soem of my Amish friends is that i someone is disabled but not completely.
Say for example they cant walk very much etc.
Most of the time they will find work even for someone like that. Maybe making quilts or something that can be done sitting down."
----------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, we need to be more like the amish, a true communistic society. Just like the USSR or NAZI Germany. No unemployment, we all have jobs, the gubment gives us healthcare, housing, utilities, money, yeah what a utopia those people live in.

Hey jarrod, you seem to think it should be illegal or morally wrong to pay shit people shit wages. I think its good to have shit jobs around. It gives people incentive to better themselves. To learn a skill or get an education. This is the land of opportunity and free enterprise. There are enough programs in the USA that just about anybody can get a degree. If you're happy scanning bannanas for 6 bucks an hour, then good for you but if you want to make 75k/yr, you need a new line of work. The MARKET should determine what wages are, not the union or government.

quote:

Originally posted by mousegun:
"One thing I noticed about soem of my Amish friends is that i someone is disabled but not completely.
Say for example they cant walk very much etc.
Most of the time they will find work even for someone like that. Maybe making quilts or something that can be done sitting down."
----------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, we need to be more like the amish, a true communistic society. Just like the USSR or NAZI Germany. No unemployment, we all have jobs, the gubment gives us healthcare, housing, utilities, money, yeah what a utopia those people live in.

Hey jarrod, you seem to think it should be illegal or morally wrong to pay shit people shit wages. I think its good to have shit jobs around. It gives people incentive to better themselves. To learn a skill or get an education. This is the land of opportunity and free enterprise. There are enough programs in the USA that just about anybody can get a degree. If you're happy scanning bannanas for 6 bucks an hour, then good for you but if you want to make 75k/yr, you need a new line of work. The MARKET should determine what wages are, not the union or government.

No Amish do not get healthcare, housing, utilities, or whatever. They pay there own way. They wont even get insurance. They pay their hospital bills in full.
I never once said that I was a grocery scanner.

By the way just because a person holds a low wage job does not make them shit people. That has nothing at all to do with it. A lot of people who have low wage jobs are some of the best people you could ever meet.

So you actually think that just because someone out here works a low wage job that they are a shit person.
With that kind of thinking that would make you sound like a shit person.
So what defines a shit person anyway?

Man I know people who have never set foot in a college, some of them never graduated high school even, and arew not trust fund babies like several people on AR seem to be and make more money than the average person ever dreams of.

Money and material things have nothing to do with how big of a man someone is.

There are rich people who are rats and there are poor people who are rats.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
There are rich people who are rats and there are poor people who are rats.

thanks that is what I wanted to say.

quote:

Yeah, we need to be more like the amish, a true communistic society. Just like the USSR or NAZI Germany.

Now THAT is some classic AR idiocy!

Best,

John

quote:

Originally posted by JohnTheGreek:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
America is not free with unions...

Correction....WORKING America is not "free" without them. The entire notion of "American freedom" rings hollow when bargaining power in the workplace is highly asymmetric and, absent unions, today's workers would simply be "free" to work for some shit wage under shit conditions due to this asymmetry. Unions simply level the playing field and yield the equality and freedom that Americans value so much. Unfortunately, many of you either lack the courage of your convictions or have some sadistic notions of "equality" and "liberty" founded on antiquated classical liberal ideological bias. Your ideal world would simply transform what you perceive as "union extortion" into "corporate extortion".

Best,

damnit JTG!!!!! who in the fuck says that all people are intitled to a job, If you don't like the job, think the pay sucks, the benfits suck, This is america pard go get another fucking job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I heard a caller on the radio call in an tell of people who work for GM that just go sit in some room and read newspapers and magazines and collect a pay check because they are inferior employees and the boss can't fire them because they are unionized. JTG maybe you would be better starting up a new socialist regeime in russia or something. JTG I have met you before you seem like a nice guy, but man your politics need help

Cummins,

Reruns of Art Bell's radio show don't count as a valid source! Seriously, I remember meeting you too and you seem like a nice guy as well....for a union busting fascist!

Best Regards,

John

Hey jay-rod, the amish dont get anything from the US government, but they are in their OWN commune. They are what the hippies in the sixties were trying to be. No rich and no poor.
They all live in harmony and peace within their own little world. (They also refuse to serve in the military).

You're right, just because you have a shit job dosent make you a shit person, but you seem to think every person that pumps gas for a living is supporting a family of six and giving the rest to church. Most of the minimum wage jobs in the US are filled by high school or college kids. Or there for people that are happy working hard for peanuts. In either case it should be an incentive for those people to get an education and better themselves. It worked for me.

I think a person that has skills that are unique or in demand, should make more than a guy that operates a pallet jack. The you seem to think that the guy on the pallet jack should make the same as the guy who runs the company. Again, the market should determine what wages are, not unions.

quote:

Originally posted by mousegun:
Hey jay-rod, the amish dont get anything from the US government, but they are in their OWN commune. They are what the hippies in the sixties were trying to be. No rich and no poor.
They all live in harmony and peace within their own little world. (They also refuse to serve in the military).

You're right, just because you have a shit job dosent make you a shit person, but you seem to think every person that pumps gas for a living is supporting a family of six and giving the rest to church. Most of the minimum wage jobs in the US are filled by high school or college kids. Or there for people that are happy working hard for peanuts. In either case it should be an incentive for those people to get an education and better themselves. It worked for me.

I think a person that has skills that are unique or in demand, should make more than a guy that operates a pallet jack. The you seem to think that the guy on the pallet jack should make the same as the guy who runs the company. Again, the market should determine what wages are, not unions.

No no I never said that I think the guy on the pallet jack should make the same as the guy who runs the company. Far from it. I just believe that people who have jobs where you actually have to work should get an honest day's wages for an honest days work. I also believe that the minimum wage anyone is paid should be enough that that person can get the basic necessities without any assistance. Those that make $5.15 an hour it doesnt cut it.

No the Amish live more like the early Pilgrims who first settled in this country not like hippies. Several of them are good friends of mine. There are some of them very rich and some of them very poor. Some of them run very lucrative businesses, some of them barely scrape by. Several of them are like us English people as they call us and owe the bank.
One thing that is true of all Amish that I have ever met and I have met lots of them from several different states and a few different countries is that unlike the majority of Americans if some are in need they will help them. Rather it be that they need food, or harvesting crops, whatever they help each other out.
When it comes to work they are not afraid of it either. I know several groups of Amish that go around doing construction work etc. etc.
They built my brothers house that he just sold and they are building the one that he is about to move into. They get as much done in a day as regular construction crews get don in a week literally. Cause when they start they fall in a routine, everyone knows what they are doing and they dont sit around half the day doing nothing.

A lot of Americans could learn a lot by hanging around an watching Amish for a while. Most people I know that talk about them have no clue. I do they are my friends, I've took them on trips, stayed in their homes, worked with them etc. etc.

Oh yeah one more thing I want to add here. If the world were more like them the world would be a lot better place. Their would be a heck of a lot less crime that is for sure.

Mouse, in some companies the pallet jack jockey IS A better person than the CEO. Your job, vocation, profession is not a measure of you the person. People that think that are asses, been around them my entire life. Your education also has little to do w/ what kind of person you are & many times how succesful you can become in this counttry. I know a ton of college grads working $10/hr jobs because they had the wrong major. College education DOES NOT=financial success. Like I said, get a skill that makes you marketable. Plumbers. electricians, good stone mason, these are definetly not college taught skills but you can make a fine living doing them. Basically comes down to this, if I can learn to do your job in one day, then so can 100,000 other guys. That makes me unskilled. If you need months or years of training to do a job well, then you are worth something to a smart company head.
jtg, you crack me up. Most socialists here in the states have never seen the effects of socialism on a population. They live in idealistic fog of what they think could be instead of what actulally is. You need to go travel the world a bit & see how the rest of the world lives. Then again, you may be a government employee & are already in the middle of true socialism.
jarrod, what you are asking for is a living wage. Here in Kalif. there are some cities demanding that. So some illegal cleaning the rooms @ the Hyatt has to be paid $10/hr. If you can't afford to live someplace get a better job or move. If $7/hr isn't enough to raise a family, get 2 jobs or don't have a family or get a skill someone will pay you for. None of this is rocket science. I waited until I was 26 & had a house before I had kids. I worked 70-80hrs a week to afford to get that 1st house because my skill set didn't allow me to make enough to buy a house. No one owes you anything. You make your own breaks, unless you're born to money, for the most part you choose the direction of your life. So choose well grasshopper & don't expect the govt. or mommy & daddy to bail you out once you leave the nest.