John,

Great quote. Did you draw anything in UT? I didn't, again.

Washington Hunter hit the nail on the head. If you walk back through the history of CWD in recent years, there is a close correlation to game farming, in the incidence and the spread of the disease.

Who is paying for the damage? U.S taxpayers and the wild herds. The game farm owners are filing claims to the U.S. Agriculture Department to be compensated for their losses so they can raise more diseased animals, and the wild herds are being slaughtered to prevent the spread of the disease, to other wild herds. Talk about convoluted logic! Who benefits from the slaughter of wild herd? The game farmers who started the problem. What's wrong with this picture?

Speaking of CWD...I visited this weekend with my Uncle who owns hunting land in south-central Wisconsin, about 50 miles from the "hot-zone". He tells me some of the local biologists claim a correlation between CWD in WI and feeding of deer. Baiting was not legal when I lived there, up to 1986. Last year up in the boonies in the Chequamegon NF, miles from any farm, we cut open deer full of corn. Baiting seems to be rampant and is a pretty hotly debated issue if what I read in Wisconsin Outdoor News is any indication.

A common thread between game-farming and baiting seems to be the concentrating of animals to an unnatural degree.

Tim

[ 05-28-2002, 05:53: Message edited by: tarbe ]

MGC,

Glad you liked the quote. Jim Posewitz has some pretty good books out that you might look into. His son is a colleague of mine here at "The U" and both have some pretty good things to say about hunting although the young Alan Posewitz can't hit a grouse to save his life (just kidding if he's reading this! ). As for this years draw? Nope. In the great lottery of hunting in Utah I have, yet again, drawn a blank. I was nearly positive that I was going to draw that cow bison tag on The Henrys this year (my odds were about 1/3)! Failing that, I couldn't imagine failing to draw out on ALL of my five pronghorn units but that is exactly what happened! I'm not complaining too much mind you. I dont have room for the taxidermy that is still being worked on much less anything in addition to that.

Regards,

JohnTheGreek

John the Greek,
If that were fact, then today there would be no hunting in South Africa and much of zimbabwe IMO..

I see proper game farming as a means to preserve all the species we have to today and to maintain a huntable number of these animals...

the African contenent has given me a much broader view of hunting and its salvation than the emotion based aspects of many...I suppose simply because I am in the hunting business and the salvation of the animals that have been so good to me is the most important aspect in my life.

I know it is all based on the almighty dollar and thats its salvation, as long as game is worth big bucks it will always remain but when it has no monotary value is will cease to exist...

Sometimes the big pictures isn't as pretty as we want it and our thinking things will change and reverse is frivolus.

When someone doesn't like a situation, the best approach is to find a solution, try to do something other than complaining about it.

I always told my kids when they think they got it rough just remember, Bull riders don't even have a pickup man!!! but only cowboys understand the true meaning of that one

I'm sure that a biologist of the stature and with the knowledge of a Jim Posewitz would probably know nothing about wildlife if we believe some of the posts here.................................. Mr.Posewitz is also a very well known, reputable hunter that knows a lot about where the future of hunting is going.

Hi Ray,

In some ways I agree with you. There are certainly some species in South Africa (the Black Wildebeest for one) that would likely not even exist today were it not for game ranching. And, of course, there are also plenty of species that are far outnumbered in their native habitat by the populations on Texas ranches (I would wager this is true of such great species as Scimitar Horned Oryx, Blackbuck and Markhor) This is acceptable to me and VERY preferable to imprisoning these animals in zoos. Since the likelihood of a cooperative reintroduction effort between U.S. private interests and foreign public wildlife interests seems pretty remote, I suppose Texas ranching for ultra-exotics is the best we can expect for the preservation of these species. The situation doesn't have to be the same in the U.S. however. I think ranching definitely has a place in the vast scheme of wildlife management in North America as well but ideally when it is coupled with natural habitat preservation and species reintroduction to that habitat. I want this sort of public/private partnership.

If someone wants to whack a 7x7 elk on 1000 acres for $10K then that is great (not my cup of tea regardless of the terrain but great for him/her) but I think some of that cash should go into the preservation and expansion of that species in its real environment and to the preservation of hunting that species as a "real deal" proposition. I definitely don't like the idea of a rancher inbreeding 7X7 elk for huge profits and then polluting a dwindling population's natural gene pool with his escapees or adding to the CWD problem. Sure, this requires some government intervention which is, of course, inefficient but not nearly as ineffecient as trying to rebuild vast deer and elk herds.

I don't think we are too far apart on this issue as we both recognize that the game needs to have a monetary value and both of us are willing to pay the price to either a private interest or public agency. I also think we both also recongize a heirarchy of ethical hunting. What a man does with his own money is largely his business . . . until it starts impacting me. When game ranching starts destroying herds with disease or discouraging the preservation of public land hunting then I have a big problem with it.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

For those who might be interested, here is the web site for "Orion The Hunter's Institute" and this provides links to some Jim Posewitz publications and classes at Montana State Univ.

http://www.mt.net/%7Eorionhi/

Regards,

JohnTheGreek

John the Greek,
An excellent post and I totally agree with you.

I also feel that high fence hunting has a place for the senior citizen, youngsters and those that are wheel chair bound, I have just seen too many happy faces to be totally against it..

I have some professional men that can only get two or three days off a year to hunt and it works for them...

I also do not hunt on 1000 acre ranches...A fenced ranch does not denote 1000 acres as some seem to insist...Many are 30 to 40,000 acres and that is a fair chase hunt any way you cut it...

I have not hunted the ranch but have been on one that is about 1000 acres and it would be a bitch to hunt, thicker than peanut butter and so many thorns that one couldn't walk in it..I would probably hunt it if asked...

I see little difference in hunting a fenced ranch and shooting deer out of a blind or bear over a bait or elk at a salt lick.

Bottom line with me is it is an individual choice and most desenters would hunt a fenced ranch if someone invited them free of charge..I have seen this many times with some who write on the subject..I have no problem with that but they shouldn't condem something then do it...

I dunno, being in the hunting business, perhaps I have become hardened to hunting and killing or perhaps I have delt with enough hunters to become synical to their double standards, but that is a mistake also as the whole damn world operates on a double standard, why single out one group, that wouldn't be fair......Que Serrra

This is a real funny topic. ..Talk about a bunch of hippocritical bullcrap by one specific person anyway.

[ 12-16-2002, 23:17: Message edited by: Greenhorn ]

Ray,
We've been over this one before and I'm afraid with some here its a no win situation. I swear if Lucien Maxwell was still alive and still owned his land grant, and high fenced it, some here would think it unethical to hunt an elk or mule deer on it!! (for those of you not familiar with the Maxwell Land Grant, this was the largest SINGLE piece of land in the U.S. - part of northern New Mexico, southern Colorado - ever owned by an individual. Approx. 1,750,000 acres). As usual, these threads start out with a 500 - 1000 acre high fenced hunt, and its not long before we have a few folks that are sooo ethical, that they wouldn't be caught on any high fenced hunt, no matter what the size of the property !! When it gets to this point, I really have to laugh! Lets face it, If you turned a big game animal loose in say the middle of Kansas, long before it ever reached California, Mexico, Canada, or Virginia it would run into a man made obstruction (a fence by any other name) that it couldn't get over or go around. Putting your own size limit on a piece of property is one thing, but saying you wouldn't hunt a high fenced property no matter what the size, really makes an individual look rather ridiculous - don't you think?

I always wonder if any of us were offered one of those fenced $10,000 hunts free of charge, if we would turn it down in disgust as we indicate...I don't think I would, I suppose I would just have to make the best of it and shoot that 400 B&C elk or whatever.

Ray - Count me in if your buying. Heck, I'll even come pick you up and buy the beer. We can tell them we killed the elk 20 miles from the nearest road with bows, and backpacked all the meat out.

Seriously ... I don't have much interest, or see a high fence hunt in my near future, but wouldn't rule it out (20) years from now. Who knows ... The way land is getting gobbled up and developed that may be your only option in the future.

SkiBumplus3

Now, if you would take them down the South Fork of the Flathead River, and fence a thousand acres of Tiger Creek, or Firefighter Mountain for that matter, they would have a hunt. They would be hunting thier breath, and thier car. Plenty elk there, just thick and steep. I guess alot would have to do with the terrain and cover involved.
I spent all season hunting the Creston Breaks on the same 80 acres, unfenced and saw elk and deer repeatedly.

My farm is 5300+ acers as of August this year it is 100% high fenced. I did it to stop poaching of deer and cattle. I never intend to sell access and I stopped giving access when I got tired of being screwed. My family has hunted the land since 1983 and I'll tell you that the hunting hasn't changed except that now I can control what gets killed and what walks. Our stands are more or less stable and have been in place in some cases for 15 years. My youngest son and my oldest granddaughter are the still hunters in the family and they both say that they haven't seen any difference except that there is no more trash, stray dogs, unexpected "meetings" in out of the way areas of the farm, and found long after fact deer. Was it worth the money spent, I think yes, sons think no. All this leads up to; had family from LA in to hunt this season and they didn't know the fence was there wouldn't have if I hadn't told them.
Oh BTY when have we ever had a "right" to hunt?

Hello;
By the name of this outfit, I would deduce that they are located in Saskatchewan, the only province in Canada that allows this kind of crap. Manitoba said no and Alberta has successfully resisted pressure from "Elk Farmers" to allow this type of canned Hunt. The problem is the people who want to promote this slaughter are desparate. Chronic wasting disease and the collapse of the asian velvet market have effectively knocked the underpinninings out from under the Elk business. Their last remaining hope is that they can sucker people into shooting these animals for big bucks. Bulls that they paid upwards of 20,000. dollars for are worth barely hundreds. When finally they go, good riddance to bad rubbish, I say. Unfortuneately, we will have to live with their legacy for a long time. Thanks a lot to all you Elk farmers out there.
Griz

Hmm how'd I miss out on this little discussion.

A while ago a guy posted an add for a friend for one of these canned hunts, and I told him to fuck off basically. I got a good lashing for my comment, even the humble Saeed gave me a slap on the wrist. I didnt bother reading most of the posts, I guess my hopes were that EVERYONE would find this terrible exuse of a hunt into the same context I do, and that is to not even consider it more then you would consider, well, calling shooting a dairy cow ethical hunting.

Anyways, thanks to all those whom expressed their dislike of canned hunting.

Buell

Everybody is entitled to their opinion right... Well...

Captive elk shoots are gay. If you'd do that.. I think YOU'RE GAY!

Reason I brought this topic back up is because I had an opportunity to read Atkinson's responses, which caused me serious sideache from laughter.

He once accused me on another web-site (wrongly and incorrectly) of hunting on a big private ranch that has high dollar elk hunts. The ranch in particular is over 100,000 acres and no fences. He said I took part in what he considered a "canned hunt." After reading his comments, I've come to the definate conclusion that he's a pure blood tosser.

All it takes to get a trophy elk these days is a check for $10K to $20K.

I would prefer to shoot a cow elk on public land.

Still Crawfish

"Oh BTY when have we ever had a "right" to hunt?"

Our Governor came out this fall stating that the citizens of Montana have the right to hunt and fish. She is the epitome of all blonde jokes, but I'll back her all the way on this one. Many out here have to hunt and fish to feed thier families.

Welcome to Montana. Last in the country for income, first for taxes.

I've never done a fenced hunt nor will i. I have too much respect for elk too take them that way and i enjoy the HUNTING too much. To me the hunt is "IT" and the rest is second. Oh ya, i won't try to fool ya i get VERY upset when i don't getem but thats part of it . Trying too think like them an outsmart them. Fortunatly my "Loving wife" gives me enough time out too do that. God bless her! Besides, she don't like beef

Fences and Elk- Not Me!! I'll eat birds first!

Tigar picked a scab early in this thread.

Petersen's Hunting kept repeating articles on Rulon Jones and his canned elk hunts to the point where I gave up. I've been reading and subscribing to that magazine for a hundred years, but decided I needed a break.

Between the canned hunts; the knee-jerk Smith & Wesson bashing then reversing to knee-jerk Smith & Wesson hugging; denigrating every U.S. law enforcement agency in "their" editorials, then rushing in to weep and wrap themselves in the American flag when police and firemen got blown away on 9/11, then going back to unsubstantiated attack mode, they lost me. They have no fixed moral position, they shift to whatever they believe will sell their advertisers products or their own magazines. Whores have higher standards.

Thank you, I feel better now.

Back to the 1000 acre high-fence elk hunt.

If you go way back to the early stages of CWD you will find that the disease started on the inside of these small enclosure game farms, then moved from State to State as game was bought and sold, and somewhere in the process escaped to contaminate herds outside the fences.

The solution the game farm owners wanted was to shoot all the wild game in proximity to their farms (see Colorado news articles). The game farm owners played the agricultural laws against the wild game management laws to see that they got the best of both worlds, damn the health of the wild game most of us love to hunt.

Their interest, which they certainly won't directly express is for a sick and/or dying wild herd, greatly reduced in number, so we can all be forced to "hunt" 1,000 acre pens that they own. They should be taxed out of existence. It's the American way.

Personally, it is not so much the acreage or the fact it is fenced that makes so many of these hunts so distasteful but the "success at what ever the price" ethos that they seem to embody. I never hear of anybody paying big money for cull hunts on these properties its always monster trophy's these folks are after. Basically people want to buy there trophy with the minimum of work. Ray mentions folks who are too busy to hunt but 2 or 3 days a year. I say so what? They could spend those days out "fair chase" hunting. As far as I can see, there is only one thing that motivates 90% people to hunt such operations and that's the near certainty of success on a good trophy�

I don't think acreage is the only measure for this sort of operation. I remember watching an American made documentary about a Texas millionaire who was a sheep fanatic and a group of his Dallas based friends. He needed to take one particular species of sheep to become some sort SCI "Grand Wizard Sheep Hunter" and there were only two places these sheep were found. One was in Iran and the other one of the huge ranches in Texas. The programme showed him flying in to the ranch's private airstrip for a 5 day hunt. So far this was nothing more than a rich man hunting�I have no problems with that. However it went on to show the ranch had a guide already out in the field monitoring the location of a small flock of the these sheep and in particular a "trophy" ram. The guide was in radio contact with base and the hunter was simply ferried out to the location in jeep. A 20 minute walk/stalk from where the jeep could get to, and our hunter was able to bag the sheep, although it did take 3 or 4 shots to kill it. The film then cut back to the guy flying out later that afternoon knowing that he had probably secured the SCI No1 spot with that particular sheep.

The rest of the programme focused on the guy and his friends at home. They showed some of the very extensive trophy collections these people had and interestingly spoke to their respective wives. To a tee, none were interested in hunting, but all were motivated by the status symbols these trophy collections represented. One was shown being distraught that her husbands XXX was no longer the SCI No 1 but had actually been beaten by another hunter in their social circle! The offending trophy was shown being taken down as they filmed! It was actually a very sad commentary not so much on hunting but the sad lives these people actually lived.

How about cow hunting? Why isn�t that more popular? We could get the most wonderfull threads, like: ".416 rigby or .458 Lott for Longhorn?" "Soft or solids for barn hunting?", "Laser rangefinders for extreme farm hunting", "Best barn load for Herefords", "Best woolcutting softpoint for Merinos down under".

Heard about a guy in Norway who rounded up some "clients" and went to England to shoot "mad cows" in a small fenced in field. Makes me sick to the stomach. I realize some fenced in farms in africa are different �cause they are huge, but in general, really.....

Tron

I'm not so sure that CWD is something that came from game farms. I've seen too many things come up over the years by way of research grants, to "find" some problem that has always existed. As long as the grantee can stir a stink, funding will continue. That's how we got wolves back in the west. Thanks for that one.
CWD apparently doesn't transfer to humans. Why are some states trying to kill off herds because of this? They definitely will not get all the white tails in an area.

Different strokes for different folks. As long as the client doesn't use tax dollars or represent the animals as 'free-ranging' trophies, nobody should care.

This falls under 'what I do with my own time and money is MY business'. That is what is referred to as 'Liberty'.

George

[ 12-17-2002, 20:31: Message edited by: GeorgeS ]

With very few exceptions, and those in my view only involve the safety and security of others, what someone does on their private land is their business; not mine, not yours and especially not the governments. This includes "high fence" hunting. If you don't want to do it, don't do it.

If you criticize others for doing these kinds of things I believe you are attempting to impose your views on others and I believe that constitutes tyranny. For me, I have no interest in "canned" hunts and I'll settle for the trophies I can collect on my own, but I will not criticize others for their pursuits.

There is a big difference between expressing an opinion and attacking someone's character. I enjoy discussing opinions; I detest the later and there is way too much of that going on, not only on these forums but everywhere.

When I was very young I thought elk ranches were cool. It was neat to see elk when dad would drive past one. Kind of the zoo mentality. I had no thoughts as to why they were penned up but just to see elk was neat.
Now that I have grown up those same elk ranches disgust me. They have taken an animal that I consider to be majestic and taken it down to the level of Bossy the cow. I shake my head and still stare - with the same need to look that one has when driving past an auto wreck.
I have heard the CWD arguement before, and while I have not heard in scientific proof I quietly hoped that elk farms were the cause - just to get rid of the elk farm. I understand their are some high calcium bone meal diets that could be a source of CWD being fed to captive elk. This diet is designed to promote antler growth for obvious reasons.
Do I blame the "hunter" for killing the captive elk? Well, he is the only one who knows what he really accomplished and let them live with their own set of bragging rights.
Do I blame the elk farmer for providing the elk? It is hard to blame anyone for trying to make a living. Even a porn king or drug dealer needs clients before he makes a profit.

Those who think it is justifiable based on age or ability I tend to disagree with. In Colorado there are specific licences for those with disabilities. Usually in areas where normal hunting has not been allowed (Air Force Academy) and a herd that need managing. Otherwise they set aside rules regarding shooting from roads and vehicles so that handicapped people can still hunt in there way. and help manage the wild populations.

In general hunting is done of wild animals. The captive elk in Colorado are not managed by the Division of WILDLIFE - they are managed buy the Department of AGRICULTURE. Draw you on conclusions there.

I know things we say and do on this forum will have no impact on the captive elk industry, but if they are going to do it, I wish they would do it somewhere else. When an elk ranch is in the middle of wintering grounds and you see the difference between a captive and wild elk is the fence they are looking at each other through, it takes something away from the whole species.

Yep hunted high fence deer ranch in TX once! Never again. If you wanted horn it was $100 a piont -nice 8 Piont $800 anything over 10 piont was $1600, does were $100. It was like shooting fish in a barrel. In the two hours I hunted (Doe) at $100 a day I saw fifty doe and atleast 15 bucks worth over $800 and 5 $1600. Also you had to have a ranch hand with you to tell you which buck you could shoot. Nothing under 3 years old.
Now if you can call that hunting- have at it, I can't

PS because of High Fence ranches there are very few free run deer in TX. Because its standard practice to round up/entice them(feeders), the deer into an area then fense them in. There are many cases of nieghbor (low fense ranch) cutting High fense places to let deer out so they have something to hunt on their property.

[ 12-18-2002, 01:34: Message edited by: Gunnut45/454 ]

Still Crawfish
Well let me tell you what the difference is:Before you fensed your property the deer were free roaming and didn't inter breed! Now your gene pool is locked and they will breed themselves out of exsistance in ten years! Unless your buying other deer to restock? How many deer do you have on 5300 aces? Max compacity is 1700 deer and thats only giving each 3 acers to live on. So you feeding those deer as well. So they are not wild but domestic animals.

Hmmmm, Maybe I'm about the only one to hunt a high fence operation on AR. I shot my first elk a couple of weeks ago on a high fence ranch in Texas. About a 6 hour drive west of Houston. I've hunted the ranch before and the owner lets me stalk which I enjoy. I'll agree it's still not like real mountain hunting for elk, but I'm extremely happy with mine. It's a 5x6 rack and the taxidermist should have it ready by August.

To be honest I don't have the time or legs required anymore to hunt the mountains. I also hear horror stories every year from hunters I know about their various trips to hunt elk. Poor guides, poor animals, poor facilities and all pretty expensive. One of the guys has been either 4 or 6 years in a row, used different recommended services and has yet to get a shot at a decent Elk.

Don't feel too bad Browningguy.

Hunting in a fenced area is kind of like riding a moped or a fat girl.

It's great fun, you just don't want your buddies to know you did it.

I find the majority of hunters who oppose fenced hunts have never tried it.

The bottom line is that as long as the fence is there to manage trophy quality and does not play a roll in the outcome of the hunt, I find it perfectly acceptable.

I happened upon the Chief of Operations for Texas Game Commision or whatever it is called down there, and he told me that the percentage of high fence area was between 5-8%. That was from the horses mouth, according to the horse. Just FYI, Jim R

BuffBwana... I'm sure that fence played no roll in the outcome of the hunt.

Browningguy.. I don't think you're gay. You were very honest in your post. It's good that in Texas you can do that if you'd like. I have to admit I'm very glad it's not allowed here in MT, where we have pleny of big native elk to go around to those that want to work at it.

Here's a guy, however, that I think is REAL GAY mostly because I read a story about it in a hunting magazine that didn't truthfully represent the type of operation it was.. and there was a picture listing the animals score as a B&C score.. which of course doesn't allow captive elk to be entered.

The web-site has been modified after a flurry of fun was made of it across the internet. Most of the mis-spelled words and hillbilly grammer has been corrected.. I see they are still practicing genetic "breading" though.

I tell ya.. if somebody said hey buddy, come shoot this 450 bull on my place... I'd do it. I honestly wouldn't pay over $100 dollars or take a day off of work for it though. Spending $12,500 seems to be a hilariously desparate measure to hang a big rack on your wall. I bet this fat boy in the camo is darn proud though.. and that's all that matters isn't it..



http://www.monsterbulls.com/hunt/index.htm

I tend to follow the words of 500 Grains on this one, if we are talking about ranches who's area is less than 20,000 hunting acres. There are those that hunt in RSA and the places are fenced, but the acerage is in most cases over 30,000 acres to as much as a 100,000 acers.

It has been stated by professonals, that 1 mile per hour of travel in the mountains above 6,500 feet of elevation is the norm. So a hunter would have a heck of a time covering 20,000 acres in a weeks hunt on foot.