The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting Opinions on high fence elk hunting?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Opinions on high fence elk hunting? | Login/Join |
| <waldog> |
This fall, I'll be hunting Wyoming muleys. That is considering I draw the tag to begin with. Once that happens, I'll find several areas to hunt in the area the tag is good for. After a quick weekend scouting trip or two, I'll have an idea of just where I'll be hunting. Then I'll actually go hunting where I feel my chances are best of finding the type of big buck I'm after. And, I'll be hunting with the perfect willingness to go home empty handed. I put it this way to point out that to me 'hunting' involves more than killing or even a series of stalks. More often than not, I spend more time hunting for places to hunt than actually persuing the actual animal. And over the last several years this has payed HUGE dividends! And my trophies are that much bigger and more meaningful. Most things that require hard work and personal investment usually are. Even so, I have my doubts about American high-fenced hunting. I suppose the reason for this is because I've messed up my share of opportunies at animals. Usually, these criters then decided to relocate themselves onto another parcel of ground that was inaccessable to me. Or disappear to an unknown area altogether never to be heard from again. That's hunting. That's an essential part of hunting. Just how is a half-wild bull elk supposed to do that on a 1000 acre postage stamp? (Answer: He can't) Now, other critters (ie whitetail) may be closer to a needle in a haystack on that same 1000 acre piece of ground. Habitat and terain are valid considerations too. So those of you who say it depends, are quite right. It most certainly does! All this thread amounts to for me is this: After reading the various posts, there are those who I would like to share a hunting camp with, and those I wouldn't. Those whom I would be impressed by their trophies, and those I wouldn't. One last thought, I submit that "record books" are only journals of freakish horn growth. However, "trophies" are monuments of an individual's determination, ability, commitment, ambition, opportunity, and skill. What constitutes your biggest trophy? | ||
|
| <awknod> |
Ray a couple of things. you refered to taking a 400 B&C bull within a fenced area. if it were killed it would not be eligible for boone & crocket. 2nd If I walked a mile in his shoes I would run into a fence! | ||
|
| <Daryl Douthat> |
I have never hunted fenced in areas and don't plan to. Rather than asking hunters what they think of that kind of "hunting" try asking non-hunters. Many of my friends don't hunt but support it provided it is fair chase. I get asked about fenced hunting by people amazed that it exists. Universally they are repelled by the notion that killing fenced in animals could be construed as hunting(unless the fence surrounds one of the smaller states like Texas). And the future of hunting will not be determined by hunters(a dwindling percentage) but by the much larger population of non-hunters. I guarantee you, "hunting" fenced in animals doesn't exactly garner support for authentic hunting. | ||
|
| one of us |
Daryl, I agree 100% with everything you've said. And you cracked me up with "one of the smaller states, like Texas". Smooth my friend. | |||
|
| one of us |
Aquavit I really like the way you think! Waldog and Daryl also make very good points. I don't think this type of "hunting" gives us hunters a very good image overall, to the general non-hunting public. In my mind, private ownership of elk, whitetail deer, etc. is wrong and to me that should be the end of the discussion. A while back I found a web site with links to several articles that address this issue. For anyone interested here it is: www.bcwf.bc.ca/committees/gamefarm/gamefarm.html | |||
|
| one of us |
Awknod, I never said I was hunting on 1000 acres for a 400 plus bull elk...the place I have in mind is about 10,000 ac., so you would have to wear bigger shoes.  ------------------ | |||
|
one of us |
In addition to booking hunts, I outfit quite a few hunts on high-fence ranches. While all of my Whitetail ranches are low-fence operations, 90% of our exotics are taken behind high-fences. Despite the fact that I do guide people quite often on these places, I do not hunt high fences myself (except for larger operations in Africa). Because I do consider myself an ethical hunter, I do everything in my powers to screen prospective hunters. I do my best to weed out the whack 'em and stack 'em types and the guy that walks up to every animal with a tape measure as it's trying to take it's last breath. I have found that, for the most part, I get 2 types of hunters: 1. A guy that is after something he isn't going to get in the wild, like a Scimitar Oryx or Dama Gazelle 2. A guy that is getting too old or sick to hunt out west anymore. Odds are he , has spent thousands of dollars and several years hunting out west with no success. He can't do it anymore and just can't stand the thought of not having an Elk on his wall. Is it wrong? In the right circumstances, I don't think so. The fact is that many species, especially those from Northern Africa and Asia, are nearly extinct in their native range, while we have tens of thousands of them here in Texas. They exist in large herds which need to be managed. If they are hunted on larger ranches with lots of cover and difficult terrain, it is a hunt. It may not meet your standards, but if the hunter in question worked his ass off and come away with a positive experience, what is the harm? No one is forcing you or me to go out and do it. Almost any hunt can be made easier. Can't get a Leopard, run him with dogs. Bongo too difficult, dogs work there, too. Is that big Bull Elk giving you trouble? Try pushing them with a 4 wheeler or helicopter. While the Elk example is blatantly unethical and illegal, the fact is that much of what makes a good hunt is up to your personal ethics. A hunt is only what you make of it, and if you want to cheat, the size of the place is irrelevant. While high fence hunting may not be for you, don't knock it without knowing all of the circumstances. For some people, it's their last or only chance, and I do my damndest to make it a great EXPERIENCE. ------------------ | |||
|
| one of us |
Some of the easiest hunting I have ever been on is on unfenced and extremely large parcels of land, both in the US and Africa...Tanzania and Zimbabwe are literally crawling with game and both are a much easier less challanging hunts than some of the high fenced Texas hunts I have seen.. Some folks hunt litte and read to much then base all thats holy on what they think they know, which is not always the case. A high fence can mean that the hunt is a non sporting adventure and that's for sure, or it can be the toughest hunt that you will ever go on, short of an Alaskan sheep hunt. I make my living in the hunting business and I listen to a lot of tripe over whats sporting and what is not from the political correct of the hunting world and I just pass it off as so much BS. All would do well to judge each hunt on its own merits or lack of and make their decision on this... Try a whitetail or Nilgai hunt on the King Ranch in Texas, it can be pretty sporting other than they have such a large population of game that one is tempted to shoot a lesser animal than he should, much like hunting the prime areas of Africa. Since the King ranch is larger than some states I suspect it might surface as good fenced hunt or some states don't qualify as sporting. ------------------ | |||
|
| one of us |
Why doesn't someone write NorthSask and complain/find out details?? [This message has been edited by Johnny Ringo (edited 05-18-2002).] | |||
|
| one of us |
It is called Hunting, not Shooting. High Fenced hunts for big game in the Western USA is no more than "culling" or "selling" a product. These Elk (and other species) are raised like Barnyard Bessy, ran through squeeze chutes, doctored, fed grain/mineral supplements (somtimes by hand). Many see the "rancher" everyday and hear his pick-up. Most have ear tags. When the Client books his hunt he has to pay for size. They turn the elk out into the enclosure prior to his arrival and he shoots it. Here in Utah there are 2 well known "shooting" ranches. Madsen Elk hunt their Bulls on a paltry 640+ acres. The operation in Price has around 7,000 acres, but is very open and showing a client a Bull is as easy as me showing you one of my Herford cows. There is also a BIG difference between High Fenced and Private property. A 36" fence never stopped a mature deer or elk from running off the property. These animals free range and are not (usually) hand fed. While the High Fenced hunt is nothing more than killing. I'll step out of the crowd on this one and say that I beleive high fenced hunts in the USA, for native species, are wrong and should be banned. | |||
|
| one of us |
These fenced animals are hand fed?? well what the heck do you call the 11,000 head of wild elk that are fed all winter in Jackson Hole Wyoming, where for two bucks tourist go out on a wagon and feed cow cake to the elk...C'mon if your going to make such silly statements then get all the facts... A big high fenced ranch can be a real tough hunt and those animals get hunted year around and that makes them wilder n hell.... Some folks out there don't have weeks to spend in the mountains of Idaho and Wyoming, they are heart surgeons, Judges, professional people that devote their lives to our good. They need a place to go hunt for a few days then back to the grindstone...Some out there are old and some are unhealthy and they also benifit from some of these high fenced hunts. We have some youth hunts for street kids orphans and boy scouts behind high fences, lots of justification for these hunts, and I'm just touching the tip of the Iceberg here and I could go on... Bottom line is some of you hollier than thou cyberspace hunters are just full of crap on this issue...If you feel that way for yourself thats fine, but don't put that guilt trip on others that have no other choice but to give up hunting altogether..Go watch the Disney channal, maybe Bambis on. Sorry, but I just hear so much of this happy horse hockey from folks who been reading to much, that it gets to me from time to time. Half of Africa is high fenced, parts of Canada and it will someday be the only way to hunt...the world is getting smaller. I hunt the fenced ranches, I hunt Tanzania, RSA, Zimbabwe, Spain, Australia and the huge ranches of the Texas Southwest, Alaska and Canada. They all have their good points and bad points..I like them all....I just love to hunt if its fair chase, and I am not about to let some computer nerd tell me where I'm supposed to hunt or not hunt, nor will I tell them. I refuse to let anyone juge my hunting area, I'll be the one to make that decision. Sorry if I pissed some of you bitches off! ------------------ | |||
|
| <ovis> |
Ray, Most of us have said it just didn't suit us personally. It seems we're only "full of crap" when we don't agree with your self serving principles. As far as computer nerds go, I believe you're the one with over five thousand posts on this forum. Spend more time in the field Ray, fences or not, you've, obviously, forgotten what you're missing. | ||
|
| one of us |
Orvis, I spend more time in the field than you and I don't even know you, but I feel I can make that statement safely enough, and I stipulated that it's a personal choice to be made by each of us so pick your own spot. What I won't allow is anyone else making my decisions for me, like yourself.. Does it serve my interrest? probably, so what, I'm in the hunting business, high fence and no high fence, take your pick.I donate a lot of bucks to hunting and the preservation of our heritage, I wonder if you do?..What I do is 100% legal and fair chase, fence or no fence and I make that decision. I don't chastise you for your method of making a living, educating your kids or feeding your family. I would expect the same in return from you. I stated my opinnion and your not required to abide by it, thats for sure, but I have the right to defend it. I did not cast the first stone, and I won't cow down to anyones condemnation of something they obviously know notheing about. ------------------ | |||
|
| one of us |
Wow. I think I can safely say that Ray Atkinson has lost all of the respect that I "thought" I had for him. Ray - I don't appreciate being called a Bitch, Nerd, etc. You know nothing of me but one simple belief I have. Also, Pimps run a business which feeds their families, but that doesn't make it right. I stated that I think Species NATIVE to the USA should not be high-fence hunted. I DO NOT have any experience with "Exotics" or Africa. But I am Very familiar with High-Fenced hunts around here. These animals ARE NOT hunted year-round as you claim. These ranches DO NOT sell their $10,000 bulls in March with NO Antlers. They do NOT shoot their Whitetail and Mule Deer bucks until they achieve certain Antler growth. GET REAL MAN! Yes, buffalo are shot year round. Second, All animals tend to tolerate human interactions when in distress, such as the Winter Feedings. Now if you encounter those same Bulls in the Thorofare (yes, I have been there) during the fall they are much more wary. Come on down to Utah and we'll take a drive on out to 3 elk ranches (that I know of) where you can almost pet the bulls as they eat grain, then you can pick your elk and they'll turn it loose into a High fenced area and you can go SHOOT it. And the Bulls and Bucks are usually kept away from the Cows so cow #1145-a can be ARTIFICALLY INSEMINATED in a squeeze chute. This is after they run the BULL through the chute and Stick an Electrode up his BUTT to make him Ejaculate into a tube. Then You get to shoot your bull. I wonder if Jim Zumbo shoots his bulls and bucks in a 640 acre High Fence??? EXCELLENT post ORVIS, I agree 110%! | |||
|
| one of us |
Sorry your upset, was said with tongue in cheek and not directed at you or anyone in particular... I know nothing of the type of hunt you are talking about on 640 acres...I was mostly referring to a couple of ranches I book for in RSA that are about 13,000 and 40,000 acres under fence and a couple in the USA that are 8,000 and 30,000 acres....and another that is one of the largest ranches in the world and yes they are hunted year around for Nilgai, Eland, hogs, javalina for 6 months..I have another that is 2000 acres of very tough hunting in thorn bush thick enough to flay you in seveal hours. Sorry you have lost all respect for me. didn't intend that, but I'm old and have these hot flashes and fits of anger, comes with age...started when I was about 5 or 6... ------------------ | |||
|
| one of us |
Geez ray,that nice post about profanity,then I see you calling people "bitches". You sound like the typical woman ray. "do as I say, not as I do". As for fenced elk hunts. In my area there is a ranch called the NX Bar. It has zoo hunts for elk and buffalo on 20,000 plus acres. First off you aren't allowed to use bugles or cow calls,because it supposedly makes the elk combative and they tear each other up,break antlers whatever.Which is hard on a business based on trophy antler size. What it really does,is make it difficult for them to brain wash a client into thinking he's looking at the largest elk on the place and then have a bigger one show up to the call. Trophy bull hunts run 10 grand for 6 point or better. I've watched guys take bulls in the 320 class,have the guide tell them that is the best elk on the place and then take another client out who is a personal friend of the millionaire that owns the ranch and shoot two bulls both in the 380's-390's. [This message has been edited by RMK (edited 05-20-2002).] | |||
|
| one of us |
RMK, I suppose I see a difference in bitches ( a female dog) and a word used daily by hunters and dog men and the four letter words and sexual references that you use towards some of our posters, mine was tongue in cheek, yours are just attacks and vulgar... just my call. ------------------ | |||
|
| one of us |
Having been on and hunted a number of Texas ranches, some observations. Much depends on the species. The elk, red deer, and fallow deer I've seen look as dumb as posts. One ranch I was on has a herd of elk (which they do not hunt) that run up to any vehicle they hear, expecting food. The rancher blew her horn to call on the elk to give my kids a look at em. Sorta like bugling, I guess. I couldn't shoot one of these. Fallow deer stand and gawk at you. Aoudad are the wildest I've seen, and bolt at the first look at you. Blackbuck are very shy, females even more than the males. Whitetail are whitetail, very spooky. No skill needed to sit in a tower blind and snipe a doe or young buck eating corn under a feeded. Done it a bunch, and consider it exciting grocery shopping more than hunting, but there's not enough pressure on deer in most places in Texas, and we'd be having massive starvation without this kind of hunting. A quality whitetail buck is never easy, but lots easier out of a blind. Stalking is almost impossible in many Texas locations. I had a very exciting hunt last year for a cow eland, playing tag with a group for 9 hours on a 1000 acre fenced section before a successful long stalk. A good hunt that I consider a tune up for a hunt in Africa and a good way to break in a new .375. A plus is the 400 pounds of prime venison I fed my family with this year. I have as much trouble with leaving venison behind in Africa as I have hunting an African antelope on a fenced ranch. See, I'm from Louisiana, where we learn to eat well early, and we consider the trophy on the dinner table more than on the wall. Texas history is Texas history. It's been fenced for 100 years. I'd rather see a ranch managed for wildlife, with all species of wildlife benefitting than a ranch beat to hell by cattle. I was on my friend's small ranch near Houston yesterday. We spent the day talking about how to manage it for wildlife, with plantings, bird boxes, etc in the mix. It's the hard way to get an agricultural tax exemption. The easy way would be let 30 cattle beat it to death. The other choice is to let these big fenced ranches get broken up into little ranchettes,where wildlife will suffer. Too much of that going on as it is. For those of you who've never walked 800 acres of creeks, cedar thickets, oak jungles, etc., you may have mistaken notions about shooting fish in a barrel. It's not the million acre national forest, but it's real hunting nonetheless, as long as you have a sense of fair chase. My last hunt was with my son, looking for a mouflon ram on 10,000 acres of high fenced ranch. One brief glimpse of a ram at 250 yards (too long a shot for a 14 year old). An exciting stalk, no ram, but a great hunt with my son. It's the only choice we had for a mid March spring break hunt with a few days off to blend with a family vacation. It's the kind of trip I'll remeber forever, my son will too, no animal taken, but big deal. My two cents. Bob | |||
|
| one of us |
How big does the ranch have to be before it we call it "fair chase?" The intial post was about an elk hunt on 1000 acres. Is this big enough? I read the article, and the author was bow hunting to begin with, then switched to a rifle on the last day, and shot an elk. In the same magazine, the same guy shoots a water buffalo with a cross bow, and it is revealed he's shot the new x-bow record water buffalo. I was surprised that a highh fence animal would be included in the books... I would go to a ranch and shoot a bison, I guess, but I'd treat it for what it is- as someone else put it "a exciting way to go shopping" And I wouldn't be writing a story about it either ! But anyway, when do we consider it fair? The places Ray is taling about in Africa, seem pretty big; the spots MGC talk about do not. We should compare apples to oraanges, maybe... | |||
|
| one of us |
Bobc summed it up well. Elk in captivity become like livestock. Whitetail deer on the other hand are like coyotes. The more exposure to man they get the wiser and smarter they get. | |||
|
| <ovis> |
Ray, You're a funny guy. On another post you give advice to one of the posters about bad language and attitude and then you come back and set such a fine example; not good for business guy. You're right, you don't know me. I'm one of those people you mentioned that can and do spend as much time as I please in the bush. As far as money given to worthwhile organizations, well, I give mine because it's a good thing to do not with the thought of furthering my personal agendas. My personal agendas, that would be spending the spring bear hunting and salmon fishing. The summer would be more salmon fishing with halibut and trout mixed in. The fall, six weeks with the sheep and big bears. Then follows steelhead through ice up and varminting all winter. One thing you and I agree on is that the world is becoming a much smaller place. We differ in that I don't want to fence what's left. All I ever said was that shooting behind a fence wasn't for me. You don't "cow down?" Well I don't kiss anyone's posterior for a dollar; I just never developed a taste for it. And by the way Ray, it's Ovis; Orvis would be more like the types you deal with. | ||
|
| one of us |
Ovis, Well good for you, and I respect your position on the issue. However, I'll have to stick with my hidden agenda it feeds the kids and keeps the wolves from the door. ------------------ | |||
|
one of us |
Fence vs no fence gets as contentious as some of the "religion" arguments I've seen!! I am glad we have choices in this country, plain and simple. I have hunted a 6000 acre fenced ranch in Texas loaded with dumb exotics, when it was all I had time for. This October I will be backpacking into a Wilderness Area in Idaho along the upper St. Joe for elk. Two vastly different types of recreation, but I can appreciate both. And nearing 45 years of age, I realize my days of packing elk on my back in the mountains are limited. At the end of the day, we have our own conscience to deal with, not someone else's. I personally think there is a fair amount of liberty that should be given here. Tim | |||
|
| new member |
In the end, the larger society decides what will be legal. High fence hunting may get rationalized as an acceptable practice by some hunters, but it is the kind of thing that non hunters who support fair chase hunting find repellant. Justifying it as a way to make a living is no defense at all. I was one of the posters who was stunned by the response of some of its supporters and I sure lost respect for them and one in particular. I have trapped for a long time and have seen the fate trapping has suffered. Trappers ignored public opinion until it was too late. I hope hunters don't do the same. | |||
|
| one of us |
Several years ago myself and a few friends wanted to hunt wild boar. Not having time to go to a state that had them we looked into a preserve here in PA. After we sent in our deposit I heard the place was more like a small farm with a pened up lot. I bailed out and gave up my deposit. My buddys went though. What they got was NOT a hunt. When they went in the fenced area the 3 guys with high powered rifles shot three big pigs that were feeding a couple hundred yards away. They were done. Now the guys who were bow hunting, my friend included were told to stand along some VERY worn trails and the owner said he would drive the pigs past. Well come close to noon my buddy had not shot yet. Every one else had a pig. The guy asked him "Do you want one or not"? My buddy said "Look they are running full tilt, can't we let them calm down so I can get a clean shot"? "The guy said aim in front of them they can't get away if you make a bad hit"? Folks this is NOT hunting. Now on the other hand other friends went to a preserve for wild boar and were turned loose on several hundred acres of thick hilly nasty land where the pigs ran wild. No one told them where the pigs were and they had to actually hunt for them. If the pigs busted them off they ran. My friends skill as hunters is what it took for them to bag their pigs. Granted the pigs could only run so far but for someone who is limited to hunting time it is an otpion if it is hunting, and not just shooting something standing in a pen. ------------------ | |||
|
| one of us |
I may be hunting behind a high fence in August in the RSA, but it will be the first time. I'm not looking forward to that part of it. I won't hunt high fence in the States, even in Texas. I've seen some of those exotics behind high fences. I used to have to go in to drilling rigs on some of those properties. Most of the exotics just stood there looking at me from about 50 yards. Oryx, fallow deer, axis, etc. It's not hunting. To me it is a sad development I'm glad I'm fifty five. I've had about 40 years of great hunting. The next forty don't look too interesting to me. | |||
|
| one of us |
I agree with d douthat. This type of hunting (if you want to call it that) makes all hunters look bad to non-hunters who don't really know what real hunting is like. I am especially against high fence hunting in the U.S. of native big game like elk. If you think about it, having privately owned elk creates a market for elk meat and antlers, which puts a price on all of our wild elk. The spread of disease from elk ranches to wild elk is another big problem. Some of you seem to think that what happens on private property is the landowners business and should not be regulated in any way. But would it be ok for a landowner to pollute a river that ran through his property? No, because it affects everybody else who lives downstream. Privately owned deer and elk affects the perception of hunters by non-hunters in a negative way, and it affects the general public negatively also. Therefore, private ownership of deer and elk should not be allowed. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not thinking in the best interest of hunters. | |||
|
| one of us |
Washington Hunter You have set up a straw-man argument ("Some of you seem to think that what happens on private property is the landowners (sic) business and should not be regulated in any way.") that does not accurately reflect what I am reading on this thread. Then you suggest making an activity illegal at least in part because of someone else's perception being affected negatively. First off, no one here is defending anything illegal. We are talking about whether or not a legal activity is something we agree with, or not. I don't thing anyone here is even remotely suggesting that the law of the land should be "anything goes on private property". If you go ahead and support making the taking of elk on private property behind a fence illegal, how much of a precedent have you set for the anti crowd? Think about that. It is the same reason the pro-abortion crowd resists any weakening of abortion rights. They fear the precedent. And hunters should, too. I know, I know...it's a fine line.... Tim | |||
|
| one of us |
You are correct,it is a fine line, when it comes to High fences, but many open hunts are little more than crap shoots and are even less sporting, than fenced hunts.... I find blind shooting bears and whitetail, bugleing elk, akin to bushwacking, backshooting and dynomiting fish...No skill involved in any kind of stand hunting...and it is less sportsmanlike than many of the larger fenced hunt hunts. Baiting is another, but lots of folks will come unwound on these issues and profess to all it is fine, but thats the way I see it, not my cup of tea....Everyone has to pick and choose according to their specs. I don't mind others baiting, blind shooting or bugling and it is a fair hunt and legal.. I hunt the wide open Govt. lands of Idaho, the veld of Tanzania and Zimbabwe, every year and I do a few fenced hunts in RSA and the US, and I just have to say some of the fenced hunts are very tough hunts... I make my living hunting and I get involved in every aspect of the business and I think that gives me a pretty good overall view of the industry, and gives me the ability to remove the emotion that in many cases leaves one without a clear picture of the reality of the subject, and how individual it is. If I take on a safari company or a privately owned ranch or any outfitter anywhere, I go, I hunt, and I make a decision as to what I consider marketable and fair chase and the fair chase is the key word that determines my decision to book hunts there or not, followed by the professionalism of the outfitter. No one is required to book one of these hunts and certainly they are described up front. Lots and I mean lots of ranches are going to game ranching as opposed to cattle ranching as a means to save the family ranch and to deversify their income so that foriegn business from Japan, Egypt and Europe do not buy our nation and so they may maintain a lifestyle they have had for generations....think about it, we don't have to conquered, if we can be purchased by foreign inities. That is happening.. This isn't as simple a take as some seem to think, and inasmuch as they are not directly involved, they do not see the real veribles that are a part of the industry... The game ranches have and will continue to be the source of replenishment in years to come of all the worlds wildlife...despite Gov. managment on both Federal and State levels....The price of non residents licenses just keeps skyrocketing year after year and will be $1000 in a couple of years and is now in the $500 bracket in Idaho..The only good hunts are draw hunts and it is near impossible to draw and only 10% of the non residents will draw or are allowed to draw, average success is 9% on elk with non guided hunts..19% on guided hunts. Now lets take a look at the guided hunt, it is an open hunt and many of you state this is unsportmanlike and not fair chase because you follow a guide around and he sez "shoot that'un"...Hmmmm more food for a whole nuther argument... What I am saying is the problem is complex and far reaching and the world is changing, and if you cannot change with it then perhaps golf is a better way... But more important is that we all make our own decisions in a free society, not be holier than thou, and let each one of us exercise our right of purchase, self included.... ------------------ | |||
|
| one of us |
I have never been on a barn hunt and never plan, or afford to either. I will continue to Earn my hunting experiences,not pay someone to create them. Maybe I'm one of the lucky ones, a dinosaur, where I can still get permission on private land with a firm handshake and goodwill, As a farmer,we do not want these ugly fences marring our landscapes for the shooting privelege of people we do not know or ever see. Indirectly Ray, you are eroding the real hunting base that is part of our heritage, in place of a commodity based shoot and pay industry. Your attitudes toward the rural areas are so typical of many who think the green areas are just paid playgrounds and landfills for city people, remember that hunters and farmers are not just here to put up a fence so some urbanite can get an artificial connection to the natural world. BR | |||
|
| <Tigar> |
Speaking of legal, I don't think high fence hunting is legal everywhere. Maybe one or two of the guys from MT can chime in, but I seem to remember hearing the state outlawed these game farms. When I was there hunting this last fall, some guy with a private herd of elk was offering to let people come shoot them for little, if any, money. Supposedly he couldn't sell hunts any more and he couldn't afford to feed them. If so, good for them - way to go MT! Elk from these game farms as unfair as bugling for elk? What! Maybe 100% guarantee for the game ranch elk vs. a 20% success rate for bowhunters should be the first clue. Bugleing in an elk takes a lot of skill, and is very far from a sure thing. In fact, many are now call-shy and ignore you or run away. Give me a break. | ||
|
one of us |
Aye, 'tis true. Montana now forbids such things. I had mixed feelings about the issue, as the Montanan in me bristles when told what I can do on my own land, but as a hunter I harbored opposing concerns. Moot now, but there is no canned hunting here. Redial | |||
|
| one of us |
tarbe, I wouldn't say that making canned hunts illegal is setting a precedent for the anti-hunting crowd. In fact, I would say that it would do the exact opposite. How do you think non-hunters perceive hunters who adamently support any type of "hunting," whether it is ethical or not? Ray, I think you're out of your mind...how can you compare baiting, hunting from a stand, and bugling elk, to hunting animals that are inside a fence? You've obviously lost touch with reality. You say lots of ranches are turning to game ranching in order to save the family ranch. Well, why does it have to be a high-fence type ranch? If they would improve habitat on the ranch, they could have plenty of native wildlife, and they would be there by their choice. I know I'm not the only hunter that feels this way. It was hunters in Montana that were responsible for passing that initiative recently, that outlawed canned hunts. And Wyoming banned game ranching years ago. | |||
|
| one of us |
WH The anti-hunters I know don't do much differentiating between me backpacking into a wilderness area alone to hunt elk and the guy who shoots a hand-fed whatever. They mostly don't want anybody shooting anything anywhere. Do you really think they hate the canned hunts and will leave you and I alone? Again, you make a reference to ethics, but you assume you will be the one to decide what passes muster for ethical. Chances are it will be some lawyer from Boston who has never hunted and owns three cats and a poodle!!! (no offense to those with cats...oops, I have a cat!!!). Tim | |||
|
| one of us |
tarbe, well to me the ethics of "hunting" a high fence ranch is not really the most important issue concerning game farms. I really don't care if a guy wants to pay $10,000 to shoot a tame bull elk. It's the other issues that I have a problem with such as disease (CWD.) There are many other reasons that elk farming negatively affects our wild elk populations but I won't get into it now. For anyone interested here is a web site with links to several articles about game farms: www.bcwf.bc.ca/committees/gamefarm/gamefarm.html | |||
|
| <ovis> |
Ray, I think you said it all when you used hunting, business, and industry in the same thought. To most of us, hunting is so much more than that. When you talk of success percentages, sure they're low, that's why it's called hunting. Taking game every time out isn't why most of us are out there. There you have it, no more from me. This whole thing has left a bad taste in my mouth. | ||
|
| one of us |
There are purists in every discipline, and there are those who, for whatever reason(s), take a more pragmatic approach. Ray takes the pragmatic approach (on this specific issue) I suspect because this is how he makes his living and feeds his family. How is it that we can lose all respect for a man who deals pragmatically with how he legally feeds his family? This same man probably is more of a purist in some areas of the subject than those who claim to no longer respect him. No criticism to any of the posters intended. I respect the variety of opinion on the subject. I also respect sincerity and I believe all the poster here are sincere. Makes me think of varmint hunting. I've gone on several P-dog shoots. I have to admit to questioning in my own heart the use of P-dogs as living targets. Would I go out tomorrow if the opportunity came up. Probably! Would I do some more soul-searching...yes. I don't pretend there is only one correct answer to many of these issues. And I don't always know why we do what we do, the way we do it. Especially when we have reservations. Competing interests, I guess. And this dilemma extends into every facet of life! Tim | |||
|
| one of us |
Of course if the hunter crawled into the 1000 acre enclosure before daylight, shot the elk at dawn, then laid up all day so he could get it out that night. Now, that would be a real challenge! But it would very offensive to many as well. I guess each person has to set his own parameters. Regards, Bill. | |||
|
| One of Us |
The quote presented below pretty much sums it up for me. Legal and moral are two VERY different things as far as I'm concerned. To say that something is O.K. because it is a LEGAL way to make a living or behave is just ridiculous. I've done plenty of things in my life that were legal that I'm not at all proud of and would damn sure never do again. I suspect most of us have. "Game farming commercializes the last -Jim Posewitz
JohnTheGreek | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 3 4 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting Opinions on high fence elk hunting?
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia
| View $GS_USERNAME's Public Profile |
| Add $GS_USERNAME to my Buddies |
| Add $GS_USERNAME to my Ignore List |
| Invite $GS_USERNAME to a Private Topic |
| View Recent Posts by $GS_USERNAME |
| Notify me of New Posts by $GS_USERNAME |
