Lots of people condemn so called long range shooting.

So let determine what the law should be.

Question:
What should be the legally allowed range to shoot at a big game animal.

Choices:
under 200 yards
under 300 yards
under 400 yards
under 500 yards
under 1000 yards

Question:
So at what distance over the legal limit would you take the killing shot on the next world record.

Choices:
1 yard over
10 yards over
50 yards over
100 yards plus over
I would never fire a shot over the legal distance.

Question:
If you wounded an animal and it ran over the legal distance, at what distance would you fire a killing shot

Choices:
1 yard over
10 yards over
As far as I could place a bullet to finish it off

Question:
Should there be a law

Choices:
yes
No
let ever one decide for them selves
I know better then every body else so what I says goes

 

Shouldn't be law at all, rather should be regulated by ethics and personal association.

We're it me, I'd be teaching and advising those I am mentoring or partnering with to follow the traditional get as close as you can and make a carefully placed shot. "Spray and Pray" or "Hail Mary" I wouldn't put up with. If they weren't under my influence or otherwise independent of me I'd not participate with them and explain why.

Obviously this long range stunt hunting is seeking public approval and I'm happy to express my disapproval.
If you don't want my opinion, don't seek it.
More laws is really more restrictions and I don't need that.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
Shouldn't be law at all, rather should be regulated by ethics and personal association.

We're it me, I'd be teaching and advising those I am mentoring or partnering with to follow the traditional get as close as you can and make a carefully placed shot. "Spray and Pray" or "Hail Mary" I wouldn't put up with. If they weren't under my influence or otherwise independent of me I'd not participate with them and explain why.

Obviously this long range stunt hunting is seeking public approval and I'm happy to express my disapproval.
If you don't want my opinion, don't seek it.
More laws is really more restrictions and I don't need that.

Couldnt say it better Scott

If you are an ASS HOLE, A law wouldn't make any difference!!!

Hip

As much as I hate this fake-sniper trend that is rampant among rifle hunters these days, I really would rather see us police ourselves. A law is going to be nearly impossible to enforce and will likely hurt hunting in general. But egos have taken over and there seems to be no thought given anymore to what chance these “SEND IT” guys have of actually being capable of making a shot ethically – it’s all about the bragging if they make a clean kill - and the cover-up when they don’t.

Are real snipers at all offended at the stolen valor of so many fake sniper types pretending that the deer, antelope or pigs they’re hunting might be shooting back at them??? These days I’m surprised if I see a heavy barreled .308 Win that DOESN’T have at least a 20x scope – yet the average shot they’re capable of consistently making in field conditions is often under 200 yards.

It's stunning how often I hear the same exact story when I bump into guys at the range, around town or on email. It goes like this:
Other guy: “Don’t you hate everyone shooting too far on game these days???.... Hey, did I tell you about the buck I got at 750 yards last season?”
And in most cases I know these people, have shot with them, and know they can’t consistently hit the vital area on a deer at 300 yards, much less whatever unethical distance they’re bragging about.

I can hardly believe how many times I’ve watched guys struggle to hit my vital area sized steel plates at 300 and 400 yards in ideal range conditions with a benchrest and great light. Yet at the same time they’ll be telling stories about all the game they’ve taken at stupid distances. The irony is brutal - and is usually entirely lost on them.

For the most part ethical hunters, when faced with vital area sized plates (not the CAR HOOD size plates the so called long range shooting schools use), they start to realize that they shouldn’t be shooting past 300 to 400 yards when they see how low their hit percentages are at those longer distances. But so many people shooting at 30” plates, or full sized human torso plates, somehow equate those occasional hits with qualifying them to ethically hunt at that distance.

Whatever happened to stalking to get to an ethical distance from your game? Often a 15 minute hike will make the difference between a 30% probability of making a vital area hit into a 90% probability.

When all this craziness started I made the effort to build a 1,000 yard range, bought/built sub-half minute hunting rifles, got the high-end optics, worked up loads that will shoot tiny groups at stupid distances – BUT after years of burning powder at long distances, shooting with lots of different self-proclaimed long range hunters – I have concluded that it’s an EXTREMELY small percentage of hunters have good enough field technique, field dope, ability to read wind, mirage, etc. to humanely attempt taking game past 400 yards. I know this is a bold statement on the internet, where hardly anyone has ever missed a shot under two miles…, but after 30+ years of guiding a few thousand people, I believe it’s a valid and honest conclusion.

And the folks that are taking the long shots are usually the LEAST qualified to be taking them. Ethical HUNTERS know the variables are too great to risk wounding an animal. It’s sort of like I teach new hunters about shooting standing unsupported on game. It’s for experts and idiots… and the experts know enough to find a rest.

A couple years ago I asked on a forum what was the percentage of first-shot vital area hits they needed during practice to determine their self-proclaimed maximum distance. I don’t recall anyone giving a real answer. When I set out monkeying with the long range gear I really thought I could extend past self-proclaimed 300 yard max distance. BUT after years of practice, with super accurate guns/ammo/optics, I can’t honestly say I’ve increased my high-percentage first shot distance on vital area hits a whole lot. In field conditions I’m still not always steady enough, and or reading the wind or mirage well enough to hit my 8” plate at 400 yards for me to consider it ethical to take game at that distance or futher. I well know that in the world of internet bragging that 400 yards is considered EXTREMELY SHORT RANGE to the key-board snipers, but I have yet to shoot with anyone that I felt I’d let them take a shot at 400 or past on one of my guided hunts – no matter how much they brag or how much their gear cost.

The caliber choice of the wannabe snipers drives me crazy too. Remember when the .260 Rem. was introduced and everone thought it was just about right for their wife or kids to use for their first close range deer rifle? Then the same amount of terminal energy was reintroduced as the 6.5 Creedmoore and it’s touted as the perfect long range elk cartridge. Elk didn’t get any less tough in those 10 years - but maybe our average shooter did.

For years when people puff up their chest and want to take a long shot (when typically we can just stalk a bit closer) I offer a deal to the shooter. I’ll say, “Okay, I think this is too far to ethically take the shot and we should get a little closer. But if you insist on taking the shot from here – and you make a clean one shot kill – the animal is on me. And I’ll be glad to cover the cost in exchange for seeing such a great shot (their eyes really light up!). However… if you miss, wound or we have any drama getting the animal put down, then… I own your rifle." No one has ever taken me up on it. They always say, “Okay, let’s get a little closer”. I DON’T want anyone to take me up on it, I just want people to contemplate a bit of potential pain on both ends of the rifle. Too many people just wing bullets without worrying about an animal possibly suffering for a few days before it dies of infection. But if they have to venture putting 0.001% of their net worth on the line… it’s suddenly not worth the risk. Funny how that works.

My conclusion is that long range hunting is easy… if you just toss your ethics out the window. Make lots of attempts at stupid distances, brag about the clean kills, don’t talk about the misses or wounded ones. If you don’t have qualms about wounding game - or don’t even bother going to look for blood after attempted shots - then long range sniping at game is simple and efficent.

I wish we could police ourselves on this issue, but we seem to be doing a terrible job at it. I just don’t trust more laws against hunters to fix the situation. Hopefully some of my rantings will help a few people arguing these points with their hunting buddies.

(Not that ringing the steel at silly ranges isn’t fun. It just has nothing to do with ethical hunting. I just hung a 30” plate at a mile and that’s pretty rewarding to hit. But I still must admit that to get an ethical percentage on vital area first shot hits in field conditions my personal shots on deer sized game need to be kept to under 400 yards.)

The longer I hunt, the shorter the shots get. My 6mm-284 is mostly wasted on 100-yard shots...

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:
The longer I hunt, the shorter the shots get. My 6mm-284 is mostly wasted on 100-yard shots...

I’m doing the same, also I grew up on “ get closer the better even if you loose shooting opportunity “
Must have had good teachers as it stuck with me and it is a blast and so exciting to get as close as possible
Spring bear hunt I got shot at 15 yards at good boar.
Unfortunately this long range invaded archery industry in bad way as well ( 50-80 yards being norm )

quote:

yet the average shot they’re capable of consistently making in field conditions is often

What is this mythical "field conditions"

Does it mean always shooting off hand.

Dose it mean shooting from a box blind with your rifle in Bog pod or having bench like rest.

Does it mean kneeling, prone.

Does it mean standing with shooting sticks or a tri-pod.

Does it mean prone with bi-pod and butt bags.

Does it mean leaning against a tree.

Does it mean shooting in rain, wind, two feet of snow.

Yes it does it means all the above and more.

Each and every one some time some place some where.

Would shooting in a 30 to 40 mph gusting wind at 100 yards prone off a bi-pod at a standing target be unethical.

Would shooting at a standing target prone off a bi-pod on a perfectly wind still day. At a lasered verified range. With a rifle that well place a round every day into the kill zone at that range. From that position be unethical.

So many ups, downs so many scenarios. I can come up with one to fit any situation good or bad.

Given the right "field conditions" I can or cannot take the shot.

I can set up the best shooter in the world and make him miss.

I can take a bad shooter and most likely have him hit. But then I have seen some bad shooters miss some really close targets.

Some days and conditions it is perfectly ethical to take a "long shot".

Some days and conditions it would be unethical to take what would seem to be a "short shot".

So many variables so little time.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:



So many variables so little time.

And it is the responsibility of an ethical hunter try try to remove as many of the variables as possible to increase the odds of a clean kill. Most folks get that, you seemed to have missed it.

I'm surprised this post is not promoting the newest gadget, hooking up your cell phone to your rifle or some other wonder product.

And people wonder why the Anti's have a negative view of our sport? Might be time for some self-reflection.

quote:

And people wonder why the Anti's have a negative view of our sport? Might be time for some self-reflection.

They’d hate us if we hunted with a loin cloth and a spear, then donated all the meat to the homeless.

Kyler:

Great post!

quote:

Originally posted by Jason P:

quote:

And people wonder why the Anti's have a negative view of our sport? Might be time for some self-reflection.

They’d hate us if we hunted with a loin cloth and a spear, then donated all the meat to the homeless.


Kyler:

Great post!

You may very well be correct but I still feel it is on us to put forward the best image possible for the non-hunting public to see. Many non-hunters are not anti but not pro-hunting either. It is that middle ground that matters the most, the folks you can reach.

quote:

And it is the responsibility of an ethical hunter try try to remove as many of the variables as possible to increase the odds of a clean kill. Most folks get that, you seemed to have missed it.

One can not remove all variables.

You seem to miss the fact that things happen.

Didn't see that twig or blade of grass.

The critter took a step just as you touched the round off.

The wind gusted just at the wrong moment.

If you shoot at enough critters enough times.

Things happen.

If you say it never happen to me the you haven't shot enough.

Giving up another freedom?? Im not for that, Im not for long range shooting beyond 400 yards but thats MY choice...Many good Americans dies to give me that right, freedom of choice...

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by Jason P:

quote:

And people wonder why the Anti's have a negative view of our sport? Might be time for some self-reflection.

They’d hate us if we hunted with a loin cloth and a spear, then donated all the meat to the homeless.


Kyler:

Great post!

You may very well be correct but I still feel it is on us to put forward the best image possible for the non-hunting public to see. Many non-hunters are not anti but not pro-hunting either. It is that middle ground that matters the most, the folks you can reach.

So far the poll show most every one would or could break the break such a law at some point.

You should not shot at an animal further than you can practice regularly. That would include in all conditions. Most of us do not have that luxury. As far as a law goes, how would it even be enforceable? Some states have put a "sporting" clause on rifles and calibers to slow some of this down! Colorado has an energy clause on handgun rounds. Ever see a warden with a chrony? How is the energy clause enforceable on a round that is very close to legal without one? Wardens with range finder?

I am going to guess I shoot more often at long range than 99.9% of most folks. At my CO place I can shoot as far as I want right out of back door and shoot several times per day. Right now my farthest target is at 1054 yards; in AZ I shoot at 1200 whenever I go out.

I just took a shot at 910 yards with 338 Lapua; I figured 1 MOA wind and hit 4" high and 2" off center. Yesterday I shot the same target with a 28 Nosler and hit 2" low and 3" left with a 1.5 MOA wind hold. I hit my 715 yard gong dead center yesterday with a 1 MOA hold to the right.

When the wind is not blowing hard, I can hit a 10x10 target pretty much every time. However, the guns I am shooting are heavy, have huge scopes (the magnification and side parallax are vital to see mirage just before I shoot), and are not the best all around type of rifle.

So here are my observations:
1. If you can't shoot at least several times per week past about 500 yards, you will not be a competent LR shot.
2. Trying to hit at 910 yards is twice as difficult as 715.
3. At ranges beyond 1000 yards your time of flight is so excessive that the wind can change enough to miss (remember, you are not shooting one hole groups at these distances either).
4. Unless you can see mirage (which you almost always can) your odds of having a good wind call go way down. My hit probability at 900 and beyond plummets on very cloudy days.
5. Strong, gusting winds make long range shots almost impossible. Sure, I have connected but my hit rate is about 65%.
6. Terrain has a huge impact on what wind does; you need to shoot around large hills/mountains if you want to connect in mountainous terrain.
7. I shoot at rocks in AZ quite a lot; unless I have shot at that place before, finding the rock I shot at from long range is no easy task; the terrain looks much different once you get there. Even finding an animal you have shoot at long range can be a challenge, to say nothing of locating the blood trail if he is not DRT.
8. Anyone can adjust for a first shot miss and then delude themselves into thinking they could have made that shot. I limit myself to one shot per wind condition unless I am completely mystified, in which case I might shoot a different rifle or take a second shot. In other words, my next shot today will be in a few hours, when the wind has changed.
9. If my wind holdoff is greater than 2.5 MOA, my odds of connecting go way down; obviously, that means shooting a high BC bullet at high velocity.
10. I have not missed my 500 yard gong (10x12 inches) since I can remember in any wind condition. If that is the farthest range I had available, I could easily think I could connect at 750 in any wind condition.
11. Holding up an anemometer and thinking that is the wind speed all the way to your target is delusional.
12. One of the most valuable pieces of gear I have is a shock-corded wind flag that I plant in front of me before taking a long range shot, especially if there is no mirage.
13. At very long range, spin drift and aerodynamic jump have to be accounted for.
14. Hope is not a firing solution.
15. Don't forget to practice offhand at 100 yards

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
I am going to guess I shoot more often at long range than 99.9% of most folks. At my CO place I can shoot as far as I want right out of back door and shoot several times per day. Right now my farthest target is at 1054 yards; in AZ I shoot at 1200 whenever I go out.

I just took a shot at 910 yards with 338 Lapua; I figured 1 MOA wind and hit 4" high and 2" off center. Yesterday I shot the same target with a 28 Nosler and hit 2" low and 3" left with a 1.5 MOA wind hold. I hit my 715 yard gong dead center yesterday with a 1 MOA hold to the right.

When the wind is not blowing hard, I can hit a 10x10 target pretty much every time. However, the guns I am shooting are heavy, have huge scopes (the magnification and side parallax are vital to see mirage just before I shoot), and are not the best all around type of rifle.

So here are my observations:
1. If you can't shoot at least several times per week past about 500 yards, you will not be a competent LR shot.
2. Trying to hit at 910 yards is twice as difficult as 715.
3. At ranges beyond 1000 yards your time of flight is so excessive that the wind can change enough to miss (remember, you are not shooting one hole groups at these distances either).
4. Unless you can see mirage (which you almost always can) your odds of having a good wind call go way down. My hit probability at 900 and beyond plummets on very cloudy days.
5. Strong, gusting winds make long range shots almost impossible. Sure, I have connected but my hit rate is about 65%.
6. Terrain has a huge impact on what wind does; you need to shoot around large hills/mountains if you want to connect in mountainous terrain.
7. I shoot at rocks in AZ quite a lot; unless I have shot at that place before, finding the rock I shot at from long range is no easy task; the terrain looks much different once you get there. Even finding an animal you have shoot at long range can be a challenge, to say nothing of locating the blood trail if he is not DRT.
8. Anyone can adjust for a first shot miss and then delude themselves into thinking they could have made that shot. I limit myself to one shot per wind condition unless I am completely mystified, in which case I might shoot a different rifle or take a second shot. In other words, my next shot today will be in a few hours, when the wind has changed.
9. If my wind holdoff is greater than 2.5 MOA, my odds of connecting go way down; obviously, that means shooting a high BC bullet at high velocity.
10. I have not missed my 500 yard gong (10x12 inches) since I can remember in any wind condition. If that is the farthest range I had available, I could easily think I could connect at 750 in any wind condition.
11. Holding up an anemometer and thinking that is the wind speed all the way to your target is delusional.
12. One of the most valuable pieces of gear I have is a shock-corded wind flag that I plant in front of me before taking a long range shot, especially if there is no mirage.
13. At very long range, spin drift and aerodynamic jump have to be accounted for.
14. Hope is not a firing solution.
15. Don't forget to practice offhand at 100 yards

I agree with the above!

Every time this discussion about limiting freedom to make those who can't do it feel good, I feel ill.

I shoot a minimum of 3 different rifles twice per week at various close to far ranges. With that said, there are just shots that, even though relatively close, I won't take on game.

The issue is that those same 99% of hunters have not shot their rifles since hunting season and still suppose they're good shooters. It just cant be so!

Perfect practice makes perfect But don't suppose for a minute that someone who shoots at range consistently would take a shot at an animal unless they knew with a high degree of certainly that they had the skill, equipment and conditions to make the shot with high ethics.

Example: I can't run 100 meters in 10 seconds but I'm not dumb enough to tell someone else they can't. Why should someone suppose that I cannot make a 717 yard shot on an aoudad.... or a 60 yard shot on a bear?

Get real folks!

Zeke

quote:

Originally posted by ZekeShikar:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
I am going to guess I shoot more often at long range than 99.9% of most folks. At my CO place I can shoot as far as I want right out of back door and shoot several times per day. Right now my farthest target is at 1054 yards; in AZ I shoot at 1200 whenever I go out.

I just took a shot at 910 yards with 338 Lapua; I figured 1 MOA wind and hit 4" high and 2" off center. Yesterday I shot the same target with a 28 Nosler and hit 2" low and 3" left with a 1.5 MOA wind hold. I hit my 715 yard gong dead center yesterday with a 1 MOA hold to the right.

When the wind is not blowing hard, I can hit a 10x10 target pretty much every time. However, the guns I am shooting are heavy, have huge scopes (the magnification and side parallax are vital to see mirage just before I shoot), and are not the best all around type of rifle.

So here are my observations:
1. If you can't shoot at least several times per week past about 500 yards, you will not be a competent LR shot.
2. Trying to hit at 910 yards is twice as difficult as 715.
3. At ranges beyond 1000 yards your time of flight is so excessive that the wind can change enough to miss (remember, you are not shooting one hole groups at these distances either).
4. Unless you can see mirage (which you almost always can) your odds of having a good wind call go way down. My hit probability at 900 and beyond plummets on very cloudy days.
5. Strong, gusting winds make long range shots almost impossible. Sure, I have connected but my hit rate is about 65%.
6. Terrain has a huge impact on what wind does; you need to shoot around large hills/mountains if you want to connect in mountainous terrain.
7. I shoot at rocks in AZ quite a lot; unless I have shot at that place before, finding the rock I shot at from long range is no easy task; the terrain looks much different once you get there. Even finding an animal you have shoot at long range can be a challenge, to say nothing of locating the blood trail if he is not DRT.
8. Anyone can adjust for a first shot miss and then delude themselves into thinking they could have made that shot. I limit myself to one shot per wind condition unless I am completely mystified, in which case I might shoot a different rifle or take a second shot. In other words, my next shot today will be in a few hours, when the wind has changed.
9. If my wind holdoff is greater than 2.5 MOA, my odds of connecting go way down; obviously, that means shooting a high BC bullet at high velocity.
10. I have not missed my 500 yard gong (10x12 inches) since I can remember in any wind condition. If that is the farthest range I had available, I could easily think I could connect at 750 in any wind condition.
11. Holding up an anemometer and thinking that is the wind speed all the way to your target is delusional.
12. One of the most valuable pieces of gear I have is a shock-corded wind flag that I plant in front of me before taking a long range shot, especially if there is no mirage.
13. At very long range, spin drift and aerodynamic jump have to be accounted for.
14. Hope is not a firing solution.
15. Don't forget to practice offhand at 100 yards

I agree with the above!

Every time this discussion about limiting freedom to make those who can't do it feel good, I feel ill.

I shoot a minimum of 3 different rifles twice per week at various close to far ranges. With that said, there are just shots that, even though relatively close, I won't take on game.

The issue is that those same 99% of hunters have not shot their rifles since hunting season and still suppose they're good shooters. It just cant be so!

Perfect practice makes perfect But don't suppose for a minute that someone who shoots at range consistently would take a shot at an animal unless they knew with a high degree of certainly that they had the skill, equipment and conditions to make the shot with high ethics.

Example: I can't run 100 meters in 10 seconds but I'm not dumb enough to tell someone else they can't. Why should someone suppose that I cannot make a 717 yard shot on an aoudad.... or a 60 yard shot on a bear?

Get real folks!

Zeke

To many people who can not do something.

Are very willing to tell others they can not do it either

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by ZekeShikar:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
I am going to guess I shoot more often at long range than 99.9% of most folks. At my CO place I can shoot as far as I want right out of back door and shoot several times per day. Right now my farthest target is at 1054 yards; in AZ I shoot at 1200 whenever I go out.

I just took a shot at 910 yards with 338 Lapua; I figured 1 MOA wind and hit 4" high and 2" off center. Yesterday I shot the same target with a 28 Nosler and hit 2" low and 3" left with a 1.5 MOA wind hold. I hit my 715 yard gong dead center yesterday with a 1 MOA hold to the right.

When the wind is not blowing hard, I can hit a 10x10 target pretty much every time. However, the guns I am shooting are heavy, have huge scopes (the magnification and side parallax are vital to see mirage just before I shoot), and are not the best all around type of rifle.

So here are my observations:
1. If you can't shoot at least several times per week past about 500 yards, you will not be a competent LR shot.
2. Trying to hit at 910 yards is twice as difficult as 715.
3. At ranges beyond 1000 yards your time of flight is so excessive that the wind can change enough to miss (remember, you are not shooting one hole groups at these distances either).
4. Unless you can see mirage (which you almost always can) your odds of having a good wind call go way down. My hit probability at 900 and beyond plummets on very cloudy days.
5. Strong, gusting winds make long range shots almost impossible. Sure, I have connected but my hit rate is about 65%.
6. Terrain has a huge impact on what wind does; you need to shoot around large hills/mountains if you want to connect in mountainous terrain.
7. I shoot at rocks in AZ quite a lot; unless I have shot at that place before, finding the rock I shot at from long range is no easy task; the terrain looks much different once you get there. Even finding an animal you have shoot at long range can be a challenge, to say nothing of locating the blood trail if he is not DRT.
8. Anyone can adjust for a first shot miss and then delude themselves into thinking they could have made that shot. I limit myself to one shot per wind condition unless I am completely mystified, in which case I might shoot a different rifle or take a second shot. In other words, my next shot today will be in a few hours, when the wind has changed.
9. If my wind holdoff is greater than 2.5 MOA, my odds of connecting go way down; obviously, that means shooting a high BC bullet at high velocity.
10. I have not missed my 500 yard gong (10x12 inches) since I can remember in any wind condition. If that is the farthest range I had available, I could easily think I could connect at 750 in any wind condition.
11. Holding up an anemometer and thinking that is the wind speed all the way to your target is delusional.
12. One of the most valuable pieces of gear I have is a shock-corded wind flag that I plant in front of me before taking a long range shot, especially if there is no mirage.
13. At very long range, spin drift and aerodynamic jump have to be accounted for.
14. Hope is not a firing solution.
15. Don't forget to practice offhand at 100 yards

I agree with the above!

Every time this discussion about limiting freedom to make those who can't do it feel good, I feel ill.

I shoot a minimum of 3 different rifles twice per week at various close to far ranges. With that said, there are just shots that, even though relatively close, I won't take on game.

The issue is that those same 99% of hunters have not shot their rifles since hunting season and still suppose they're good shooters. It just cant be so!

Perfect practice makes perfect But don't suppose for a minute that someone who shoots at range consistently would take a shot at an animal unless they knew with a high degree of certainly that they had the skill, equipment and conditions to make the shot with high ethics.

Example: I can't run 100 meters in 10 seconds but I'm not dumb enough to tell someone else they can't. Why should someone suppose that I cannot make a 717 yard shot on an aoudad.... or a 60 yard shot on a bear?

Get real folks!

Zeke

To many people who can not do something.

Are very willing to tell others they can not do it either

Well, I will say this: there is a point at which you can mathematically prove a shot is too far; it has nothing to do with skill - it is pure physics. Happy to lay out an example.

Here's some facts:

Everyone has their limits.
Equipment has limits.
Shooting conditions will limit range and even nix a shooting opportunity all together.

It's the individual's responsibility to KNOW what THEY can do rather than dictate to others based on their limited experience.

If you're not shooting weekly, you're shooting weakly!!!

Zeke

I've said this many times; I'll shoot at paper or a gong at any range under any conditions but I'm very VERY selective when I "send" a bullet at game animals.

PS: I was shooting pretty damn small groups at 600 yards with my 20 Practical on Saturday but that doesn't make it a 600 yard rifle except under ideal conditions (for varmints only)

Zeke

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

And it is the responsibility of an ethical hunter try try to remove as many of the variables as possible to increase the odds of a clean kill. Most folks get that, you seemed to have missed it.

One can not remove all variables.

You seem to miss the fact that things happen.

Didn't see that twig or blade of grass.

The critter took a step just as you touched the round off.

The wind gusted just at the wrong moment.

If you shoot at enough critters enough times.

Things happen.

If you say it never happen to me the you haven't shot enough.

I have been doing this a long time, almost 40 years. I have seen things go wrong for myself and for others around me. That is exactly why I believe you should try to remove as many variables as possible. The longer the distance, the greater the odds are that something goes wrong. It is simple math. Wind, drop, animal movement, unseen obstacles, all have a greater chance of having a negative impact on shot placement at a distance when compared to taking a closer shot. I think you know that but that knowledge is conflict the point you were trying to make with your post. For the record, I do not think we need a law to set distance but each hunter should be responsible for his/her own actions and put in maximum effort to make a clean kill.

Hunting is a conglomeration of different thoughts given that all do not have all the skills to hunt. Many were not brought up in a hunting family and were not afforded the pass down skills from older generations. This I understand.
My personal restriction on range is no more than 300 yds. Quite frankly I still enjoy the spot and stalk to as close as I can possibly attain. I continue to enjoy actually hunting my prey. Having said this I must say that I have been busted by many good deer, elk and other fine game. But, I have learned through my mistakes. At my age, 70’s, I continue to stalk as close as possible. My mantra is hunt hard, kill swiftly, offer no excuses. MTG

I have been hunting going on 60 years.

I shot big game as close as feet and farther then some here would think of doing.

I passed on a truly huge mule deer buck as I couldn't get closer.

I watched him stand almost in the same spot for over an hour.

I had perfect conditions to set up for a long shot..

I am a firm believer in making killings shots.

If that be very close or as far as I want to take one.

If I am sure I can make it I will take it.

When the time comes that I have decided to shoot

If I don't think I can make it I don't take it.

I have never seen a long shot that I could not get closer, thats the whole part of hunting, the art of tracking, stalking, within as close to the animal as possible if it moves then you start over or call it a day..

PDS,
Thank you for this post which shows how silly it is feud and fuss of how another hunter shoots his game.
I hunt my way and within game laws how I do it is no ones business.

I really liked Kyler's comments and analysis. His is based on not just his own experience but also the skills and mindset of his clients. I also happen to agree with the idea that you should get closer when you can, and if you can't then you need to be realistic (and ethical) in deciding to shoot.

I've made some long shots and missed some as well. Have learned from my mistakes, mostly through walking and climbing and wishing I had not pulled the trigger!

300 yards with a GOOD rest is pretty much my personal limit when conditions are favorable. One episode in particular stays on my mind.

Hunting in South Texas on a property adjacent to the King Ranch. A sea of grass with islands of brush and thorns. Really nice whitetail buck at just over 400 yards was watching us, and we had a pickup to get high enough to shoot over the grass. Rested my 25-06 on top of the cab, engine off of course, and held at the top of his antlers. Knew I'd hit him. By the time we got to where he was, could find no sign. Too many deer to track one through the grass, so we spent a couple hours looking for anything, but found nothing. Felt pretty bad. Went on to another of the big pastures and another big buck jumped out, close to us. I bailed out of the pickup and shot him in the back of the head. Turned out to be the same deer. He was sporting a small hole just behind the shoulder that missed his heart and stopped with one lung. Lesson learned - you can hit one a lot farther away than you can ethically harvest. Also, a 25-06 is not a 400 yard deer rifle.

My two cents.

Kyler’s, and the subsequent comments are spot-on. Though I’ve hit targets at a mile(not consistently), my personal limit on game—-with a HUNTING rifle is 300yds. The one time I broke that rule was to finish a Black Wildebeest at 450 that a hand gunner had wounded.

That said, we need to police ourselves, NOT more unenforceable laws.

Dave Manson

Why should there be law on how far one can shoot??

There far too many laws already anyway!

They have not solved a thing.

I have been shooting and hunting all my life.

I have seen many individuals shooting and hunting who should never been doing it.

I hear stories non stop of individuals going to Africa to hunt, while in reality they should have never taken up hunting!

Some of them could not hit the proverbial barn door from the inside!

I do not like senseless laws!

What we're really talking about is hunting as opposed to shooting. If you are a hunter then the looong shot is way down the list of options or not even considered. Ray Atkinson has described it perfectly. If you want to take that kind of shot that's your choice but don't blow to me me about your hunting skills.
QUOTE]Originally posted by Atkinson:
I have never seen a long shot that I could not get closer, thats the whole part of hunting, the art of tracking, stalking, within as close to the animal as possible if it moves then you start over or call it a day..[/QUOTE]

When you hunt, you take the shot offered to you.

If you are not in a position to be certain of it, don’t shoot.

What Saeed said

My most important piece of long range equipment is a cardboard box with a 5" circle. I know, from doing it a lot, and recently, how far I can shoot at it and put 5 shots in the circle under field conditions. That is my range limit on a deer or elk. I am only interested in a one shot kill. If the conditions do not meet criterion, I will be back the next day. I fire a lot of rounds, through out the season, but only one at the animal. I am old so can brag a bit!

I tend to agree with its individual, but if we as hunters don’t clean up our act, someone else is going to pass a law.

A suggestion is if you take a shot over 400, that’s your tag. I know a few outfitters taking that route- the hunter says it’s 99+% he can make the shot… ok. You hit the animal and we can look for him, but that’s it. You claimed it, and didn’t deliver.

Doesn’t cover self guided hunts, as no witnesses, but so be it.

I’ve heard and seen too many left animals after one of these long range specialists goes through. Heard stories from folks I trust regarding the guys who do long range tv show.

When a guy insists on getting further away from a game animal because he doesn’t want to shoot less than 600 yards, it’s obviously not hunting anymore.

At least the guys who can’t shoot are generally truthful about it…

quote:

When a guy insists on getting further away from a game animal because he doesn’t want to shoot less than 600 yards, it’s obviously not hunting anymore.

Damn. I met that guy on a Pronghorn hunt two years ago. He also brags too much an d talks too much. He came to sit at our lunch table and immediately talked until my son, my friend, and I got up and left.

Another comment about hunters losing wounded animals:
My wife and I drove down into the hill coiuntry west of Austin to pick up a dog and we drove through very gamey woods and such to the ranch house. While visiting, I commented on the multiple deer we saw driving in. This prompted the owner to tell us that he recently stopped letting archery hunters on his ranch because of the deer they wounded and lost. It sounded like several hunters had filled their tag but had actually left that same amount of dead unrecovered deer wounded or dead. The rancher was visibly disappointed in the archery hunters and now allows known rifle hunter use his property.

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
Another comment about hunters losing wounded animals:
My wife and I drove down into the hill coiuntry west of Austin to pick up a dog and we drove through very gamey woods and such to the ranch house. While visiting, I commented on the multiple deer we saw driving in. This prompted the owner to tell us that he recently stopped letting archery hunters on his ranch because of the deer they wounded and lost. It sounded like several hunters had filled their tag but had actually left that same amount of dead unrecovered deer wounded or dead. The rancher was visibly disappointed in the archery hunters and now allows known rifle hunter use his property.

Very sad.

I personally don't like collective punishment.

One person does something wrong, and then the rest of us are banned.

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
Another comment about hunters losing wounded animals:
My wife and I drove down into the hill coiuntry west of Austin to pick up a dog and we drove through very gamey woods and such to the ranch house. While visiting, I commented on the multiple deer we saw driving in. This prompted the owner to tell us that he recently stopped letting archery hunters on his ranch because of the deer they wounded and lost. It sounded like several hunters had filled their tag but had actually left that same amount of dead unrecovered deer wounded or dead. The rancher was visibly disappointed in the archery hunters and now allows known rifle hunter use his property.

The people who own the land bordering mine on the west side do the very same thing but they are only gun hunters. All their wounded come to my property. I had to put down a mortally wounded doe found in my pond. I found several skeletons last winter.

There are lots of people who only seem to like shooting things and have no plans to recover. With all of the shooting occurring on that property never once did I see anyone tracking anything.