back last of last years hunting season i bought a rem.700 stainless mountain rifle for $400(a great deal in my book),i'm reloading with imr-4350,about 59 to 60grs. of it(using nosler 165gr.bts.),getting nearly 3100fps with no pressure signs and using fed.215 primers and win. brass,using a computer program this load shows good on whitetails out to nealy 700 yds, or so,with the 1000ft pds. or so rule for them.looking for a good scope 4 by12 with adjustible obj. for less than $400 bucks that will do the deal,any ideas on a good quality scope that will stand up to the rigors of contiued shooting and still hold up?by the way,shot 2 whitetails last year(large ones)with a sks and wolf 122gr. or 123gr.hollow points and both were killed with one shot a piece,one was a perfect lung heart shot,the other with a perfect frontal shot that entered the front and exited the abdominal left area both shots leaving large exit wounds,especially the perfect heart lung shot,which left a exit wound the size of a dinner plate(pictures taken and for show if needed)..just adding my opinion......any good opinions on a good scope for less than 400 bucks,preferably 4 by 12 adj. objective matte finish....... thanks, ray

I'd look at Leopold, if you can afford them.
By the way, I think that bullet/velocity is going to make a hellofa mess of your deer.
JMHO

You can not beat the Leupolds for what you want. In fact if you look at the classifieds in Accurate arms right now you will see a 3.5x10x40mm Vari-x 3 (much better suited to the '06 than a 4x12) ...top of the line for $325....great price and in stainless!

BTW as far as your velocity goes (with your claims of no pressure signs) I would like to remind you of one thing.

"There is no such thing as free lunch"

The most I ever got out of any 165 gr in the '06 is 2900 fps and that was hot. You're doing a full 200 fps over that......Be careful!

BTW what is your accuracy like at 100yds....200 yds...300yds etc.

Check yhis out before attempting a 400 yd. shot let alone a 700! I am not trying to burst your bubble, just trying to be realistic.

I have several of the Baush & Lomb now Bushnell Elite 3200 & 4200 models, one of which is a 4x12 on a 257 Weatherby. The are a good scope and fit into your price range.

I have both of those scopes and I much prefer the 3.5 X 10. I don't think you need the AO feature either and the VX-111 has a rangefinder system also.

That's more velocity than I am getting out of my .300 H&H!

I agree with the scope suggestions put forth, and would also like to add Weaver to your list. In your price range, they are a great scope. As to your velocities, they are VERY fast for a 30-06. Nosler quotes 59 gr of 4350 as max in the -06. Good luck, and I hope it works out. - Dan

Buy the cheapest scope you can find, preferably used. That way when the action on that 700 comes flying apart from a 3100 fps load, you won't suffer as much monetary damage.

Some barrels are unusually fast, and some barrel/chamber combinations will accept more powder than others without unsafe pressures, but if you are actually getting 3100 FPS from the 22 inch barrel of your Remington .3006 with a 165 grain bullet, then you have to be achieving pressures that will exceed the integrity of the brass case (and eventually the firearm).

Most .30-06's will just comfortably top 3000 fps with a 150 grain bullet from a 24" barrel.

Actually, your load with IMR 4350, while at the top end of what is normally safe, is not unusually heavy. Are you just guessing at the velocity or is it from a chronograph reading? If from a chronograph, I would suggest that the screen spacing be checked.

I don't mean to seem unfriendly, I just am puzzled at the velocity assumption and am wondering if something is being misunderstood.

In serious response to your scope question, the best bargain in a quality scope is a Leupold 3-9 VX-1 for under $200. Since it's not available in matte, you'll have to pay about $75 more for the VX-II if matte finish is important to you.

I would vote for Leupold as well, but why would you want to put such a big scope on a rim little "mountain" rifle? My lt. wt. .280 M70 carrys a Leup. 3x-9x compact & I don't feel handicapped out to 400 or so for about half of the weight. Just a thought.

Ray:

I don't mean to sound flip either but '06/165/3100 is WAY out of line, (especially out of your 22" bbl). Deer are not killed by computers but buy hunters with good equipment who know how to use it. Forget about that 700 yard capability for now.

I'd also suggest the Leo 3X9 compact in matte finish. (about $300)

Stonecreek's experiance with this bullet is similar to my own. I have a .30-06 Improved and the most I get from it is about 2900 fps with a few more grains of 4350. Something is not right - my chronogrph is off, yours is off, or something.
Great bullet, by the way. Very accurate and hard hitting.

Go with a 40mm 3x-9 or similar in Leupold or Burris and you can't go wrong.

I'm skeptical as well- I'm getting 2900 from my 150BTs in a 23.75" barrel on my StyerMannlicher.
I would be suspect of the chrono as well.
I limit myself to 300yds. and have never shot anything over 220yds. - anyway.
..not a fan of BTs for deer- prefer the partitions or plain old CoreLokts- I like to eat what I shoot- not scoop it up with a shovel.
I do agree with using 150s instead of 165s on whitetails- you just don't need the 165s and the 150s are just a few inches flatter- if that makes a difference.

[ 09-14-2002, 05:22: Message edited by: CaptJack ]

Just went thru my load book on my '06.
With 165's and 58gr of 4350 my avg. vel was 2881. With 150's and 58.5 of 4350(my favorite deer load and most accurate) avg. vel was 2967.
As for scopes, Leupold's are hard to beat for the price. But the Sightron I've been shooting with this past year has been really nice also. It would be hard to choose between the two if I could only have one.

Rlineb.....Told you so. Didn't I?????

My ol -06 shoots a 165 BT with IMR4350 at about 2,950 and it's damn hot. I also have a load with 150 that runs 3,130 fps. Real hot! But my favorite load for deer, etc is 150 BT behind 59 grains of IMR4831 for right at 2,900, which is plenty fast for that 450 yard shot.

As far as scopes go the Leopold VIII would be hard to beat. Weaver Grand Slams my just. I think the best bargain scope out there is the Weaver V series. I have about 10 of them.

My Howa with 22" barrel easily attained 2900 fps with a 165gr, it was nowhere near a max load, I was using H-414 powder.

Hodgon is what I use with 165 H-SST, WLR, Win brass, and 59gr (max) H4350 which sas 2983fps. Is hot, but no pressure signs. Don't have a chrony, so I don't have exact speed. Good shooting!

well,i have got a split head at those loads (1)and a blown primer(1),but the loads seem to do well in winchester cases and fedederal 215mag. primers,plus my rifle has a long throat,i can load'em out to extreme lengths as far as overall length.with imr 4350 i can basically load the case near full of imr4350 with all bullets up to 165grainers and not worry about it,long throat means alot to supposed normal overloads.....i found this out with a 357 i had in the past,got 1900fps or so with 110gr. bullets out of a 6"barrel and near 1400fps or so with 180gr.loads,large throat,extra powder and extra velocity.same thing goes with the weatherby rifles,extra throat room,extra velocity.you tell me or give your opinions......plus,the light magnum or federal high power loads go at 3000fps or so with the 165gr. loads for the 30'06.....

Ray,

well,i have got a split head at those loads (1)and a blown primer(1)

There's your pressure/danger signs. Go back and re read all the posts...your figures are ringing alarm bells with plenty of expirienced folks here...heed their warnings..

Actually split cases and blown primers are not reliable pressure signs as they can occur at way over recommended safe working pressures.

Without fancy pressure reading equipment, I believe the only reliable indication of high pressure is to take Case Head Expansion measurements on your fired cases.

Regards,

Pete

I repeat my original recommendation. Buy a used Tasco, preferably with most of the finish gone and the tube already bent. You (or your heirs) will hardly notice its loss.

When I first read your post and your velocity claim of 3100 fps with the 165 Nosler Ballistic Tip in your 22" .30/06 my first response was it just wasn't credible...this was also my 2nd, 3rd and 4th reaction.

Did you use a chronograph or just estimate it?

Take a look at some of the reloading information for the new .300 WSM and the .300 SRUM....it shows about the same velocity for 165 gr bullets as you are claiming for your .30/06...and that case holds more powder.

Final thought! If you could document that kind of performance I would be willing to start a collection to buy you the scope of your choice.

rlineb,

Many of us have been where you are when we started out loading. There is a curiosity to see what will happen and to see if ("I") can do better than all of the others who have loaded for a particular cartridge. But if you keep adding air to a balloon you know what will happen! You don't want a case to let go and leak back. You have only two eyes just like the rest of us.

Bridges are built with safety factors of maybe six to one or more. This is not the ratio with your loads so throttle it back.

There are plenty of cartridges that will shoot a little faster with safe pressures than the 30/06 should you really need such velocity.

I just looked back in some old manuals and they never suggest that much 4350 in that load.

If I should happen to be in your vicinity when you took a shot at any game animal at 700 yards, the uncomfortable sensation you would have, would be my foot firmly and repeatedly applied to the seat of your pants.

Sport to you, deadly serious to the animal.

Respect them, and know YOUR limitations.

About bullet performance - I loaded some 165 ballistic tips for a .300 Win mag, chronographed at 3220 fps. Used 72 grains of IMR 4350, a max load in the Nosler manual. These were quite accurate and my friend is very pleased with them for deer hunting where long shots prevail. He calls them "exploding bullets." He's happy with them and has gotten quite a string of one-shot kills with phenomenal knock down. They do mess up some meat though. They perform real well at 2700 - 2800 fps from a .308 Win. Regards, Guy

Guys, I think this bloke is having a little fun at everyone's expense. I'm doubtful anyone seemingly so stupid could figure out how to turn on a computer and post this bullshit...

Brad

Brad,

I think that he is just loading too hot and guessing at the velocity.

Please tell me that you are pulling our chain!!

Ok, everyone line up, and we'll do a cha-cha ass kicking line for this guy! :-)

Rlinb:

Re: The Fed. LM loads @ 3000 (in a 24") pressure bbl. I've never seen a rifle test that used these that chrono'd more than about 2900 or so out of a 22" barrel.

Take the last 12 posts seriously, we are not kidding!!! Your loading practices are dangerous and they will catch up with you.

If you don't stop this, we can all safely assume that your mom did not raise any smart kids that lived.

JimF

Hi after reading theese posts i do belive you should thake all this information seriously. I do not have a cronograph to check my loads but i never had a need to over load to get my rifles to shoot well . if you want to go faster than get a 300ultra mag . if you plan to continue on this path would be kind enough to give us your full name so we could get a good life ins policy on you and use this post for future refrences for others with same ideas .thanks hope to hear from you soon . i dont want to loose out on this easy money ....... Bob

you mean to tell me that withall the degrading statement you guys are saying i can't "possibly"get 3100fps with a 165 nosler bt out of a rem.700 ss with a long throat?remington rifles are built to withstand beyond SAAMI specs.,i'm guessing 65,000 or less CUP to achieve this velocity,which i know the 30/06 is rated at 50,000cup,got one blown head and primer,but only one and fired many,plus i always used to get 3,000fps with the 165gr.nosler bt in the past with no pressure signs,loaded the bullets out to the lands and grooves.everyone wants to shoot the probabilty down,but it is possible,very possible.i've been loading fo awhile and i know whats in the loading "reloading"books are a bunch of crap.hell i know some guys that get loads for the 308 from the military guys and they chrono them loads at well beyond 3000fps,they build rifles for the "spooks"so called and get ammo from them that go well beyond the recommended "specs"for the 308"7.62 by 51mm",you tell me are they full of shiite or what?

oh,by the way,had a 7mm STW got 3500fps "plus"with nosler 150gr.bt's,no pressure signs,nothing....sold it to a guy(doctor that relaoded matter of fact used rl22 powder he called me and told me he laser sighted a deer 372 yds. held dead on with my sight in and blew the complete middle lung section of the deer away,nearly in too deer with that load).happy buyer and happy with the loads.....

I suggest that you may want to read the latest issue of handloader pg .46 called pressure guessing witchcraft or science a most excellent article and a chillling one I might add as to where one might be even before there are signs-Rawhider

I get 2850 fps in my 30/06 with the 165 nbt, that 3100 fps is scooting along

rlineb, another thing that is disturbing about your posts are the way you talk of the dinner plate size exit hole you got with the wolf hollow point ammo and the deer your doctor friend nearly blew in two with a rifle you sold him as if you are making a deliberate effort to do as much damage as you can to the game amimal and looking for the ultimate load to do it with.

I may be wrong but your posts give me the impression that your only interest in hunting is to see how big a hole you can make.

Well Rlineb, you're going faster & hotter than I'm going to push my .30-06. You take care now. Guy

Well, I have the exact same gun 'cept not SS. I load a 165 grain Sierra with 59 grains of H4350 and get around 2780fps. When doing testing with Re22 I went up to 64 grains, had to use a drop tube to get it all in, and got the speed up to 2850 fps but started showing signs of pressure such as ejector marks on the rims. I also load out pretty long and 64 grains of Re22 just about filled the case. Now we may have guns on the extreme of speed, yours fast and mine slow but how you are getting almost 300 fps more than me is beyond me. If your chrono is correct, you are in for a problem sooner or later. My question is why would you need or want that speed. You have a 30.06. If you wanted that kind of speed why didn't you buy an UltraMag? Good luck, maybe you should buy a lottery ticket.

NoCAL

I once managed to push a 165 br 2850 fps from a 20" 308. I also noticed a black ring around the primer, and it fell out of the case.

I have no doubt that a 22" barreled -06 could push a 165 gr 3100 fps. Is it prudent or safe to do so? Not just no, but hell no!

Just as car engines have red-lines on the tachs, and they can be revved over that limit on occasions, it doesn't mean it is a good idea to do so. If you do it long enough, the engine will let go. Same with rifles.

Makes one think twice about buying a used gun?