A recent argument on another thread got me to thinking.
dangerous.
Anyway...
Who owns the game animals?
sounds simple huh?
does a landowner "own" the animals that come onto his land?
it would seem so in some states where they high fence deer in, not allowing them to move freely. regardless of how large the area is that is fenced the animals are held captive on that property, stolen from the taxpayers and licensees.

Does the person who buys the license "own" the deer?
if he shoots a deer can he go get it on another mans property without permission if if runs there and dies?
Does the state "own" the deer?
it would seem that this is the most logical answer.
the state dictates when, how, and how many deer can be killed. they set times, limits, dates and method. And if the state wanted they could stop deer hunting altogether and still collect the license revenue by imposing crazy limits and laws.
If the state says you can take only one deer a buck, with archery or blackpowder/ shotgun only from the monday after thanksgiving till the following friday then they would be greatly limiting the ability for someone to take an animal, right?
so who really owns the deer in your state.
what does your state law say?
what does your heart tell you.

To me i think that fencing in deer is wrong and robs the other hunters.
I think that giving special season to people who hunt with "primative" weapons (ie magnum muzzleloaders using scopes and sabots or compound bows w/ mechanical broadheads and carbon fiber arrows) is wrong.
I think sunday hunting bans are wrong.
i think baiting deer and growing vast food plots then sitting on them and shooting deer hundreds of yards away is wrong.
theres alot i'd like to change. here in SC we have limits set on how many deer we can take BUT there is no checking system required.
that means if you dont get caught with more than 2 deer per man at one time your "legally" OK.
the only tags we have is extra doe tags. they count towards your season total but allow you to kill antlerless deer on anyday VS the DNR's prescribed antlerless fri-sat that are sprinkled throughout the season.
we can hunt with pretty much with any weapon we want. muzzleloaders have to use black powder or substitute during muzzleloader season.
if you have a savage MK you can use it during rifle season.
crossbows during archery only for the verified infirmed or those over 65.
season starts in the lower part of the state Aug and ends Jan.
some "zones" allow baiting some do not. some zones dont limit the killing of does.
its like they took a bag of ideas , shook it up and drew them out.
I also hunt in AR were they have restrictions on the size of antlers. the three point rule they call it.
so every deer w/ a legal rack gets shot and then when the rut comes only spikes and forkhorns are around to breed. they also dont shoot enough does and have a craze 20-25;1 doe- buck ratio.

no need to speculate or guess. In Texas, at least, it is very clear: The state owns the native wildlife and set the rules, while the landowner controls access to his property.

Exotic (non-native game, like hogs, sika, axis, etc) belong to the landowner.


"I also hunt in AR were they have restrictions on the size of antlers. the three point rule they call it.
so every deer w/ a legal rack gets shot and then when the rut comes only spikes and forkhorns are around to breed. they also dont shoot enough does and have a craze 20-25;1 doe- buck ratio"

...and situations that are out-of-whack like that are a primary reason that landowners build high fences.

Mr Stevens, I agree with you on many levels, but you have some very unrealistic ideas, especially about private land rights! You are correct, that the wildlife is owned by the law abideing public, but that doesn't give you the right to trespass on private property. It is alomst imposible to high fence a large piece of property in Texas without encloseing some deer. Deer are everywhere in this state. The fact is there are very few High fenced properties in Texas, considering the size of this state,and the fact that it is 98% privatly owned, and only about 1% of the private property is high fenced, and most of those are to keep unwanted animals OUT, not in! High fence is very expencive, and averages $12,000 dollars per mile of fence. Not many can afford that price for fencing, when you consider fencing off most ranches would require from 20- 30 miles of fence @ 12K per mile. $240,000-$360,000 for fence is a pile of money, Hoss!

As I said, most ranches are low fence in Texas,and even that is expencive, and still you can't just go into a man's ranch, and hunt just because there are deer there that belong to the public. What the land owner is chargeing you for, is not the deer, but a trespass fee to hunt on his property. I'm sure if you wanted to use his land for any use there would be a fee for that use. After all, the land is how he makes his liveing!

Like everyone else if you want to hunt on unrestricted public land then you must go out west where there is PUBLIC LAND, like New Mexico, where there is 36,000,000 acres of public land. However, as long as you live and hunt in SC, and I live and hunt in Texas,we will simply have to live with the fact that we do not own all the hunting land, and there will be a cost to hunting on land that belongs to someone else! I can guarintee you, if a farmer catches you on his land in SC, without permission, you will either get shot, or placed in Jail for trespassing, when the law gets you, so who are you kidding with the indictment on Texas being somehow different, than SC. In the real world if the deer are on private property, you will pay, or you will not play! Get over it, or move to New Mexico!

I simply don't see where you have a case blaming Texas for anything,it is absolutely no different from SC, just bigger! When the state of SC has more private property than just about any state in the union, you don't have a leg to stand on.

Son,at the age of 71 yrs, I've learned the world is not going to bow to my, or your wishes. The difference is, I've learned to live in a real world, and you live in a dream world, born of daydreams! I assure you the property laws in SC, are no different from those in Texas, you trespass you pay, one way or another!

Just like in the other thread, I want to ask you how many times have you hunted in Texas, or even been to the state at all? IMO, you are simply repeting what you heard some others say, that didn't know any more about Texas than you do!

olarmy,

the exact same situation in NY state. I think you will find that is the case in most states and i believe Canada also. Its usually covered in basic hunter safety courses is where it is covered.

woe is the poor man who owns land next to a ranch that decides its gonna grow vast food plots dig waterholes then high fence the property.
how does the deer on a fenced property not become the property of the land owner?
how can the state/ people own the deer when a man encloses them on his property?
im not condoning hunting on someone elses land.
I am saying that when a wounded animal runs onto another propert the hunter should legally be able to put his weapon down and cross the fence to retrive the animal, lest it rot in the sun.
why, due to the animals death, is the deer now the property of the land owner.
you want it both ways.
either the deer belong to the people or the deer is private property.

quote:

Originally posted by KSTEPHENS:
I am saying that when a wounded animal runs onto another propert the hunter should legally be able to put his weapon down and cross the fence to retrive the animal,

So by the same logic, If I'm walking my dog down the street and he gets loose and runs into your house, I don't need your permission to come in to your house? The dog that is in your house may belong to me, but I can't come into your house to retrieve him without your permission.

quote:

Originally posted by olarmy:

quote:

Originally posted by KSTEPHENS:
I am saying that when a wounded animal runs onto another propert the hunter should legally be able to put his weapon down and cross the fence to retrive the animal,

So by the same logic, If I'm walking my dog down the street and he gets loose and runs into your house, I don't need your permission to come in to your house? The dog that is in your house may belong to me, but I can't come into your house to retrieve him without your permission.

if your dog runs onto my property then i block its escape or forbid you to retrive it you would have legal recourse to follow.
a hunter who shoots an animal that runs onto another property has no legal recourse if the land owner is antihunting.

A) who said anything about blocking escape?

B)What if it ran into your house and died of a heart attack? You are supposed to allow me to come into your house without permission to retrive my dog. I don't think so!

C) also, the dog clearly belongs to me. The live deer that jumped on to your property does not belong to the hunter, until until he "brings it to bag", the deer belongs to the state, remember?

D) bottom line, a property owner should not be forced to allow an uninvited guest onto his property.

Another issue that muddies the concept of public game on private property, is why should the landowner have to pay to feed the state's deer. If the state owns the deer, shouldn't the state compensate the landowner for the groceries that the deer eat?

quote:

Posted by KSTEPHENS:
I am saying that when a wounded animal runs onto another property the hunter should legally be able to put his weapon down and cross the fence to retrieve the animal, lest it rot in the sun.

Here is a very simple fix, get permission to access the landowners property before hand, if the situation you spoke of happens. I'll bet if you go ask before you hunt most of the landowners will give you permission to retrieve any animals you shot that might happen to cross into their property. Remember this does not give you permission to shoot across the fence, and you should attempt to hunt as far off the property lines as possible. I can't help you with the anti-hunting crowd.

Remember ask permission when hunting don't beg for forgiveness.

quote:

D) bottom line, a property owner should not be forced to allow an uninvited guest onto his property.

What if the only feasible access to public lands is through private lands ? There are many examples of this throughout the country.

And access to prime habitat and good hunting is curtailed when there is no easement through private property.

Whose rights are being violated, the property owners or those who want access to public lands ?

quote:

Who owns the game animals?

Certainly not the property owner.

I used to hunt this finger of USFS land that extended down a ridge between two "ranches" owned by these mega rich anti hunting urbanites.

The bucks and the hogs would feed on the private land and bed in the brush of the USFS, problem was it was a 6 mile walk almost straight down and what felt like a grueling 24 mile trudge straight back up to the USFS ridgetop road.

Took some very nice animls out of there and bloody well earned them. The wealthy assholes complained that "their" deer were being "poached", fortunately the wardens knew better and politely told them to fuck off.

Assuming you mean "wild game", as in not farmed, I would say that no one "owns" wild game, not even a state. The states and many ranches "manage" game and have rules and laws controlling their take, but to say that they "own" it goes a bit far in my book.

If a deer walks from Pennsylvania over the border to NY, you certainly couldn't argue that Pennsylvania is entitled to get it back - same with "wild game" that get through holes at a high-fenced operation. Once the animal is dead is another story - then it's no longer game, but a carcass that can be "owned", most often by the taker.

I visited a high fence here in Texas once, and the owner said he had to get special permits from the state to kill everything on the place. They then had to show that all of the meat was donated to one of the feed the hungry programs.Then they restocked with purchased animals. Also in the state of Texas you just cant go on someone elses property and retrieve downed game. You still have to get landowners permision first.

KSTEPHENS wrote:

quote:

woe is the poor man who owns land next to a ranch that decides its gonna grow vast food plots

Well, the last time I checked, it's still a free country. And we are all free to do whatever we want (as long as it's legal) on our OWN property -- whether it's in the best interest of the neighbors or not.

After all, if we don't like what the neighbor is doing, we all have the option to MOVE, right?

You know, one could also look at the scenario you are alluding to in the reverse.

How about the large ranch that spends money for a biologist, pays careful attention to each and every animal harvested and is in the process of building a better (healthier) deer herd...only to have the new "neighbor" with a 10-acre plot shoot the first yearling buck to come within sight?

quote:

And we are all free to do whatever we want (as long as it's legal) on our OWN property -- whether it's in the best interest of the neighbors or not.

Not really, groundwater pollution caused by a neighbor that affects you is an example.

Or a massive hog operation with "the ponds" directly upwind of you.

There are and needs to be reasonable limits.

Deciding on those limits is the problem.

Skinner wrote:

quote:

Not really, groundwater pollution caused by a neighbor that affects you is an example.

Or a massive hog operation with "the ponds" directly upwind of you.

What's your point? The things you mentioned are GOVERNMENT-regulated.

That is my point, the government can and does regulate what you can and can not do on your property that can affect your neighbors.

Privately owned game, their transport and CWD pops into mind as well.

I don't know about other states, but in my state of Colorado, the game belongs to the state, but a lot of he land is private. If I wound an animal and it runs on private land, I can not automatically go on that land to recover it.

But, I can notify the local game warden and they can usually make arrangements to recover it. Sometimes the landowner will just tell you to go ahead and get it and sometimes they will allow the game warden to recover it for you. It is ia a big working ranch, the landowner will often have one of the ranch hands recover it and bring it out to you.

I've heard that sometimes permission is not granted and the animal goes to waste, but have never actaully had that happen and do not know anybody it has happened to. All second hand info if ou will. I don't hink very many people would condone lettng an entire animal go to waste just to protect their property rights. But then where I hunt in extreme north west Colorado, they still abide by the old western values of hospitality.

Mac

What happens in the case of the poor pilot who has access to a helo but cant afford the high prices of hunting private land. He uses the helo to lasso the monster, 10,000 acre pen raised pet, without touching even a blade of grass. Shouldn't that be legal. hey I may be on to something here. I'm organizing a sit in...who's with me.

Perry

But really
Every state has public land that HAS to be accessible. It may be one hell of a hike as Skinner eluded to but it is there.

Botton line in Texas is the state realizes that most game conscience land owners are better and more passionate about managing the game on their land so the state facilitates them. The results speak for themselves and there is still public land to hunt if you can not afford your own land.

Perry

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
What happens in the case of the poor pilot who has access to a helo but cant afford the high prices of hunting private land. He uses the helo to lasso the monster, 10,000 acre pen raised pet, without touching even a blade of grass. Shouldn't that be legal. hey I may be on to something here. I'm organizing a sit in...who's with me.

Perry

Another day dream! Hunting from an aircraft is illegal in Texas!

this seemed like an interesting topic, so i copied/pasted it to another forum.

here is the reply i got from another member:


-------------------------------------------------------------------------



Alrighty then, let's set this stuff straight.

Q: Who owns the wildlife?
A: The people. Wild free ranging animals are listed and defined as "wildlife" by the state legislature. These include all the species we typically hunt and are regulated by state wildlife agencies. Now, there are some species that are unhunted, i.e., nongame wildlife that are regulated by both state and federal agencies. The USFWS is the federal agency charged with protecting these species, especially if they are of a threatened and endangered status as determined by them or the grossly underfunded non-game wildlife personnel within the state's wildlife agency. While you must typically purchase a license or stamp to harvest game animals from your state's wildlife agency and/or a federal stamp in some cases (e.g., migratory waterfowl) these are government agencies designed to serve the people, though how well they do that is entirely subjective.

Q: Does a landowner "own" the animals that come onto his land?
It would seem so in some states where they high fence deer in, not allowing them to move freely, regardless of how large the area is that is fenced the animals are held captive on that property, stolen from the taxpayers and licensees.
A: This is total and complete LIE in every state I know of that regulates high fence game farms and high fence hunting preserves. If a person wants to run one of these operations, they must be licensed and inspected with regularity. There is nothing "stolen." If said person fences their property the state wildlife agency assesses the number of animals within the fence and due compensation must be paid by the landowner via "replacement fees" typically around $200 a deer in my state - the same that is charged as a replacement fee for illegally poached deer. As such, most high fence operators don't want to pay this and either run out or kill the deer off during legal hunting season.

Q: If the state says you can take only one deer, a buck, with archery or blackpowder/ shotgun only from the monday after thanksgiving till the following friday then they would be greatly limiting the ability for someone to take an animal, right?
A: I dunno where this guy is talking about but in his apparent home state of South Carolina you can take as many as 5 antlered bucks per year + two antlereless. That doesn't sound too limited to me! In Kentucky and Ohio where I sometimes hunt you're only allowed 1 per year. But I go there as a nonresident and paying high nonresident license prices because of the trophy potential as a result of this 1 buck rule. Sounds like this guy is mad about something and I dunno what his agenda is.

Q: Here in SC we have limits set on how many deer we can take BUT there is no checking system required.
A: Better check your regs again there bud, I hope you're not hunting on public ground because you do have to check deer in depending on where you're hunting http://www.dnr.sc.gov/wildlife/deer/deerseason.html

Q: I also hunt in AR were they have restrictions on the size of antlers. the three point rule they call it. So every deer w/ a legal rack gets shot and then when the rut comes only spikes and forkhorns are around to breed. they also dont shoot enough does and have a craze 20-25;1 doe- buck ratio.
A: This is so ignorant I can't even respond. How does he know every deer with a legal rack gets shot? Must be some damn good hunters to harvest 100% of all legal bucks. Spikes and forkhorns do all the breeding? Bigger, more dominant bucks do the bulk of the breeding as per their social hierarchy. A 20-25 does:1 buck ratio. Hmmm, how can there be that many does when all the legal bucks are shot before the rut kicks in? How are more does made? This guy is hanging himself with his own words.

Bottom line, sounds like this guy is upset he didn't get a deer. Probably hunting public land or a small parcel of private land with lots of surrounding pressure. Blames his lack of success of killing deer on state regs and the actions of others. That's what it sounds like to me.

The only thing I do agree with him on is Sunday hunting. You can gamble, watch NFL, drink beer and play the state lottery on Sunday so why can't you hunt? That I do agree with him on.

well in minnesota the indians own all the casinos, therfore all the games

quote:

Who owns the game?

God

Pretty hard to argue with THAT, David!

Gen 1:28 (KJV) :

quote:

And God blessed them, and God said....'[H]ave dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.'

quote:

Originally posted by olarmy:
no need to speculate or guess. In Texas, at least, it is very clear: The state owns the native wildlife and set the rules, while the landowner controls access to his property.

Exotic (non-native game, like hogs, sika, axis, etc) belong to the landowner.

other than saying, the landowner owns ALL hunting rights, i have never heard it better said.

I was talking to a claimed firearm manufacturer the other day at the range.He said he was done hunting in Minnesota.HE goes to Texas in november,where he was going to be guiding on the yo ranch.was also going to be doing some culling while he was there.anything less than 10 point was going down.Wonder who has the tags for all those state owned deer?Apparently no tags needed,he said the coyotes need to eat,too.

quote:

Originally posted by jb:
I was talking to a claimed firearm manufacturer the other day at the range.He said he was done hunting in Minnesota.HE goes to Texas in november,where he was going to be guiding on the yo ranch.was also going to be doing some culling while he was there.anything less than 10 point was going down.Wonder who has the tags for all those state owned deer?Apparently no tags needed,he said the coyotes need to eat,too.

\... the area biologist is the only person that can give tags for a management "cull"...

and, of course, certainly not a management of the YO person, as he can sell "management"hunts, while at a discount, for far more than being taken to jail...

and lastly, if he's in minnesota this time of year he's not involved in the MANAGEMENT of the YO.. he's just another guide, on the pay roll, or an outfitter that up charges the client... Saturday started whitetail bow season here, and the YO hunts year round.

which side of his mouth was he talking out of, as he's not going to "shoot up" the YO...

Ever seen that place? there's no end to it... I hunt, from time to time, a buddy's lowfence place near there...

that the YO would risk fines and pass up cull hunts is a bald face "overstatement"

allow me to restate..
without tags, no one can LEGALLY shoot more than their limit.

that doesn't stop the land owner from selling cull hunts for guys to take ONE or two bucks each.

but hardly a slaughter that breaks game laws...

you know what it is called when a guy breaks game laws?
POACHING

quote:

Originally posted by erict:
Assuming you mean "wild game", as in not farmed, I would say that no one "owns" wild game, not even a state. The states and many ranches "manage" game and have rules and laws controlling their take, but to say that they "own" it goes a bit far in my book.

If a deer walks from Pennsylvania over the border to NY, you certainly couldn't argue that Pennsylvania is entitled to get it back - same with "wild game" that get through holes at a high-fenced operation. Once the animal is dead is another story - then it's no longer game, but a carcass that can be "owned", most often by the taker.

This is a long and difficult path, but erict is much closer to the facts than almost anyone else on this page. In fact, the states do NOT own the game, and to quote one of the many Supreme Court decisions that apply to this, the "legal fiction" that they do own the game is just a device that everyone accepts because it is convenient to do so and allows the management of harvest for the public good. Without digging up the case, one of the decisive cases was N. Mexico vs US when the one of the Federal entities wanted to harvest some game on Federal land and N. Mex. said they couldn't, New Mexico lost.

It is, IMO, obviously unconstitutional to treat non-residents of a state as a separate class when they are both hunting on FEDERAL land. However, that is another issue.

Jb
In Texas we have Managed Land Permits, MLPs, that the state issues nulifying the use of personel tags. Anyone with a valid license can use then on land where they have been issued and there is no limit to the amount of permits one person can use. The YO certainly has this.

Perry

Well, at least in Kansas, you can not retrieve a deer that has crossed into property owned by another......BUT, if the landowner does not either allow you to retrieve it yourself or with their aid (ranch hand or other), or retrieve it for you, they can and WILL be sited and ticketed for breaking the state wanton waste laws.

Now if you just take it upon yourself to tresspass, you can be in BIG trouble in Kansas. If the warden catches you, you most likely will lose the guns and truck. I have seen this one happen. They do that to highly discourage it, since even if you are tresspassing, the landowner is legally responsible for you if you get hurt.

As the warden that gave me this answer stated, "why would any reasonable person want a dead deer that someone else shot?" Good question.

KSTEPHENS,
I think I know the thread you are talking about. I share some of your concerns and often think about the same thoughts you expressed.
I also believe the law state that "wildlife belongs to the state".

I am a firm supporter of landowners rights.

But I have heard several arguments that the landowners are only charging "Trespass" fees. How can they be trespass fees? Are you trespassing any less for a management buck, than a trophy buck? In Texas most Outfitted ranches have a sliding scale for the price of "trespass" 135" b&c $3,500.00 150" b&c $5,500.00 170" b&c $8,500.00 then $100.00 per inch over 170" is a prime example. I guess you have to trespass more for that 170" bad boy than for the 135". Is it a trespass fee or are they selling whitetail deer?

Now I gotta wonder about that statement by olarmy, the landowner owns the exotics. I just wonder, all those Axis deer splattered all over I-10 belong to the landowner. I guess that would be the last piece of private property they left before strolling out onto the freeway? So that's cool, now you know who is responsible for the damage.

As far as trespassing without permission to retrieve downed game. That's the toughest call yet. If you can't get permission you can't go get your animal.

Larry,

The problem with that IMO is that someone can legally stand on their property and shoot the animals on your property.

I had some pecker head shoot at a good buck on our property two years ago so I called the warden. He said they can shoot them all day long on your place but you can't do anything until they tresspass to retrieve them. If they just leave them laying they've done no wrong here. I disagree on many levels.

The only way this could be changed is to say the animals contained on your property are yours until they leave your property. I'd be in favor of that type of law. It certainly would help stop property line hunters. We have too many folks that place stands on the property line yet they are facing other landowner's property, what do you think their intentions are? Yet, there is no law against them shooting deer on others property. Why even own land, the Government might as well own everything. If they own the game, they might as well own the land.

Reloader

Reloader,

Louisiana does not have wanton waste laws? In Texas you would be breaking the law shooting a deer and leaving it lay. You are required to put in a reasonable effort to retrieve game. And shooting across your property line to anothers property without permission is also illegal.

Reloader, let me clarify. They can not SHOOT the deer on your land, that is considered illegal, but if they legally shoot a deer and it crosses on to the land, then the situation applies. The shooting across the property line really has nothing to do with the deer, you can not shoot across the property line for any reason, without permission. It is considered reckless endangerment.

The really strange part of the Kansas hunting laws is that if you have permission to hunt land on both sides of the road, thet you can actually hunt FROM the road as well, as long as you are not in a vehicle. It was intended for bird hunters that hunt the brushy ditches along the road, but deer hunters do it as well.

Jtex and Larry, Just going by exactly what the Warden told me over the phone.

He told me to watch them and when they stepped on my land to call the sheriff and have them arrested for tresspassing. Our game wardens in La will not even issue citations for tresspassing. It's pretty pathetic. Not near the enforcement Texas and other states have.

The outlaws know it and hunt pretty much anywhere they want. When we catch someone, we call the Sheriff, the wardens are no help.

Reloader

for those who feel that the landowner owns the game, can i hold you responsible when "your" deer wanders out in front of my car and kills someone?

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

Now I gotta wonder about that statement by olarmy, the landowner owns the exotics. I just wonder, all those Axis deer splattered all over I-10 belong to the landowner. I guess that would be the last piece of private property they left before strolling out onto the freeway? So that's cool, now you know who is responsible for the damage.

JTEX: yes, they belong to the landowner where they are NOW, not the owner of the land they were on last!. So why would that be the last piece of private property before they strolled onto public property.