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One..Quigley was a movie. Two..he did not have a 45-70. It was a 45-110 or 45-120. I will rewatch the movie and get back to in a day or so to confirm which one.  Mink and Wall Tents don't go together. Especially when you are sleeping in the Wall Tent. DRSS .470 & .500 | |||
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To John the Greek: I agree with your comments regarding the preference points comment. After trying for several years to draw a free roaming hunt and having wanted to hunt bison since being a child I went to a bison ranch. It was a poor second choice, but at least it was an available "choice". I have continued to hunt over the years primarily for the meat, which is more compatible with a required low cholesterol diet. (I understand Asian Water Buffalo and Yak are perhaps even more healthful choices.) I am investigating a Plains Buffalo hunt, which sounds great. I have never seen a 3,000 pound bison, but it must be a sight to see. Best of all he loved the Fall.... E. Hemingway | |||
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On the topic of heavy bison, there is a church pastor here (Solid Rock Church), who has a huge pasture with horses, long horn cattle, and bison. One of his bulls is the largest I've ever seen and I've seen a bunch. The claim is that this particular bull is over 2500 pounds, closer to 2800. Just from looking at him, I'd have to say, I DO believe them. It is ridiculously huge. Compared to an alleged 2200 pound black angus bull, it is bigger, substantially. And they claim it is pretty old. I've seen plenty of bison around Yellowstone, and I was just in Nebraska this past August hunting across the fence row from Ted Turner's bison herd, in the sandhills (Dances with wolves). He had some huge bulls too. I would guess that a bison Could get to 3000 but I'd wonder if it is getting it's steroids from Arnold. Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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I think a ranched (and well fed) Wood Bison bull would have a decent chance of hitting 3000 lbs...maybe. The wild one I shot a few years ago was well over a ton and there was a younger bull near him when we were glassing that was a hand or two taller at the crest of the hump. I also witnessed a 14 year old Plains bison bull in Custer State Park (Custer brands the birth year on all new calves) two years ago that was also HUGE. His horns were worn down to two round short stubs. He probably wasn't 3000 pounds but he was damn sure 2400 if he was an ounce. What was interesting was that the Guide at Custer mentioned that in two years of working there he had NEVER seen this bull. Best, John | |||
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If I get REAL bored today, I'll drive up the road and take a few pictures if I see the bison. The pasture is less than a mile away. Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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Do us all a favor and pose with your hand on his hump so we can get an idea of how tall he is.  Just sneak up on him reeeaaallll slow and armed with a 7mm just in case.  Best Regards, Doc. John | |||
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uhh, I don't think so. I already hate cattle unless they're cooked and on my plate next to the salad and potatoes. I've been told all my life (and we used to raise cattle) that they'll leave you alone. Every time I hunt where there's cows/bulls, they must think I'm either going to feed them or I look like a nice toy to head butt. Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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Apparently a rifle isn't even required. My Brother and his Bison.  Backed up by a 7MM Weatherby. Chuck | |||
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I've been very busy goat hunting, but have checked into this thread from time to time. All I will also say is that there are some very interesting thought processes going on here. I've been involved with and around the demise of a fair number of Tatanka. And I have seen a vast array of armament utiltized. IME this is what I've found to be true. #1- they are big and as such it is very tough to get their attention. I feel that a bullet thru the lungs is a bullet thru the lungs. I mean this is not rocket science you wreck the lungs and things are gonna cease to live! It will still take them a while to get the idea and to kick over, be it with the Rigby (.416 that is) or with a 7/08. Either way it is gonna take some. The last 2 I saw tipped over were with a stick (arrow) and with a 300 Wby/180 NP. Both were double lunged. The one with the arrow walked off and kicked over dead at a timed 13 minutes. The one with the 300 Wby walked off and it took a timed 3 minutes b4 he was ready for the saw. IMO it is not a great a idea to shoot them in the beaner. It will work, but it is not the best choice for a lot of reasons IMO. IME the lungs will work, and it is just a matter of time and having some patience. It has not been my experience that turning them into swiss cheese helps to expedite things either. One slug thru the lungs and the thing is gonna meet its ancestors and be ready (well almost) for the George Foreman. It will just do it in his time and not yours. IME the neck shot (behind the ear and down, about 6" on each) works the best. As long as you break the neck that is. Learning the anatnomy is the key here IME. As far as shots at running bison goes I can't for the life of me ever taking this shot! Oh wait yeah I can think of one instance, and that would be as he is about 17 feet away and bearing down on me with intent to do bodily damage to me. IE kick my butt!!! This stuff is very simple, pop the neck and things go lights out real quick. Be it by a Swift or by a Rigby it is lights out each and every time! Shoot them in the lungs and it will take a bit of time (that is one big check cavity) You guys must be very bored to keep bickering about something as easy as this. Lastly for me it is about knowing the anatomy, and a good bullet in the neck. I really don't care if it is a 25/06 a 7/08 a 340 or a Rigby. It will do the work...period. Just my thoughts on a needlessly silly issue. Mark D | |||
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Mark, As was stated earlier, I think the argument here comes from a difference in perception as regards the species in general. Sure, it is needlessly silly to debate whether a Bison can be killed with something like a 7mm...clearly they can. The question is whether or not this is advisable under "uncontrolled" conditions. Clearly it is not. A 25-06 isn't going to break bone or reach the vitals on a fleeing animal presenting an odd angle. Yes, lots of different rounds (big and small) will break that atlas joint in the neck for sure... However, what calibre rifle do you want in your hands if you miss that particular shot and the animal is making for the woods in a "real deal" scenario? Further, even in "controlled" conditions it seems logical to me that big holes bleed more and will kill faster than small ones. Simple logic yields the conclusion that a bigger hole through the heart/lungs means a quicker and more humane death. Since this is the objective (or should be) of ethical hunters and presents a better image of hunters, it is what I choose. As I said above, if we don't police ourselves, someone else will and we likely won't like the result. Best, John | |||
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Roland You are correct. The shot that severed the brain stem did did have that effect it was the last shot I took. I never said that the bison continued on after that shot. The brain shot was the first shot I took. The bison turned and looked at me. It seemed to have no effect. I would not believe it if I had not seen it. The rancher was even surprised, he seen the hit. His response was damn why did'nt she go down.I was even more amazed when I seen the damage after the shot. You would think the shock of impact alone would have some kind of effect. These animals are amazing as to what they will take. | |||
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My question is simply this. Mr. Ethics is shooting at a fleeing animal. Why? Has he botched a shot. Why? Because he is policing himself and the anti hunters suggest a cannon to cleanly kill this hairy beast. Funny they'd suggest much of anything to kill this beautiful majestic animal, but they have. So our hero uses this cannon and misses the opportunity putting him into a completely new realm of unethical behaviour. Thank goodness he's got a cannon to start shooting this thing up the ass with as he flees the scene with a hole in his guts............ Please define ethical behaviour. Ask thirteen guys or gals and you'll get thirteen different definitions. My neighbor thinks shooting anything is unethical and doesn't know the difference between a Daisy Red Ryder and my Model 70. What really is ethical? I have in my safe a 30-06 and 338 win mag. I'm going after Bison. I use the 06 for everything and have supreme confidence in the rifle. The 338 shoots well but jammed the last time I used it. Is it unethical to take the 30-06 or the 338. My new 270 is itching to shoot a whitetail. It's unproven, but shoots pretty well. However I had to readjust the scope yesterday and hope it holds zero. Is it unethical to take for the season opener or just stupid. Should I shoot a Bull Elk in his prime, chase down pronghorn in the truck, plunk a bear off a pile of pastry, quit hunting whitetail on the neighbors grain............ Ethics is a slipery slope, and if my Dad chooses to hunt Bison with his 7MM Rem Mag and 160gr partitions give him enough credit to police himself. It can be done and done responsibly. No? Chuck | |||
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Chuck and Mark, very good posts... Varmint Guy (and Mark) described the classic "drop em in the tracks" shot. It's what's used to cull the buggers on a certain big ranch here locally that might have a couple of Bison... said assasin uses a 220 Swift. One shot, lights out. Heck, as a kid I saw enough cattle grassed with a 22lr to know animal's are flesh and blood, not the Disney caricature presented here. I'd also add, when anything is hit in the lungs the Creator has graciously bestowed a beautiful endorphine buzz. Those so hit that have lived to tell the tale have described it and pain isn't much if any part of the story. I maintain that too many commenting here have more experience with Elmer Keith whilst perched on the crapper than anything else... PS Chuck, your dissertation on the vagaries of ethic's should be inscribed in stone... it's that good. | |||
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The one that I shoot the best, come on harder questions. The only bison I have shot was killed with a .22 mag. It died on the spot. Good idea? Nope, in retrospect should have walked back to the truck and picked up the .223 that was there. Word to the wise based on this experience: if killing a Bison that your 10 year old has named and said 10 year old is standing next to you wanting you to call a vet, wait........ | |||
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Brad, I read a lot of the post and you took quite a beating here. I am with you on this one. They are not the majority but a lot of the guys with the oversize guns have egos to match and there is no point wasting your time with them. When the lungs fill up with blood it doesn't matter what the thing is shot with. | |||
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Most farmers I know that raise a bison or two only have a couple of guns and I,m sure they aren't bigger then a 30-06. The people that say a 7-08 won't kill a horned animal in north america are full of bullshit. Bigger isn't always better. I was always told that the bullet size doesn't matter. It's where you put the bullet. Guess what their right. For the last 10 years I've been using a 7-08 due to a shoulder injury. I'd shoot anything except for the brown bears in North America with it. Bullets aren't magic but where you put them can have magical results. When there's lead in the air, there's hope!!!! | |||
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All this bison talk got me to thinking--an infrequent deal. I have never seen a wild one. Been limited to those in zoos and parks. Maybe I don't know what to look for. Not sure if their poop is a huge splatter like a cows or maybe a smaller cluster? I lived about 48 miles or so South of what was the largest North American herd of them(Wichita Mountains Wildlife refuge near Lawton Oklahoma)Even that close,we had no wild ones roaming around---nothing to sing about. I read that it was guessed that before Europeans, there were 50-100 million of them. Texas has 267,339 square miles and if there were 100million and they were evenly spread in the states that would be 7.481 per square mile and yet I have never seen one. Why? Pretty simple,most were killed off before I came along. They werent killed off with any of the modern stuff listed here. Even the 30-06 had not came along yet and it would be a super duper magnum deluxe compared to what did kill them off. Have they became harder to kill? I doubt it. In in 1915 when the 250-3000 came out the 3000 fps velocity was such an accomplishment they used it as part of it's name. Certainly no big deal anymore. So any of the various stuff listed here was light years ahead of what killed them off and deprived me of seeing one in the wild. I would think a well placed shot from todays guns would be more effective than what killed them off. So what would I use? Who cares? I already said i don't know shit about them. But I can assure you my buffalo protection gun is an air rifle and I never get worried about being attacked by one and it not being sufficient. | |||
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I'm all for using a big enough calibre for the job, and I own (and love) a number of big bore rifles, but... I have killed about (I think I may be forgetting one) 9 bison so far... - 2 were with a 375 H&H - 4 were with a crossbow - 3 were with a 6.5 Gibbs and 140gr Sierra BTs None were shot in the head, all but one was shot cleanly through the heart with a slightly quartering away shot. Only one involved multiple shots. That happened to be one of the 375 H&H ones...but it only needed the first one. All them were dead in under a minute. Granted, most of these were on my Dad's bison ranch and were not "hunted", but they are not exactly tame and take the same amount of killing as any other bison on the planet. And none of the situations were what I consider "controlled"...ie. they weren't point blank, in a corral/pen, etc. They were in the pasture, nervous, moving around each other, etc. I have also watched 3 other bison killed with compound bows and another 3 killed with rifles...a 30/06, a 7mm Mauser and a 7mm Rem Mag. Same conditions as I describe above. The only one of those that required multiple shots was the 7mm Mauser, and only because the guy was a "shaky" shot. The moral of my story: If you are very judicious in your shot selection, you don't need much to kill a bison very CLEANLY. Now, that does not mean that I would recommend that to everyone. If you are not capable of surgical(ish) precision when shooting under pressure, bigger is always better. For bison I would normally recommend .338 and up, to be on the safe side. But if you qualify as a solid and precise marksman, and have the patience and self control to wait for the right opportunity, you needn't arm yourself with a cannon for Bison. My Dad tells some interesting stories of him and other bison owners, slaughtering bulls in corrals. He has seen them take a half dozen shots in the head with a 458 Win Mag, because the guy pulling the trigger didn't know exactly where the brain was. My Dad missed the brain with his 8mm Rem Mag on a bull one time too...apparently it dropped, then got up a started busting the corral apart...had to hit it again to drop it for good. I don't advise headshots as a general rule..the brain is futher back than most people realize. FWIW, Canuck | |||
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Canuck, This is an interesting post, question, if I understand real well on a broadside presentation, if you go for the brain the shot should be taken just underneath the horn, and the animal facing you aim just underneath the horn in the middle of the head, correct? Thank you, Roland | |||
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Roland, On a side on shot, with their muzzle pointing down as usual, we usually shoot between the horn base and the ear. On a frontal shot, shoot between the horn bases and up a hair. The horns on a big bull usually obscure the brain on a side on shot, unless it is perfectly broadside. Their brain is about the size of a big orange. With that shaggy mop of hair on their head and the long hair on the sides, it can be really tough to figure out where the brain is in all that skull. I don't recommend it at all. Cheers, Canuck | |||
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Canuck, Thank you for the info. Roland | |||
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No prob. To re-iterate, however, I really don't recommend shooting for the brain. If one MUST shoot at the head, the base of the skull/neck (atlas joint) is a MUCH better choice. I shoot preferentially for the heart. They die very quickly with a hole in the pumper, and if you angle the shot right you don't waste any meat either. Cheers, Canuck | |||
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4 Bison so far for me. 1st-375 H&H 2nd-257 Wby 3rd and 4th 300 Wby The 1st three required one shot--all through the neck behind the ear. The last took two 165 grain X bullets through the lungs....still stood and staired at me and I finished him off with a neck shot. | |||
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I hope I don't get into trouble resurecting an old topic but here goes. In the old days buffalo were killed by running a horse next to the buffalo firing arrows into him until he dropped, cap and ball pistols, muzzleloaders and spears were also used from a running horse. Buffalo were also run off cliffs. Sometimes we tend to make these endeavors much too complex. It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance | |||
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I gotta go with the majority. I, admittedly, have never hunted bison, but I'd damn sure not bring my 45 Colt carbine or even my 309 JDJ when I have a 375/284 or my 416 Rem Mag. I've taken moose with the 2 larger calibers and wouldn't think of using the smaller ones. It's just not fair to the animal. My 2 cents' worth. BTW, Chuck, that's a nice animal. You've got bigger cajones than I. Congrats "It's like killing roaches - you have to kill 'em all, otherwise what's the use?" Charles Bronson | |||
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