http://bozemandailychronicle.com/articles/2005/11/16/news/01bisonhunt.txt

Here's the story. Of course it was a media circus. I believe the Butte paper reported that one of the anti hunting groups told the story that it took 45 minutes for the bison to die. Hardly, not with an 06 shot to the head.

quote:

it took 45 minutes for the bison to die.

Sierra matchkings again?

MontMike: Thanks for the link!
Neat thing the young Hunter was the first to be successful in this new venture.
Its a shame that the length of time it took the Bison to die and the number and local of the directed shots dominate the story.
Its just politics shaded and jaded newspaper style and another reason I have NEVER purchased a newspaper in the last 37 years!
Congrats to the young Hunter anyway!
I hope he and his family enjoy the wonderful and healthy Buffalo meat!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I can believe it took a while for the bison to die. I did a ranch meat hunt last winter. I seen a cow take a 44 mag 250 grain partition to the head from about fifty yards. It turned and looked at us. We found out later that the bullet hit just in front of the ear and was a complete pass through. The cow went another four hundred plus yards before going down. After two 7mm08 to the lungs and a 358 to the head. The second cow took a 44 through the lungs and five 7mm08 160 grain accubonds to the head all but the 44 and 1 7mm were complete pass throughs. They have a small brain and a lot of non vital areas in the head. But you tend to go "Oh shit" when you hit an 800 lb critter any where in the head with any larger centerfire round and it just looks at you. And you are hiding behind a haybale fifty yards a way. A very uneasy feeling crepts in. Both cows went nearly an hour from the intial shot. The third cow went down quick but only after five 30 06 to the head. They are an extremely tough animal most of the time. The rancher though claims to have dropped them with 17 remington though. But he also had bulls go many hours and miles after taking a 45 70 to the head and having a large portion of the skull and brain destroyed.

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areas in the head. But you tend to go "Oh shit" when you hit an 800 lb critter any where in the head with any larger centerfire round and it just looks at you. And you are hiding

I am at a loss why you would shoot such an animal in the head at all, or why you would use such a puny caliber (7mm 08). The brain is buried in that mass of skull with so much hair, how do you really pinpoint the brain?

I shot a 2K lb bull w/ a 416RM, 400 gr Nosler Partitions, lung/heart and it was 4 seconds to end of story. Two feet of lung hanging out of the exit hole.

Use enough gun (diameter) and shot placement.

I was told that a 270 with 130 grain or better would be fine by some who is experienced with these animals. I was hunting for meat and a head shot is usually a quick kill and offers very fast bleed out ensuring quality meat. The head shot is also the higher percentage instant kill shot again based on the experience of someone who has seen hundreds of bison shot. If you do not put the animal down immediatly you have to worry aboout the other bison harresing them and causing them to go much further than they would other wise. I placed the bullet exactly where I should just below the ear twice and had complete pentration. One bullet went through the brain the other destroyed the brain stem. I do not know how much more exact you can be or what more you can ask for as far as bullet performance goes. As far as the caliber choice I may have been a bit undergunned but that was based on the adviced of someone who was shot hundreds of bison. I also don't have the money to buy such a useless,for me,gun such as a 416. I don't think something that large is needed for a 150 pound whitetail which is all I can every hope to shoot on a regular basis.I like to get as much use out of a single gun as possible.With handloading the 7mm08 will handle anything in north americam except the big bears.I will use a larger caliber in the future. I bought a 350 remington mag for future bison harvests and I will continue to take head shots. I know the 7mm08 is plenty. The lung shot and two of the headshots were without a doubt fatal.The lungs were jelly. Once adrenilane kicks in from the herd pushing the wounded one they just don't go down. But for the animals sake I want something that will deliver a little more shock value and take the animal down and be able to quickly administer a kill shot if needed before the herd closes in begins to push the wounded one and prevents a clear shot. If I was hunting a single animal like I suspect you were and did not have the herd to worry about I would have taken a heart lung shot. I know this would have been fatal. The animal would have just layed down and died.I know people who have used the 7mm08 very succesfully on large elk out to 200 yards. So from 50 yards on a small bison I see no difference.

quote:

who have used the 7mm08 very succesfully on large elk out to 200 yards. So from 50 yards on a small bison I see no difference.

Well, I'm no expert and your logic seems reasonable. I was just surprised and hadn't heard that before. If it works for you, then great.

OK...taking a light calibre out for Bison is just not right. Turning a noble animal needlessly into swiss cheese is not excused by the fact that you consider the .416 a "useless" round when hunting elsewhere. Note that I have taken more than a few whitetail with my .416 rem as well and it works just fine with minimal meat damage. I don't know you 7mm but I can also tell you that your anatomy knowledge here leaves a bit to be desired. You are NOT shooting for the brain on bison. You are rather shooting for the base of the skull where it joins the spine. Remember that the skull itself is a bit of a trophy here as well. You are supposed to be shooting a couple inches below and to the rear of the horn base. Bison can definitely take a while to drop with a heart lung shot (nowhere near the time described in the article) but if PROPERLY hit in the CNS (with a proper calibre) it is all over instantly. If you are going to hunt, might I suggest politely that you please do it right by understanding the limitations of your rifle and understanding the unique anatomical characteristics of the game in question. As an aside, my black bear outfitter strongly discourages people using anything smaller than a 30-06 as he has seen way to many bears wounded and lost with the likes of the 7mm or less. I have tracked a few of these bears shot by others under these circumstances and let me assure you that it's no fun in the dark! Frankly, I decided the .416 was a bit light for Bison two years ago and have upped the octane a bit to 8-bore.

Best Regards,

John

Utter nonsense... the 7-08 is a well established cartridge here in MT that has enough power to cleanly kill anything in the state including Bison. Those boys are a lot like Moose in that they don't know they are dead when lethally hit. Me, I'd slip one behind the shoulder, punching the lungs and let him figure out he's dead however long that takes...

I'm glad to see FWP and the Guv didn't cave on this "hunt."

quote:

Originally posted by Brad:
the 7-08 ... has enough power to cleanly kill anything in the state including Bison.

Power to kill? Yes. Cleanly? I don't think so.

JMHO,

John

Makes you wonder how the Indians did the trick with bows and arrows or how Quigley did it with a .45-70 Sharps.

Bigger is better? Bull Elk or (Bison) The 7-08mm is enough gun. I've shot one enough with one to know. The 7mm-08 is a good round, but the reason to hunt with one is the great little guns they make for that round. I tend to carry a rifle around alot. Alot more then I shoot it. I've carried a 7-08 when out west and the animals I've shot fell down dead same as the Northern whitetails. It's more gun then anything that was shot in the 19th century period!and you know what happened to the bison then. If you want carry a large bore, But a poorly placed shot with anything will result in a wounded animal. If the animal doesn't go right down shoot it again and keep shooting it till it does. Close the gap and finish it off. I've seen more then a few one shot kill people shoot an animal and wait for it to die. why? finish it off and be done with it. A taxidermist can fix a bullet hole.

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Power to kill? Yes Cleanly? I don't think so.

JMHO,

John

"JMHO" based on what?

Chuck

I am not going to get into a pissing contest about this...it's simply not worth my time. However, I believe in a simple rule that says "use a rifle appropriate to the game". It doesn't take a genius to reach the conclusion that large animals will bleed more and fall faster when hit with large bullets. Baker knew this in the 19th Century. Arguing that the 7mm is appropriate for Bison is like arguing that a .308 win is fine for Cape Buffalo. The truth is that the .308 MAY kill a Cape Buffalo cleanly and plenty of them have been taken with a .308 but that doesn't make it IDEAL for the job or even a "good idea" for that matter. The reality is that it DOES matter how people perceive hunting. If "hunters" go out and turn animals into pin cushions needlessly, it doesn't reflect well on those of us who don't.

Best Regards,

John

Any animal will die with a bullet through its lungs...EVENTUALLY. I intensely dislike this "eventually" scenario, and the advice above about using a rifle suited to the game is absolutely correct.

This subject, bison shooting, is one case where I DO KNOW from personal experience. Back in the 1970s, we residents of Canada's Northwest Territories could hunt Wood Bison just for the $25 price of a tag, and we, family and friends, made good use of the privilege, killing many Bison over a number of years. Wood Bison are a bit heavier than plains bison, and generally somewhat darker in color.

Those Bison were FREE-RANGING on unlimited amounts of ground around Wood Buffalo National Park, and they did not live on open prairies, but rather in HEAVY BUSHLAND. This meant that shooting one with a minor-caliber rifle and waiting for the critter to EVENTUALLY die was a luxury that was not practical, nor sportsmanlike. Wounded buffs, even fatally wounded, often escaped into trackless bush and were lost. I know people who used all sorts of too-light calibers, and ended-up losing hard-hit animals. A buffalo can travel astonishing distances with fatal wounds.

What is needed for these animals is a rifle that will accomplish what LIGHTER calibers can do on LIGHTER animals, namely: create MAJOR destruction and break MAJOR bones. On extensive personal experience, a "bison rifle" (for me) starts with a .338 Winchester and 250-grain Partitions, and ends in the "African" category of rifles. The African end is where I fetched up, and my success on Wood Bison will speak for itself. With my Cogswell & Harrison .404 Jeffery and handloaded 400-grain Barnes Original bullets (heavy .049" copper-tubing jacket), numerous buffalo were killed very cleanly with one or two rounds at ranges extending from fifteen yards to 200 yards, and the heaviest bones were no obstacle to such a bullet. I later obtained a .416 Rigby for the same job, mostly just because I like Ruger #1 rifles....the .404 was working perfectly.

I once saw a friend fire FOUR .30-06 220-grain softpoints into the forehead of a badly-wounded (almost immobile) big bull from less than twenty yards. At each shot, his knees buckled a bit and then he straightened up and made a short charge. He was finally killed with a .30-06 220 from the SIDE of his head at close range. Skinning out the head, we found shallow grooves in the skull's frontal plate where the bullets had turned and apparently exited to the air. Those bullets were trying to get through about six inches of densely-matted hair, and two inches of hard hide before reaching bone, and they weren't up to it.

The biggest bull I ever took yielded well-over 1500 pounds of meat IN THE FREEZER (not de-boned, however). He was shot broadside through the heart with the .404 from 190 yards, and turned partially-away to run. The second round took him at the back of the near ribcage, ranged forward through the lungs, and EXITED through the far shoulder after breaking it...about four feet of penetration. That put him down, but I still needed to fire a coup de grace when I got up to him. THAT is the rifle performance one needs on massive animals!!!!

Taking deer rifles after such animals is unfair and unsportsmanlike, because the animals deserve nothing less than a quick death. A hunter unwilling to meet the needs of such game should leave the hunt to those who WILL bring a capable instrument to the task.

John, I've seen Bison killed with 338's 375's and the lowly 7mm rem mag. The 7mm stoked with 160gr Nosler partitions required the least amount of shots (1) and killed with the least amount of fuss. Why, cause the guy behind the but of the gun (my Dad) put the bullet where it belonged IE the top of the heart.

The American Bison is no Cape Buffalo, and doesnt require an Elephant gun to kill.

"JMHO"

Chuck

You might be surprised to discover the small cartridges that the inuit use to kill bison in the NWT of northern Canada.I talked to one inuit that claimed that he used a 243 and made a habit of shooting one of the front knees.Apparently with so much weight on the front end the bison can't get up with a broken front leg which allows the inuit to approach the bison and finish it with a shot to the head.I wasn't there to see it done but that is what the man claimed.

Chuck,

Please read the post just above yours as I think it speaks volumes. I believe it to be just plain irresponsible to use a calibre and bullet combination that will not reach the vitals of one's chosen quarry from any angle. I try to conform to this ideal (it has caused the purchase and sale of more than one rifle for me)and it's just my opinion. As an aside, I never said that Bison WERE Cape Buffalo. To be blunt, let me say that just because a calibre CAN kill a particular animal under ideal circumstances doesn't mean that it becomes the ideal or even an acceptable choice for the job.

Best,

John

I'm basing my lowly opinion on watching Bison Die. I'll also say, that if you shoot a Bison above the bottom third of the Body, lungs or not, he's going to soak up a pile of lead.

Chuck

I'll also put any amount of money you want on Brad and the 7-08 vs. the Almighty Bison. Any amount!

Chuck

Stubblejumper, that is utter bullcrap.

For one thing, there are NO INUIT living in the area inhabited by the bison in the NWT. They are a people of the high Arctic, mostly sea-based and hunters of caribou and sea mammals. There are INDIANS in the Wood Buffalo area, which is along the southern edge of the NWT, and they hunt bison on a regular basis. I would caution against adopting almost anything the natives use for hunting purposes, either equipment or technique. I've seen more horrendous abuses committed against wildlife by natives than by any other group, and remember I LIVED THERE for over 35 years.

I can also assure you that a bison can travel on three legs at just about the same speed as on four, and I've seen THAT, too.

The natives in the Wood Bison range have been known to shoot them with .22 rifles just to make them move off the roads and trails. I've found .22 rimfire bullets in the hides of several bison we killed, so that is NOT fiction. Seems like the .22 usually won't penetrate the hide, so it must feel like a big insect bite when they hit.

The Inuit or "Eskimo" typically hunt everything with their seal rifles, which are most-commomnly a .223 or similar caliber. I have a photo of seven polar-bear hides on a clothesline on the shore of Coronation Gulf (Arctic Ocean)...all those bears were taken with the .223, with the help of a dozen dogs bringing the bears to bay. It STILL doesn't make a .223 a bear rifle!

No, it doesn't take an "elephant gun" to kill a bison, but it does a hell of a lot better job than a deer rifle or varminter! I err to the positive side, and it works and works well. I also mentioned that "my" bison rifles start with the .338. I've used it, and it too works well. The main thing is to use something with ability to penetrate deeply and break big bones en route, and this means substantial bullet weight and stiff bullet construction which retains weight while still expanding.

Shooting a bison once and "waiting as long as it takes" for it to die is despicable behavior.

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I believe it to be just plain irresponsible to use a calibre and bullet combination that will not reach the vitals of one's chosen quarry from any angle.

John, I've got a news flash... shooting bison out in the open is nothing like hunting elk or other big game in the timber. You pick your shot and punch the lungs... for cripes sake there's nothing supernatural about bison... poke the lungs and they'll tip over, period! I guarantee you a 160 Partition (or whatever) from a 7-08 wil get both lungs and might just exit...

Chuck, that's not a bet, that's stealing

What did I start here. I simple told my experience. I never said it is the only way to kill a bison or recommended to do what I did.Nor did I want this to turn into a debate on caliber selection. How many years do we have to debate caliber selction before we all realize that we will never agree. I made my choice of rifle based on advice of someone who should know what it takes to routinely kill a bison quick. I would like to remind everyone that I was shooting a small meat cow that was about 800 pounds. I also believe that any rifle you hunt with should be one you are comfortable and confident in using. My model 7 in 708 is such a rifle I have well over five hundred rounds through this gun and only about 20 were used on game. I would not be able to shoot a larger caliber rifle as much and would not achieve this level of confidence. I would rather hit any animal in the right place with a small caliber than in the wrong place with a large caliber. I wish people would stop focusing on caliber and more on shot placement. I did my best in the shot placement department. But as like a lot of hunters things don't always go as planned. I was confident in my rifle and ability and was able to continue shooting to finish the job. I have seen more people with large caliber rifles that don't shoot enough and then when the pressure is on they just cannot get the job done.I have seen hunters who hit a whitetail with a 300 RUM three times before the deer dropped If you shoot a large caliber enough to be able to stay focused when things don't go as planned more power to you. I would rather have a rifle in my hands that I know I can get the job done with. Not get rattled and begin to worry about recoil or have the thought in my head that the animal should have dropped because I nailed it with some super magnum. Hunting is much more mental than a lot of people think. So put the bullet in the right spot and shot a rifle that you have faith in so if things do go wrong you will stay focused. That will take you a lot farther than some super magnum.

I heard the animal rights guys went to McDonalds for a burger after the protest.

If I bison hunted, I'd take the largest rifle I own, the 300 RUM, and I'd stuff it with a 220. I'm going out on a limb here but I think it would cleanly kill a bison.

quote:

I guarantee you a 160 Partition (or whatever) from a 7-08 wil get both lungs and might just exit...

I know it will. I used 160 grain accubonds. I hade two complete pass throughs on lung shots one was a quatering away shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Brad:
John, I've got a news flash... shooting bison out in the open is nothing like hunting elk or other big game in the timber. You pick your shot and punch the lungs... for cripes sake there's nothing supernatural about bison... poke the lungs and they'll tip over, period! I guarantee you a 160 Partition (or whatever) from a 7-08 wil get both lungs and might just exit...

Again, with a round like this, yes the animal will die...EVENTUALLY. Waiting around for this to happen may be fine on a ranch somewhere (though I don't see it as particularly ethical) but is a VERY bad plan in the wild as Bren and I have seen. These bison RUN and if they get to the thick woods you may never see them again. If you do, you can bet that meat and hide recovery is going to be a royal pain. Further, consider the above mentioned animal rights fruitloops. Sure, there is no way it took 45 minutes for that animal to die but still...every shot taken and every minute the animal suffered made hunters as a group look worse. A video of some kid turning a bison into a voodoo doll with 7mm or .30 calibre pins, even over just a few minutes, while it struggles to stand is just bad PR and I resent it as a hunter. If the kid in the video had been using a proper rifle (.338 or larger), proper bullets, and hit the animal square in the atlas joint that would have been all she wrote. The Bison would have been most humanely dispatched and the image of me or you as hunters would not have been at all tarnished.

Best Regards,

John

45 minutes to die? A wolf takes hours to kill one. Hamstrung, then torn to shreds only to be partially eaten while still alive.

John, you are predisposed toward's medium and large bores and see the world of hunting through those colored glasses, period.

I'd also add if you can't take a bison cleanly with a 7-08 you need to work on your shooting skills, not jump up in caliber.

All the heavy handed moral pontification is pure bull shit.

Well, like most of the posters here, I have never actually shot a Bison although my hunting partner has and several others I know also have. The common thread in their reports about their experiences was how tough these animals are and how they found that rifles like the .375H&H worked better than smaller ones. Who am I to argue withh guys who have actually done what they are talking about?

This thread reminds me of the frequent and oftimes acrimonious debates concerning Grizzlies and apprppriate calibers for them. Often, those with the least actual bush experience are the most strident and inflexible in their opinions; after 40+ years of very active outdoor life in bear country, I am not quite so certain and tend to carry a large rifle which I feel most comfortable with.

I find the posts by "Bren" to be the most objective, experience based comments on this matter and I prefer to use a .338-250 NP whenever ANY heavy game is involved, or, for deer, etc. hunting in active Grizzly areas. If, someone wants to use a smallbore, wtf, it's their ass, not mine, on the line.

quote:

Originally posted by kudu56:
45 minutes to die? A wolf takes hours to kill one. Hamstrung, then torn to shreds only to be partially eaten while still alive.

I actually sent a very polite email to the "Buffalo Field Campaign" mentioning just this fact. My suggestion to "save the bison" from such amazing cruely was wolf hunting. Wonder how they will like that.

Brad,

Regarding the "moral pontificating"...it is that sort of "bull shit" that preserves hunting for future generations. If we don't police ourselves, someone else will and we WON'T like the results. Yes, I am biased toward large calibres because I like to learn from others' rather than my own mistakes. As I said before, Baker had it figured out that a large animal requires a large bullet in the mid 19th century. The laws of physics are the same today as they were then.

Kutenay,

AMEN to everything you wrote except the statement that "it's their ass, not mine". It seems to me that, whether we like it or not, hunting is subject to the court of public opinion. It therefore becomes in OUR best interests to hunt in such a way that minimizes the ammunition against us in that court. Putting animals down quickly and with appropriate weaponry does this as far as I'm concerned...using deer rifles on a 2200 pound beast does not.

Best,

John

To me, you hunt w/ a caliber/bullet for the worst case situation. I find it difficult for a hunting ed. inst. to advocate a 06 w/ a light bullet for such heavy animal. Yes he took a head shot but what if he couldn't have? The animal is either dead or not, I can see a finisher to the spine but 4-5, what's up with that? I wasn't there but from the story, doesn't sound like it went well.
As to the small bore stuff, I get a bit tired hearing about Eskimos do this or my grandpappy used to do that. We're talking about putting an animal down as quickly & humanely as possible. Use enough gun & the right bullets for the game. Practice enough to make your shots from any reasonable angle & distance. More animals are probably lost to head & neck shots than any other, very risky.

quote:

Regarding the "moral pontificating"...it is that sort of "bull shit" that preserves hunting for future generations. If we don't police ourselves, someone else will and we WON'T like the results. Yes, I am biased toward large calibres because I like to learn from others' rather than my own mistakes. As I said before, Baker had it figured out that a large animal requires a large bullet in the mid 19th century. The laws of physics are the same today as they were then.

John, you really need to get more personal experience before suggesting you know what the heck you're talking about.

These bison out of the park are shot up close and personal standing in the open and broadside.

Shooting a bison in the head is, IMO, a bad idea but if you think a 338 (or whatever) slipped behind the shoulder through the ribs and into the lungs is any more lethal than a 7-08 placed likewise than you have to be one of the most naive guys around.

Gents;

I am NOT trying to hold myself up as perfect here. The lessons I learned were not easily acquired. The first time I hunted bison with the .404 was very shortly after I got the rifle, and before I had put together the necessary loading tools (much more difficullt in 1971 than now, and needing Berdan primers and decapper with the brass available). The ONLY ammo available was Kynoch 400-grain steel-jacketed SOLIDS....truly an "African load" intended for ...guess what...elephant, rhino, etc.

There was, and probably still is, a regulation against non-expanding bullets for NWT big game, and for good reason. On asking a game warden about it before the hunt, he said it was aimed at guys wanting to use military FMJ in their .303s etc, and he wasn't going to hassle me with my .404. He should have! I came up on a cow bison on the fringes of a herd of maybe 150 animals, and put SEVEN solids through her chest area from 150 yards and less. Even in the fading light of evening, I could see the blood all over the chest area and dripping into the grass. Firing from prone, the hits were accurate and impacts were clearly heard. Running out of light, I tried to move closer and she spooked into the heavy bush a few yards away...and became the ONLY big game animal I ever lost in decades of hunting.

The .338/250 mentioned likely would have done a much better job. However, once the Barnes softpoints were obtained, the rifle became certain death on the bison, and extremely effective.

I'm not interested in heart-lung shots on any animals, and this is the main reason I use big rifles on large game. I shoot for shoulders, for heavy bones, and I want my bullet to be able to reach the shoulder and break it from practical angles (not up-the-bum or similar extremes, but at least from quartering-away presentations), and I want an exit wound, too. The heart shot on my biggest bull was a MISS from where I wanted the bullet, but I was using the original express sights from almost 200 yards and shooting from kneeling in high grass, so the result wasn't all that bad. The vital zone is huge, and it worked OK. The second round, angled through the far shoulder as described, was perfect for my purposes.

Bullet placement is critical in any game shooting, and a poor hit with a .404 is still a poor hit. I once fired at a bison running across my front at only thirty yards, and just as I fired the rifle hung up in the swing against a willow branch. The animal never slowed in the slightest, but the near hind leg did a COMPLETE CIRCLE as she vanished into the bush. Totally broken, just above the big "elbow"(?) joint. Elevation was perfect, but the bullet landed about five FEET behind where it was intended to land. She lay down about 100 yards in, and I killed her in that bed about ten minutes later, thank God.

The point here, though, is that on BIG animals, a good big rifle will work better than a good little rifle.

Heavy handed bullshit, is it? You select your morals, and I'll select mine. If one doesn't want opinions, then don't post your activities where others can read about them.

I am not a wolf, and I've met a lot of them. I've WATCHED wolves kill caribou, outside the range of my rifle, and I will not compare the clean kills I strive for, with the ancient and UGLY natural deaths inflicted by such critters. I have killed every damned one that I could get a reasonable shot at. The bunny huggers love to praise the wolf as a noble natural predator in a Disney-esque role, taking only what he needs to survive...sorta like an "aboriginal" hunter, in their books. Ha! Wolves WILL kill for the obvious pure fun of it, and they DO kill more than they need, given the opportunity, and the animals killed sometimes DO go to waste. Again, I've seen it.

The .300 RUM will certainly kill bison. I watched a friend kill one stone-dead in its tracks with a .308 Norma Magnum and 180 Nosler Partitions, but spine hits will do that with a lot of rifles. Again, I play the odds, and the odds say that a big rifle and stiffly-built heavy bullet will do a better job against big animals. For the .300 RUM, the 220-grain is a sterling idea. I should mention that my hunting rifles range from a M1903 Mannlicher-Schoenauer 6.5x54 up to the aforementioned .404, .416, and .45-70, and include quite a few others in-between these extremes.

Shooting bison is different, that's all.

quote:

I'm not interested in heart-lung shots on any aniamls, and this is the main reason I use big rifles. I shoot for shoulders, for BIG bones, and I want my bullet to be able to reach the shoulder and break it from practical angles (not up-the-bum or similar extremes, but at least from quartering-away presentations), and I want an exit wound, too.

Hey Huckleberry, this thread is about shooting Bison in Montana... this is not a "hunt", it's a "shoot" for meat so blowing perfectly good shoulders apart is stupid (hey, it might even be an unethical WASTE OF MEAT).

quote:

Bullet placement is critical in any game shooting, and a poor hit with a .404 is still a poor hit. I once fired at a bison running across my front at only thirty yards, and just as I fired the rifle hung up in the swing against a willow branch. The animal never slowed in the slightest, but the near hind leg did a COMPLETE CIRCLE as she vanished into the bush. Totally broken, just above the big "elbow"(?) joint.

Wow, all the moral pontification and we're shooting at running game... many of us consider shooting runnig game THE SINGLE MOST UNETHICAL act a hunter can commit.

quote:

The point here, though, is that on BIG animals, a good big rifle will work better than a good little rifle.

Wow, and you expect us to buy ANY argument you have after all the above documented piss poor shooting and piss poor bullet selection?

quote:

Heavy handed bullshit, is it? You select your morals, and I'll select mine. If one doesn't want opinions, then don't post your activities where others can read about them.

LOL, never shoot a man that's just hung himslef and is too ignorant to know it...

quote:

For one thing, there are NO INUIT living in the area inhabited by the bison in the NWT. They are a people of the high Arctic, mostly sea-based and hunters of caribou and sea mammals. There are INDIANS in the Wood Buffalo area, which is along the southern edge of the NWT, and they hunt bison on a regular basis

So the man is an indian and not an inuit.It doesn't change the fact that he uses the same 243win for caribou and bison.Apparently as even you said,these people make a habit of using small cartridges to kill large game.I am not saying that it is humane to do so,I am just saying that it is done.

A couple observations:

1. Bigger is always better, provided that you can handle the recoil enough to be almost as accurate as when shooting a smaller bore. Wild Bison are huge animals usually hunted in thick cover and open bogs. The larger and longer the wound channel, the better. The more accurately placed shots (point two below) you get in the better. If you get lucky, you might catch some crossing lake/bog ice or other natural or man-made (pipelines, forestry cuts) openings. You especially don't want them to make it to the thick stuff where getting them out will be a greater challenge.

2. Shot placement will always remain key, no matter what you are shooting. I suspect, as Chuck elluded to, that many first-time bison hunters are too unfamiliar with their quarry's anatomy and tend to shoot too high or too far back. If that happens, yes they can soak up a lot of lead. I have seen this first-hand with Moose and African Plains Game hunters shooting for the 'hump' or shooting for the lungs and hitting too far back. Either shoot to break significant bone (shoulder and/or spine) or else shoot for the top of the heart/lungs and HIT it. I also believe that if it is still standing, an extra shot doesn't hurt anything, except the animal If you are going to brain an animal- know where the brain is from all angles and have a bullet that will get you there! I brain shoot a lot of Caribou for meat. I do this because 1. I know where the brain is 2. I am 100% confident that my bullet will get there. You'd be surprised at how few people have either of these basic skill yet still attempt brain shots. To complicate matters, a Bison's brain is harder to locate and reach from certain angles with a bullet.

Maybe if Bison weren't almost exclusively shot in a controlled environment and actually HUNTED now and again, people would have a bit more respect for the species than is being show here.

Best Regards,

John

quote:

Maybe if Bison weren't almost exclusively shot in a controlled environment and actually HUNTED now and again, people would have a bit more respect for the species than is being show here.

I understand what you are saying.

Secondly, before this thread gets off the handle, I think some of the flak being sent Brad's way is undeserved.

quote:

Me, I'd slip one behind the shoulder, punching the lungs and let him figure out he's dead however long that takes...

I think that the "however long it takes", would be a matter of seconds with the shot placement that I am sure he can deliver. I will let him answer for himself though. Also, if you guys look at his "elk" post, he kept shooting until that big bad boy was down for the count- I think that he said it moved only 3 feet from its bed. I'm the same way, I've shot big game that I knew were dead on their feet, but placed a second or third one in there to put them down even quicker. No sense in having them stand around a few minutes or walk off into the brush if it can be avoided.

CL, my "however long it takes" is tongue and cheek! I can assure you it wouldn't be more than a matter of seconds til' said Bison keeled over.

I'm convined there are a lot of posers on the internet that can talk a good talk but are really lacking in meaningful field experience.

Anyway, on to better things...