I thought so

quote:

I'm convined there are a lot of posers on the internet that can talk a good talk but are really lacking in meaningful field experience.

I agree 100%.

Cheers,
CL

quote:

I'm not interested in heart-lung shots on any animals, and this is the main reason I use big rifles on large game. I shoot for shoulders, for heavy bones

OK, one more and I'm done... should have singled out this pearl of wisdom for special emphasis... WTF!!!!

Brad: Add this to your pile of knowledge regarding Buffalo kills.
I have seen about 8 Buffalo killt and all were one shot kills. The ranch I have been to three different times instructs the Buffalo Hunters to strike the creature with their bullets 3" behind its ear and 3" below the ear!
I filmed my friend Ross killing a large 3 1/2 year old Buffalo from 40 yards away using ONE shot from his 45 Long Colt pistol! That Buffalo fell so hard and fast that it seemed to bounce back up a little! DRT! Again I have the photos!
This behind the ear shot does not strike or ruin the skull and I am not sure of the circumference or the diameter of that "kill zone".
I have 2 friends that are now out of Buffalo meat and there will be Buffalo Hunts this winter (when the pelts are prime!). On those upcoming occassions I will inquire of the Buffalo rancher how big that behind the ear kill zone is.
That 45 long Colt pistol was firing a max load using the 260 gr. bullet as I recall! DRT!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VG, that's a great spot to poke but isn't truly a "head shot"... it's a spinal shot. Problem is, there's enough for these fellas to chew on regarding a plain lung shot ala 7-08 without confusing them with more ideas they're not capable of absorbing...

PS, just got a call about two bison in pickup's tied up on main street, Ennis... couple of wealthy, female move-ins were aghast at the spectacle... poor things must think beef grows under celophane at the supermarket .

Anyway, now I'm truly done... later!

I have found that a 338 Winchester Magnum is adequate to kill bison with one shot dropping them immediately at the point of impact. I have found that the Federal High Energy load with a 250 Nosler Partition bullet is preferable for 1,500 to 2,000 plus pound bison, with "standard" 210 grain Nosler Partition bullets sufficient for 800 to 1,000 pound bison.

I have also had excellent results with a 458 Winchester Magnum with either 400 Woodleigh Protected Point bullets (at 2,240 feet per second) or 450 grain Swift A-Frames (at 2,200 feet per second). These result in immediate kills.

Conversations with bison ranch operators repeatedly note that 45-70 and 7 MM Magnum-type rounds require ""5 shots and then just wait for one minute until they drop". This is simply not an acceptable result in my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
The ranch I have been to three different times instructs the Buffalo Hunters to strike the creature with their bullets 3" behind its ear and 3" below the ear!

Again I have the photos!

Yo, VarmintGuy, I've seen a couple videos where this is exactly what happened. High neck shots. But, YOU STILL HAVEN'T POSTED ANY PHOTOS OF YOUR MULIE!!

I find calling someone names such as "poser" on the internet because you disagree with them to be more a statement about the person doing this than the victim of such insulting and unwarranted behaviour. I have never even fired a 7/08, but, I bought my first 7x57 40 years ago and have shot, loaded for and hunted with several rifles in that caliber since then, I have three now.

I would not choose one of these for hunting large animals, but, maybe my field experience in over 40 years is not adequate to the question. I do strongly agree that we hunters must be sensitive to and cognizant of the non-hunting public's perception of us; my comment was concerning the risk factors involved in hunting large game and how individuals respond to that.

Anyway, the weekend is starting and I have to get ready to go shooting, have a good one, all.

Kutenay, you are a poser.

I use the word "posers" in a general way and in light of some of the comment's on this thread. Meanwhile, you've vicously slurred entire races of people in the most vile, bigoted and hateful way I've witnessed on any of these forums or in any personal cotact with anyone, anywhere. I'm speaking of your "kind" thought's about Pakistani's, Sikh's, Hindu's and other "undesirable" minorities (as you see them) in your country as expressed on 24hrcampfire.

I'm referencing hunting experience while you're slurring entire races of human beings... I'd suggest you pull the log out of your own eye before you think about the speck in mine.

From where I stand you're in the Death Valley of "high moral ground."

So much for your character...

Doc: I now have the enlargements and the 5x7's and the negatives!
I asked to day at the livery if they could print out my negatives into cyber pictures on a disc and they replied "yes" so I am closing in!
I need to have the whole roll loaded and its about 11 bucks which I can swing OR I could send a photo to you and you could scan it (or just look at it?) and post it for me!
I think I also owe you a prize for the great Antelope Harvest Hunt also. I am going to get on that as soon as Hunting season is over here in a week or so. People in!
Don in Colrado: Where do you aim with your 338 and the 250 gr. Noslers on the Buffalo to get the one shot kills?
Brad: Good point keep the debates to one topic at a time! I would love to have seen the womens faces! Any idea to the size of the spinal shot area - 5"x10" maybe?
I tell you what I saw in Bozeman a few years back was a pickup truck with a platform in the back for a LARGE Bobcat to walk back and forth on as the pickup went down and up main street!
The Bobcat was on a leash so it could manuever back and forth behind the cab and it was a traffic stopper to say the least!
More later - VarmintWife is calling!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I forgot you were waiting on the disc. I can wait. I don't have a scanner.

quote:

Originally posted by MontMike:
http://bozemandailychronicle.com/articles/2005/11/16/news/01bisonhunt.txt

Here's the story. Of course it was a media circus. I believe the Butte paper reported that one of the anti hunting groups told the story that it took 45 minutes for the bison to die. Hardly, not with an 06 shot to the head.

Now read this please:

GARDINER - It wasn't your average day in the field for a family of hunters from Belgrade.

It started early, before the electric colors of dawn had fled the snowy slopes of Electric Peak, in nearby Yellowstone National Park.
It wouldn't end for many long hours, and it put the family in the middle of a long-simmering dispute.

George "Buddy" Clement, 17, accompanied by his older brother, his mother and his father, George Sr., made the first kill in Montana's new bison hunt Tuesday morning.

He shot the big bull in the head and his father said later that it died immediately, though, as often happens with head shots, the animal's nerves and reflexes remained active for a while.

"The animal dropped like a stone, but it was kicking a little bit," George Clement said. "It was as clean a kill as I've seen in my life and I've hunted for 42 years."


It had been grazing with four other bulls in the Eagle Creek area, nearly a mile from the closest road, but in the middle of a lot of controversy.

After it fell, the other bison in the herd stuck close to the carcass.

"When they smell blood, they get a little squirrely," said Mark Anderson, a warden sergeant for the Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks.

Cattle sometimes act the same way.

The family tossed stones at the standing bison, anxious to begin field-dressing Buddy's kill. Once they moved a safe distance, Buddy shot his animal a couple more times, his father said, just to make sure it was dead.

Those shots were superfluous, said George Clement. He and his wife are both hunter education instructors.

"That first shot was an absolute killing shot," he said.

The protest group Buffalo Field Campaign portrayed the incident as inhumane, maintaining Buddy Clement had shot the animal either four or five times and that it took it 45 minutes to die.

"I hate to call anybody a liar, but they're just trying to blow things out of proportion," George Clement said Tuesday afternoon.

The animal had a large bullet hole in its head, about three inches below and slightly behind the eye. Buddy used a 30.06 rifle, with 165-grain bullets, and said he shot from 30 yards away.


Apparantly no one read the article...the Buffalo died instantly.

Actually I'm not sure this is a hunting issue...it's purely a meat hunt...and yes, I've even seen them dragged to the taxidermist too!!!

I have not shot a Bison,just an idea with calibers like 7mm08 would a FMJ bullet be a good choice???Head shots only.

I see no need every shot I put in the head was a complete pass through with the 160 grain accubond. If you did need to take a body shot those fmjs would be useless. Use a qaulity bullet that has controlled expansion at all velocities and you will be just fine on any sensible shot you would take. That applies to many animals other than bison as well.

First, let me say that it amazes me which people are willing to allow this debate to get personal. On one hand we have Bren who, with likely years of experience in country so wild to make Montana look comfortable and more than a few wild Bison to his credit, simply (and with comparative courtesy) states the virtues of .40 cal plus calibres on this species. On the other hand we have Brad who, living in Montana and perceiving this to be bison country, may have taken a few or even many tame or semi tame Bison with a 7mm stating the virtues of same. Only on the internet would the LATTER be the first to toss out the term "poser"! Note that I am NOT accusing Brad of being one here as even a meat "hunt" provides valuable ballistic information. However, there is always going to be someone with more experience than you, Brad (no matter how much time in the woods you spend). Just remember that it's much less costly to learn from their mistakes rather than your own. Really, I think what we have in this discussion is a general difference in perception regarding the species. In Bren's (and my own) mind, Bison are tough to kill and wary as hell living in country that can make recovery of a wounded animal difficult or impossible even after a few short minutes of waiting for "eventually" to arrive. In Brad's mind, no matter how poorly you shoot a 2200 pound Bison, he will die "eventually" and be recovered either because of a fence or because they have become accustomed to people trying to pet them from a motorhome window in Yellowstone. Brad's perception of reality is shared by the general public unfortunately and apparently also leads to behavior on the part of particular hunters that is counter to the interests of hunters in general.

Best Regards,

John

P.S. Nice Elk on the other thread, Brad!

quote:

First, let me say that it amazes me which people are willing to allow this debate to get personal. On one hand we have Bren who, with likely years of experience in country so wild to make Montana look comfortable and more than a few wild Bison to his credit, simply (and with comparative courtesy) states the virtues of .40 cal plus calibres on this species. On the other hand we have Brad who, living in Montana and perceiving this to be bison country, may have taken a few or even many tame or semi tame Bison with a 7mm stating the virtues of same. Only on the internet would the LATTER be the first to toss out the term "poser"! Note that I am NOT accusing Brad of being one here as even a meat "hunt" provides valuable ballistic information. However, there is always going to be someone with more experience than you, Brad (no matter how much time in the woods you spend). Just remember that it's much less costly to learn from their mistakes rather than your own. Really, I think what we have in this discussion is a general difference in perception regarding the species. In Bren's (and my own) mind, Bison are tough to kill and wary as hell living in country that can make recovery of a wounded animal difficult or impossible even after a few short minutes of waiting for "eventually" to arrive. In Brad's mind, no matter how poorly you shoot a 2200 pound Bison, he will die "eventually" and be recovered either because of a fence or because they have become accustomed to people trying to pet them from a motorhome window in Yellowstone. Brad's perception of reality is shared by the general public unfortunately and apparently also leads to behavior on the part of particular hunters that is counter to the interests of hunters in general.

Best Regards,

John

And then there is you who has no experience what so ever, yet adamantly defends a position. I'd say poser is a pretty good definition of who you and others here are. Pack whatever you want, but don't tell me you can't kill Bison with a 7MM 160 gr bullet. I've seen it done and it did the job quite handily. Go ahead argue with that, but in my book you're pissin up a rope.

In regards to grizzly. I've literally had grizzly's in the backyard in the house I grew up in. Yet there was no rifle that sported anything larger than 30 cal for bloody miles.

Chuck

HA! Isn't it amazing the assumptions people will make and the anger that will well up in them when it becomes obvious that they are just plain wrong? One more time, I think you CAN kill bison with a deer rifle, it just ain't a good idea and it makes you look foolish/cruel to non-hunters.

Best Regards,

John

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
but don't tell me you can't kill Bison with a 7MM 160 gr bullet. I've seen it done...

Chuck, if I was a true authority on everything I had "seen done" I'd be teaching nuclear physics at Harvard right now.

Best Regards,

John

All right, this will be my last response on this thread (collective sigh of relief, I know).

My input was intended to inform folks who might not know, what it is like to HUNT bison on their own terms and turf. Seems like I've mainly managed to start a ruckus for some strange reason.

Brad has taken particular offence and is not terribly polite about expressing it, but I will try to restrain myself in replying to his barbs.

"Wasting meat" on shoulder shots? Don't know much about rifles, hmmm???? Ever read Elmer Keith's writings about big rifles, big bullets, and "eating right up to the bullet hole"? Your dear little 7/08 will ruin more meat on a shoulder shot than my .404 will, I assure you. In many experienced folks' opinions, the shoulder shot is more desireable, even with conventional (non-big-bore) rifles, at least partly on the premise that it's better to lose a few pounds of meat than an entire animal. I agree, and if you have the right tools, you will NOT lose much at all.

Shooting running game? Maybe YOU can't hit a 30" moving target at ninety feet, but I can, and have done it a number of times on bison. FACT: wild bison RUN when spooked at close range, but they are also big animals and easy to hit at short distances. On the ONE day I mentioned to illustrate that poor hits are still poor hits, even with big rifles, Mr. Murphy was in attendance. You wanna tell us that you have NEVER, not EVER, had a screw-up in the field???

Since you clearly can't understand what I meant by saying I don't aim for heart/lung hits, and even though I described the reasoning at least once already, let me spell it out. If the animal is quartering away from the rifle, I aim for the FAR SHOULDER, to break big bones. Guess what??? On the way to that far shoulder, the bullet cuts a LONG diagonal path through the LUNGS. On the quartering-to-the-rifle shot, the bullet goes through the NEAR shoulder, and then passes through...the LUNGS. On a broadside presentation, the bullet is aimed to break both shoulders, and between the shoulders that bullet intersects...the forward end of the LUNGS, or all the big veins and arteries above the heart, or maybe both.

I repeat: I don't AIM for heart/lung shots, but the vital zones are still affected by a proper shoulder shot. The shoulder shot also has the huge advantage of immobilizing the animal right there, which is highly desireable. "WTF", indeed!

I went to the Northwest Territories in 1964 to work for a gold mine. I left the Territories in 1997, and I held a resident big-game licence for EVERY ONE OF THOSE 33 YEARS. As a resident, with NO DRAW required for any of the following, I was entitled each year to: one moose, one woodland caribou, at least FIVE Barren-Ground caribou each year and TEN BG caribou in some of those years, black bears, wolf (a varmint, most of the years), Dall sheep, and sea mammals if desired. My wife also had a big-game licence for all those years, which doubled our legal quota. WE LIVED ON GAME, mostly caribou and moose. In the 1970s/early '80s, we could also hunt Wood Bison on a no-draw basis.

I do a lot more shooting than hunting and as a result have many more rifles than I "need" for a decent hunting battery. However, ONE of my rifles, just ONE, my M700 in .30-06, has taken over 140 animals for me over those years, mostly caribou but including some moose and bears. The .404 has killed 14 Wood Bison, as near as I can recall, some on other people's licences, which was permitted due to the difficulty of bringing bison to bag.

I mention all this because anyone who decides to question my "field experience" or calls me a "poser" ('poseur' is correct spelling, BTW) is barking up the wrong damned tree.

To the rest of the Board, my apologies for the tone this thread has taken, although I do not believe it's my doing.

John, the day I choose a rifle and cartridge combo based on what an anti hunter thinks is the same day I hang it up. I hunt and make zero apologies for it.

Ever seen a live Bison John?

Chuck

I have far too much to do today to bother defending myself from being called a "poser" or any other slurs, stated or implied, made by those whom I have considered friends on this and other forums and who have both PM,ed and phoned me personally quite frequently (and whom I have oftimes defended from personal slurs on these same forums).

My politics, concerning the serious crime situation now evident in my country, about which the originator of the unpleasant remarks made here knows nothing, have absolutely no bearing on this issue. But, it is always interesting to see someone pontificate about character when indulging in being a two-faced, sanctimonious braggart. The opinions Brad expresses here, about me and others, demonstrate a desire to be "right" at all costs, even to the point of losing a friend, so be it.

I first went to the N.W.T. in 1966 and have lived, worked and recreated for more than 40 years in that area(briefly), the Yukon(very briefly), Alaska(very briefly), wilderness Alberta( quite extensively) and B.C. (all of my life). I also grew up and lived with Grizzlies in my backyard and have spent many periods of several months totally alone in Albertan wilderness with various rifles as tools.

I simply thought that it was permissible here for some of us to express our opinions on this issue based on our experiences and did so; I have seen quite a number of Bison in the wild, but, have never had an LEH for one. My hunting partner just returned from Alberta last week where he and others shot Bison, Boar and so forth on one of the ranchs there; I could have gone along, but, I am not interested in ranch hunting so I went backpack hunting alone, in a snowstorm, in the Kootenay-Boundary country.

It is very easy to call someone a "poser" or attempt to slag them on the internet and it may give an immature and egotistical person a real thrill to do this, but, what it really shows is that the one who does so has some pretty serious issues concerning self-image and needs to grow up. I am not going to waste anymore time with this, from this point I shall ignore those whose arrogant behaviour brought this about as fighting on the internet is not worth the effort.

John and Bren, I will say that I find your posts on this thread to be informed, interesting and based on both experience and a very high level of hunting ethics and sportsmanship and I salute you for it. I think it best to drop this whole issue as there are much better ways to discuss hunting than this exercise in what appears to be beer boasting.....

John has brought nothing to the table. Nothing! Bruce has in a big way and that is the type of thing we like to hear. There is no question a bigger rifle with bigger bullets will get the job done in fine and more dramatic fashion. I will also add, that it takes a skilled rifleman to utilize the difference. That same skilled rifleman can do a handy job of it with just about any situationally sane cartridge on the market.

A spade is a spade, and there are people on this thread giving advise about things they haven't got the first legitimate clue about. That is simple lying and it isn't fare.

Chuck

quote:

Originally posted by JohnTheGreek:

1). OK...taking a light calibre out for Bison is just not right.

2).Turning a noble animal needlessly into swiss cheese

Here's a couple of statements that got my dander up from the first part of this thread.

Bren Mk I

quote:

Taking deer rifles after such animals is unfair and unsportsmanlike

Here's another that got my dander up from the beginning of this thread, then to be followed with accounts of all sorts of bad shooting with a big bore.

Bren MK I

quote:

Shooting a bison once and "waiting as long as it takes" for it to die is despicable behavior.

Here's another...

quote:

Originally posted by JohnTheGreek:
As I said before, Baker had it figured out that a large animal requires a large bullet in the mid 19th century. The laws of physics are the same today as they were then.

The "laws of physic's" has nothing to do with it... physiology, however, does. Punch the lungs and stuff dies. Hit around the edges and stuff lingers even if hit with your 416.

quote:

I'm not interested in heart-lung shots on any animals, and this is the main reason I use big rifles on large game. I shoot for shoulders, for heavy bones, and I want my bullet to be able to reach the shoulder and break it from practical angles...

Bullet placement is critical in any game shooting

Shooting bison is different, that's all.

I'll repeat this dandy... It's another that gave me a pause. Sorry, but shooting to break bone but not punch vitals while having the audacity to moralize about ethical killing is pure BS.

And, BTW, I'm not against breaking bone or even breaking an animal down. Some game requires it in some situation's. It's the "holier than thou" moralizing while holding the above attitude on "all animal's" that pisses me off.

Chuck,

I don't believe I suggested that you choose anything the basis of opinions presented by "anti-hunters". I did say that you should choose a rifle/cartridge combination that doesn't make hunters in general look bad to those who don't hunt. You should intuitively be able to understand the reasons for this. I would like the tradition of hunting to survive for my children and grandchildren and will hunt in such a way to preserve the OUR image. I see that as my responsibility, not to my political opponents, but to future hunters.

Brad,

All of the above statements that you find so damnable are absolutely true. Some silly deer rifle will truly kill anything on the planet, and possibly SOMETIMES as fast as a larger calibre (Hell, Jack O'Connor's wife took an elephant with her 30-06) but that doesn't make it respectable.

Best,

John

quote:

Originally posted by JohnTheGreek:
In Brad's mind, no matter how poorly you shoot a 2200 pound Bison, he will die "eventually"

WOW, John, not only are you a moral pontificator, mis-aply Physics instead of Physiology but you're also a mind reader/writer of fiction...

Go back and find anywhwere I ever said any such thing.

That's being dishonest.

quote:

Originally posted by Brad:
The "laws of physic's" has nothing to do with it...

Once in your life I would like you to face a free roaming bison (one that is not used to kids tying to pet it from the window of a Winnebago) that is trying to flee into impenetrably thick bush after having been shot in the lungs with ANY calibre. Then please tell me how well you think your 7mm is going to do in breaking bones to anchor the animal or in reaching its vitals from odd angles. Yes, you MAY find this animal anyway but I can guarantee you that getting the meat out of such an area will not be pleasant even if possible. What prevents this problem from occuring....F=MA Brad ....yes physics matters. At this point your agrument for the 7mm on a North America's largest land mammal is ignoring the writing of Sir Samuel Baker AND Newton. Well done!

Best,

John

quote:

Originally posted by kutenay:
I have far too much to do today to bother defending myself from being called a "poser" or any other slurs, stated or implied, made by those whom I have considered friends on this and other forums

Kutenay, you should have stayed away from your first post calling into account my character... you opened that door partner. I also noticed you edited your remarks slightly.

I decided not to take you on for your racist hate-mongering on the other forum in other threads. I looked the other way, though you went down substantially in my book.

Having "taken me on" in this thread I will not sit idly back and be taken to task by someone of your character. At least, to your credit, who you really are is clear.

John and I disagree on this issue and I've been more than a little peeved at what I consider unwaranted moralizing without any basis in reality (in my view) and taking out of context and adding to my statements. However, disagreeing with me over something as incosequential (in the big view) as shooting buffalo is, in the end, nearly irrelevant. And while I don't know him personally, I'd wager he doesn't hold your view of certain races, living in Egypt and all... ultimately an issue like that is more important to me than any wilderness adventure, big game hunting, rifle preference, etc.

So John, the bison in Yellowstone are
not "free ranging"... what the heck do you think this shoot is all about?

Anyway, I have nothing against you John. We obviously disagree. I haven't misrepresented your position in any way, but you certainly have mine (quite the fictionalizer) as well as showing you really know little about this hunt in MT which is what this thread was about.

Actually, I do think the hunt in MT is "fair chase"...but not to the highest standards as the animals themselves have not seen people as a real threat for a LONG time. Other herds have behaved similarly (just standing around as the truck full of hunters pulls up and then acting surprised and confused as their buddy is shot) when first hunted but then became wary as all hell within a few years. Given time and enough hunting pressure, I hope the MT herd will do the same.

Best,

John

Best to you too John, and I sincerely mean that.

Brad

Dear Varmint Guy,

In response to your question I aim just behind the shoulder about one-third up on the body. This seems to immediately drop them and they are dead upon being able to approach once the herd disperses. (I do confuse that I always sho them again upon approaching as ammo is cheaper than the emergency room.) The guide stated (which seemed sincere at the time)that "they never go down that fast" and became very interested in the Federal High Energy load I was using. Subsequently I have had immediate one shot kills with a 458 Winchester, but that does not come as a surprise to me. The guide used a 458 as well and commented that the only of one shot kills other than a 458 were from a 338-378 Weatherby.

General comment:

In response to one of the posts above I too wich that I could hunt free ranging bison. I have seen the herd located in the Henry Mountains of Utah and they were incredible. Frankly I can not imagine the difficulty in getting one out after a successful hunt. I lived in Park City for several years but never was able to win a hunt permit for these bison. I put in a for a cow as I figured I would otherwise have to live to an age of about 175 to be able to get a bull permit.

quote:

Originally posted by Don In Colorado:
I have seen the herd located in the Henry Mountains of Utah and they were incredible. Frankly I can not imagine the difficulty in getting one out after a successful hunt. I lived in Park City for several years but never was able to win a hunt permit for these bison. I put in a for a cow as I figured I would otherwise have to live to an age of about 175 to be able to get a bull permit.

My father put in for the Henry hunt FOREVER and never drew. DAMN I wish preference points were inheritable! Solution....GO NORTH!

Best Regards,

John

Why are smallbore shooters always trying to rationalize their inability to handle a little recoil by whining that the "ideal" caliber for any particular game is the absolute minimum anybody can get away with if they're lucky?