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All things being equal, including marksmanship, are you more likely to efficiently kill a moose/brown bear with a .22 Hornet or a .300 WM? I think we all know the answer.

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Originally posted by TomP:

Old Ephraim was the last grizzly bear in Utah, can't remember what ended his career.

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Frank Clark shot Old Ephraim in the head on 22 August 1923 with a .25-35 carbine rifle with six rounds.

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All this talk about the old Savage rifles, and rarely do we hear about what they were used for. For as far back as Savage started to sell the Model 1899 and other models, they were advertised beyond their actual use. Ads of the 1895s with kills of such animals as Lions and elephants were amazing to the general hunting population. Even when the 22 H.P. was introduced awe inspiring commercialism was Savages mainstay with ads of the little Imp taking leopards in Africa.In this day and age we would do a serious double take if someone asked you to go around the world and challenge the big five with nothing but a small 20 carbine model 1899H. With all the new offerings available to the hunters of this day it would be suicide to do so, but yet it seems like the old boys club were either a lot braver or down right crazy back then. Could you picture yourself standing in front of a charging lion with a small 22 caliber pill being throw from this small rifle and drop it? Not this guy.




It brings back a funny memory of the time I first took my model 23B in 25-20 to the range. A group of modern day magnum junkies were shooting at the benches beside me and laughed at the small round every time I pulled the trigger. They asked what I was shooting and had another chuckle when the found they were 86 grain pills and sounded like a pistol round. Their faces sure dropped when I explained to them that it was the same round the Jordan buck was taken with, so just because its old doesnt mean its useless.

A friend of mine recently found some old boxes from an estate and sent me a note due to my Savage infatuation, seems it was all about a man named J.W. French. I was totally amazed at the literature and photos that were in this treasure trove of Savage history, as all he used was an old model 1899 T/D in 250-3000. He was the man of men when it came to being a lone mountain man, going out for weeks on end with his camp kit and the old (then new) rifle. It was used so much that Ive got a factory letter from 1921 regarding a total overhaul on the rifle, including a new barrel and stock set as well as a good cleaning. He took countless Rocky Mountain game species and in one hunt stalked and killed nine grizzlies with this little rifle that shot 87 grain bullets at that time. Somewhere during his years he was sworn in a made a special constable and given a badge without salary for the Game Conservation Board of British Columbia.




With today's long list of magnum cartridges and flashy new models from Savage, there just isnt a large interest in hunting with older models such as the Model 99, 1920, 40 and 45 centerfire rifles. Fortunately we can rest assured that somewhere they are sitting in a dusty corner just waiting for the opportunity to hit the field again and prove once again that they are more than capable. The vicious rumor of the Winchester 94 30-30 taking the most deer in its history may be true, but there's little question that the Savage Model 99 was and still is a close second.

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Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
There is not a single person living today that has even a remote idea as to how many moose and brown bear have been killed with .22LR's over the decades.

Or .22 Hornets/.22 Savage High Powers/.25-20's etc. etc. etc. not unlike the numbers of elephants and cape buffalo and rhino and other critters Bell killed with the rifles he preferred.

Are there better(?) choices in this day and age, yes, but will the older calibers with properly placed shots still kill game, YES!

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It's not a question of whether they will kill, but how long it will take and if it's dangerouse game whether you'll be dead before they die from the shot!!!

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Originally posted by p dog shooter:

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It's not a question of whether they will kill, but how long it will take and if it's dangerouse game whether you'll be dead before they die from the shot!!!

Feel free to post stories of this happening.

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There have been several PHs in Africa

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Originally posted by p dog shooter:

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There have been several PHs in Africa

I thought we were talking Alaska.

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Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
This entire discussion, while being funny in many aspects points out WHY hunters will never be able to join together and form a United group against the anti-hunting element.

We look for every reason possible to attack each other because of individual choices, whether they are real or made up.

I have done a little hunting in my life and I have had the opportunity to guide a few people on hunts. I can only speak for myself, but I will take a hunter using a rifle/cartridge/load combination they are comfortable and confident with any day, over some blowhole fuckeroo waltzing into camp with equipment that is beyond their capabilities and knowledge.

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Originally posted by Topgun 30-06:
Yea, and when you start guiding for dangerous game please get back to me and tell me you'll take a guy with a 30-30, LOL! All you do is guide a person out for a hog or whitetail down in TX. That's a far cry from the big five in Africa, a grizzly, or brown bear in North America! I do agree with your profanity laced statement on many people using big guns that they have no business with though.

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Originally posted by BigNate:
I would bet the .30-30 has taken nearly as much game in Ak as all the other calibers put together except for the .223. Natives use all kinds of "junk" and have been using the .30-30 for a long time. It's still very commonly used. The .223 is also right up there in popularity.

170gr Rem Corloks will kill everything you'd get to hunt up there if you do you're part. There are other guns I'd be more comfortable with but I wouldn't be scared to hunt with one.

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I can only speak for myself, but I will take a hunter using a rifle/cartridge/load combination they are comfortable and confident with any day, over some blowhole fuckeroo waltzing into camp with equipment that is beyond their capabilities and knowledge.

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Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

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I can only speak for myself, but I will take a hunter using a rifle/cartridge/load combination they are comfortable and confident with any day, over some blowhole fuckeroo waltzing into camp with equipment that is beyond their capabilities and knowledge.

I can not guarantee anything, but I would be willing to bet that the majority of guides/PH's/outfitters whether for DG in Africa or white tails in Texas, prefer to deal with clients that show up with equipment i.e. rifle/scope/ammo combination they are comfortable and competent with, than a client that shows up in camp with equipment they are not familiar with or have shot just enough to be scared of it.

I really don't believe I am in a class by myself on that thought.

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Originally posted by graybird:
Topgun,

What caliber and bullet did you use to kill your brown bear and moose?

I wanna make sure I choose the same or similar.

Thanks!

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Originally posted by Topgun 30-06:

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Originally posted by graybird:
Topgun,

What caliber and bullet did you use to kill your brown bear and moose?

I wanna make sure I choose the same or similar.

Thanks!

We sure have a lot of GD comedians on this site that can't seem to make a positive post! To answer your question though, I just go out with my BB gun, shoot their eyes out, and then let them kill themselves when they run off a mountain cliff!!! The ammo is real cheap and I got two Booners at less than 25 yards in the Yukon just last year! Both should score in the top 5 taken by that method, LOL!

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Originally posted by Topgun 30-06:
My question was legit, evidently you didn't see it that way.

You got that right bucko! Why do you evidently feel that someone has to have shot something to have a legitimate opinion on a Forum discussion? FYI a lot of the so-called "Experts" in the field of hunting, ballistics, etc. have probably not shot anywhere near the big game that I have, have made a career of writing stuff for a living, and yet people read their stuff and take it as gospel. This is just a piddly ass discussion on an internet Forum where people are giving their opinions based on what they feel they know about a particular subject. The more I read threads like this the more I feel that what CHC stated is right on the button with his posts and the cute little smilies!!!

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One of his favorite guns for rhino was a 32 spcl win 94 with solids!

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FYI a lot of the so-called "Experts" in the field of hunting, ballistics, etc. have probably not shot anywhere near the big game that I have,

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Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
snellstrom, my hat is off to you. If for no other reason than proving that hunters are totally incapable of being objective or supportive of each other.

A simple off the cuff question has at least one supposedly experienced hunter ready to have a coronary concerning conditions that have nothing at all to do with the original intent of the question.

This one discussion proves that if the future of hunting depends on hunters supporting each other, the end is closer than anyone wants to believe.

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Originally posted by larrys:

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FYI a lot of the so-called "Experts" in the field of hunting, ballistics, etc. have probably not shot anywhere near the big game that I have,

I was wondering how long it was going to take before he used the old "my things bigger than yours" line.

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Originally posted by just-a-hunter:
Who's experience is more valuable?...

A dipshit that's been a hunting dipshit for 60 years, or a regualar joe who's struggled for his knowledge for a single hunting season???

Todd

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Originally posted by graybird:
Fair enough! Why don't you give us your real name or pen name, so we can read some of your writings.

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Originally posted by ted thorn:

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Originally posted by graybird:
Fair enough! Why don't you give us your real name or pen name, so we can read some of your writings.

Topgun.....I believe graybird has called you out

Put up or.......you know

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Originally posted by Topgun 30-06:

FYI a lot of the so-called "Experts" in the field of hunting, ballistics, etc. have probably not shot anywhere near the big game that I have, have made a career of writing stuff for a living, and yet people read their stuff and take it as gospel.

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Originally posted by Topgun 30-06:

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Originally posted by ted thorn:

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Originally posted by graybird:
Fair enough! Why don't you give us your real name or pen name, so we can read some of your writings.

Topgun.....I believe graybird has called you out

Put up or.......you know

Fuck him and the rest of these clowns that seem to be having fun at someone's expense that doesn't really give a shit what they think, LOL!

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Originally posted by graybird:

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Originally posted by Topgun 30-06:

FYI a lot of the so-called "Experts" in the field of hunting, ballistics, etc. have probably not shot anywhere near the big game that I have, have made a career of writing stuff for a living, and yet people read their stuff and take it as gospel.

Topgun,

Since you've made a career hunting and writing, give me a chance to take your word as the gospel! Please!!!

Usually, folks who have done this for a career, want folks to read their stuff. I'm not saying, I'm just saying!!