Greg, I'll post wherever and whenever I feel like it, regardless of the feelings of those who feel the need to shoot captive animals, and especially in blatant disregard of how those feel who are trying to sell and justify it.

I won't tell you when you should and shouldn't respond. Got it? Or do you prefer a more subtle method. Ask me if I care.

Greenhorn,

Clearly you don't care about anything but making waves. I thought you might listen to reason, although I should have known better by the tone of your posts. Even most of the people who agree with you don't think you handled this correctly.

Grow up or flame on. I don't care. The tone of your posts guarantees that you will never be taken seriously, although it might end up as fuel for some of the anti-hunting boards.

Greg,

Does Mombasa Trading Company offer canned hunts? Just curious.

As far as being taken seriously, I really don't care. I was just giving a spontanious opinion on the topic, which seemed to really set some people off. Too bad.

Unfortunately they are inherently tied together in this case. As far as my statement of degrading everything goes I stand by it. Look where this thread has gone from where it started. Im sorry you felt I was preaching at you or something. Trust me, I would be the last one able to do that. I swear as much as the next guy. I do however try to stop myself when someone is around who I might offend. This is an open forum and as such "everyone" is around. I just think we need to be carefull in what we say. It does go along with the idea of being civil.

Well the elk are in a 10 mile by 5 mile pasture of rough country with steep rough mountains, are only hunted on foot...They are here while the remainder of the ranch is being high fenced..In a short time the place will be 100,000 acres under fence and in time hopefully 200,000 acres..These guys have a dream and it is coming true...They also have Whitetail, Mule Deer, Turkey, and Bison and some of the best bird hunting in the world...

I offered the hunt and told what it was, for those who are interrested...

I had no intention of booking Greenhorn in the first place

I think there is a place for such hunts as these..A lot of business men do not have time to take off a couple of weeks nor have the phyical ability to do a back country hunt, nor the knowledge of where to go..They don't live in the area and are not familiar with it..Many older folks can get along better on these hunts and we also plan to do a some youth hunts..

There is a place for everything, but there are always those who'd kick if they were in the water.

Apparantly I ticked Greenhorn off in one of my more jovial moods one time a year or so ago and he is still packing that baggage around with him so I am sorry I did that and I apoligise if it bothered him that bad, wasn't my intention..But I did not do anything that could adversly effect his family or his livelyhood, his post could effect my livelyhood and my family and I think that is pretty rotten, but chances are that I will survive it......

Atkinson, consider your apology accepted, though I never lost any sleep over that. I apologize to you as well. I've seen similar hunts offered by you in the past and have to admit I was pretty surprised.

I can't say however, that I'd justify captive elk hunts based on those with physical limits, disability, or youth. I have a friend in a wheelchair that shot a bighorn sheep in MT a couple years back. Last thing he'd do is go to a game farm to kill something. I still think 3K for something like that is crazy, but to each thier own I guess. Just my opinion.

[ 05-14-2003, 18:41: Message edited by: jimmyd223 ]

Ray is a businessman and does make his living by selling hunts so I would hope that his livelyhood is not affected.On the other hand he did make statements about how little skill is required in a canned hunt when he responded to Greenhorn on the posts Greenhorn linked to.As a businessman Ray should have realized that these statements could be a problem later if he was to try and sell canned hunts.How do you expect people to react when at first you condemn something and then later try to sell it to others to make a profit?Someone making a living in this field has to be very careful with their speech where topics like this are concerned.

[ 05-12-2003, 03:25: Message edited by: stubblejumper ]

As a person who has been in the hunting business for many years, it is amazing to me how many people don't know the difference in a canned hunt and a fenced hunt...

Let's clarify. A canned hunt consist of releasing a captive animal from a cage and shooting it or releasing it over a bait on a very small acreage. The name "canned hunt" originated in Africa over the killing of captive Lions...A canned hunt is an illegal non sportsmanlike acitivity to any hunter...

A fenced hunt on the other hand can be a fair chase hunt IMO....I have seen some fenced ranches that are larger than many of our National Forrests, in fact larger that some states..Keep in mind that about 99% of South African and much of Zimbabwe, New Zealand and some of Australia is under fence for one reason or another...

A high fence may be to keep animals in or poachers out or both depending on the circumstance..I assure you in many parts of Nebraska, Texas and all of RSA, not to fence it would be inviting disaster from local poachers..

Some folks don't like to hunt our sometimes over crowded National Forest, and they can sure be that and they also have boundries, state lines, rivers and Mountain ranges, all these things are boundries, we live in a world of boundries...

Elk are not historically Mountain animals and we who hunt them in the Selway, Bitteroot, Jackson Hole and all over the Pacific Northwest are not hunting indigenous species in there historical homes, so that also is an issue for some who would condem such activity as hunting elk in todays elk country..

The folks I book for on this ranch have a dream and that is to restore the elk to their original homeland and to establish a herd of free roaming elk there...They presently have purchased about 200,000 acres, built a nice lodge and are in the process of fencing that land without cross fencing and returning the land to prestine condition, quite a project and very costly, the fencing is about $6000.00 per mile..They use 4" pipe, very expensive 1/2" wire and they cannot do this all at once...

Presently these bulls are in about a 10 mile by 5 mile rough, steep, mountainous, thick brush country with no cross fencing and the land is self suportive without feeding suppliment except during drouth perhaps, but they try not to interfere with the natural process within reason. They need the hunting to help manage the program to keep numbers in order and money coming in...The are now fencing the remaining 100,000 acres of this tract and that should be completed within a year or more, then they will proceed on the rest...

I believe this to be an honorable project for some folks with forseeing ideas, the owner is a true conservationist and is totally dedicated to his project and to hunting and the preservation of our right to bear arms..His attitude and beleifs are far and away to Ted Turners type of ranching and hunting, who speaks our publically against hunting and the right to bare arms, then allows (charges) hunting on his ranches in Montana and Argentina.

As part of the program on this ranch the owner decided he needed to cull out some of the 5x5, 6x6's and other non trophy bulls and choose to let them be hunted by hunters at a very reasonable rate of $2950.00 as opposed to selling them to game farms..As most guided elk hunts today are bringing $5500 to $13,000 I think that is a really good deal...I have hunted elk all over the N.A. continent and hunt my state of Idaho every year and I have also hunted this ranch...I have no problems with hunting on this ranch and I consider it fair chase, I also hunt Africa and like most here that have hunted Africa I have hunted under fence and I consider that fair chase...I also hunt Tanzanias Selous, Moyawashi, and Masi Mara, non fenced and huge and I see little difference in difficulty..

When it comes to hunting everyone has their prejudices..I see folks slam fenced hunting regardless of the size of the hunting area, yet these same folks have no qualms at all about shooting a bear over a barrel of honey and dead fish, cookies and pastry in our National Forest, or shooting elk over a salt lick, or Deer out of a blind...

I think its time to put all these silly prejudices aside and to each his own and as long as it is legal then keep quite about it, least the non hunting community feed form our ignorance and the end will come sooner rather than later....

I and most every booking agent I know sells some fenced hunts, otherwise they would not survive in this business or they are not legitamite booking agents and are playing at the business part time...

May Doctors book with me because they cannot get off from their business of saving lives, replacing hearts etc for more than 3 or 4 days. They cannot come from NY or Texas, scout out Montana or Idaho, find a place to hunt and come back during season, nor can they take off 10 days or two weeks to go hunting....I have judges and attourneys prosecuting criminals that cannot find the time to take the big hunts and on and on..This offers them an opertunity to hunt and they deserve and have earned that opertunity as much as the local who can get out and scout behing his house locate a herd and go shoot one on a weekend, but he has the freedom, albiet less financial ability, and can get his elk every year..In many instances he takes exception to the Doctors, lawyers and well heeled people who invade his domain but the facts are we are all in this thing together and such issues should not come into play, but they do and it is nothing but pure ignorance.

I only hope that by pointing some of these things that I have observed over the years will have some effect on some of you out there, I know that I cannot change the world, but if I can change one mind, that will help the hunting society and gun owners to come together as a group and help preserve our way of life...They will divide and conquer otherwise.

And thats the way I see it at 9:38 AM on Monday, May 12, 2003..

Well stated Ray. Here's to hoping that someone has the experience of their lifetime by booking one of your hunts.

Great post! Although I have never hunted inside a fence personally , I have been on some large fenced ranches and trust me on the big ones it is hunting! No, the animals will not eat out of your hand, they are as wild as any I have ever seen and I can personally attest to the hunting time issue, I travel appx. 3 weeks a month so my time is limited as to what I am able to do. When you squeeze in time with my family etc. it gets tough!

Just my 2 cents.

Doug

Good point DW Hunter, fenced animals on large parcels that are hunted year around are actually more of a challange than those hunted once a year....

I recall one of our esteemed posters hunting on a 1000 ac. thick bush place and not seeing an animal for 4 or 5 days, now I have not hunted a parcel that small in my lifetime, but it sounds like a tough hunt crawling around all day on your hands and knees in stuff so thick that you cannot walk...I have hunted the African bush wherein I could not stand straight up most of the day and that hurt all night...

In any case I will allways hold my judgment until I have been there, done that or listened to the do-ee enough to form an opinnion, as opposed to jumping in without a clue.

I know I apologized here. ... but FUCK! I think I'm going to puke after reading that load of bullshit!

Come on Ray, nice literary masterpiece, but give me a break. So Ted Turner speaks out against hunting yet buys the MT moose auction permit 2 years in a row and kills a couple big bulls on his property? Did you know Turner was a hunter? I don't know him, he may very well be a big asshole. I don't care. But your post makes me squirm. It redefines my definition of sleaze with a capitol "S."

Does it mean that the guy that once sent me this exact quote in an email was only kidding?

"you did a canned hunt on tame and gentle elk and I find that intolerable" -Atkinson sept 2001

[ 05-13-2003, 05:03: Message edited by: Greenhorn ]

Laughing or puking? I dunno which one seems more appropriate.

"I know that I cannot change the world, but if I can change one mind, that will help the hunting society and gun owners to come together as a group and help preserve our way of life." --Atkinson May 2003



"May Doctors book with me because they cannot get off from their business of saving lives, replacing hearts etc for more than 3 or 4 days. They cannot come from NY or Texas, scout out Montana or Idaho, find a place to hunt and come back during season, nor can they take off 10 days or two weeks to go hunting....I have judges and attourneys prosecuting criminals that cannot find the time to take the big hunts and on and on..This offers them an opertunity to hunt and they deserve and have earned that opertunity as much as the local who can get out and scout behing his house locate a herd and go shoot one on a weekend" --Atkinson May 03

So how big is the enclosure on turners ranch?The advertising says the ranch is over 100,000 acres.Why is his a canned hunt while the one being sold here is a fenced hunt.I have no problem with people hunting within game fences even though

So how big is the enclosure on turners ranch?The advertising says the ranch is over 100,000 acres.I have no problem with people hunting within game fences even though I prefer not to but if both ranches are so large why is one a fenced hunt and the other a canned hunt?

The only affordable elk hunting in my home state (Oklahoma) is by drawing in a fenced area. Out of state prices are out of my budget. If I'm lucky enough to get drawn (once in a lifetime)for an elk I'm going hunting.
Gene

Stubblejumper, they are "fenced hunts" if Ray is selling them. Turner's place isn't fenced, no enclosure for elk. It's "canned" there because Ray doesn't like the landowner.

I've been lurking, watching this thread, I've never seen such a public display of BS in my life!

Ray, I've read a lot of your posts, and from the sounds of them, you want people to believe you're an ethical guy. However, your actions speak louder than your words. Booking fenced hunts, canned hunts, whatever you prefer to call them this week, isnt real ethical.

Then to top it all off you try to defend it by saying, "well my clients dont have enough time to do it right."

Well, I say if you/they cant make the commitment to hunt elk the right way, you know outside an enclosure, well....maybe knitting or golf should be considered. For the 3K that people pay for their fenced/canned hunt they could easily hunt trophy elk in just about any Western State, and have success if they arent afraid to work at it. The problem is, because of booking agents, game farmers, etc. looking for the quick sure $$$, hunting has been reduced to a fargin joke of penned in hunts. Sadly, theres also a whole herd of no-work lazy shooters out there willing to pay and participate....all because they're either too ignorant or too lazy to commit to hunting.

Ray, you can try to defend it all you want, but its pathetic, absolutely pathetic to pimp out elk shooting like you're trying to do here, and pass it off as "elk hunting".

Oh, and about Turner and his ranches...you dont know your ass from your elbow. I worked for Ted managing his riparian/wetland/fisheries on two of his ranches and dealt with both him and his son quite often. Both pretty good outdoorsmen...they both hunt and fish all the time. The one thing they dont do, however, is hunt elk in an enclosure. Their wildlife management and land management practices are excellent...they care about wildlife and the land more than any private land owner I've ever dealt with.

Your right I don't like Ted Turner and I don't like his ex-wife and I don't like their politics, they are far left liberal democrats and they are anti-gun, and they are trying to take my guns and he professes to be an anti hnter and hunts his ranches, I don't approve of that like you don't approve of my booking fenced hunting, and that is my opinnion...I don't have to like him because you do...You don't have to hunt my fenced hunt...

I will continue to sell these hunts, I have no problem with it, you apparantly are not going to book one of them, so whatever your take is,it is not of relivence to me...I still have many an unfenced elk hunt for those who can get the time off....

I wonder where all you desenters were on the recent Buffalo hunts that are fenced, or is it just for me because I ticked off Green horn and some of his buddies?? which pretty much voids the legitamacy of this whole post, if that is the case and I believe it to be, then this discussion has no relivency....

Most of the hunters on this board including myself, Saeed, Mac, Nick, Mbogo, Duga,Sam,George Hoffman, Judge Ern. all of the African bunch, have hunted behind a fence. Get real, there is life after Montana. The subject has lost its substance.

Ray, of course you'll still sell your canned hunts, just like any good pimp.

Personally my ethics and morals arent for sale at any price...

You on the other hand sold yours out for a cheap substitute for legitimate hunting, pretty freaking sleazy if you ask me.

Good luck to you Ray, I wish you the best in your pursuit for the all-mighty dollar.

Somebody forgot to close the back door again? Looks like the Cyberterrorists have attacked again. Things must be going kind of slow at the mother forum...

Ray-

Save your breath; unfortunately, it's falling on deaf ears.

It's just incredibly perplexing how someone can call a hunt taking place in a 5 mile x 10 mile enclosure a "canned" hunt.

Maybe we should pitch in, buy these guys a hunt, drop 'em off in the middle of the ranch -- and see if their opinions change once they (or even IF they) find their way back to civilization...

And if they truly believe this is a canned hunt, which means it must be incredibly easy, let's make sure they travel light: a couple of rounds of ammo (forget the gun & ammo; they don't want to hunt this way!) should be all they could possibly need. There should be no need for food, a compass, flashlight, etc., since, after all, it's a "canned" hunt...

Yes, there are such things as canned hunts. But simply hunting behind a high fence doesn't make it so. Opening one's mind to the concept is all it takes to see that hunting on a multi-thousand acre spread is anything but "canned," no matter if it is high-fenced or not.

Ray-
I have to add one more thing, and this got me to laughing: At least one of these guys has hunted antelope before, so I wonder if he considers this a "canned" hunt since pronghorn won't jump the simplest 4-wire fence? Gee, playing by their rules, that would make the fence an enclosure and therefore a "canned" hunt...

Can't have you cake and eat it, too.....

Hey Bobby, I'll take that offer.

Drop me off in the middle of that pen with a rifle and a pocket full of ammo. You pay for all the "elk" (aka farm animals) I kill. I hope you got a fat check book to pay for all the carnage.

Oh, and I'll find my way out real easy.

Bobby the wildlife expert said, "so I wonder if he considers this a "canned" hunt since pronghorn won't jump the simplest 4-wire fence?"

Huh? WTF are you talking about? You saying pronghorn NEVER jump fences? I'll agree they go through or under a vast majority of the time...but these stupid antelope in WY must not have talked to you before they cleared fences...with ease.

You should get away from the high fences once in a while...

[ 05-13-2003, 20:49: Message edited by: Buzz H ]

Good reading. Thanks for the link Greenhorn. Kinda shows what type of guy this Atkinson character is.

Seems (sp?) kinda funny that most here don't seem to want to acknowledge the truth that was available in the link. Ol' Ray made an ass of himself.

Buzz-
I've seen them clear fences, but not very often. An antelope will work its way up and down a fence line FOR HOURS looking for a weak spot or place to go around rather than simply hopping over, which it is well-equipped to do. Anyone who denies this is not at all very familiar with the species...

Bobby, so now they jump, but not to often...thats a direct contradiction to your first post.

Further, these stupid damned antelop down here must not realize they have to walk walk up and down fence lines for hours, most never even hardly break stride as they fly under the fences...but then again..thats just your typical 4-5 strand barb-wire fence...I realize that Texans are talking about a different kind of fence. The fences that keep them damn critters within comfortable shooting distances so you Texans actually have a chance.

I wonder if Fat Lazy Texans can fit under the typical Wyoming 4-5 strand barb-wire fence? My guess is the BBQ grease on the front of their shirts gives them a little chance...its just those big pot-bellies that give them the most trouble. Stepping over them is out as well...them big old fat legs and crotchless pants they wear make that pretty tough...they bust their seams...it would seam.

Buzz-
Your last post speaks volumes for your character -- or lack thereof.

Buzz-
One last thing: I never attacked your character or made degrading comments about you or your home state. Are you not capable of posting with civility? Are you not capable of engaging in intelligent conversation? (Those were rhetorical questions, by the way.)

Bobby, your last post speaks volumes for your lack of any sense of humor at all.

Buzz-
I do have a sense of humor, but it's only activated by something that's actually funny...

Intellect is out, profanity for the purpose of emphasis has replaced logic, let's now resort to stereotypical assumptions and name calling. Some might be better served by furthering their own self-improvement of persuasive powers and proper use of English dialect as opposed to forum hopping.

I for one, would much rather partake in outdoor recreation with those who encompass the fine art of gentlemanly behavior, as opposed to those who resort to measured egotistical self-worth through
holier than thou assumptions.

In werds that make sense to thoos who chews to deffer: I would much rather share a camp with a man such as Ray, who has devoted a lifetime to making the world a better place by eliminating the criminal element from society, than those who perpetuate the myth of success is deserved by only those who have the greater hunting skills and the luxury of living in prime country. Included in this are those who measure a man by his endurance or lack there of. A hunt is measured by the experience and the times shared with those deserving, without any deferrence to their means and ability, not by a measurer for Boone and Crockett or Pope and Young. Post me a picture of what you do for society the 300 days that you don't hunt, not the bull or buck that you killed on the days that you do.

Post the picture of the doctor who saved your loved one, the attorney who kept you out of jail when you chose to brawl at the local bar after a few drinks, the LEO who saved your life when someone was threatening it, the EMT who pulled you out of the car wreck, all the people who might not have the time to spend strolling the mountains of the Rocky Mountain West spending weeks on end scounting.

Just my two cents worth...

I never hunt in a fenced area before but I'll do it for first time in RSA next june.
I hunt in an island quite offen, the area is aprox. 1000 ha and most of the time I come back empty handed, why? because of the thick bush pigs and deers nearly allways escaped. While hunting I never arrived to the shore, only to get in and out, so I imagine that if instead of water there was a fence it will be the same possibility to come back empty handed and believe me..I know the area.
So I think that maybe is more in "our mind" that in the real facts, maybe after my next hunt I will think different, who knows.
Obviously if I have more time and more MONEY I'll choose to go to Tanzania but I don't have neither of them and I believe that before condem something is better to do it and then give YOUR opinion, I may think that something is good or bad but I will never be sure till I live the experience.
Real world show us that more and more wild areas are dissapearing and maybe big fenced areas will be more common, because of this many people will enjoy hunting and camping in them and who I'm to judge them? What I will say to them? Hey, if you don't have the time or the money don't go hunting???
A canned hunt is abother thing and you all know it.
My 2 cts.
Best regards from my unfenced Uruguay
LG

Badboyz, while I agree with most of your post, would you explain to me what part of blasting a half domestic animal in an enclosure is "gentlemanly"? I have a hard time seeing that.

I also agree we shouldnt view success ONLY by what we've bagged...which brings me to my next question:

If its all about comradarie (sp?), the experience, etc. why do shooting farms even exist? I mean after all, which is the better experience, hunting a game farm under controlled conditions with a (basically) 100% chance of bagging an animal or hunting in wild country where the outcome is NEVER certain and success is often times 20-30 percent, or less?

I'd buy your theory alot easier if most game farms, fenced hunts, canned hunts, etc. had success rates similar to those of public lands hunting and were even half as difficult...but the fact remains the game farm is a much easier deal... so who's really it in it for the experience and who's in it for the kill?

I think the advertising of things like, "100 percent success", "no kill no pay", etc. answer the above question.

In my mind, hunting should take time, effort, discipline, and experience...not just a fat wallet. Hunting isnt for everybody, nor should it be cheapened to let the half-hearted have success, the fat wallet aside. Please keep in mind that this is my opinion, and only my opinion.

Oh, and for the record, the other 300 days a year I work managing Natural Resources for the betterment of the land, wildlife, and the people.

Nic Nuk,

Did I miss something? Did you happen to read the crap he posted in the link that was provided? He made some BOLD statements about GH's hunting ethics and practices. He then comes on here and sells what he's blasting someplace else ie; he made an ass of himself.

By the way, I don't need to get lost, I'm right here in Idaho and us spuds are lost all the time. Maybe there is a better way to say this Nic Nuk, but I'm not going to waist my time trying so.................piss up a rope

I agree that a promise 100% sucess rate is not my cup of tea but to be honest I know a place in my country (not fenced) with very little hunting preassure that if you go you'll shoot something (axis) because the open terrain, not easy but trust me, you'll shoot a deer, and the place is unfenced.
I'm sure that it will be more difficult to hunt the same deer in a fenced area with thick bush and more hunting preassure that in that open and unfenced farm.

For me, attacking a fenced operation using the argument that the hunting is easier is wrong (obviously depending on the area), I think that I can accept and agree, that is more with "something" inside us that with the hunting difficulty, as we all associate hunting with wild and solitary areas.

LG

Bullhound,
You're quite right about one thing .. there is a "better way to say it" but from what I've seen of you so far, I doubt you're capable and that's the message you guys are not receiving.