This question comes from the "best bullet" thread. It got me thinking, if you shoot 100 deer from a stand, all broadside shots, how much experience do you really have? All the shots are broadside, usually @ measured distances, how can you really evaluate your your equip. if you don't truely test it? If you shoot say, 25 deer from diff. distances, diff. angles, front 1/4, rear 1/4, full frontal, etc., isn't that going to give you a better picture of your bullet/cartridge performance? This is probably why so many hunters like this bullet over that bullet, style of hunting.

fred,
You are correct. A persons actual hunting experience will effect his choice of bullets, and calibers.
Take Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith. Near total opposites. Yet they were both right. If you hunt in Jack O,Connor country, his rifle choices were right. Same for Elmer Kieth, he usually hunted in a much thicker area. There his choices were correct.
What gets a fell in trouble is when you have the wrong bullet for the conditions you are hunting.
Case in point, I have no problem hunting deer and pigs with 168 Ballistic Tips on my deer lease when I am hunting in my ground blind made from trees. There I can wait for the broadside shot. However if I was to walk up some deer or pigs I guarentee you I will have a Trophy Bonded Bearclaw, Nosler Partition, or a Woodleigh Soft in that 308.
Make no mistake those premium bullets will work great on the broadside shot too.

I agree 100%

As Jack O'Connor stated so well, and it bears repeating here, "Experience can be narrow, though deep."

By this time I've exceeded the number of elk my great uncle killed over a long career, but most of those elk of his were taken from a stand located near an established game trail, and most of his shots were easy lung-shot opportunities, inside of 100 yards. He hunted the same area and in the same manner from 1946 until 1994, and with the same Savage Model 99 300 Savage for that entire time, and during the last twenty years of his career, the same Federal 'red-box' 180 gr. factory load. When he could no longer hunt, he asked me if I wanted to buy his rifle, and I couldn't lay down the money fast enough! That Savage is in my safe to this day, and I treasure it. I also have the last box of ammo he used, and it has three live rounds left in it. Out of that one box of shells, he took ten bulls with ten shots, used seven rounds (over at least a ten-year period!) to sight-in, with three left over. That was his elk program!

And it worked for him. Talk anything bigger or more precise, bullet construction, etc, and it just didn't register. It didn't have to, either, because for the way he hunted, his rifle and ammo just-plain WORKED. But as I found out after a few years of my own elk hunting -- which was quite different than Uncle's stand hunting -- the ideal all-around elk rifle burned more powder than a 300 Savage, and required tougher bullets that worked under ALL conditions, not just ne-plus-ultra, beau-ideal 100 yard lung shots at unstressed spikes and cows.

All-around bullets (and rifles!) need to work when conditions are at their WORST, not when they're at their best. Elk are unpredictable, and absolutely uncooperative as well! And that's the part that a lot of guys just don't get.............

AD

Folks,

You need to hunt with a bullet that will work for you in the worst possible scenario which may not be the bullet that causes instant kills on broadside lung shots on 150 pound animals.

Regards,

Mark

Fred ----- I agree with your premise. It takes all kinds of conditions to truly test a bullet. However in my view it takes more than a Deer sized animal to really test a bullet. ----- Case in point. I use a 270 grain North Fork bullet with my .358 STA rifles for the larger game. The reason is Mike Brady says that particular bullet is made to be somewhat tougher than his normal .358 bullets making it ideal for tougher game. My son shot a big 5 X 5 Bull Elk through the shoulders at 125 yards and the same bullet penetrated through the Bull and struck the head of a bedded down cow, completely hidden from the shooter, some twenty five yards behind the Bull. We dug the bullet out of the head of the cow buried in the off side skull. I said, WOW what penetration. ----- I took the same bullet and load to Africa and shot a Kongoni in the shoulder and before I examined the animal stated to the PH that I was sure that was a clean pass thru bullet. Upon close inspection the bullet had gone through the shoulder and into the neck bone and lodged in the hide on the off side. Now the Kongoni was less than half the size of the Bull Elk, yet the bullet did not pass thru. Maybe this a testament to the toughness of African game in general, but for sure it points that each animal, shot, bullet, are all individual cases, that one can view and then try to draw an intellegent conclusion from. Sometimes it all figures in a straight line, sometimes not. Good shooting.

Fred-I agree 100% also.I certainly don't get to pick my shots.You take whats given or pass and thats why I choose to use the bullets I do and also I might add,it makes one heck of a difference in bullet choice when your Elk is standing on a ridge with a 70% grade and a mile down.

I want what works on "All" angles...

Good post...Jayco

I think a guy who has shot 100 deer regardless of the method (tree stand, walking, etc.) is a hell of a good resource on what works for deer. But probably not much of a resource on anything else different from deer.

quote:

All-around bullets (and rifles!) need to work when conditions are at their WORST, not when they're at their best.
AD

I couldn't agree more.

I load premium bullets for when things go WRONG, rather than when they go RIGHT.

A premium will still work on a broadside shot pn a moose, but a non premim may not work so well when a not so great shot presents itself. I like the extra insurance, nad at so littl ecost, it is worth it...

quote:

I think a guy who has shot 100 deer regardless of the method (tree stand, walking, etc.) is a hell of a good resource on what works for deer. But probably not much of a resource on anything else different from deer.

I agree w/ AZ on this one. Ayone who has taken 100s of animals regardless of his methods has a good bit of experience and can certainly be a good source of advice for new comers to the sport.

The only problem I have w/ the question Fred, I find it hard to believe that anyone who has taken that many animals has done it in the same instances or circumstances everytime.

I've personally hunted about seven or so different NA big game animals and while I do like to hunt from Climbing stands quite a bit, I've probably taken a large percentage of them from walking, standing, laying, kneeling, different elevations, etc., etc. I guess it's just hard for me to believe that anyone whos been at it for years and has succesfully taken that many animals has done it in the same exact fashion everytime, at least I haven't come across anyone who has.

I guess if someone did take every animal in the exact way every time that his experience would be limited to that type of instance but, even then he'd have a good bit of experience under his belt.

Reloader

quote:

if you shoot 100 deer from a stand, all broadside shots, how much experience do you really have? A

About 99 more experiences than a lot of internet posters regarding arms and ammo for the subject.

Your point is valid as well.....a course in statistics would reveal that even this person's views are not totally concrete.

Don't tell him that however.

quote:

if you shoot 100 deer from a stand, all broadside shots, how much experience do you really have?

You'll have a good bit of 'shooting' experience but probably not much 'hunting' experience. Good practise for learning shot control on game.

Nothing against stands mind you, and I'm thinking along the lines of the elevated blind Texas kinda thing. As seen on Buckmasters on ESPN or some similar program, where Bubba is shooting as opposed to actually hunting.

It's very different from what I'm used to in the deer, elk, bear and feral hog hunting I do out West.

Bubba would die of a massive heart attack from walking up and down these steep mountains. We'd have to quarter him to get him out for burial.

Totally agree Skinner, that's why you see this or that poster saying, "what's all the fuss about rifle weight?" Because they only carry it to the blind/stand. "yeah all I need is a NBT", because all of their shots are 250yds, broadside from a treestand. Nothing against that style of "hunting" but I can see how certain guys get their opinions, from a narrow experience level. Like you said, walk up & down a few vertical miles of mountains for 6-7 days & then tell me you are willing to pass up a 1/4 away shot on the only bull elk you've seen & he's @ 75yds & there's a really nasty, dark blowdown 200yds downhill, and, and.

quote:

I think a guy who has shot 100 deer regardless of the method (tree stand, walking, etc.) is a hell of a good resource on what works for deer.

I'd have to disagree. I normally shoot 30 or so deer a year. The caliber and bullet I use the most is a 22-250 40 grain B-tip. It works great for me but I wouldn't recommend it for most people. The country I hunt is full of brush with thorns and healthy rattlesnakes. I don't like tracking deer in this environment so unless it is a trophy buck it gets a 40 grain b-tip in the neck. Very effective inside 200 yards but you have to be a crack shot.

Fred if this were an election campain I would vote for you. But I would like to add that when leading horses or their asses to water they may not be thirsty for knowledge. There also comes a point in time when you realize that some people simply want to "discuss" the so called issues to death. I suggest we all once again read John Pondoro Taylor's epic work African Rifles and Cartridges once again and yes there will be a test afterwards. Wouldn't it be nice if there was only one answer to the "What id life" question... how boring.

Fred, I wonder how many guys actually practise their riflery under field conditions ? And work on speed too, because many of the shots on game out here are gonna have a very short window of opportunity.

I'm an avid dirt clod shooter in the offseason, uphill, dowhill, sideways across a canyon, etc, etc. Just pick em' out as I'm meandering along. Offhand, sitting, prone, resting off trees, my pack, boulders, etc. Safe in the areas I'm in, but not everybody has that.

At the range, shooting a gong at 200 yards offhand helps a lot too. As does informal rimfire silhouette.

Thanks for the vote 308sako, but I would rather be king than president, so I'll have to pass.
Skinner, right again. This chimes in w/ the other thread about submoa rifles. Most guys don't shoot enough to be able to hit much past 200yds anyway. If you pound ground long enough, anywhere in the world, you'll find the classic broadside shot just isn't available all of the time. Yeah, fly across the pond, spend $8-$10K on a hunt of a lifetime & then tell yor PH, "sorry got to pass that big ole 60" Kudu bull @ 75 yds cause he's 1/4ing away & I'm shooting my superpooper magnum using CoorsLight beer can bullets". Really, come on guys! Can your bullet/cartridge/rifle combo kill humanely from any reasonable angle and reasonable distance (50-350yds)? I would hate to make the shot of my life & then have the bullet fail to drop him quickly & lost/crippled animal. Better bullets, better hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
Can your bullet/cartridge/rifle combo kill humanely from any reasonable angle and reasonable distance (50-350yds)? I would hate to make the shot of my life & then have the bullet fail to drop him quickly & lost/crippled animal. Better bullets, better hunting.

Depends on a lot of factors. I stand hunt deer back home for a number of reasons, the primary one being the owner will not let you still hunt if there is more than two hunters in the area. The other is the area is pretty full of downed trees. Getting up above it all, even 6 feet, can clear up your field of view.

For what I hunt, whitetail deer, I don't need a premium bullet. The cheap Hornady's work fine. If I was going on a once in a lifetime elk hunt, then I would be using the best bullet I could.

However, some here get to hunt elk every year. Letting a shot go by isn't that big of a deal. Also, they may have a different style of hunting. Arguing about the "BEST ALL AROUND BULLET" is like argueing which is better, a .270 or 30-06. Both are great for wide applications, and each do certain things better.

quote:

Arguing about the "BEST ALL AROUND BULLET" is like argueing which is better, a .270 or 30-06. Both are great for wide applications, and each do certain things better.

You can say that again!

Reloader

quote:

if you shoot 100 deer from a stand, all broadside shots, how much experience do you really have?

I understand what you are getting at here and agree in general with the premise of "having only one kind of experience". A mile wide and a inch deep.

Having said that, I have killed truck loads of bucks from a climbing stand, and have a question of my own. What makes (some) people think that hunting from a stand "Always" affords you the perfect broadside shot, at a known distance???

I would have to say I have taken more quartering shots (many quarting toward), & difficult angles. Unlike some popular opinion, I did not have all day to make/place the shot either.

Not all stand hunting is like the "Texas ranch hunts you see on TV"! There is no feeder 50 yards away where I hunt

Experience's vary. I have not been to Africa (yet) or even out West (yet), but I will put my "deer" hunting experience up against anyones.
One thing that cracks me up when people get on the "experienced" trip; is when most of them do it all with a centerfire rifle. (Big chalenge )
I do it with a Bow, smokepole, revolver, rifles, shotguns, rimfires etc, etc.

I don't mean to come of cocky or boastfull, but I do tire of seeing "deer" hunters be looked down someones nose at on these forums.

I do agree in premise though with Fred, allen, and others on most of the points.
I also agree with what "AnotherAZWriter" said in his post!!
But I would add, (and quoting Arnold) If it bleeds, I can kill it.

quote:

What makes (some) people think that hunting from a stand "Always" affords you the perfect broadside shot, at a known distance???

I would have to say I have taken more quartering shots (many quarting toward), & difficult angles. Unlike some popular opinion, I did not have all day to make/place the shot either.

Not all stand hunting is like the "Texas ranch hunts you see on TV"! There is no feeder 50 yards away where I hunt

quote:

One thing that cracks me up when people get on the "experienced" trip; is when most of them do it all with a centerfire rifle. (Big chalenge )
I do it with a Bow, smokepole, revolver, rifles, shotguns, rimfires etc, etc.

Very Good Points.

Reloader

Mark, it's probably because of all those deer hunting shows. That's all you see is the guy sitting there waiting for, it seems like 15min., then he gets the perfect broadside shot. I still hunt or spot & stalk so for me the concept is only what I have seen others do on film or TV. The few times I have set up on a ridge or meadow I pretty much layout the ranges I may shoot & would have time to wait the animal out if they show.
BTW, not looking down my nose at any hunter, just an observation that I have seen after talking w/ a lot of diff. hunters & reading about many more. Which is why I asked the question about experience.

Fredj338,

I totally understand and my post was not directed toward you personally or of the thread in general. I was just making an observation based on my own experiences. I do a lot of stalking, still hunting, etc myself, to be "real" about it. I let the terrain, time of day, weather, etc, decide my meathod.
I totally agree with you though on the T.V. shows, personally I think they give most, if not all forms of hunting a bad name. I understand that these guys put in Hours upon Hours to get 20 mins. of "exciting" (for lack of a better word) footage. That is assuming they are not canned hunts (and I may be assuming a lot there)

I'm continually amused by the hand-wringing of many deer hunters on these forums regarding what bullet to use... good Lord, whitetails just aren't that tough! Any standard cup bullet will work. Pick one, shut up and go hunt! When it comes to BIG, big game it's another matter in which case I can find no good reason not to use "premiums." I call premiums "1% bullets" ie, they're not needed 99% of the time, but when they are they're generally needed badly. Agonizing about a few bucks more for a premium is false economy.

I had several dinners with a 'hunter' last year in Vic Falls that was staying at the same place we were. This guy has hunted more species in more places than 99% of the people here. He was even featured recently on this forum for having taken a rare and awesome trophy...

But he knew about as much about hunting and shooting as my mom, and that ain't much. He kept talking about how he wanted to hunt one of those "white lions, like bit that feller in the circus." And he told stories of the "Rainbuck" (waterbuck) he passed up in RSA, and his PH kept telling him it was a 2 year old animal, not 16 inches long, but it looked good to him, and he wished he would've shot it, cause he hasn't seen one since.

He'd just gotten finished shooting a Lion in Zim with his "sevm wethby." He liked it alot better than anything else cause it "shot like litenin'" and "hit like thunder" and he thought those 150 gr bullets were probably getting over 4000 fps, although he'd never chronographed them...

My point is, a person can have ALL SORTS of experience, but still be an idiot. Likewise, some people learn more in 1 hunting trip than others do in a lifetime. Something to keep in mind.

quote:

Originally posted by Brad:
I'm continually amused by the hand-wringing of many deer hunters on these forums regarding what bullet to use... good Lord, whitetails just aren't that tough! Any standard cup bullet will work. Pick one, shut up and go hunt!

Brad: you're right, of course, but cut us some slack. Hunting and shooting deer is our passion. And we only get to DO it a very small percentage of the time. The rest of the year we are thinking about it and planning for it. Golfers worry about the latest club and if it will help their game..not. Fishermen worry about the latest lure or bait and if it will improve their chances. Planning and worrying is half the fun. You can sit there and be amused and feel superior if you want too, but please don't spoil the fun for the rest of us...

quote:

Not all stand hunting is like the "Texas ranch hunts you see on TV"! There is no feeder 50 yards away where I hunt

Not many Texas ranch hunts are like the Texas ranch hunts you see on TV either

quote:

Originally posted by olarmy:

Brad: you're right, of course, but cut us some slack. Hunting and shooting deer is our passion. And we only get to DO it a very small percentage of the time. The rest of the year we are thinking about it and planning for it. Golfers worry about the latest club and if it will help their game..not. Fishermen worry about the latest lure or bait and if it will improve their chances. Planning and worrying is half the fun. You can sit there and be amused and feel superior if you want too, but please don't spoil the fun for the rest of us...

Ol Army, "cussin n' discussin" is one thing and I'd be the last one to want to squash a friendly discussion no matter how irrelevant. Wringing one's hand's over something trivial is another... I can't abide worrying over such minutia. Call me old fashioned.

Hey Fred, First off, I'd say you have been mislead by the TV shows, the people you talked to and books you read.

quote:

...the concept is only what I have seen others do on film or TV. The few times I have set up on a ridge or meadow I pretty much layout the ranges I may shoot & would have time to wait the animal out if they show. BTW, not looking down my nose at any hunter, just an observation that I have seen after talking w/ a lot of diff. hunters & reading about many more.

The key phrase in the above is the "if they show" and you are absolutely correct about that.

What has mis-lead you into thinking Stand Hunting is easy is all the above and your prefered hunting style of "spot and stalk". If a person wanted to word that style in a negative way they could call it random roaming around until you accidentally find something to shoot, and that would be just as mis-leading.

A dedicated Stand Hunter doesn't just go out and hang a Stand the day before he goes Hunting and then hunts out of it. The process takes the entire Off Season of observing the Deer. To be really good at it, you have to not only Pattern the Deer movements, but determine which of those areas has the HUGE Trophy Bucks we all enjoy. Crop rotation, natural food amounts, weather, other land uses on adjacent properties, and the change in people moving about the area are just some of the things that affect where and when the Deer "prefer" to move.

You can still go hang the Stand without ever having been on the land and may kill a Whopper, just as you might do the same thing with the Spot and Stalk style on unfamiliar land. But your chances are significantly reduced when compared to a person who uses the entire year to actually "hunt".

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
...if you shoot 100 deer from a stand, all broadside shots, how much experience do you really have? All the shots are broadside, usually @ measured distances, how can you really evaluate your your equip. if you don't truely test it?

In order for a person to get 100 broadside shots, then he actually has lots and lots of experience of seeing the Game from other angles. So, "if" you only count the 100 shots he took in that situation then you would have to be ignoring the other kills he made. He got to see many(hundreds or thousands of) Deer from all 360deg while he was waiting for those 100 to be perfectly broadside. And if he was like me he went on and killed a bunch of them that were not exactly broadside. Then when those 100 (or many more) presented a fine broadside shot, those were killed as well.

And he may have been using different cartridges, calibers and bullets during those "100" broadside kills which gives him a much larger experience base than someone who only carries a 300WinMag and/or a 338WinMag with one style bullet.

quote:

If you shoot say, 25 deer from diff. distances, diff. angles, front 1/4, rear 1/4, full frontal, etc., isn't that going to give you a better picture of your bullet/cartridge performance?...

There are about 270deg of "good" shooting opportunity on a Deer and most Game. If you believe it is OK to Gut Shoot and shoot at the Wrong End, like the guys who say they don't intend to pass on ANY shot opportunity, then there are 360deg available to them.
---

So, I'd say a guy that has "100 broadside shots" has a huge amount of experience "if" you also include the other kills he obviously made along the way.

Brad, I have a good friend and went on an annual salmon fishing trip with him for years. That was back in the days when we could keep 3 salmon a day and it was easy fishing. I used to buy good fishing line and Bob would get a spool of line from K Mart that looked like 20,000 yards and cost $4.99. Okay I am exagerating a bit on the amount. I liken this scenario to premium bullets. I would tell him that it was poor economy. I always felt that my link to a game animal I am hunting is mainly in 3 things, my rifle, my scope and my ammo and principally in the bullet. The line is basically the same, it was the link to the fish. Bob said the line had always served him well and he saved $10 or so. Then on one trip he hooked a monster king salmon, we got a glimpse of it near the boat and it was over 60 pounds. The fish saw us and headed for Japan. As the line was diminishing on the reel, Bob tightened the drag and twang. Worst case situation and his line failed. I want your 1% bullet with me just like the 1% line.

Following up on Hot Core's comments, I was thinking back to all the deer I've shot out of a "stand" of one kind or another. I'm figuring that the total is about 30 or 40.

To the best of my recollection, less than half of them were classic "broadside" shots. Many of them were at some pretty steep angles, either quartering in or quartering away. So, using that ratio, a stand hunter would have to get maybe 200 - 225 kills to have taken 100 broadsides. Sounds like significant experience to me.

Now HotCore, don't be defensive, again I am not talking down one form of hunting over another. It's just so many guys have such strong opinioins about this bullet or that cartridge & you start to wonder how much diff. game shooting situations they have had to form their opinions. I know you guys have killed way more deer than I ever will, I'm just trying to see where everyone is coming from when I read the NBT is perfect the NP is perfect, etc.. Not that any of this means anything, but hell, hunting season isn't here yet!

quote:

Not that any of this means anything, but hell, hunting season isn't here yet!

Amen!!

quote:

quote:
Not that any of this means anything, but hell, hunting season isn't here yet!


Amen!!

Exactly. We're all like bucks in the pre-rut. All ready to go but having to wait for some action. Nothing to do but butt some heads.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
Now HotCore, don't be defensive, again I am not talking down one form of hunting over another.

Hey Fred, Me defensive? I do understand you were not intentionally talking down another form of hunting - really. But I do believe the quotes I pulled out and responded to could have been misleading to someone who has not read a lot of your posts. With that in mind, I just offered an "opinion" about Stand Hunting that has a bit of experience behind it.

That Stand Experience does not mean that I don't have experience in Still Hunting(Spot & Stalk), Hound Hunting, Man Drives and even some good old "Roaming Around (until I find something) Hunting". Hopefully without having to resort to "bragging", that comes out in my posts when just discussing the issues.

quote:

It's just so many guys have such strong opinioins about this bullet or that cartridge & you start to wonder how much diff. game shooting situations they have had to form their opinions.

I do understand exactly where you are coming from and wonder the same thing from time to time. If I can read enough of a person's posts, I generally get an idea about their actual experience. I feel sure you realize I in no way think of your experience as I do that of lets say the arrogant, loud-mouth, blow-hard and the merry band of Stooges.

It is really quite obvious that if it weren't for their Guides finding the Game for them(doing the actual hunting), getting them close enough so they can take a shot since they believe accuracy isn't important(doing the stalking and letting them follow along) and trying to provide a good clean kill-shot opportunity other than Gut Shooting or shooting at the Wrong End, then some of the people that frequent this Board just wouldn't have much experience at all. But you really have to wade through a lot of their posts to pick up on it.

quote:

...I read the NBT is perfect the NP is perfect, etc. ...

I saw those threads and stayed out just to see who actually had enough experience to come to the defense of AIU and Reloader. As usual though, once the arrogant loud-mouth blow-hard got to spewing his foolishness, the Stooges came out to support him and showed their limited experience(?) as well. Pitiful!

The biggest mistake that AIU and Reloader made was thinking they could actually "discuss" the topic in a civil manner with some of those posters. All they were interested in was talking down-to AIU and Reloader as if since they had spoken, there was no need for any additional input. Hopefully AIU and Reloader learned to just address the foolishness of their posts, since they are really more interested in Preaching than discussing.

I see another post of yours I want to respond to, but am running short on time right now.

Best of luck to you this Season.

Hey Fred, There were actually two more.

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
... walk up & down a few vertical miles of mountains for 6-7 days & then tell me you are willing to pass up a 1/4 away shot on the only bull elk you've seen & he's @ 75yds & there's a really nasty, dark blowdown 200yds downhill, and, and. ...

The part I missed is how the original posts made by AIU and Reloader ended up encompassing all Game and all Hunting situations. Perhaps I had blinders on and missed that part.

On the above, my question is what does doing the "walk up & down a few vertical miles of mountains for 6-7 days" have to do with the decision on whether or not to take the shot?

As for the "1/4 away shot on the only bull elk you've seen", I can see where that would be a fine shot for a well designed deep penetrating bullet that opens to say 1.5x the bullet diameter. It is not a shot I would want to take with a lot of bullets that work extremely well on other Game, Whitetails, Hogs, Black Bears and I would suspect work just fine on Mulies, Antelope, etc.

And we get to "he's @ 75yds & there's a really nasty, dark blowdown 200yds downhill, and, and." Is that tooooo long of a shot for you Fred?
---

quote:

Most guys don't shoot enough to be able to hit much past 200yds anyway. If you pound ground long enough, anywhere in the world, you'll find the classic broadside shot just isn't available all of the time.

Who is arguing that point?

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Yeah, fly across the pond, spend $8-$10K on a hunt of a lifetime & then tell yor PH, "sorry got to pass that big ole 60" Kudu bull @ 75 yds cause he's 1/4ing away & I'm shooting my superpooper magnum using CoorsLight beer can bullets".

Where can I get some of the "CoorsLight beer can bullets"? I'm sure I've never hunted with any of them and would like to see some.

quote:

Can your bullet/cartridge/rifle combo kill humanely from any reasonable angle and reasonable distance (50-350yds)?

Best question I "remember" from any of these recent threads.

As for me, I can say "No" for some of the shot opportunities I've had. I'd guess that maybe 5% of all the Game I've seen while hunting had to be passed on because I was not willing to take the shot with the cartridge/bullet combination I had at that time. In those situations, I simply did not shoot, but gave a BIG Thanks for having seen those animals anyhow. Had I been using a Premium bullet, I feel sure that of the 5% I passed on, Premiums in an appropriate Cartridge would "probably" have made it to the animals and killed 95% of them. But, if I'd only been using "one style of Premium" for five decades, my actual first-hand experience base on all the other bullets I've used over those years would be extremely limited or non-existant.

Nothing at all wrong with good old Standard Grade bullets when:

1. The appropriate Caliber is used.
2. The appropriate Weight is used.
3. The appropriate Impact Velocity is used.
4. The appropriate Shot Placement is used.

Not to mis-lead anyone, I have also used a considerable number of Partitions on Game with various calibers over the years too, from 85gr-225gr.

quote:

I would hate to make the shot of my life & then have the bullet fail to drop him quickly & lost/crippled animal. Better bullets, better hunting.

Me too!

quote:

1/4 away shot on the only bull elk you've seen

Isn't this the shot where you shoot him in the hips and anchor him, then move around and put the killing shot into his heart?

Experience also means that you know more than one way to get the hide off the felid.

Ok, Fred bashing time, I can deal with that.
Yes I can make a 75yd shot, but wouldn't want to do it w/ a NBT under .375. Read the whole post, the copmment on guys shooting ability refers to another thread about 1/2moa rifles.
The 6-7 days & vert. mile comment has to do w/ the effort made in pursing game & you really don't want to pass a shot that isn't "perfect". I've been w/ guys who have actually done this, I've actually done it my earlier hunting years.
You guys have taken the "100 deer" comment a bit to literally, maybe I should have said 20-30? The beer can bullets goes back to the ole SMK threads, for the guys that want 1/2moa rifles but many can't shoot in the field. Anything else? I wear boxers not briefs, I drive a Dodge not a Chevy, any more questions?
The whole problem w/ this or that guy "sharing" his opinion about bullets is that there are guys who do not have the xperience & read this stuff.

1. The appropriate Caliber is used.
2. The appropriate Weight is used.
3. The appropriate Impact Velocity is used.
4. The appropriate Shot Placement is used.

You points are all valid, unfortunately there are the many that will not do any of the above, but just shoot the bullet most accurate in their rifles regardless of caliber, bullet placement, IV or shot placement.
BTW, Rupert, no that isn't the point where I shoot him in the hip, but I have passed up a big bull a time or two because I didn't have a bullet/cart. I thought could reach vitals from an extreme angle & passed the shot. So liking to learn from experience, I carry a rifle/cart. bullet combo that I know can get it done from, what was that I said, any reasonable angle. Because some times there is no other way to "get the hide off the field".
HC, I have no problem w/ a good discussion, but if you want to discuss my positions, take my post apart, etc. e-mail me direct instead of clogging up the thread.

Fred,

I certainly wasn't meaning to bash on you, and I apologize profusely if that's the way it came across. I was noting that we all tend, probably qwuite properly, to think in terms of a 1-shot kill. I know I was that way for a lot of years (and still mostly am), until I was presented with just the shot described; the kudu was about 80 yards out and facing away with about 1/4 turn so I could see along the body. I'd stalked that guy for a couple of hours and he was obviously getting tired of it - another few moments and he was going to be gone for good. I had a solid rest, so I whacked him at the spine where it passes over the hip bone and he went down. By the time he'd gotten his front legs back under him, I'd moved off to the side and could do a proper heart shot.

I certainly agree with your 4 points, but I also think that with enough experience, a hunter learns to take more shots than just a simple broadside heart-lung shot.

This certainly doesn't mean, though, that I'm not willing to pass on shots where I don't think I can kill the animal properly and swiftly, because I have and will pass again. However, I do think that plenty of hunting experience in different places on different animals gives one more options than can be learned from 100 deer from a stand.

The original questions reminds me of an evaluation I often find myself making during employment interviews. Does the candidate really have 20 years of experience or does he have one year of experience repeated 20 times?

Exactly my point SBT.
Rupert, no offense taken. Your last point is kind of what I am driving at, if you hunt enough different game in diff. conditions, you get a vastly diff. exp. level about what works better or worse. HC you notice I did not say BEST.