quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
In the third post on this thread Cal you acknowledged that you never checked any references, then go on to refer to the representations of an agent that you have previously castigated for having a contract you feel is unreasonable and who you obviously do not trust. Seriously, any hint, suggestion or even allusion that Mark is in any way responsible is simply disingenuous at best. You paid your money, took your chances (apparently without much diligence) and came up empty, not sure why this always has to be about someone else being at fault or deserving any blame.

Mike:

If Cal had signed the contract, he would have not received any more information about this hunt than he already received - the "sale" was completed. And Mark did get 10% - which is "full" commission for many booking agents (the one I used last month told me he gets 10%).

My first post to this thread was to recount that the outfitter I use in ID has been 100% for me - but this year they struck out. In other words, that is hunting. But when Cal posted that comment about "expecting a 6x6" on a hunt in Idaho for $3750 it was clear to that when it comes to elk hunting, Mark is completely unconnected from reality or maybe dollar signs clouded his vision; who knows?

The fact is Mark told him that he should expect a 6x6 tells me I won't ever be booking an elk hunt with Mark - contract or no contract. In fact, I would bet serious money Mark has not hunted with this outfit and has no idea what the operation is all about.


Sorry, you are dead wrong here. Yea, Cal didn't do DD - he trusted that Mark did that. The fact Cal didn't want to sign the contract has no bearing on the outcome of the hunt: it would have turned out EXACTLY the same whether he had signed it or not. Do you not agree?


I am headed out for a hunt...good luck to those MN hunters this weekend!

Here is what I find ironic Cal. You want to complain about the information you got from Mark in terms of the influence that information played in your decision to book the hunt, but you have made it abundantly clear that you do not trust Mark. Why would anyone rely on any representation or information provided by someone that they apparently do not trust without doing their own due diligence? In your moose hunting example, if someone I did not trust (whether my lack of trust was justified or not) gave me information on where to hunt huge moose in Alaska, that information would have zero influence on my decision to do the hunt or not do the hunt. If anything, it would make me more cautious about doing the hunt.

Mike, my mate, we are at impasse and further discussion will result in an argument. We just see it differently and disagree based on our viewpoints, that's all.
Cheers,
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Mike, my mate, we are at impasse and further discussion will result in an argument. We just see it differently and disagree based on our viewpoints, that's all.
Cheers,
Cal

Well said. Take care.

Not meaning to stir this discussion any farther south than it has already went, but in looking at the various comments from everyone, including Mr. Pappas, a few points come to mind.

1. Mr. Pappas, was this your first elk hunt?

I ask this because I remember quite vividly my first three elk hunts, in 1992,'93 and 94. One big factor in elk hunting deals with access.

You were hunting Public Land, what is the success rate for hunters hunting Moose/Caribou or Grizzly Bear, within 20 or 30 miles of Anchorage or Juneau?

There is and can be a big difference between hunting Public Land versus Private, especially here in the Lower 48. There are a lot more hunters accessing Public Land down here than up there.

My family doctor spent a lot of time this past July and August traveling between Young county and Unit 36 in New Mexico out close to Ruidoso NM. hoping to fill an Archery Elk Tag, and he did.

I doubt he would have had that success during gun season.

2. The opinions of folks that are Residents of a state are tainted somewhat, because they have a lot more flexibility and contacts than a Non-Resident.

I ate Tag Soup in 1992 and 1993. By 1994 I have learned a few things, one being that at that time in Colorado I could legally have both a bull tag and a cow tag, I shot my first elk that year. In 1995 I did the exact same thing. In 1996 I killed my first bull elk a 5x5, I forget the title you bestowed on 5x5's, but it was a legal bull, and ever since I have shot cows.

3. While the choice of gun used was yours to make, and you are both comfortable and proficient with it, you did handicap yourself. I did that in 1994 when I decided that I had worked with my iron sighted .35 Whelen enough to take it opening morning of my hunt that year, instead of my Mark V .300 Weatherby with aq 2.5 x 7 Weatherby Premier scope and flat assed missed a truly good 6x6 bull at 200 yards or so 5 times, it was the best bull I ever had a chance at, but I handicapped myself.

4. The guide probably should have discussed the way the hunt would be done more fully with you. From my experience, on both sides of the issue, hunters and guides, when discussing a possible booking get to doing more talking and guessing than actually listening to what either one is saying.

Just my opinion from my experience and conversations I have had with a few hunters, a Public Land rifle Elk hunt in the Rocky Mountain states, to be successful, is going to require a pack in of 5 miles or more from the nearest vehicular access point.

Others will have different opinions/beliefs, but again, from what I have seen, if it is Public Land, it will be swarming with the Public.

CHC:
Thanks for your questions.
1.Yes, my first elk hunt. Many, but not all, of public land in Alaska that is close to population or access centers have permits limited to draw to keep both hunting pressure down and to keep the animal populations level.

2. The title I repeated, not bestowed, was a 5x5 is a settle for bull, i.e. if one does not get a coveted 6x6 one setlles for a 5x5. As I have not expereince in elk hunting (and still don't), I wrote what elk hunters mentioned to me. It is, however, a matter of opinion.

3. I was told shooting would be close and the double would work fine. My experience with doubles is posted above. My longest shot to take a caribou was 195 yards, a few at 125, some less than 100, and most of my double rifle kills are between 8 and 50 yards. My .450-400 has a good scope on it but others I've hunted with have only the original open sights. My longest shot with open sights was 95 yards--a Zim wildebeast with my .600 Wilkes.

With my scoped .450-400 I've shot leopard, lion, hippo, croc, cape and water buffalo, caribou, plains game, etc., and with open sighted doubles I have taken grizzly, moose, caribou, cape and water buffalo, bison, hippo, and plains game. It's what I do.

4. I agree with your statements.

On public land, the Denali Highway is open to many with a permit but lots of permits are given away. It is called a Tier 2 permit and I drew one in 1994 and there were so many hutners, atvs, shooting from the road, I never applied for a Tier 2 permit after that. That is my only road hunt in my life, until my Idaho experience.

I trust I asnwered your question. If I need to clarify, just let me know.
Cheers,
Cal

My name is Rick Johnson. I am the owner and operator of Selkirk Guiding and Outfitting.

Let me first say thank you to Mr. Pappas for the complimentary things he had to say about our operation. We are not perfect in any aspect of our operation, but we strive to provide the best experience we possibly can. It means quite a bit to hear the positive words you had to say about us.

Mr. Pappas, if either of us could go back in time and prevent your hunt with us I'm sure we would. I assure you, your disappointment in your experience with us is surpassed by our disappointment in your hunt with us.

Gentlemen, I could write a book about why this hunt took place the way it did, but I won't. What I will say is this. Free range, tough country, tough terrain, hard nosed do whatever it takes elk hunting is not for everyone. If you want to carry your weapon in not 1, but 2 cases while hunting, this is not the place for you. If it's more important to you to return to the truck in order to dry your gun rather than accept my offer of a Zeiss lens wipe to clean your scope up and keep hunting, this is not the place for you. If you would call off a promising evening stalk (where the guide smells elk and knows full well it's possibly the 6x7 bull that he had you within 75 yards of just that morning) due to having to cross too many dead falls and there being no logging road to get you to the elk, elk hunting is not for you. Especially considering this took place on a giant flat with absolutely zero incline. If you would request to sit at an evening feeding ground, only to leave said feeding ground with well over an hour of shooting light left, free range hunting is not for you. Especially if you did this twice! If at 50 yards, you completely miss a 12x12 target 1 out of 2 shots, you are not prepared to hunt here.

Mr. Pappas, there is a huge difference between walking and chasing elk wherever you have to go to get it done. My primary focus is the safety of my clients. Sir, I made the decision that I was not going to put you or myself in harms way by dumping off the side of a mountain. You have called into question my integrity, and that hurts. But, I will not be dragged into a pissing match. I will simply say, I believe I made the best decisions I could based on my observations.

I could go on forever but that will resolve nothing. Free-range big game hunting in the lower 48 is not for everyone. Free range hunting in North Idaho is for even fewer. If I'd known then what I know now, I would have never booked Mr. Pappas to hunt with us. And to be fair, I understand why he would say the same thing.

For those of you that truly have an interest in our operation, I would gladly offer up the contact info for every single client we took elk hunting this season. Feel free to contact us from our website at www.selkirkoutfitting.com
For those of you that just want to let your opinion be known without all the facts, feel free to carry on with business as usual.

In the meantime, vote Trump, cross your fingers he doesn't get us blown to smithereens, pray for the youth, and happy hunting.


Rick
www.selkirkoutfitting.com

quote:

I fear however, you cannot win this battle as you have already been convicted by trial by internet... The simple fact is, you sold a hunt and didn't provide an elk for the paying customer, and you're an elk outfitter. I've been in your shoes and I do not envy you at all

He "won" a big chunk of the battle by just showing up and posting his side....that's rare enough around here sometimes. We often don't here from the outfitter or booking agent at all during these threads. Both sides are needed to paint a picture of what happened. I'm sure they both could have done things differently. Not every outfitter is meant for every client and vise versa.

Rick,
I don't know you from Adam either. But your account is valid and timely in light of the debate I've been leading on accuratereloading for some time about what constitutes Fair Chase Free Range hunting. Alot of the guys on AR have no clue of Fair Chase/Free Range and worse yet lack basic critical thinking skills to comprehend such.

I lived in Wyoming for 13 years and hunted hard in the Salt River Range and Bridger Teton National Forest with my own horses and a mule. Also hunted bear in Idaho. Both places are tough on people, their physical and mental skills, and equipment.

Your account is spot on about free range hunting! Keep up the good work.


"Politicians, attorney's, and shooters of wildlife behind high fences. Take em all down to south Texas and put em inside a high fenced escape proof enclosure without their guns and let the rattlesnakes cull em out."

Rick, thank you for filling in the missing but important details.

quote:

I trust I asnwered your question.

Yes you did, Thank You, I appreciate it.

I have not yet read the other responses that have been give after yours.

I feel the biggest factor with you experience lies within the concept that in the lower 48, regardless of the species hunted, except for limited access/limited draw areas, Public Land is that and it gets hammered.

Just seeing game on much of the Public Land in the lower 48 during open hunting season is a trophy itself.

I was extremely fortunate in getting my bull elk and the biggest muley I have ever killed on Public Land in Western Colorado, but it was just a fluke that the area the outfitter I hunt with found an area that was difficult to access.

In fact those two animals were the only ones I have killed on Public Land during the 12 or 13 elk hunts I have done since 1992.

Sorry for your experience, I have hunted Idaho one time, back in 2010 I did a black bear hunt out from Elk City and did manage to get a bear on Public Land. There did not seem to be much or any hunting pressure but there were a lot of bicycle and 4 wheeler traffic in the area which did cause concern.

Hopefully this whole discussion will be more informative than and you will try elk hunting again.

Best of Luck on your future hunts.

quote:

I fear however, you cannot win this battle as you have already been convicted by trial by internet.

I for one disagree with your statement quoted above.

Having seen this basic issue from both sides for a good while now, the biggest problems I have noticed/experienced in such situations revolve around expectations/communications between all parties involved.

I do not know either Mr. Pappas or Mr. Johnson, but I choose to believe both acted in good faith, but things just did not jell.

Mr. Pappas posted his report and observations from his standpoint, Mr. Johnson has been gracious enough to state his view of the situation. Since they are the two parties involved I see no profit for any of the rest of us to crucify anyone.

What happened, happened. lessons were learned and observations from both sides have been passed along that others may benefit/learn from.

Well Said CHC...

Yes, well stated Crazy.

Communication on expectations from both parties before, during and even after the hunt, regardless which way it is going is paramount.

It seems that it was a bit lacking here, so yes a lesson for all to learn from.

I spoke to a cardiologist about 20 years ago about his first NW Idaho elk hunt. He stated there was no F'ing way he was ever going back there again...much too tough of a hunt with the steepness, ruggedness and blowdowns everywhere. Way more than he bargained for...and he was in decent shape. As stated, hunting in this area is not for everyone.

I've learned from this thread.

1- I think both the guide and OP are good people.
2- Hear both sides of the story!

In reality, it was not s good fit for guide and hunter. And, this has been acknowledged.

Public land elk hunting is not for everyone. It's tough and usually I do not fill my tag. But, I never expect to do so!

Having had only the one experience in Idaho, I found it a lot more physically taxing than the hunts I made in Western Colorado.

Admittedly, there was a good bit of difference between my physical shape in 1992 at 42 years old and 2010 at 60 years old, but I knew what I was getting into and I am anal when getting information about what such a hunt is going to entail from the guide or outfitter I will be hunting with, to the point of being a pest.

Even then however, such things as weather, hunting pressure in general, game movement all have their effect.

On all the bull elk hunts I went on before killing my bull, both as a hunter and helping with the guide crew on earlier or later hunts, including mine, I never saw but one bull killed uphill from a vehicle/main trail.

After killing my bull I have only hunted late season cows, because the snow has ran them out of the high country and driving thru a hay meadow to load a dead cow elk makes for a damn fine trophy in my book.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick Johnson:
My name is Rick Johnson. I am the owner and operator of Selkirk Guiding and Outfitting.

Let me first say thank you to Mr. Pappas for the complimentary things he had to say about our operation. We are not perfect in any aspect of our operation, but we strive to provide the best experience we possibly can. It means quite a bit to hear the positive words you had to say about us.

Mr. Pappas, if either of us could go back in time and prevent your hunt with us I'm sure we would. I assure you, your disappointment in your experience with us is surpassed by our disappointment in your hunt with us.

Gentlemen, I could write a book about why this hunt took place the way it did, but I won't. What I will say is this. Free range, tough country, tough terrain, hard nosed do whatever it takes elk hunting is not for everyone. If you want to carry your weapon in not 1, but 2 cases while hunting, this is not the place for you. If it's more important to you to return to the truck in order to dry your gun rather than accept my offer of a Zeiss lens wipe to clean your scope up and keep hunting, this is not the place for you. If you would call off a promising evening stalk (where the guide smells elk and knows full well it's possibly the 6x7 bull that he had you within 75 yards of just that morning) due to having to cross too many dead falls and there being no logging road to get you to the elk, elk hunting is not for you. Especially considering this took place on a giant flat with absolutely zero incline. If you would request to sit at an evening feeding ground, only to leave said feeding ground with well over an hour of shooting light left, free range hunting is not for you. Especially if you did this twice! If at 50 yards, you completely miss a 12x12 target 1 out of 2 shots, you are not prepared to hunt here.

Mr. Pappas, there is a huge difference between walking and chasing elk wherever you have to go to get it done. My primary focus is the safety of my clients. Sir, I made the decision that I was not going to put you or myself in harms way by dumping off the side of a mountain. You have called into question my integrity, and that hurts. But, I will not be dragged into a pissing match. I will simply say, I believe I made the best decisions I could based on my observations.

I could go on forever but that will resolve nothing. Free-range big game hunting in the lower 48 is not for everyone. Free range hunting in North Idaho is for even fewer. If I'd known then what I know now, I would have never booked Mr. Pappas to hunt with us. And to be fair, I understand why he would say the same thing.

For those of you that truly have an interest in our operation, I would gladly offer up the contact info for every single client we took elk hunting this season. Feel free to contact us from our website at www.selkirkoutfitting.com
For those of you that just want to let your opinion be known without all the facts, feel free to carry on with business as usual.

In the meantime, vote Trump, cross your fingers he doesn't get us blown to smithereens, pray for the youth, and happy hunting.


Rick
www.selkirkoutfitting.com

I actually live in this area. Just a few observations... Regardless if it was a "road hunt" or that if the guide took you out more remote, it can be a tough area to hunt. Less people and more remote doesn't make for an easier hunt and certainly not safer or even one that changes your odds. I'd say if you were more remote with less pressure your odds would only change for the better if you did more hill humping and put in more time. It's a tough area. Another observation... Mark is a salesman in an industry where the only guarantee is in a canned hunt. Marks statements aren't anymore ridiculous than you thinking you would come home with nothing less. When you hunt at home would you EVER say you don't expect anything less then a 6X6 elk everytime you go out? In reality if Mark said don't expect anything less how was he wrong, you didn't come home with an elk less than a 6x6, you just didn't come home with an elk. Hunting is hunting, you didn't buy a canned hunt and I can bet the farm Unit 1 has 6X6 bulls, you just didn't come home with one.

Given the WIDE variety of hunting styles I'd make damn sure with the agent/guide what I wanted and do my homework before dropping coin.

Lessons learned. I do think it's an ideal area for a double if your held up tight with them on mt sides. I've taken my Ruger #1 500 NE 3" a number of times, 458 as well. If you hunt think it's going to be tough. A lot of my shots have been a split second ass end shot?

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:

quote:

Originally posted by Venture South:

quote:

I'm really not trying to insult again but I'm sincerely asking, are you in shape enough to put boots to ground and really pound the hills and mountains that is required on almost all elk hunts? Did the outfitter maybe think you weren't and maybe you two didn't communicate enough on this subject?

There is no way you would look at Cal and think he was unfit.
Put him in uniform and he could pass for a SEAL.

I have seen him walk 10km plus in 40 degree heat without issue. And that was carrying a 16lbs double rifle.

One doesn't just "walk" in elk country.....

Nor in most parts of Alaska. Cal's fitness level would not be a limiting factor. As for the double causing limits, I have to wonder how my Nephew killed an Elk on his first guided hunt ever with a bow?

Cheers
Jim

I would hazard a guess that both Mr. Pappas and Mr. Johnson would just as soon see this discussion fade into the sunset. Might be nice if the rest of us let it go.

What are the limitations of a doubles rifle? Obviously, I know nothing about them--zero experience. I would guess they are heavier and perhaps not scoped.

Carpetman1:
I love answering questions on my passion, double rifles.

There are a few limitations on double rifles. Those being:
1. weight
2. open sights
3. accuracy

Weight.
Doubles in comparable calibers will weigh 2-4 pounds over their bolt counterparts. Larger doubles are much heavier to soak up recoil such as my .600 at 16 pounds and my 4-bore double at 22 pounds (23 when loaded!). Weight makes is difficult to walk long distances--more so in the heat of Africa. The positive side is the weight soaks up the recoil and a heavier rifle is more steady when shooting. A double does not have the added weight of a long bolt action but the weight comes from the extra barrel and the size of the action to accept the barrel width at the breech or face.

Open sights.
Are definitely a factor in accurate and/or long range shooting. The vast majority of doubles are open sights with leaves marked for distance. Most common is a fixed or standing leaf for 100 yards and two folding for 200 and 300 yards. I've seen the first leaf as low as 25 yards and the longest range leaf to 1200 yards. Optimistic to say the least. A few doubles were scoped at the factory and some as after market. I own two scoped doubles now: a .450-400 with a Swarovski 1.25 to 4x 30mm and a Rigby .350 no2 with a Leupold VX3 1.5-5x. A year ago I sold a Holland and Holland Royal .500 with an ancient scope of 2 3/4 or 4x (I forget which).

Accuracy.
A double will never be as accurate at a single barrel rifle. When a rifle is fired it recoils up and back. When a double is fired it also recoils up and back but in addition the right barrels recoils to the right and the left barrel recoils to the left. Because of this, if the barrels were soldered parallel they would shoot apart. To compensate for this the barrels have a slight convergence when they are fastened together. This allows the barrels to group with acceptable accuracy. What is acceptable? Two inch groups at 50 yards is a good target for four shots. My .350 no2 Rigby is the best shooter I have and groups six shots into one inch. Three inches at 50 yards is about as big as one should get and larger than that the barrels should be re regulated or perhaps a different charge or type of powder to shrink the groups. All that said, generally, doubles are made to shoot one bullet weight, at one velocity for the best accuracy. Change the above and the physics of recoil changes and will, in turn, change the pattern of the target. Too fast a velocity will cause the barrels to crossfire and too slow a velocity will cause the group to be too wide. Before one spends the time and money to re regulate a double (about $1000 today plus shipping) one should play with the loading--both powder charge and burn rate of the powders--and try to get a good target at safe pressure levels. Usually, this can be done.

When a scope is mounted on a double it can be regulated for accuracy but that will decrease the accuracy when using open sights (the added weight changed how the rifle recoils). I have had doubles that were regulated to an acceptable level of accuracy with both the scope and open sights but they could be more accurate if regulated for one or the other. To solve the accuracy issue, I now sight the scope in for left barrel accuracy only (I shoot the rear trigger first), i.e. an accurate single shot. With the scope the right barrel shoots all over the place, but if take the scope off for close shooting then accuracy with both barrels is still there. My longest shot with the scoped .450-400 is a caribou at 195 yards, although most shots are much less both with and without a scope.

I hope this helps and let me know if you have any other double questions.
Cheers,
Cal

Cal, thanks very much for the detailed response. To me it almost seems the only reason to go double and not bolt, for example, would be nostalgia. I may be wrong but I also consider 30-30 vs .308 the same.

You are absolutely correct. There are many choices better than a double but none trump the "I want" factor.
cal

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
To me it almost seems the only reason to go double and not bolt, for example, would be nostalgia.

Like wearing tweeds if I ever went on an English upland bird hunt, I carried and used a British Double built in 1902 on the likely one and only Elephant hunt I've been on.

Just seemed right.

I do depart from Cal's fanaticism though in only using a double even here in Alaska. I happily use a cheapo (but light) Tikka T-3 superlite synthetic stainless bolt rifle for most game here. Though I'm sure the game would be honored to succumb to the wiles of a fine pre-war British double, their meat taste the same on my plate.

Cheers
Jim

quote:

There are many choices better than a double but none trump the "I want" factor.

And that right there is one factor that many will not be agreed with, but honestly SHOULD be respected. Personal Choice.

Mr. Pappas made a conscience decision to use a double rifle. Unfortunately it did not work out on this hunt, but that is no real indicator that it can not be done, and just think the direction this discussion would have taken had he been successful.

Too many folks seem to forgot that Personal Choice is everyone's prerogative, sometimes those choices work, sometimes they don't, but the ONLY person actually affected in the long run is the person that made the choice.

One aspect however that may be overlooked, or all too often is overlooked is the person that made the choice tip toes around the concept as to how much that choice affected the outcome of the activity.

The half dozen or so elk I've killed have been less that 50 yards. Deer, maybe 80. I don't think a double would be much of a handicap.

Dave

The issue of using a double is a non issue here as no elk were seen. The story of smelling a 6x7 in the am and then quitting the hunt in the pm is just that, a story. I didn't hunt the same area both am and pm of any day. We did look for two big elk named Chuckles and Legend but no results. I can publish my notes of each outing if needed.

In my hunt, had I been carrying a scoped and stainless .300 Weatherby with a synthetic stock the end result would have been the same as no shootable elk were seen. I would guess, as others have stated, it was the pressure of a road hunt on public land. Just too many people. An above post details the traffic I saw. On Wednesday's hunt I was sitting alone for the afternoon and came in an hour early as heavy equipment was operating a couple of hundred yards off. I thought it logging equipment but Connor later told me it was road maintenance equipment. It was very loud and after a few hours of it I walked the short distance back to the lodge--mayby 1/4 to 1/2 mile. The area looked promising as it was a meadow with few trees so glassing would be good but it was too close to the road and an area that was being logged/cleared (that's why I ghought the equpiment operating for several hours that afternoon was a logging operation).
In the areas I saw whilst there, the limitations of a double would not have been a handicap.
Cal

PS. In searching for an elk hunt, one outfitter contacted me and after taking distance he sugggested I not hunt wiht him as his shots were 300+ yards. I appreciated his honesty. Where I was, only one clear cut area we drove by the evening of the last day was large enough that a different rifle would be better for long range shots but no elk materialized. That evening we did see several pickups and camps and followed vehicles both in and out, and stopped as I was told we crossed a track. Calling and standing on the road (very close to the Washington border) my guide said an elk was in the valley to the left of the pickup, he could hear the elk as branches were breaking, but we didn't see him, and I could not hear him. If the elk (if there was indeed one) made his way up the bank the distance would have been 50 yards. My double was ready, but...

Gents:
This thread has about run its course. Since the topic of double rifles and their limitations has come up repeatedly I will soon begin another thread on the double rifles forum.
Cheers, all, and thanks for your contributions.
Cal

Ive hunted Idaho as much or more than anyone on this board, some because Im older. My assessment is elk numbers and quality are in the most way back isolated areas or in the more popular draw hunts..The rest is iffy at best and only for day one or two, then they move away from folks and roads..

The high rough country of Idaho is Hells personal realestate, its straight up and straight down, and its hell finding a place to lay your bedroll down..but lots of elk.

I am currently on my way home from elk country after a week of chasing mule deer DIY style above 9000 feet with friends from the AR membership in a harsh area. Lots of deadfall and rock/boulder covered stone mountains.

My hunt was not a high altitude hunt but very taxing on this
"in shape" 47 year old man from Southern Missouri that thrives @ 350 ft sea level

I will repeat myself....... One does not merely walk elk country

I would also like to think one of our newest members of AR "Rick Johnson" for chiming in and filling in the blanks.

It was enlightening and entertaining to hear about some of the aspects from the guides side of the story

After hearing both sides I gotta say.... It might have just been karma

Funny how it seems to straighten folks out