Gents:

About midway through my elk hunt I began receiving emails asking how the hunt was going. At the lodge I could receive emails but could not send them. It was not until at the Spokane airport could I send out a week's worth of communication. After telling friends and followers of my website the details many asked me to post the details, which I did on my website, and will now do so here. It is my hope others don't pay for a hunt such as the one I was on.

You may recall my thread on hunt contracts of a few months ago. I was looking for an elk hunt and Mark Young sent me information on a hunt he had. I did not book with Mark due to the legalities of the contract--that's the only reason. I made it clear in my posts that Mark had never done me any wrongs, it was just I won't sign my rights away.

The elk outfitter, Rick Johnson of Selkirk Guiding and Outfitting contacted me via email when Mark told him the hunt was not going to happen. Rick emailed he would like my business and not let a third party contract get in the way of a hunt, and he would give Mark his 10% for the introduction. The contract, or agreement, was sent to me and I sent a deposit check. Shortly after I bought my plane ticket and paid the balance of the hunt (total of $3750 with a $1500 trophy fee to be paid after I killed or wounded an elk). The hunt was to take place October 10-15 of this year and I arrived on the 9th. Assistant guide Connor was at the airport and on the drive back to the lodge I picked up my elk tag and hunting license ($575). Connor is from South Carolina and a wonderful and polite young man.

First, the good things. Nice folks and wonderful accommodations. Connor, Rick and Tonia, and Mike were nice conservative people and I'm sure we could solve the world's problems, and those of our country, in a matter of weeks with our ultra conservative viewpoints. Tonia's cooking is worth the price of admission itself as she could be a chef is some fancy 5-star New York restaurant. Also, Rick and Tonia are from an area of Tennessee I am looking to go to when I depart Alaska.

Second, the negative. The hunt sucked. Absolutely zero elk (although I did see four cows feeding on neighbor's lawns). It was a road hunt. Sometimes driving into the hills and walking the Forest Service roads, walking trails and ski paths very close to the lodge, or driving in the pickup and bulging for elk when stopping. The hunt pressure from other hunters was immense. Vehicles, hunters, atvs, motor homes, campers, were seen every day; often we were following other vehicles on the dirt roads or meeting another vehicle and having to reverse to let them pass. Many times we would drive to an area to walk and other hunter(s) were there ahead of us. On the first day we did see an elk, head down and feeding with his butt to us, about 250 yards away. As we were walking to get a closer look a local drove up and yelled at us, "Is that an elk? Is that an elk?" Then as we were walking, he fired twice behind us and to our left (he missed). So I assume it was a small male as cows are not legal to shoot. Rick mentioned to me he had others looking for elk to improve success. On the fourth day of the hunt a total of six gents (Rick, Connor, Mike, Bruce, and two others, plus myself) went on a walk looking and calling for elk. Nothing. I did hear of one elk that was killed and I heard a few shots throughout the hunt. On the evening of the last day a track was seen on the road and we stopped to call. Bruce and Rick told me they could hear a elk breaking branches but could not call it in. They did not show me the track. Local hunters Rick spoke to on our drives all said no elk were seen. One day a hunter was following us through the woods and using his elk call. Mike had to go and tell him it was us he was following and not a elk!

We took a few long drives to the hills east to Priest Lake and one to the south. It was the same. Road hunting and many vehicles and camps.

One selling point of the hunt was that I could take a whitetail or mule deer on my elk tag, then buy another tag and continue looking for elk. In fact I could shoot one elk and buy a second tag! But, no male whitetail were seen, only one spike mule deer was seen (along with some cows), no black bear, no cats, no coyotes, Absolutely nothing. It was a road hunt with too many vehicles and hunters.

I understand long before any hunt begins I am limited when I hunt with a double rifle. Distance is the major factor and one outfitter who contacted me from my initial post when searching for an elk hunt, would not book me as his distances were 300 yards or more. I appreciated his honesty in declining a booking rather than blow sunshine up my back side, fly down, and not take an elk. The double rifle limitations did not manifest themselves here as there was no elk to shoot at any distance. Not one.

On my way back to the airport Connor stopped in Priest River for coffee. I asked him how many elk hunters were guided by Selkirk this year and the success rate. He mentioned ten hunters preceded me and only one took and elk, a 5x5. I know nothing about elk but have been told a 5x5 is a "settle for" bull. In other words if a hunter does not see a 6x6 he will settle for a 5x5. Including myself, that's 8% success. If the other hunts were like my experience, that's a substantial amount of total income ($3750 each x 11 hunters) to drive around and only kill one elk.

So, gents, from my experience this is not an area to go on an elk hunt. An absolute waste of time and money.

Cheers,
Cal

Cal, I have to ask. Did you check this guys references?

Did not. I just went by Mark Young's communications to me. My error.
Cal

That didn't sound like a good time. I guess that is why we still call it hunting .

You made no mention of the weather.....

I had a good budy tell me they had a very wet weather system park itself close to the area you describe.

There are no guarantees in hunting and I have struck out plenty trying to kill elk.

Similar story....better ending for ronthorn

My at the time 68 year old brother hunted Mountain Lion two separate trips (2 years) with the same outfitter for a total of 18 days in Nevada just a touch south of Utah

They bayed one cat....on the last day of the second hunt.

He is mobility challenged and this was also a truck hunt loging thousands of miles looking for tracks.

Weather crippled his hunts with absolutely no snow so tracks were very hard to find.

ronthorn's cat kill video here

Ted:
Rained two days, sunny two days, and two days of off and on very light rain.
Cal
PS. I didn't think anything about the days of rain. I know here in Alaska rain does not change hunting strategies of moose, caribou or grizzly bears (the only three critters I hunt here). And, rain is never seen when I've been in Africa. Maybe it does affect elk?

But, his website says:

All members of the Selkirk Guiding and Outfitting team are avid outdoorsmen with a passion for wildlife conservation as well as hunting. Our goal is to provide you an unforgettable hunt with maximum opportunity to harvest a quality trophy while also being mindful of responsible wildlife management. We operate under Federal and State special use permits on the Idaho Panhandle National Forests. Combined with our private ground, we have access to over 500,000 acres in Northern Idaho and Eastern Washington. We take full advantage of this vast concession to ensure you have a unique experience. Our land is filled with an amazing variety of genetically superior big-game animals, and our approach to trophy management pays off year after year, as the hunting just continues to get better.


Also, Mark Young vouches for him.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
But, his website says:

All members of the Selkirk Guiding and Outfitting team are avid outdoorsmen with a passion for wildlife conservation as well as hunting. Our goal is to provide you an unforgettable hunt with maximum opportunity to harvest a quality trophy while also being mindful of responsible wildlife management. We operate under Federal and State special use permits on the Idaho Panhandle National Forests. Combined with our private ground, we have access to over 500,000 acres in Northern Idaho and Eastern Washington. We take full advantage of this vast concession to ensure you have a unique experience. Our land is filled with an amazing variety of genetically superior big-game animals, and our approach to trophy management pays off year after year, as the hunting just continues to get better.


Also, Mark Young vouches for him.

And you're point is?

Before this turns into a shit storm I'll go on point to say there seems to be a pattern here. I believe the outfitter more than likely did all he could to get Cal a shot with his double rifle. It doesnt seem so as I read his report but there are always two sides to a story. Maybe an email to inquire the otber side is in order since names are being drug out.

AR is famouse for a good old fashioned witch burning and this thread has the stench of it from the set up.

Yes a pattern is starting to evolve

quote:

Originally posted by just-a-hunter:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Ted:
Rained two days, sunny two days, and two days of off and on very light rain.
Cal
PS. I didn't think anything abiut the days of rain. I know here in Alaska rain does not change hunting strategies of moose, caribou or grizzly bears (the only three critters I hunt here). And, rain is never seen when I've been in Africa. Maybe it does affect elk?

I have no clue as to you or your fanancial situation and I'm not trying to be presumptuous but I know quite a few people who own and hunt with doubles and not ONE of them would care to have their double on an elk hunt in that kind of weather.. Did that pose any sort of problem for you?

Todd

Hi Todd:
My .450-400 I hunt with in Alaska every year for caribou and it has be wet plenty of times. On this hunt, in the heavy rains I kept it in a waterproof slip. I understood if an elk answered a call and comes to the bugle I can remove the rifle from the slip quickly. Of course, this won't work for a quick split second snap shot. When sitting in a blind or under a tree, the rifle is out. When we thought we may be near an elk, the rifle was over my shoulder on a sling, rain or shine. When in a vehicle I kept the rifle in a soft slip to prevent damage. However, as there were no elk seen at all, the limitations of a double rifle did not matter. Also, I was not concerened about seeing an elk from truck as I don't shoot from a vehicle. But, again, no elk were seen so my philosophy is moot.

On the walk on the first day it was light rain and the rain and snow on the trees wetted the rifle (and me) a bit but an oil cloth in the truck took care of that. In 2013 and 2015 on caribou hunts in the arctic it rained and snowed for seven days straight, no letup, and I just covered it when I could and used oil and a cloth every night in the tent. I have only hunted with my doubles for the last 15 years (although I have two bolt rifles for friends who come to AK to hunt with me) and they get some wear marks and use but that is what they were made for. (I used to own to wonderful '69 427 Corvettes and they were my everyday driving cars from April to October--I want to use the items I enjoy, that's why I don't collect paintings!).

This rifle is not a fancy double but has good history. My avorite rifle is a .600 double by Wilkes from 1914 and it has seen six trips to Africa and Australia as well as moose hunts in Alaska in the rain. I keep the rifle in the same two slips, depending on weather, and have done fairly well with it. And it's a heck of a lot more valuable than the .450-400.

Cheers and thanks for asking.
Cal

From reading what Frank posted and Cal's report. It sounds to me like he got suckered with bullshit.

These days there's half million elk hunters out n about. That's why CO has split up the month long seasons into half dozen or so 5 day seasons. Damned little chance of getting an elk in only five days hunting time. When season was a month long, we always figured 2 weeks minimum for elk. Antelope could be mostly counted on by noon Sat, mule deer 2-4 days. We seldom saw other hunters not from our camp.

Now it's a parade, one truck or atv after another. When we do see elk, they're either in the timber, or when they hit the open space, they're on a dead run til they get into timber again and it don't matter how many miles it is til they get there, it's full hard run all the time they're in the open.

Just too many "long range shooters" blasting away whenever game in seen and it don't matter a damn how far away they are. I've seen idiots blasting away at elk running hard at least a mile away going to timber 3-5 miles across the open country.
Still, the state DOW posts 19-22% year after year. Regardless of whether it's a dry year or not.
Where Iv'e hunted the last 15yrs LaJara Res. 30mi SW of Alamosa at 9000'. IS one area that if there's no heavy snow up in the high country, there's rarely any elk to be found. The few years we had 2-4' of snow fall most nights we had elk all over the place. We had 20 hunters in camp and killed 19 elk. I was bunking with a father/son in a trailer and they had big fight. I pulled out on the first open seat as I rode up with the boy. I go to enjoy myself, game or not, I'm not going to stick around when the two guys I'm living with are fighting each other half the time. Since then I've taken my own trailer and truck and stay alone camped in a group of others that all hunt and help each other. Those two a/h's haven't been back but, once.

Cal, that's a lot of money for riding around in a truck in traffic like that.

George

quote:

I'm really not trying to insult again but I'm sincerely asking, are you in shape enough to put boots to ground and really pound the hills and mountains that is required on almost all elk hunts? Did the outfitter maybe think you weren't and maybe you two didn't communicate enough on this subject?

There is no way you would look at Cal and think he was unfit.
Put him in uniform and he could pass for a SEAL.

I have seen him walk 10km plus in 40 degree heat without issue. And that was carrying a 16lbs double rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Venture South:

quote:

I'm really not trying to insult again but I'm sincerely asking, are you in shape enough to put boots to ground and really pound the hills and mountains that is required on almost all elk hunts? Did the outfitter maybe think you weren't and maybe you two didn't communicate enough on this subject?

There is no way you would look at Cal and think he was unfit.
Put him in uniform and he could pass for a SEAL.

I have seen him walk 10km plus in 40 degree heat without issue. And that was carrying a 16lbs double rifle.

One doesn't just "walk" in elk country.....

Based on the description of this hunt for whatever reason you had way too many people/activity. In my experience, to hunt Elk that way and bingo is a pipe dream. Elk are a very solitary animal unlike whitetail and will go to great lengths to be that. The larger bulls the one you would like to have. Not necessarily a world beater will move high and get in some of the gnarliest stuff you can imagine. They should have had you strap on your pack and got back at least a mile where you have left 90% plus of the crowd you mentioned. Either the outfitter doesn't know what he's doing and he took advantage of your inexperience to call him on it. Candidly, hunting Elk with a double under most circumstances is aspirational.
Does this area really hold Elk aside from the tremendous pressure? Trophy fees are in some cases a good incentive for performance but also can be a diversion that this is a $3750.00 Elk hunt with a very low success rate.

Elk hunting in Idaho is chicken or guts and feathers, unfortunately mostly guts and feathers! Poor management, politics, and wolves make our elk hunting iffy,

Todd:
I understand your questions and I appreciate the respectful manner you ask them.

About my ability to walk and my fitness level. I've beeen an insulin dependant diabetic for 22 years. To keep my blood sugar at an acceptable level I walk as a, let's say, hobby. Since 1999 I have kept a walking and exerericse log for my endocrinologist. My Black Lab and I walk every day, rain or shine, from 80 degrees to as low as -50, 1 1/2 to 2 hours a day. Sometimes more, rarely less. We average 1800 miles a year and up to 2200, walking the woods and trails here at my home in Alaska. I retired at 49 so have the time for this. My walking is fine. My last stress test: the cardiologist could not track me on her chart of nubmers as I was so far off the chart she could not measure. Subtract 10 years and I get closer, -15 years and there, -20 years and I'm there. No, I can't keep up with a 20 year old but he doc said I was at the level of a "fit man in his 40s." I'm 6 feet tall, weigh 220 lbs and in my younger years was a competitor in Olympic-style weight lifting. I've exercised regularly since middle school and until two operations my left shoulder and elbow kept my bench press at the 300-350 level until my later 50s. Excuse the long narrative, but I wanted to give you a complete answer.

I absolutely do not think I was suckered into a lame hunt nor do I question the honesty of the outfitter and certainly not the agent who directed me to the hunt. I'm sure the hope was to provide a hunt to connect with an elk the easiest and quickest way possible. Unfortunately, it did not turn out that way.

On the first day of the hunt I slipped on a wet branch on the ground and took a little fall. I didn't think it serious and Rick said to watchout for wet wood as it is slippery. He stated he has fallen plenty of times in his tenure in the woods and that was that. At 4:45 am on the Sunday of my departure he did mention he had a concern of my ability to walk and get out of the hilly country if we had to walk down a hill to find an elk. I didn't quite know what to make of this. It almost sounded like my fall was a rationale for the lack of success. I hope the road hunt I was on was not a substitute for a better hunt based on one small fall expecially without out discussion of the matter with me.

I trust my answer is complete.
Cheers,
Cal

Has Mark done this hunt? Did he have any history of success rates that he shared with you?

The whole issue of success rate is normally wildly exaggerated.

In 2015 was supposed to hunt with the guy I normally hunt with in the Selway, but the forest fires caused the Forest Service to close the forest. So Fish and Game issued me a license for 2016, but my outfitter was booked solid. Bummer, because I am 3/3 with him including two bulls over 320 (one might be 350). His cost is less than yours (with the TF) and it is a packstring hunt that is so much an adventure the elk are a bonus. And no, I am not posting any hunt reports or identifying him by name; he doesn't use booking agents (maybe because he doesn't have to?).

Since my elk outfitter was booked I went moose hunting in AK instead. Shot a 57 inch moose; not my biggest, but not bad. The elk outfitter? Said they didn't see a single elk in two weeks. Sometimes you are lucky and sometimes you aren't.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Has Mark done this hunt?
Did he have any history of success rates that he shared with you?

After the multi page "debate" thread that Cal started in regards to Marks booking contract on this hunt and his decision to not use Mark I for one think it's wrong to bring Mark into question here.

Cal made a decision to use this outfitter and nobody held a gun to his head to do so. He admitted to not doing his homework on the outfitter and payed the price for doing so. It could happen to any of us and has happened a couple times to my brother in years past.

On another note...

Cal,

A couple weeks before the Mark Young Contract thread that you started.....I pm'd you the contact information of a friend that offers a low cost DIY deer hunt on private property. I did this because you asked for recommendations on finding a deer hunt in the lower 48.
I pm'd you the information with nothing whatsoever to gain (he has no problems filling up) and even offered to help you if you hunted on his property.

You tried to contact him multiple times but after several days of non-responce from my friend you decided to not use him because of his non-responce and you're time line.

After the lengthy Mark Young thread and now this one I am glad that you did not use my friend in North Missouri as I have a suspicion that you may have been less than pleased with sitting on a deer stand for 4 or 5 days solid with only the possibility of seeing a "good representative buck" much less killing one.

Just like elk.....I've struck out plenty on deer too and haven't killed a nice buck since 2012

That's hunting

I think it might be time to chime in here. I hunted with Selkirk during the archery season...9/19-9/25. This is some VERY rugged country and if you get off of the roads....most I was on were more like 2 track paths...30* up one side and 30* downhill on the other were the norm....and we did that many times. As a flatlander in reasonable shape, it was still tough...had to rest regularly. I had 3 bull elk (all shooters...1 maybe 325 class) come in to bugle/cow calls. The brush was very thick, and with a bow, you aren't going to shoot thru it. They had had a reasonably warm Sept and the leaves hadn't begun to fall.
Yes, it's tough to hunt with a double...done it 4 times in Africa...but even tougher with a bow. Rick, Chris, Bruce, Conner and Mike worked real hard to get me on those bulls...and we saw others that may have been harvested with my 340 Weatherby...but at 180-200 yards...not a bow. I can't comment on the number of hunters as not many other bow hunters were seen. This is public land with Selkirk having sole outfitter rights to. However, as I have seen on hunting shows and read in articles and experienced first hand, if the game feels pressured, they don't stick around. Selkirk has spike camps that are VERY remote. I spent a couple of days in one. Again, we heard elk, but simply couldn't get there with a bow.
Rick and Tonia, along with their other guides mentioned, are a first rate operation that, I feel, will only get better...this is their first full year as owners of the business. They work hard, provide accommodations and meals second to none.
I was in camp when the bow hunter harvested his elk....it was a nice 5x5 and was his first elk with a bow...I would have shot it as well as I have yet to harvest my first elk with a bow.
Knowing what I know now, I would insure I was even in better shape so peeling off on the 30* uphillers wasn't as difficult...it definitely would have increased my opportunities for sure. So while I went home without any antlers, the trip, the hunt, and the folks were awesome to me.

Gary

Oh, sorry...forgot to mention...I booked with Mark, my third time dealing with him and Sadie. Top drawer in my book.

Gary

Gents:
I gentlemanly fashion of all replies here is outstanding. The folks on AR's political forum could take a lesson from you folks.

I will post some additional numbers later today when I come in.

It is nice to see a positive report above. I know Selkirk has 100% on cats and Craig Boddington and his Mrs. took two cats a short time ago. I believe there was a good article in Safari magazine about the hunt (but I didn't see it). The Hunt Report has two positive and one negative reports listed there.

Cheers, all.
Cal

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GarBy:
I think it might be time to chime in here. I hunted with Selkirk during the archery season...9/19-9/25. This is some VERY rugged country and if you get off of the roads....most I was on were more like 2 track paths...30* up one side and 30* downhill on the other were the norm....and we did that many times. As a flatlander in reasonable shape, it was still tough...had to rest regularly. I had 3 bull elk (all shooters...1 maybe 325 class) come in to bugle/cow calls. The brush was very thick, and with a bow, you aren't going to shoot thru it. They had had a reasonably warm Sept and the leaves hadn't begun to fall.
Yes, it's tough to hunt with a double...done it 4 times in Africa...but even tougher with a bow. Rick, Chris, Bruce, Conner and Mike worked real hard to get me on those bulls...and we saw others that may have been harvested with my 340 Weatherby...but at 180-200 yards...not a bow. I can't comment on the number of hunters as not many other bow hunters were seen. This is public land with Selkirk having sole outfitter rights to. However, as I have seen on hunting shows and read in articles and experienced first hand, if the game feels pressured, they don't stick around. Selkirk has spike camps that are VERY remote. I spent a couple of days in one. Again, we heard elk, but simply couldn't get there with a bow.
Rick and Tonia, along with their other guides mentioned, are a first rate operation that, I feel, will only get better...this is their first full year as owners of the business. They work hard, provide accommodations and meals second to none.
I was in camp when the bow hunter harvested his elk....it was a nice 5x5 and was his first elk with a bow...I would have shot it as well as I have yet to harvest my first elk with a bow.
Knowing what I know now, I would insure I was even in better shape so peeling off on the 30* uphillers wasn't as difficult...it definitely would have increased my opportunities for sure. So while I went home without any antlers, the trip, the hunt, and the folks were awesome to me.

Gary[/QUOTE

Gary:

This seems consistent with what Cal said.

Based upon what the guides said ( yes I believe Cal. He is a true gentleman ), this does not sound like a hunt with a high success rate. To me that is not surprising on public access land.

Elk hunts can be tough . Elk hunts with a double rifle are tougher. On public land .......sounds like a roll of the dice.

Personally , I have been on a few elk hunts in prime areas. I have averaged being successful 2 out of every 3 trips. However, I saw a ton of elk each time.

Sorry it didn't work out Cal.

quote:

I believe the outfitter more than likely did all he could to get Cal a shot with his double rifle.

I don't know Cal and for all I know he is overweight and can't walk a mile, but if I paid for an elk hunt and got a road hunt I would be really pissed off. But then, I would ask about the hunting methods before I booked. The idea that a truck hunt was necessary because he used a double is laughable - if anything, the shots would be longer. I can think of only two of the nine bulls I have shot that could not have been shot with a double.

When I book a hunt I make it really clear I am not mobility challenged, and if I get stuck with a guide who can't walk or puts me in a truck, I would be pissed.

Do you seriously think hunting out of a truck is a viable elk hunting method? I am 100% on guided hunts and none involved hunting out of truck.


Any of these so called shit storms is always a chance for others to learn.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

I believe the outfitter more than likely did all he could to get Cal a shot with his double rifle.

I don't know Cal and for all I know he is overweight and can't walk a mile, but if I paid for an elk hunt and got a road hunt I would be really pissed off. But then, I would ask about the hunting methods before I booked. The idea that a truck hunt was necessary because he used a double is laughable - if anything, the shots would be longer. I can think of only two of the nine bulls I have shot that could not have been shot with a double.

When I book a hunt I make it really clear I am not mobility challenged, and if I get stuck with a guide who can't walk or puts me in a truck, I would be pissed.

Do you seriously think hunting out of a truck is a viable elk hunting method? I am 100% on guided hunts and none involved hunting out of truck.


Any of these so called shit storms is always a chance for others to learn.

Since you removed that quote from one of my above comments I'm assuming you are addressing me.....

I will wait on opening my umbrella as I am looking forward to seeing the outfitters side of the story here soon

Tough deal Cal.

I met Cal last month, and had a great few hours talking with him while my kids terrorized his lab (my daughter keeps asking when she gets to go back to play with her new friend's dog, Blackie). As an almost 28yo guy that has been working on getting into better shape the past year, I genuinely envy Cal's physical condition! I grew up elk hunting in Utah in some seriously thick steep'n'deep stuff and will be back doing so in 10 days on my first LE tag after 15 years of drawing.

In reading the report, I think Cal gave a very balanced report. He praises the outfitter for their strengths (cooking, equipment, demeanor) and criticized the use of roads (which is in the outfitters control) and laments the sheer pressure of the area. I don't know what all was communicated prior to the hunt between Selkirks and Cal, but based on the website the claims of careful management of their areas certainly seem a bit far fetched.

Justanotherhunter:
Thanks for your comments. You and your family are welcome anytime. I will be shooting doubles all winter as my heated shooting shed is wonderful--stop by and shoot a bit. As to my post here, I try to be honest and objective. Some may not like my message but I try not to let emotion nor rudeness into the picture.

Ted:
I can't reply to your post about your recommended DYI hunt as it is opinion and purely subjective. If I did hunt in Missouri and didn't connect--no problem. But, if I hunted there and ran into numerous hunters and campers, etc., daily, yes a problem (I have the numbers of hunters, vehicles etc., if you are curious). But, as said, it's all speculation. But I can say this: last July I was on an elephant hunt in Zimbabwe. Saw zero elephants. But did we try! Walked, drove, phoned, spent nights under ithe full moon, etc. The effort of the PH, Wayne van de Berghe, was outstanding. This example is to illustrate it is not just successful outcomes that determines the final view.

To answer Squeezenhope's and AZwriter's question about references:
My decision to hunt was based on Mark's Young's email of May 29. The third sentence sold the hunt:

"The elk I'd recommend would be in Unit 1 in Idaho. A lot of hunting would be in the forest so your double would work nicely. There are lots of elk and you should expect a nice 6x6 bull and maybe a very big bull." Not that I could see/take a 6x6 but to expect one.

The Hunt Report has three reviews of Selkirk, two positive and one negative. I don't rely much on references as agents and outfitters and PHs only show the top trophies and best experiences.

Ted:
I don't understand your post about not "walking" for elk. I don't know if that means one runs a lot or if one sits still and waits, drives, etc.

GarBy:
We share the same positive views, no doubt.

RAR60's post on too many people, here are some numbers:
Excluding myself, hunters in my camp looking for elk, either walking or in a vehicle (when walking, sometimes together, sometimes separate):
day 1--2
day 2--3
day 3--3
day 4--6
day 5--2
day 6--3

Cheers, all.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
My decision to hunt was based on Mark's Young's email of May 29. The third sentence sold the hunt:

"The elk I'd recommend would be in Unit 1 in Idaho. A lot of hunting would be in the forest so your double would work nicely. There are lots of elk and you should expect a nice 6x6 bull and maybe a very big bull." Not that I could see/take a 6x6 but to expect one.

I may not be the world's greatest elk hunter, but this comment tells me Mark hasn't done much elk hunting. Anyone selling an elk hunt that cheap on public land with the promise of a 6x6 is completely unconnected from reality - the possible exception being an AZ rifle bugle hunt in Sep, where there are some outfitters selling fairly inexpensive hunts where you turn down 6 bys every morning and evening - after waiting 16 years to draw a permit.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

Ted:
I don't understand your post about not "walking" for elk. I don't know if that means one runs a lot or if one sits still and waits, drives, etc.

Cal

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:

One doesn't just "walk" in elk country.....

Walking is involved no doubt but in a lot of the areas that I hunt elk climbing and above average conditioning comes into play in the daily up and down.

Running.....even though it is normally uneffective also comes into play at times.

I might suggest Cal to contact Bridger Patrini of Tri-State Outfitters in Raton NM or Kiowa Outfitters also of Raton and book a guided hunt on the T-O or the famous Vermajo Ranch.

Both a very large tracts of low fenced 100% private property with fantastic elk and deer.

I have hunted with both of the outfitters mentioned and on both of these properties.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
My decision to hunt was based on Mark's Young's email of May 29. The third sentence sold the hunt:

"The elk I'd recommend would be in Unit 1 in Idaho. A lot of hunting would be in the forest so your double would work nicely. There are lots of elk and you should expect a nice 6x6 bull and maybe a very big bull." Not that I could see/take a 6x6 but to expect one.

I may not be the world's greatest elk hunter, but this comment tells me Mark hasn't done much elk hunting. Anyone selling an elk hunt that cheap on public land with the promise of a 6x6 is completely unconnected from reality - the possible exception being an AZ rifle bugle hunt in Sep, where there are some outfitters selling fairly inexpensive hunts where you turn down 6 bys every morning and evening - after waiting 16 years to draw a permit.

AZWriter:

I agree with you as far as the "6 point expectation and maybe a big bull". I will agree with the fact that a double would work. It is thick and I have hunted the Priest lake area (not for elk).

I may get some critics here but Idaho, in general, is not a state to expect a 6 point bull or a large bull.

Just my opinion and I have been wrong before. It would be great if the Outfitter commented as previously suggested.

Ted -

You seem to be angry at any negative report as if the hunter is at fault in each case. Not trying to start with you.....just an observation.

If you're told to expect a "6 x 6 bull or bigger" what should your expectations be?

As a surgeon I make well sure that patient's expectations preop are in line with what I know the outcome will likely be. If they're not I recommend they go elsewhere for their surgery. I'll admit that not all surgeons are like me in this regard and as a result have some very unhappy patients. That said, surgery is not a perfect science and occasionally there are unexpected outcomes.

We hear stories here all the time and thankfully there are many experienced hunters here with firsthand experience of either the area and/or the outfitter to vet the post. My point is.....saying "that's why it's called hunting not shooting" every single time one of these come up is a steaming pile of horseshit.

Cal,

I have tremendous respect for you as a hunter and appreciate your honesty in posting your recent elk hunting experience in Idaho. I have had similar experiences. Your $3750 probably just barely covered the cost of the hunt for the outfitter. He tried to find you an elk. You got to walk around and see new country, meet new people and enjoy nature for a few days. Probably put on a few pounds and had some good laughs. Money well spent in my book.
Twice as much money would have bought you a private land hunt and increased your odds significantly. I would not expect to shoot a brown bear on a $6000 hunt in Alaska but I might still have a great time.
Thanks again for sharing.

Ski+3
Kalispell, MT

quote:

Originally posted by Norton:
Ted -

You seem to be angry at any negative report as if the hunter is at fault in each case. Not trying to start with you.....just an observation.

If you're told to expect a "6 x 6 bull or bigger" what should your expectations be?

As a surgeon I make well sure that patient's expectations preop are in line with what I know the outcome will likely be. If they're not I recommend they go elsewhere for their surgery. I'll admit that not all surgeons are like me in this regard and as a result have some very unhappy patients. That said, surgery is not a perfect science and occasionally there are unexpected outcomes.

We hear stories here all the time and thankfully there are many experienced hunters here with firsthand experience of either the area and/or the outfitter to vet the post. My point is.....saying "that's why it's called hunting not shooting" every single time one of these come up is a steaming pile of horseshit.

Nope.....you would be wrong.....I rarely anger

I don't know Cal....nor do I know the outfitter

I have used Mark Young with 100% success and zero issues.

Before any judgments are passed I will wait on the accused to take the stand if he so should choose.

If he doesn't then it's his loss not mine.

granted it's rifle season so the elk will be more weary as compared to archery season, but why would it be unreasonable to expect to be able to get within range of a double?

I can see needing to walk more, or sit in a likely escape route so the pressure of other hunters pushes something your way but the weapon of choice doesn't seem to be a valid argument in my books.

I'm curious: where the other hunters in camp driven around by their guides too? or how did they hunt?

I was not going to weigh in on this, but having hunted Idaho five different times, I have at least limited experience with the state.

I hsve had the good fortune to hunt that state five times: two hunts were general entry, and three were limited entry ML hunts. I was successful one time, and it was on an old satellite bull, well cut and gouged from the rut, found all alone on his way to the Snake River for a drink, most likely. He was a ~285" 5 X 5, and I killed him on my first trip to the state, back in 1997, above Heise, the third day of general season.

Subsequent trips went with my elk tag unfilled, although I did see a spike elk still with his mother on one ML hunt, and we did find a mature bull about two miles across a creek drain, and as safe as a baby in mother's arms during another. My buddy, as good a guide as anyone holding a license to outfit in Idaho but just a good personal friend, told me that even if we could have killed him (no way), the bull was in deadfalls waist high or higher, and the only way to get him out was through the creek bottom, which involved a three mile pack out, as "metal ponies" are not allowed and we had no access to horses.

The other two hunts I never saw an elk at all.

Back to the 5 X 5: on our way to the check station after a full day of trying to get the animal back to the truck, I was told "Right now there are 19 people pretty mad at you." When I asked what he was talking about, my buddy told me that overall, public entry elk hunts were about 5% effective, and if one factored in all the limited entry hunts and all the outfitter hunts, the success rate probably approached 20%.

He lives there, and just turned 65. I think he should know what he is talking about.

All that to say this: elk success is incredibly rare, to me, even with full time guides, and it gets worse every year. There are more people in the woods, and with wolves in Idaho as in all the other western states, the elk herd is diminished severely every year. Getting away from the public on a public entry hunt is all but impossible, unless one enlists the aid of horses, and that introduces a complete new liability, one a lot of outfitters do not wish to undertake, for very obvious and understandable reasons.

I do not know Mark but everything he posts on here seems to be on the up and up. But I know enough of Cal's to know that he also knows what he is talking about, and his experience dwarfs mine by several lifetimes.

I think he got taken, but I do not believe it was Mark's fault. I have to wonder if Mark just didn't re-state something the outfitter told him about plenty of elk and being able to expect a 6 X 6, and maybe even a "big" bull.

Cal, so sorry for the disappointing experience. But I cannot say I am totally surprised, especially since it was general season and well after the rut. There is a reason the seasons are set up that way: early/limited entry hunts are usually at the tail end of the rut in Idaho (in my experience). The bowhunters get to hunt the rut because they are at such a disadvantage already, and general season is after the rut when the bulls are in the thick stuff, recovering from the stress of the rut. Add in fickle weather and a host of other outside influences, and it becomes a crapshoot; sometimes, literally.

JMHO...

Doubless is spot on. I have hunted Idaho on and off since 1999. Public land is becoming crowder due to the availability of over the counter tags.
If you want a big bull: New Mexico, Utah and Wyoming are the places to hunt, that is, if you can get a tag. Which is a big if.
Many try to get a tag at a preferred location in other states, when all else fails, there is Id.
Idaho is a beautiful state with game, but in the forests it is straight up and down with lots of wilderness. Many can't physically hunt it on foot, so they resort to road hunting via atv or off road vehicle. meaning anything within a mile of any road, success is nil so are the quality of game and the whole experience.

To increase your odds, you have to get away from the road system, similar to AK.

Pack in on horses deep in the wilderness guided. If you want to save money, you can do drop camp, either supplied or not. You need a horse left at camp with panniers for retrieval.

There is many air strips in the wilderness that you can charter a plane to fly you. You can do it unguided, but must have a partner that is adept at carrying heavy packs. Don't go to Chamberlain Basin. It is full of wolves with zero success. Pick the highest elevation airstrip with the nastiest north facing dark timber. Airport personnel are pretty straight forward on passing pertinent information.

Some will do a float hunt but rarely. You can fly from Salmon into the Frank Church Wilderness and float out on one of the Salmon river tributaries.

Private ranches are an excellent source. Make sure it is not an alfalfa field hunt with no adventure.
Many ranches have landlocked access to vast amount of property. You can do the minimum by just paying trespass fee and doing everything on your own, using your tent or trailer etc..
some will provide a ranch house accommodation , meals and retrieval of game.
Private Land Management "PLM" tags are similar but simplify the tag acquiring process. You can get a list of PLM ranches from the ID. Game Dept. They have a fee for their limited tags and prices vary.

For using a double I would concentrate on the panhandle area with no limitations.


We all build hope all year for our hunts, when things turn south, we get disgusted, depressed and have a hard time accepting the outcome. This will pass, just don't let it eat at you. You have many future hunts to look forward to.

If I had a quality elk hunt with guaranteed tags, You would be most welcome at my camp.

Safe hunting
Charles

The price of this hunt is where I knew it was going south. Deep in the Frank Church Wilderness is where elk are. That said it is accessible by horseback and private grass landing strips as mentioned above. Minimum $6,000 entry fee for a guided hunt on horseback. It is all remote (as anywhere in the lower 48) and straight up and down. I have never hunted there, but I have been down the middle fork 13 times and explored a lot of it. It is one of my favorite places in the west. I would certainly think the dark timber would be great for a double.

Keep your head up Cal!

Four of my friends and I DIY hunted the East side of Priest Lake a few years ago and killed 4 elk. 2 were close to the road opening morning and the other 2 were miles back in.

Cal, if you want to elk hunt there again I'll gladly drive up and hunt there with you. It'll be a no frills, no cost, no guarantees tent camp.

TREE EM:
Thanks for the invite. I do hope to meet you someday (I still owe you a few dollars and need your address) but I don't think the Priest Lake area needs any more road hunters. A bush camp does sound appealing, however.

Tim629:
My .450-400 double has a Swarovski 1.25-4x 30mm scope. I have taken a few caribou at 125 yards and one at 195. However most shots are less than 50 and a few less than 100 yards. It's been to Africa and Australia a few times and a dozen plus hunts here in Alaska.

Doubles, Mlfguns and Colin:
Thanks for your input. It is appreciated.

Gents:

Everyone who posts on AR gets PMs and emails for their posts that raise a few eyebrows. This thread, and my thread on contracts, received numerous communications. I get several, many having opinions on Mr. Young, one from Mark himself that was not meant for my eyes, sent to me in error exactly 23 minutes after I made the original post, some using words such as "taken" and "set up," and a few asking what I did see and do on the hunt.

Below are the numbers for the duration of the hunt. I write every detail in a journal during each hunt, and have done so since 1994. Perhaps it is the writer in me or just attention to detail, but if I write on a hunt 5 years later I want to be accurate. On my first hunt in Zimbabwe (1994) I can tell you what we ate, the climate, the animals, shots, etc.. Hell, I can also tell you in 1997 in Zim I first sampled green Tabasco!. The figures below are not from memory but from notes recorded each day a lunch and also in the evening, and tallied the evening of the last day. So, FYI:

shootable elk seen--0, cows yes
shootable white tail seen--0, does yes
shootable mule deer seen--0, females yes and one spike male
other game that was in season seen--0

pickups and jeeps--32
hunters in each vehicle--1 to 4
license plates--4 states
large camps with tents for atvs, campfires, etc.--4
campers, trailers, motor homes--16
4 wheelers, driving and in pickup beds--26
4 person atv--2
horse trailers--2
hunters on foot--6
shots heard--8
stories of elk being shot--1
local hunters asked about elk and who saw none--4

plus, as mentioned:
elk hunters this season--11 (including myself)
successful hunters--1, 5x5 bull
percent success--8%

So, for those who are not pleased with my post(s) let me ask you this: if you were told to expect a 6x6 bull or larger, then went on a road hunt and saw the above, would you be pleased with the outcome? I don't think there would be lines of hunters shouting, "Book me, book me" at the outfitter or agent's door. Next year Selkirk's elk price will increase $500, from $3750 to $4250, plus trophy fee.

To summarize this and my prior posts--the above numbers are factual. This was my first paid hunt in the Lower 48 (I have taken one white tail on a friend's ranch in south Texas and a few turkey in Massachusetts and Kansas). The limitations of a double rifle did not manifest themselves here as there were no shooting opportunities. My physical limitations were not exceeded as <50%of the hunt we walked slowly and >50% of the hunt we just drove. While I do take care of my double rifles, I have hunted with doubles since 1991 and exclusively since 2003. They have been wet, a stock broken, and plenty of dings, scratches, and wear to the blacking---from bpe rifles to a wonderful and rare original .600 nitro, and many in-between. This summer I will take a .350 no2 Rigby and Jack Lott's .500 nitro Watson Brothers to Zimbabwe. It's what I do.

Prior to the hunt there was no communication to me as to any issues with my health, diet, ability, etc. Two days before I departed I was asked about the range limitations of my double rifle. I did ask about clothing and the temperature. I was told to bring waterproof boots, layers of clothing, and rain gear. I did.

Success does sell hunts. A friend who is a CEO of a very successful corporation thought about hunting with me but had a business meeting in Brussels and was to depart on the second day of the hunt. He and his family are avid hunters and none of them have taken an elk. If I had seen elk the day of my arrival or the second day, I truly believe he would have cancelled his Europe flight and come to hunt in Idaho. The few dozen PMs, emails, and my website all asked about my success--many of whom I suspect are looking for an elk. I make my posts on AR sans emotion and, hopefully, with respect (except to Larry Root, Zombiekiller, and Shootaway when he is off his medications--LOL). My hunt report is my experience, not anyone else's. I'm sure many have had success with Selkirk and their cat hunts are 100%. However, my experience was otherwise.

It would indeed be interesting if Mark Young would fill in the huge gray area between "expect" a 6x6 or larger bull, and the Idaho statistics as listed in above posts and my experience. I think a topic for another thread would be about agents and outfitters and what they say and do to sell a hunt. Mark did not book this hunt but did initiate the process and was paid 10%. I now understand why contracts read as they do: to protect everyone--except the hunter.

Cheers, mates.
Cal

. . . so the agent you elected not to book with is the person responsible for your failed hunt and you wonder why booking contracts get written in the manner in which they do?

Hi Mike.
I expected your disapproval long before this. I only stated facts in what I was told and facts as to the results. I absolutely never said Mark was responsible--read my above posts. But when trying to sell the hunt to me it was ddefinately blue sky in the "expect" a 6x6 or larger. Mike, you're a lawyer and I understand lawyers only operate with facts. I only stated facts.
Cheers,
Cal

In the third post on this thread Cal you acknowledged that you never checked any references, then go on to refer to the representations of an agent that you have previously castigated for having a contract you feel is unreasonable and who you obviously do not trust. Seriously, any hint, suggestion or even allusion that Mark is in any way responsible is simply disingenuous at best. You paid your money, took your chances (apparently without much diligence) and came up empty, not sure why this always has to be about someone else being at fault or deserving any blame.

No blame. What interested me in the hunt from the start was Mark's description. That's all. If Mark or the outfitter told me it was to be a road hunt with little or no game and endless other hunters I would have influenced me in another direction. I made it clear the facts on how I booked the hunt. I'm sorry if I offended you in any manner.
Cheers,
Cal

PS. In other words to make what I am trying to say more clear. If I suggested to you a location in Alaska to shoot a huge moose and you came and saw nothing, am I to blame. Of course not. But, did my words have an influence on your decision to come and hunt? Yes. If I told you the area I hunt in produced poor results that would also influence your decesion perhaps not to hunt. If I'm not making myself clear, I will try again.
C