Alan Day I agree 100% with you. Get the Classic mod 70. Send it to a good smith. Give him some time. Use the action as a platform. Have him do whatever it takes and you will be very satisfied. (I used Rifles Inc.) It will last longer than you do in most cases. If you gotta have a off the rack, as is gun, You pick one or the other and take your chance. You may get a shooter and you may get a dog from any and all off the rack large manufacturer's rifles. good hunting. D
Posts: 1701 | Location: Western NC | Registered: 28 June 2000
So, what Paul H from Idaho is telling me is that if I want to make my Remington 700 into a custom rifle, the most I can expect is a plastic stock and a new barrel. I think I could do a whole lot better. Just because a custom rifle is based on a Mauser or Winchester 70 action doesn't mean it's the holy grail of custom rifles.
Posts: 598 | Location: Missouri | Registered: 16 June 2000
Posts: 8346 | Location: Jennings Louisiana, Arkansas by way of Alabama by way of South Carloina by way of County Antrim Irland by way of Lanarkshire Scotland. | Registered: 02 November 2001
I took another look at the model 70 today. I'll stick with the Sako 75. A superb rifle.
By the way, for all of you that put so much importance on controlled round feeding of the Winnie, remember that Weatherby doesn't have it and they are well known as the big game rifle for the elite. If Weatherby though it was, they would have re-designed the action when they changed production of their actions to Saco Industries. I just don't think CRF really matters.
quote:Originally posted by Eagle Eye: By the way, for all of you that put so much importance on controlled round feeding of the Winnie, remember that Weatherby doesn't have it and they are well known as the big game rifle for the elite.
Give me a break!
Weatherby owners have been stereotyped by guides and professional hunters as rich snobs who don't know the first thing about rifles or hunting and know even less about shooting. The big adds in the fifties and sixties of the rich and famous with their Weatherbys had every rich slob running to the sporting goods store to buy a Weatherby. After all how else would anyone know how important they are if they show up in camp with anything other than a "Weatherby, big game rifle of the rich and famous"?
Jason
[This message has been edited by J Brown (edited 01-06-2002).]
You know I spent a serious amount of time hunting with an M-40 back in the 60s(thats a Remington 700)for the non-military types, and my prey was shooting back with lead squirters. Funny thing I cannot remember a problem with feeding or ejecting. If it had happened I would remember.
Posts: 614 | Location: Miami, Florida USA | Registered: 02 March 2001
Weatherby came along with a exciting lineup of rifles and cartridges at exactly the right place and time. That outfit made a real and lasting impact on the marketplace, the effects of which changed performance expectations forevermore. Roy Weatherby knew salesmanship and marketing, and for quite some time did indeed court the wealthy segment of hunters. This has changed significantly over the last fifteen or twenty years. Today Weatherby has something for everyone, and they're mostly trying to sell performance these days, but the showy stuff's still available if that's to your taste.
The Mark V rifles tend to feed pretty well, and are well-made actions. I don't care for the non-fixed firing pin, not do I care for that confounded ball bearing bolt sleeve detent, but other than that I like the Mark V very much.
I'll throw 2 cents in: I just traded off a model 70 stainless in .300 win mag. Wouldn't shoot a lick. 4 inches was the best it would do. In agreement with an earlier post, it DID feel like there was sandpaper in the action. I noticed lots of references to rebarrelling winchesters as I ran down the list.
Traded the winchester for a remintgon bdl in .300 win mag. 1.5" groups right out of the box. I've owned 6 remingtons now, and none failed to shoot good groups first time every time.
For what its worth: my local gunshop says they heard from the Nosler rep that Winchester has gone downhill (again) recently. Maybe they never really got it turned around from the late 70s?
to close: I agree with the suggestion that said borrow rifles from your local range. I'll let anyone who asks shoot. Hell, I usually offer if someone acts interested in what I'm shooting. Buying any new gun is an act of faith...some just won't shoot, just like some cars spend a lot of time in the shop.
Posts: 181 | Location: Anchorage, AK, USA | Registered: 28 December 2001
Well, I am not certain that Winchester (USRAC) was ever up the hill enough to go downhill. The ones I bought in the '70's & '80's were junk and from what I have seen, they still are.
Eagle Eye -- I bought a Post 64 Model 70 Winchester chambered in .300 Win mag in 1973. It has never been in the hands of a gunsmith. It will shoot one hole groups, that means all shots touching each other, at 100 yards with a Nosler Partition 180 gr. bullet going 3100 fps. It will do that for both my, my son, and 12 year old grandson. I have a new Model 70, less that two years old, in .358 STA that will shoot a one hole group with a 225 and 250 gr. North Fork bullet, and a 280 gr. Swift A-Frame bullet. The older Model 70 has been all over the West, and Alaska. It has killed numerous Elk, 14-Caribou, Brown Bear, and over two hundred Deer. It is beat up and ugly. The newer Model 70 is a gorgeous piece out of the Winchester Custom Shop, that had everything done you can possibly think of after I got it new. Two extremes, but neither junk. In addition to the Winchesters I shoot Remington, Browning, Weatherby, Ruger, Sako, Ballard, Cooper. I will put those two rifles up against any rifle anywhere, anytime in the shooting department. Good shooting.
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[This message has been edited by phurley (edited 01-07-2002).]
Phantom Duck;There is no way you can compare a 40 to the 700's that are currently being produced.I like and own both the 700 and 70 but an older 700 would be best.I cant believe all the posts putting down the Winchester 3-position safety.There is a gunsmith near where I live who converts rem. safety to 3-position and he is covered up with work.Last year there was a 14 year old boy killed in Bozeman when a 700 fired while his mother was unloading it.The child was standing on the other side of a horse trailer and the round passed through the trailer and struck the child it was a terrible tragedy.Remington ran radio adds all through hunting season locally cautioning people that the potential for this exists.
Posts: 610 | Location: MT | Registered: 01 December 2001
quote:Originally posted by gophershooter: Last year there was a 14 year old boy killed in Bozeman when a 700 fired while his mother was unloading it.The child was standing on the other side of a horse trailer and the round passed through the trailer and struck the child it was a terrible tragedy.
Unfortunately, although this was a terrible tragedy, it was also a preventable accident because the mother did not practice good gun handling while unloading this rifle -- it should have been pointed at the ground in such a way that if it fired, the bullet would go in the ground.
Having said that, while I have only Remington 700s now, I do much prefer the Winchester 3-position safety because it locks the firing pin instead of the trigger. The much-less-safe safety on the Remington 700 locks only the trigger.
In fact, the Model 70 3-position safety, when it's in the middle position, allows you to completely unscrew the firing pin assembly from the bolt and remove it.
Imagine if you are doing your handloading in your house basement, as I do, and you want to put a newly-loaded round in your rifle to make sure it chambers properly. If I do this with one of my Remington 700s or with any rifle other than a Model 70 with its 3-position safety, I'm always extremely nervous, even though I have the gun pointed at the concrete wall in the corner of the room. When I did this with a Winchester Model 70 I'd first remove the firing pin from the bolt of the rifle. Imagine how very much less nervous that made me!
[This message has been edited by LE270 (edited 01-07-2002).]
Posts: 5883 | Location: People's Republic of Maryland | Registered: 11 March 2001
I have little knowledge on either rifle, I do own a model 700 in 22/250 and have owned one in .270. The 22/250 is a vssf and all I have done is had the trigger done and it is a real good shooter as are the two rifles in the same caliber my friends own, we were however dissapointed at the finish and the way they looked out of the box, all had marks and dings and had obviously been poorly finished. We all decided that they send the junky looking ones to Australia because were to far away to complain.
Have been looking at getting a .375 H&H to complement my .416. How does the sako 75 compare to winchester 70's and rem 700's???. From all the posts I have read here there are many complaints from both rifles and makes a new buyer want to steer away from both brands, would it be a better bet to buy a sako???. Others on this forum have stated to get the rifle in a cz same as the .416. After reading all the complaints on this thread I do not think I will buy one in a win or rem.
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[This message has been edited by PC (edited 01-07-2002).]
Posts: 7505 | Location: Australia | Registered: 22 May 2002
Well, it seems like everyone here has an opinion so I'll throw out mine. If you want to have one or the other, buy the &00. But don't stop there. Take it to a good rifle smith and have him finish it, the way it should have been done by Remington. Remove the barrel, check the action for square, lengthen out the throat to allow seating bullets further forward, have the bolt cut and a Sako extractor fitted. Fit the stock to the action and glass bed it (or use a Rimrock or Macmillian synthetic) and free float the barrel for starters. Get my drift? Now if you want to buy either gun and leave it like it comes from the factory, I don't think you are going to find much difference between them, other than the features the different rifles are designed with. Otherwise, make up your mind to spend the money to have the gun "fixed" or be willing to accept it as it is. The used gun racks are full of rifles that people bought and found they didn't like very much - after they bought them. As for all the references to the "one-hole" groups, I ain't seen all you guys shoot so I won't call anybody anything. But in my experience, sub-moinute of angle rifles are pretty rare and the guys that can make them shoot that way are even rarer. No, I also don't call anyone's wife ugly or make fun of their dog! "Shoot straight, shoot safe and shoot a lot!" Regards,
I know that I am going to open a can of worms with this but from a Gunsmiths perspective I think the Weatherby action is Absolute garbage! For starters, how many of those bolt lugs do you think actually make solid contact in the receiver?
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Posts: 8346 | Location: Jennings Louisiana, Arkansas by way of Alabama by way of South Carloina by way of County Antrim Irland by way of Lanarkshire Scotland. | Registered: 02 November 2001
Well Gents: I shoot Winnies, and I'm stickin' to it. The Stealth .223 shoots in the .3s with 69 gr. SMKs. The Sharpshooter .308 does .3s-.4s with 175 SMKs. The 7mm Mag Laredo does .7 with ordinary factory Fed Classic 175s. Haven't had time to work up any loads. I'm sure Remmys are all right, but make mine Winchester/USRA. Jack2, pick one and stick some Badgers on it.
Posts: 122 | Location: Halstad, MN USA | Registered: 24 October 2001
quote:Originally posted by Bear Claw: I know that I am going to open a can of worms with this but from a Gunsmiths perspective I think the Weatherby action is Absolute garbage! For starters, how many of those bolt lugs do you think actually make solid contact in the receiver?
Ah, Bearclaw, you wouldn't by any chance be one to cheat, now would you? I've had to put this to some die-hard Weatherby owner's by putting some layout blue on the bolt lugs, then putting the bolt back in the receiver and pulling it out again. Sure does put an abrupt end to arguments! Let me say they can be lapped into contact with enough time and work but most interrupted thread breech blocks - and this is really what the Weatherby is - just don't fit up like folks think they do. Really a good point you have made. "Shoot straight, shoot safe and shoot a lot!" Regards,
I worked for many years as a gunsmith connected with retail operations and performed warranty repair for both companies. Neither the win M70 or the Remington 700 had much in the way of problems. While Remington was trying that stupid snapin extractor (early to mid eighties) they had extractor problems. Once they went back to the riveted in extractor they were fine again. Winchesters major problem was split stocks for whatever reason. Both brands showed a similar number of problems with safeties. Keep in mind that none of these problems were rampant they just showed up from time to time. My impression was that after glass bedding etc accuracy was similar on average. Winchester barrels were (and are)straighter as are the chambers. Remington bolts fit better. Action threads in winchesters (new model post 78) are straighter. Remingtons a little easier to work on if doing a full accuracy job and more aftermarket accessories available. In the winchesters I actually prefer the push feed. The only crf rifles that really work well are Mausers and pre-64s with the Mausers really having the edge in this regard. In the end the choice comes down to which rifle feels best. Neither design is vastly superior and both have flaws but both can work well. Most factory rifles I have always considered to be a rifle "kit" which you bought then finished! Regards, Bill.
I dont mean for this to sound ugly but from a hunting guides perspective I think most hunters would be better off with a decent shooting Remington or winchester and spend their time and money practiceing and becomeing proficent with it as opposed to spending mega-bucks on a high end rifle and not be able to shoot it.I see to many people come out here spend their hard earned money and not have a succesful humt because they only pick up their rifles once or twice a year.my two-cents
Posts: 610 | Location: MT | Registered: 01 December 2001
Boy, the Remington Defenders are sounding like democrats, half truths and myths, if you repeat them long enough they'll come true. The concept that Remingtons are more accurate than Winchesters is pure nonsense.
That three rings of steel is just an excuse for making a cheaper, easier to mass produce action. Eagle Eye is right, the reason why Model 70s were POS during the 70s is because they were made EXACTLY like 700 are made today. Push feed, sloppy rifles with brazed on bolt handles that sometimes fall off, puny extractors and plungers that tend to clog under adverse conditions and safeties with spotty records. I don't know where *I* am buying my Model 70s but the last three I've bought, two Super Grades and an LT have been quite satisfactory, well made 1"@ 100 yard rifles. CUstom rifles? sure if you want a "quickie custom" rifle I'm sure a 700 will do just fine, but the BEST custom rifles sport Mod 70 or Mauser actions.If you want a bench rest rifle to shoot holes in paper or metal animals, go with a Remington. ANd how about that 710? jorge
Posts: 7145 | Location: Orange Park, Florida. USA | Registered: 22 March 2001
If you are comparing current manufacture of Remington 700's and the current Winchester Model 70's then you are getting a better value and a better Rifle in so many ways by choosing the Remington 700! Anyone that would berate the trigger of a current Remington 700 (after being adjusted by a competent Riflesmith) is simply out of touch with reality. Remington 700's to this day are consistently more accurate than the current form of Model 70's - again to deny this shows a persons lack of experience with the two! The Remingtons are more accurate and are not unsafe - the Remington trigger is significantly better than any vintage Winchester Model 70! I am not saying the Winchester Model 70 is an ugly Rifle or an unsafe Rifle or on occassion they are not accurate. I know better but the bottom line is the Remington will the vast majority of the time be more accurate! It will have a better trigger (once adjusted!) and be safe and reliable enough to be the most popular (highest number sold!) bolt action Hunting Rifle ever made! I own a lot of Winchester pre-64 Model 70's - a LOT OF THEM! They were and are a fantastic Rifle. Safe, well made, accurate, resilient, attractive and mdeof the best materials! But to compare the current manufacture Model 70 to the old model is a joke! A BAD JOKE! The current manufacture Model 70 can not hold a candle to the pre-64 Model 70! I have never kept a post 64 Model 70 I have owned for even one year! I have just never been happy with them. I have about 35 Remington 700's (and 7 Remington 40X's) and I shoot them all and enjoy owning each and every one of them. The custom Riflesmiths I know customize 10 Remingtons 700's for every current manufacture Model 70 they rework! That should tell you something there! Meanwhile pre-64 Model 70 actions are actively sought out for customizing! It sounds to me like advocates of the current manufacture Model 70's are the ones sounding like democrats! Telling half truths, misrepresentations and telling tales of circumstances they have no knowledge of! My gawd people get a grip! Buy the Remington 700 or like someone suggested look around for a well cared for pre-64 Model 70! If you do not like the "lawyer lock" on the bolt (J-lock) of the Remington 700 then buy a new bolt shroud! Hollands Gunsmithing I heard is selling them. I can not recommend a current manufacture Model 70 over a current manufacture Remington 700. I think you will be more satisfied with the Remington and if you are not the resale value of the Remington is better - more demand by far! Good luck with whichever you choose! Hold into the wind VarmintGuy PS: Regarding the "unsafe" trigger of the Remington 700 safety in the accidental shooting death of the 10 year old boy here in Montana a couple year ago. An article ran here about the father and his representative and a represetative of the Remington company and a Remington lawyer going to the Sheriff's where the Remingtn 700 in question is stored as evidence! They tried to make the Remington 700 in question misfire! They all tried to make it misfire for some time! The RIFLE WOULD NOT MISFIRE according to the article! When I later asked the father of the tragically accidentally killed child if in fact the newspaper report was correct - he avoided answering the question. This question was asked at a well attended meeting of the Beaverhead Outdoors Association here in SW Montana! The purpose of this meeting with the father who had volunteered to spread the word on Remingtons "unsafe" triggers", was to discuss the tragic event and prevent any repeats. At least that is what we were told before the meeting! Once AT THE MEETING our club president informed us that no questions would be allowed in regards to the safe or unsafe pointing of that Rifle in the direction of that child! Again, the father of that angel of a child would not answer my direct question concerning the ability of him and his representative and the people from Remington in front of the Sheriff getting that Rifle to misfire! I was therefore left to believe the written article was correct. The Rifle could not be made to misfire! I told the father I had owned over 100 Remington 700's, 40X's and other Remington Rifles using the 700 style trigger and I had fired them far in excess of 100,000 times and I had never had a "misfire"! I also asked him directly if he thought the Rifles I have been buying for myself and for MY 4 children have unsafe triggers. He stated YES! He did demonstrate at this meeting a Remington Model 700 that he could make "misfire" repeatedly - he got the Rifle to misfire by sticking a Hunting knife blade tip into the trigger area and manuevering the blade tip around! The Rifle would then slam fire once! The knife needed to be manuevered again to cause another misfire! When I tried to create a slamfire - without knife manipulation it would not misfire! This was a well used Remington 700 of unknown to me history! Gather from my observations and questions what you will! I still buy Remington 700's for myself and my children!
Posts: 3067 | Location: South West Montana | Registered: 20 August 2002
Well, I should know better than to respond but ANYONE who really owns pre-64 Model 70s and current Mod 70s and says with a straight face that 700s are better made is laughable. The Model 70 trigger is the acknowledged epitome and the most used trigger on custom guns. Hell,even when the military switched to the Model 700 for their sniper rifles ( because they stopped making Model 70s) they KEPT the 70s trigger. Accuracy? Anybody credible knows better. So please, if you like 700s say so, but don't sit there and tell us that 700s are god's gift to riflery and 70s are junk. jorgev.
Posts: 7145 | Location: Orange Park, Florida. USA | Registered: 22 March 2001
Seems this thread has taken on a life of its own. Kinda like the "I hunt with Sierra Match bullets" of a while back. It also seems that no one here can talk up his choice without trashing the other fellows rifle. But I'll try: I have been hunting on both sides of the big river for over 40 years. I have had and do have a bunch of Remingtons. I have never had a trigger problem, nor a safety problem, nor a feeding problem, nor an accuracy problem with any of them. And we are talking about probably 30 guns or more. None of them have ever had to be sent to a gun smith to be tuned, nor alligned, nor blue printed, etc before they would shoot. Other than a bit of tinkering with the trigger and bedding the action by me, they are pretty much as they came from the box. And they will all shoot under an inch or very close to it if the trigger nut works right. Why did I pick Remingtons??? My dad shot a Remington and the first rifle I bought "with my very own money" was a Remington. I have not found a reason, real or imagined, to change.
Posts: 2037 | Location: frametown west virginia usa | Registered: 14 October 2001
Bemanbeme's post is one I can live with. He just plain likes Remingtons and that's fine. What's more important everything he says I believe. I've owned few Remingtons and have had bad luck with them. Jorge
Posts: 7145 | Location: Orange Park, Florida. USA | Registered: 22 March 2001
Remingtons are great! I think most, if not all, riflemen and women should limit their arsenal to the Remington offerings. They are a good value. (The following is being said under my breath - That way I can snap up all of the Winchesters without other buyers competing for the good stuff)
Since everyone else has logged in on the subject, I will say that Remingtons are at the bottom of my list, right above Blaser and Weatherbee. I know they usually shoot ok but I just don't like them and that's enough reason for me.
Posts: 3174 | Location: Warren, PA | Registered: 08 August 2002
Since everbody is putt'n in their .02 I thought I might as well put in mine. I've owned both Mod. 70's and Mod.700's, some old and some of the newer ones. The older Mod.700's were deffently more accurate than the newer models(I've got an older .270 that is as accurate today as it was 25yrs. ago, I also have a newer Mod.700 Mountain Rifle in a .260 that has never lived up to it's potential). With that said my Mod.70FW has also been very accurate since day one, while both the late model Super Grades have had bedding problems that needed to be corrected. I think getting an accurate rifle from a factory today, regardless which manufacture it maybe is more of the luck, buck and the draw than anything else. So take your pick and hope you get lucky.
Remington leads the list (by a huge margin to say the least) in factory recalls. I wouldn't be calling them the safest. Where's Jack at? He knows alot about that subject. Give me a Model 70. They're proven. Oh yeah, their Bolt Action Gun of the Century! I wonder why?
Posts: 1005 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 23 August 2002
I own several Winchester 70's and about 5 times as many Remington 700's. I will readily admit that I favor the 700's for my purposes. Most 700's I have are as accurate as any factory rifle can be expected to be. All my M70's are wearing aftermarket barrels [for obvious reasons]As for recent Remingtons, they are not quite as well fitted as they once were, but as far as my experience goes, my latest Remington is without a doubt, one of the most accurate rifles I have ever owned, out-of-box. It's a 700SSDM in 30-06. Only change is a trigger adjustment. If one is seking a bread and butter hunting rifle, either the M70 or the M700 will do OK. If you plan to go to the local competition on a weekend once in awhile, you'll need to do some work to either to get them competitive. That said, 90% of all competition guns are built on 700 actions or their clones. Regards, the original Eagleye.
I have almost always shot strictly remington 700's they shoot well out of the box and any tuning it needs you can do at home I have no plans on changing brands simply because why fix it if it aint broken.
I have ordered a HS-Precision Varmint rifle for an equal use and would like to have your opinions about their system/rifles because the informations available here in Germany are rare. G�tz
Of the nine centerfire rifles I own, 6 are M 700's 2 are 788's, and 1 is a M70. I like all of them. I also know that I would NOT buy a new Remington since they have started the keyed bolt. Damn, just take the firing pin out of the bolt. I know the new M 70 Stealths will shoot very well right out of the box. I do wish Remington would use a 3 position saftey. Of all the rifles the 788's were the best for out of the box accuracy. Both would .5 MOA right out of the box with a good load. None of M 700's would and the M 70 wouldn't. If M 70's = Chevy and M 700 = Ford, I own far more Fords, but if I shopping for a new one It would be a Chevy hands down!
Shoot Safe, Shoot Straight.......RiverRat
Posts: 413 | Location: Owensville, Indiana USA | Registered: 04 July 2001
Nearly 14,000 rounds through my first pre 64 Mod. 70 National Match without a single mechanical malfunction (unless you want to count replacing 3 barrels )and 3600 through another just like it. Have no idea how many rounds have gone through my two Mod. 70 hunting rifles (one pre64, one post), but no problems there either.
Bought a new 40XC (Just a model 700 tuned by Rem. custom shop) and the first round through the new gun was an accidental discharge when I moved the safety to the off position. (Nope, my finger was no where near the trigger!)
Sure fond of that Mod. 70 safety which locks the firing pin, not just the trigger.
quote:Originally posted by 'Trapper': Well, it seems like everyone here has an opinion so I'll throw out mine. If you want to have one or the other, buy the &00. But don't stop there. Take it to a good rifle smith and have him finish it, the way it should have been done by Remington. Remove the barrel, check the action for square, lengthen out the throat to allow seating bullets further forward, have the bolt cut and a Sako extractor fitted. Fit the stock to the action and glass bed it (or use a Rimrock or Macmillian synthetic) and free float the barrel for starters. Get my drift?
Yeah, I get your drift. Just get a damn Sako 75 and be done with it. After all the BS you describe above, you have spent MORE than it would have cost for a 75, you still have a Remington (with its correspondingly lower resale value), and it may or may not outshoot the Sako.
About the only thing I have agreed on so far with Eagle Eye is that the Sako 75 is the finest off-the-rack bolt action rifle made today.
Posts: 2206 | Location: USA | Registered: 31 August 2002
Someone in Bristol, CT built a beautiful brick house on a tiny lot right on a busy avenue. I notice it as it's a short cut that everyone uses. The house has a light colored very attractive brick and outstanding architecture. It must be about 4000 sq ft but it only has a three car garage due to the tiny lot. All of the other houses around it are of average size.
This story is to illustrate why one should sellect a M 70 over a 700 if one is going to keep the gun or upgrade it. The Remington 721/700 series is of a design that lends itself to very cheap manufacuring yet with good shooting results. The M 70 design is far superior but may take some fitting to get it right.
So if I were to buy a target rifle today or need a rifle quick for a prarie dog hunt I would get a Remington. If I wanted a rifle to keep and tune then the M 70 is the one. They both shoot really well when set up right. These guys saying that Rems shoot better than M 70's have not been on the line where where your bullet goes is checked and the score kept. M 70's shoot!
That house in Bristol is for sale now. I don't think they got half the investment back. Location is a M 70. If your going to dump the rifle after the prarie dog shoot then the Remington may be a cheap way out.
Just like other products both rifles work. This is just my experianced opinion. I have Remington 40X's for competative shooting and M 70's for hunting.
The new M70's however have a bolt body that is copper brazed together. Now this is ok and at least better than the Rems that are a three piece braze job. But for a rifle to invest big money in I am not so sure about the new 70's.
I am going to try a Montana M1999 and see how that works out.
![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon}
they are pretty much as they came from the box. And they will all shoot under an inch or very close to it if the trigger nut works right. Why did I pick Remingtons??? My dad shot a Remington and the first rifle I bought "with my very own money" was a Remington. I have not found a reason, real or imagined, to change.
![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon}
