Now, if I was you, I would expand your choices a bit and look at the Tikka and the Sako lines as well. The Tikka is probably the best buy out there for the money and the Sako is even better, although a lot more expensive. They have free floated barrels, a nice trigger, good workmanship and they tend to be tack drivers right out of the box. (By the way, they are both made at the same factory in Finnland). Another possible choice is Savage...good value for the money. Hope this helps you.

Having said all that, however, I now have 4 Remington 700s and no Model 70s! In my experience, the Model 70s I have dealt with have not been as accurate out of the box as the Rem 700s have been.

I'm also leery of the Tikka. I've had experience with only one, but it was a dog as a shooter. I liked the way it looked and felt, and it had a better trigger and smoother action than any of my Remington 700s. But, alas, I could not get it to shoot well. I've also heard anecdotal remarks from a gunsmith that many Tikkas are not good shooters. That's not much evidence -- your mileage may vary -- but that's what I know about them.

[This message has been edited by LE270 (edited 01-02-2002).]

For a Tactical type rifle The Rem 700 is the most used and customized and has the most aftermarket upgrades available.

For a durable wilderness hunting rifle the Winchester has features that I prefer:

Steel bottom metal
Safety locks the firing pin
Simple to clean/adjust trigger
Simple to disassemble/clean bolt
Robust extractor/fixed ejector
Heavy integral recoil lug
Flat bottom receiver

MM

Jarrett

[This message has been edited by Finley (edited 01-03-2002).]

I also have a pre-64 in .35 Whelan AI which has had some work done to it. So I can't really talk about out of the box, but I do know that with a little work they shoot like dreams.

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It is not enough to fight for natural land and the west; it is even more important to enjoy it. While you can. While it's still there. So get out there and hunt and fish and mess around with your friends...Enjoy yourselves, keep your brain in your head and your head firmly attached to the body, the body active and alive, and I promise you this much: I promise you this one sweet victory over our enemies, over those deskbound men with their hearts in a safe-deposit box and their eyes hypnotized by desk calculators. I promise you this: you will outlive the bastards.

- Edward Abbey

That said, the 700's design lends it to better results under mass production, therefore, ususally better performance in "out-of-the-box" condition. The extractor is the weakest link on the 700 and is prone to failure with high pressure loadings or dirty brass/chamber.

If you intend to use the rifle just as it comes from the factory, get the Remington. If you are willing to invest some time and maybe a little judicious gunsmithing money, then buy the Winchester.

I would also look at the Ruger and Tikka. I like Rugers scope mounting system.

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NRA Life member

I personally prefer the Mauser 98 design, and it's derivatives, Win M70 pre-64 and classic, and the Ruger M77 Mk II.

The question is, what is most important to you? What attributes make a gun better? Do you want one that is easier to fieldstrip and work on in the field? Are you after absolute bench accuracy? Do you know what CRF stands for, and/or do you give a darn about this feature. Either gun will take game, whats better is what you like best.

It is my belief either gun out of the box is more then accurate enough for most hunters. I'd venture to say if you take an off the shelf offering from either company, it would be a coin toss as to which one were more accurate, though are you talking a single factory load, 1/2 dozen loads, or handloads? If you took 10 from each manufacturer, and did accuracy tests, you might see a difference one way or the other, then maybe it would be too close to call. No one has done that test, so the accuracy claims are purely subjective.

It is also true that either gun can benefit from gunsmithing. I'd recomend any factory rifle have a trip to a QUALIFIED gunsmith to have the trigger pull safely reduced to ~3#'s, as well as smoothed out.

I had some bad luck with a Winchester shotgun in my youth, so I guess I have always carried a prejudice towards their firearms. However, Winchester is my preferred factory ammo. Go figure.

As far as the Ruger rifles go, my experience has been either they shoot or they don't. There does not seem to be a middle ground. Don't get me wrong, I own Ruger products. One strong point for Ruger is their customer service. It is one of the best I have seen. BTW what is the deal? Are they making their own barrels now or not? I have heard different stories on this.

Paul H- CRF = Controlled Round Feed

quote:

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Originally posted by MontanaMarine:
For a minute I thought CRF stood for Condescending Ranting Fool. MM

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Yessss! This gave me the best laugh I've had today!

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These days, all I use are Model 70s. Actually, my main hunting battery is comprised of several custom rifles that are built on Model 70 actions.

In many ways, the highest and best use for the average Model 70 is to take it apart for the action and send it to a first-rate riflemaker for a custom job. Good gunsmithing will eliminate just about all of the potential bugs that come with the Model 70 package, and forever dispel any notion that only rifles based on the Remington 700 action are capable of producing tiny groups. The Model 70 can provide all of the accuracy you'd ever ask for, as well superior feeding, function, plus better safety features. I can't think of a single reason to choose any other bolt action.

AD

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NRA Life member

[This message has been edited by Eagle Eye (edited 01-03-2002).]

Why don't you find a use pre-64 M70 in the caliber you desire? .30-06 and .270's are plentiful enough that you should be able to find one in very good to excellent condition for abount the same price that you would pay for a new M70 or M700. I own several pre-64 M70's and all are shooters and all are unaltered out of the box save for trigger jobs. In fact every pre-64 that I own, from .257 Roberts to .338 WM will feed empties from the magazine. And thats with no stoning or polishing! I don't think that your chances of finding a new M700 or M70 that can do that out of the box are slim. If you are set on a new rifle my vote would go to the M70 as it is a direct decendent( well, sort of) of the pre-64.

[This message has been edited by DavidReed (edited 01-03-2002).]

Mauser action, Stainless steel, 3 position safety (action mounted), integral scope mounts, what else ??

IMHO,

Being as objective as I can:
The Remington action will be lighter than the Winchester.
The Remington bolt will be smoother than a new, i.e. not a pre �64, Winchester (sorry guys, IMHO there is no contest). New Winchester bolts can bind if you inadvertently apply upward pressurewith the heel of the hand when you try to push it forward. By bind, I mean they are stuck � won�t go forward. Push straight in and there�s no problem I�ve had a few Remington bolts do this, but not all, and the severity of the binding is not as much as the Winchester. Sorry � that�s a bit of a subjective view but true in my expereience.
The Remington long action magazine will be longer than the Winchester if that means anything. The Winchester short action mag is longer than the Remington.
The Remington safety is more convenient and easier to take off silently, but the Winchester safety is much safer.
Remington�s two piece trigger connector can lead to a �Fire on Safety Release� if you let gunk or old oil build up in the mechanism. Not an epidemic, but the problem definitely exists.
Remington triggers can be adjusted finely by turning screws. Winchester triggers can be adjusted finely by turning locknuts, and maybe a bit of judicious stoning. If I had to make a judgement I�d say that the Remington trigger can be more easily adjusted to give a crisper pull, but I have a certain Model 70 that releases at 2 pounds like that proverbial glass rod breaking and passes all of the drop and bolt slamming test sI can give it.
Winchester bolts can be very easily field stripped. Remington bolts can be field stripped, but it is a bit harder.
Winchesters hold five in the mag, Remingtons four. Make that four and three for magnum calibers.
Winchester�s will feed a little smoother than Remingtons. That�s another sort of subjective viewpoint but again, holds true for all examples in my experience. They both feed, the Remingtons just seem to have more friction.
Winchester actions are �busier� than Remingtons.
Older Remingtons had the reputation of the most accurate �out of the box� but recent quality control issues in chambering and such may have eliminated that. My three latest M700�s don�t match up to the accuracy of the previous several bought over the last 25 years. Of my four Model 70�s two shot great and two shot sh*tty. Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chances.

Just have to determine what the most important criteria is for YOU.

Purely subjective comments:
Absolute importance of CRF � hell, I don�t know. I like it but have had extraction or ejection problems with some Winchesters due to quality control problems. The relationship of the feed rails, tension of the claw extractor and so forth seem to be more critical to get CRF to work properly. I�ve never had a feeding jam with my push feed Remingtons going back some 25 years and 13 or 14 examples of Model 700�s.

I think CRF is really a moot point unless you are actually going to follow big grizzlies in the alders of buffalo in the thick jesse. Then I�d go with a PROVEN RELIABLE CRF rifle, but only because the guys that do these things regularly say I should. Both CRF and push feed have worked well for gazillions of deer and elk hunters so for non-dangerous game hunting I just wouldn�t worry about it much.

I bought three newly made Model 700�s without the J-lock when I learned that Remington was changing over to it so I would at least have three good non-Jlock actions. One of the rifles was great, one was flawed cosmetically and one was a pure POS. I returned the POS and Remington replaced it with a terrific rifle.

If you want a Remington, shop the gun shows and get one eight or ten years old. From my limited sampl;e you have about a 66% chance of getting a better made rifle than what you will find on the new gun racks today. Brand new Winchesters I can�t speak of from personal experience. I last bought a M70 two years ago. Actually, I bought my first two Model 70�s ever in 1998 as that was the first year left hand actions were produced. Sent them both back for cosmetic and functioning problems and Winchester fixed them up pretty good. It is my understanding that the new ones coming from the new South Carolina plant ain�t all that great either.

quote:

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Originally posted by Eagle Eye:
Yeah, and which action is used more than any other for custom rifles? It sure isn't a Winnie. I'll give you a hint, it's nick name is Big Green.

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If you consider a re-barrel job and plastic stock a custom, then by all means it's the 700.

Now, if you are talking a fine custom rifle, the two actions used are the M-98 mauser and the Win M70 pre-64 and classic.

I appologize for my previous post, I was trying to be diplomatic and not start a pi**ing match, guess I missed the mark.

The real question is, what does the original poster consider most important to him as to how he defines the best rifle.

If one has a strong opinion one way or the other, then there mind is made up, if one has to ask the question, they'll likely be happy with either.