not to start a debate. I like handloading in both these and only use the 200grain bullets in the 06 and the 175 bullets in the 7mag. which do you guys prefer? and why, i hunt everything except big bears.

Razorback,

I prefer the 7mm Rem Mag with 175 gr. Nosler partitions, as it has worked for me very well on all kinds of animals.

The .30-06, however will work just as well, and with the 220 gr. bullet, is probably a much better bushveldt cartridge (within 200 yards or so), as it will penetrate all day long, and damage a minimum of meat.

I would say to use whichever one you can shoot better. For me that happens to be the 7mm.

Joel Slate
Slate & Associates, LLC
www.slatesafaris.com

7mm Rem Mag Page www.slatesafaris.com/7mm.htm

We have clients hunt with both on a regular basis. I can find no fault with either round. I like the 175 grs bullets from swift for the 7mm and the Woodleighs for my 30 06. As of late the Speer hot cores have done well for me.

I much prefer the 7mm for it's flatter trajectory.I does anything the 30-06 will do and does it at longer ranges.

[This message has been edited by stubblejumper (edited 04-04-2002).]

7MM RemMag!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

------------------
From my cold, dead hands!
Thanks Chuck!

I've used the 7mm Mag with 175 gr bullets for years with fine success.

This year I am taking the 30-06 with 180 gr bullets just to see if there is any difference.

I'll report my findings when I get back.

I realy doubt there will be much difference.

I've used both but not with the heavy bullets mentioned on this thread.

I have had good success with bullet weights in the 150 to 165gr range. The only difference I have seen is the 06 leaves a larger entrance hole...and perhaps the 06 has slightly more recoil.

IMHO, both calibers are tit for tat.

------------------
boman

The 7mm has the advantage of flatter trajectory.
The 30/06 has the advantage of greater bullet weight and two more rounds in the magazine. Regards, Bill.

I load them both. I use 140 gr x bullets in the 7mm with VV N165 and 165 gr Sierra SBT(yes, Sierra)pushed by VV N550 in the '06. They work for me.

I agree with JR that the 30-06 is going to be a much better bushveldt round. From 110 grain varmint bullets up to the 220 grainer for large game, the 30-06 far outshines the 7mm Rem Mag in my opinion due to the availability of heavier bullets and greater variety of weights available for specific purposes. As to the benefit that the 7mm provides with regard to trajectory . . . just get closer, thats why its called hunting.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

The 7mmRemMag was the "Ultra-Mag-flimflam" of its day. Its funny but most of the "long shot storys" I hear involve the 7mm Rem Mag, of course there are never independant witness's. Im still scratching my head over this statement that "the 7 mag shoots flatter then the '06" , can someone explain to me where in the "real world" this exists ? Only with Matchkings maybe ?

After 350 yrds both rounds start dropping like stones. You have to use a much bigger case, with a lot more powder, behind the same size bullet, to get anything more. And in the real world how much more are you going to get, and how much are you going to use it ?

The 7mm Mag hit the market when an awful lot of Americans had an awful lot of money, and started haveing an awful lot of tiem to chase big game. And with all of those conditions you certainly couldnt do it with a cartridge that had been around for 50+ years. You had to have something new and shiney to fondle, with brand new velocity charts haveing meaningless numbers printed on them.

I think the 7mm mag diverted to many hunters from a "real" 7mm classic, the 7mm-08. Of course the 7x57 is , and always has been, a fabulous round.

The 7mm Mag was the first of the "corporate flim-flams" visited on by the new Corporate gun combine. Personaly I'll stick to my .270s and .30's, and if I want a meaningful move up it would be to a .33 or .35.

No offence intended to any 7mm mag owners......J

I have .270's, 30-06's and a 7mm Rem Mag, and the 7mm is way beyond the performance of the 30-06. It has more velocity, more energy, flatter trajectory, less windrift, quicker time of flight, deeper penetration, I never hunt with the 30-06, it's just obsolete.

When it comes to close and nasty shooting the 3006 is much better than any 7mm. When you can shoot a 220 or 250 it penetrates alot better that the 175 out of the 7mm. At close rang penetration is more important than velocity. Out at 100m the guns with 180 grs bullet fly about the same, frankly there is no magic to 100m shooting at 300m things start to look a little different. If you can deal with the wind in the Freestate shooting at a Springbok sized target and hit it with a 7mm or a 3006 you are miles ahead than alot of guys that show up with bigger or faster guns. The 3006 is not obsolete it is probably the best centerfire cartridge ever designed, and the most versitile. I guess no one has room for a round that has been proven in the game field and battle fields.

[This message has been edited by alekojjensen (edited 04-06-2002).]

<<<<<<<<I have .270's, 30-06's and a 7mm Rem Mag, and the 7mm is way beyond the performance of the 30-06. It has more velocity, more energy, flatter trajectory, less windrift, quicker time of flight, deeper penetration, I never hunt with the 30-06, it's just obsolete. >>>>>>>>>>

Maybe you can post your loading secrets then, because I can get 3,000 fps in my '06 with a 150grn SPBT, 2900 fps with a 165 grn SPBT, and over 2800fps with a 180 grn pill.Plus I have the luxury of being able to load up to 220 grn bullets, and at meaningful velocitys.

Now pray do tell me what wonderous extra performance you can get from a 7mm Rem Mag ? Forget the SD crap cause I only need to shoot thru one animal at a time and can do it quite nicely with my '06 at any distance you can hit with a 7mm Rem Mag with..............J

JHOOK
How true indeed

Hmm -I've been thinking on this one-guess it's time to get in my words/thoughts/wisdom-well I'm not sure but here goes.

Here are your speeds JHOOK, here is how I match a big 7 to them. I'll use like B.C's (being as you don't think much of S.D's) and sight all loads(all bullets are Noz BT's) in at 100 and am interested in drop at 600. If I had a wind chart I'd add that with but this will have to do for now.

*30cal/150/B.C. of .435 @ 3000fps -minus 77.6" at 600

*7/125/B.C. of .417 @ 3600fps minus 51.4" at 600

difference of 26.2"

*30 cal/165/B.C. of .475 @ 2900 minus 80.8" at 600

*7/140/B.C. of .485 @ 3300 minus 59.1" at 600

difference of 21.7"

*30 ca/180/B.C. of .507 @ 2800 minus 85.3" at 600

*7/150/B.C. of .493 @ 3200 minus 63.2" at 600

difference of 22.1"

Let's see at 600 yards with the bullets and speeds you listed we have the following differences in drop
26.2"
21.7"
22.1"

I'm not sure, but what the heck was it we are arguing about again?

Let's now go to the wind-oh forget it that's enough for now.

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

Oh yeah one other thing I don't see much reason to use the 220 Noz Pt in the 06 but I think it would be fun, for giggles I will compare it with the heaviest PT Nozler has to offer. (and I would love to have a short tubed 06 with a peep and load it with 220's for bear protection.

Here are my thoughts on the comparison anyway-just for fun on a Friday night.

30 cal/220 energy at the muzzle = 3302
drop at 300 =17.3"

7/175 energy at the muzzle=3497
drop at 300 = 10.8"

so the 7 has 200 pounds more energy at the muzzle

and the 7 has what 6.5" less drop at 300

good night night gents-sleep tight

And since damned few can estimate range with accuracy and fewer still can actually hit any thing over 300 yds, its all moot.I use and own both, and once you work out your loads and projectiles, its the difference between dead or dead. My 7mm is happiest with 160 gr Nosler Partitions loaded---DOWN--to about 2900 fps! I love the rifle, but it would be the same regardless of caliber. Yes, I have heard of and even own a rangefinder, but I can't get the animals to stop long enough to range them and shoot, too. It still boils down to estimating distance and shooting from a field position at game that rarely stands around waiting for me to get out all of my fancy toys and do some major field mathmatics. Must be different out here--------Chuck

��The 7mm has the advantage of �flatter trajectory�. The 30/06 has the advantage of greater bullet weight and �two more rounds in the magazine�. Regards, Bill. ��

How about .280 Ackley? Get both...

------------------
Davis Chase

Chuck I would suppose it sort of depends on how you hunt and what type of a hunter you are. But, I basically have no problem with using a range finder for long range shooting.

You probably hunt different than I do so I can understand your point. Personally I feel taht there are a lot of rounds that are a like too 300 and a bit more. It's after that that things start to change.

Just my thoughts on a great Saturday morn.

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

[This message has been edited by Mark R Dobrenski (edited 04-06-2002).]

And Chuck you are right about darn few being able to shoot past 300.
It's all about knowing your limitations and having the discipline to stay within them.

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

Simply put the 7mm Rem mag, has more energy, more velocity, and less drop. It allows you to hit a distant targets easier, and with more energy. If you guys like old slow obsolete cartidges firing heavy slow bullets, get the 45-70!

Mark now your going to tell me youd rather hit a critter with a 7mm/175 , instead of a .30/220, cause of what ? Muzzle energy ? Your kidding right ?

Then you say youd rather "shoot long" with a 7mm/125 then a .30/150 cause of why ? or 7mm/140 over a .30/165 ?, or 7mm/150 over a .30/180 ? Did you really say that "because the 7mm only drops 63.2" at 600 yrds" ?

I mean I live in reality bro, and I dont much care what a round does past 350, or at most 400yrds. And 350+ would be a "perfect calm".

Like I said, "brand new velocity charts with meaningless numbers printed on them". I just wonder how many "3-legged Elk" would have 4 legs if nobody hunted with the 7mm Rem Mag, or the 300 Weatherby.

No insult intended to any owner of either......................J

Take all the tech stuff an the paper and use the paper where it works best..

In the field I cannot tell any difference in ease of hitting at long range and/or killing power..I have used them both and we could toss the 270 in that crowd along with a bunch of others..

Mostly it makes for stimulating conversation around the evening campfire and some heated arguments, but after 60 years it has gotten a little boring...but I would never deprive you of these moments as they are part of the game.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray-I'm glad I ducked that one(grins) if you really want to throw the gloves on the ice that's fine. (I'm refering to your saying to take the hi-tech and use it as tp-personally I believe you could of said it doesn't work for you, and that tis fine with me I would respect that.
Well actually it isn't, I do this for entertainment, poops and giggles when I can't be on the hill. One problem with a lot of this is that it is a lot of opinions. From time to time I think one needs to turn to hi--tech. Do I like it -heck no, I am quite sure I was about the last person in the world to get a VCR,micro wave a chronograph and finally and not but not least the good old puter. I do personally believe I can learn from using hi-tech and such. For you it doesn't work, for me it does. Do I use it often -heck no usually I am out a shooting and learning from doing! And that I do a more than considerable amount. But I do believe that there are things that I and a lot of others can learn from hi-tech.

Just my thoughts on hi-tech matters.

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

and by the way Ray I do agree with your thoughts on the 270-here are my speeds out of my 270 (you'd like it Ray it is a lil G33/40 with a Lilja tube on it in a nice piece of African walnut)
130 Noz Bt=3300
135 MK=3300
150 Noz or Sierra=3100

In terms of hitting at long range however I see life a bit different. Imagaine that 2 people with different opinions. (grins)
I do a lot of shooting at long range (to me long range starts at 400 and goes on out).
I've noticed a considerable difference in hitting a chuck at 500 ot 600 when using a 06 say versus a big 7. The same goes for big game. Just MY thoughts. Now bring out the Zamboni and start up the BBQ'er

[This message has been edited by Mark R Dobrenski (edited 04-07-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Mark R Dobrenski (edited 04-07-2002).]

Hey Mark I misprinted my 3006 numbers. Go ahead and add 100' to 200' per second to them. I live in LaLa land too............good shooting............J

Now to Mr JHOOK- here are my thoughts to you.

About the 7/175 versus the 30/220,it all depends on what the purpose of the load was. If I was to be using one for close range protection I would not be using a 7 or a 30/06 with a 220. I'd be using my 340, my 375 Wby or perhaps my 416 Taylor. My main thought here was to say that the 7 load has more energy both near and far. And add to that the 7 load will shoot much flatter than the 30/220. Now for more "hi-tech".

30/220 @ 2500 drops 39.7 at 400 and has 1411 for energy

7/175 @ 3000 drops 29 @ 400 and has 2067 for energy (and by the way I am not kidding!!!)

As for my diatribe of hi-tech on bullet comparison. I just used bullets of the two caliber's and tried to match them up as close as I could using BC's-would of used SD's but you appear to have zero use for em.

I went through this arduous excerise in hi-tech because of your post reply "maybe you can post your loading secrets then, and so on and so on. "now pray do tell me what wonderous extra performance you can get from a 7mm rem mag???.

So that my man is what I did, if we had a windage chart things would prove even more in favor of the big 7's. To me windage is much more of a foe than drop.

You also said "at any distance"-being as I do a lot of long range shooting and am darn good at it (modest as well I know). So that is what I did I worked it out for both rounds to 600.

Then you tell me to get a reality check basically,one of us perhaps needs one but I am not so sure it is me. But then again as Dale Carnegie said, "you never win an argument".
This was in regards to how you don't care about what a round does past 350. Obviously you don't care about past 350-I do! Too me to 350 is a chip shot. What matters to me is how a round performs after 350 not to. To me you can put a truck load of rounds into the to 350 class. To me it's after 350 is where I began to look at how a round performs.

As to your inference to "3-legged elk" I'll put my shooting buddies up against most any in the world when it comes to shooting at range. If there are any 3 legged critters running around it isn't because of us. If, and when, we take a shot at long range it tis a calculated affair and generally it's one shot and lights out.

The three legged elk I see running around are not because of long range practiced snipers. It is generally because someone lost their discipline and took a shot they were unable to do so effectively. Caliber being not a big part of this equation so forget the part about the 7 Rem and 300 Wby. But I am here to tell you my man that there is not a bunch of tri-pod elk running around cause of us long rangers.

Well we are way off target as to the original question. I would suppose we have not changed the world one darn bit. Given each other something to chew on though. As Ray would say something to do when we can't be by the fire.

Hope your enjoying your time on top of a mtn in Tibet. Are you climbing?

If you ever get to "Big Sky Country" give me a call and we can go and shoot some chucks at range. You bring your 06 and I'll bring my 7. Then we can cuss and discuss the merits and downfalls of each while we are out there on the hill.

Have a super weekend

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

Just my opinions as I like Bobby Knight don't hesitate to share mine-ork ork ork

JHook... Mark is my trusted friend who won't toot his own horn, so I'll do it for him! I'd never (and I DO mean NEVER) get into a shoot-out with him at distances over 300 yards. When he says 350 yards is a chip-shot, for him it's absolutely the truth... maybe that's one reason I love to hunt the timber so much as it makes up for my sometime piss-poor shooting, LOL! I can also tell you he's not onet to dote over ballistic charts... he's way beyond those days. If you saw Mark's rifle collection (all beat-to-s$it from actual hunting) with their mil-dot scopes and his photo albums crammed with game, you'd probably give him a bit more respect. Funny thing is, I KNOW Mark likes the 06'... heck, he and I often debate about "going retro", ditching all our shooting-wares and doing it all with that grand old brass cylinder just to simplify things and make a point. Still, he's too much of a distance and speed junkie and all-around rifle-looney to do it... besides, his knees are a bit shot so he likes to put himself on the meadows for shots on elk. Guess I'm going-on a bit about my buddy, but I just wanted to let you know that, unlike a lot of "computer jockey's" on these boards (there ARE a lot of them), he "walks the walk"... Kirk Kelso didn't hire him to guide in Sonora this past fall for no reason...

You've "piqued" my curiosity as you post from "Tibet", a country near and dear to my heart, though the closest I've been is Nepal. Is that some sort of obscure "statement" I don't understand, or the truth?

Best Regards,

Brad

Gentlemen,

My answer to this debate is actually quite simple.

1.) Ask yourself which one you shoot better
2.) Use that rifle
3.) Stalk as close as possible
4.) Use the appropriate bullet for the game hunted.
5.) Place the bullet on target
6.) Properly field dress the animal
7.) Crack open a cold one and tell your hunting buddies why your rifle is so much better than the one they use.

Joel Slate
Slate & Associates, LLC
www.slatesafaris.com

7mm Rem Mag Page www.slatesafaris.com/7mm.htm

Who in Hell is Kirk Kelso ? Who cares ? Look I aint badmouthing the 7mm mag ; Its a good round. But when someone says <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<I have .270's, 30-06's and a 7mm Rem Mag, and the 7mm is way beyond the performance of the 30-06. It has more velocity, more energy, flatter trajectory, less windrift, quicker time of flight, deeper penetration, I never hunt with the 30-06, it's just obsolete. >>>>>>>>>>

Thats just silly, and I dont care if you post 7mm-STW numbers on a piece of paper taped to your cheekpad, its still silly.

And I dont give a damn what you can do at a range, which is wind protected, stepped off, with flags waveing. Mark post what you want, with Brad , or Bill, or Tom, or Dave, backing you up. You can be anyone you want on this thing, go for it. But you and your 7mm-wonderkind will cripple more game with your 600 yrd horseshit then I ever will with my 350 yrd chipshots.

After talking to you I now know why there are so many 3-legged Antelope as well. I can make 100 out of a 100 chipshots as well, thats why I take them. I dont doubt that your a better shot them me Mark, but the 7mm-Mag is still NOT any better then the 3006 as a hunting cartridge.

Hopefully I'll be in the Great State of Montana next Oct. "unfortunately after a week I'll have to leave it". I'll be the guy that has so much respect for the deer and 'lopes I'll actually crawl to within 300 yrds of them to shoot. AND , just like a campfire, I'll leave the place in better condition then when I found it............Hey.............Mark, you dont work at a Taxidermist in the 700 series do you ? I forget the town, but last time we ere there the kid we met started boasting about all his long shots on critters with his 7mm-Mag. When he told us he killed a deer at 1,000 yrds we all just looked at each other and laughed.

Ive heard more storys like that from the 7-rem-mag then any other hunting cartridge. OK Mark, you want to be asked, you, or your spokesman Brad, tell us about all your long shots on BigGame. "Chucks" arent big game.

And dont foget to include the cripples..................J

I would be willing to bet that more animals are crippled with the 30-06 each year than with the 7mm rem mag for two reasons.The first is that there are more 30-06's in use and the second is that most of the people I know that hunt with 30-06's usually only fire a few rounds each year while the hunters I know who use 7mm rem mags tend to be more serious about their shooting and do practise more in the offseason.

Dr. Hook (from Tibet):

You've really got your panties in a wad, don't you?

Ever hear of civil dialogue?

No, I thought not.

Never fails.

Folks that don't have the skills,tools or knowledge,are screaming at those that do. They weigh their limited abilities,against an unknown quantity. That is risky business,though it often provides great entertainment.

You Boys shoot what you like. Make mine the 7mmRem and the 140XLC(3300fps,out of a 24" tube). Despite the screaming,the '06 can't bring anything to the Ball,that will run with it.

If I'm needing to toss 220grs of lead,to seal the deal,it sure as shit won't be out of an '06,at 2400fps.

In my estimation the 7mmRem combines many useful traits,in a friendly package. It is of enough capacity,that it will realize very nice velocities. Though of not such extreme capacity,that it mandates the use of exceptionally long barrels. The recoil is very controllable for most and I've yet to own or shoot one,that wasn't capable of very fine accuracy(in fairness,I'm not inferring the '06 isn't accurate). It propels some very nice BC's,of outstanding composition,at goodly speeds. They allow trajectories the '06 can't dream about,nice wind drift values,reduced time of flight,all while retaining energy(speed).

So if shooting an accurate,flat shooting,hard hitting,handy rifle,of modest recoil,does not appeal to you,by all means scoff the Magnificent 7.

To further sweeten the deal,it is extremely capable with the 120gr V-Max(3500fps+ out of a 24" tube) for off season practice and fun. Doubly so,because I favor the 120X for a lot of stuff. Their BC's are very similar,for Gents who weigh such things,in their practice sessions. That is criteria I evaluate.

The '06 is a nice cartridge,though not the Mythical Beast many equate it. She simply hasn't the capacity,to run with the Big Dogs.

Largely the reason,why the '06's sit stagnant in my closets. I love Big 30's,but the 30-06 isn't one..............

Actually Brad baby I wasnt even talking to you. Whats this about pantys ? Is it as relevant in big game hunting as 600yrd chuck shots with 30" barrels ?

Stick to being a cheerleader Brad, your better at it <wink>.......J

10 Point... hiding under another on-line handle? Pretty amusing...

Geez Brad, your probably the only one that didnt know..........J

sorry, to start a debate, but i would have to agree with the '06 users. the difference with the two out to 300yds. is unnoticeable except the heavier bullet. all this bc and sec. dens. talk isn't necessary either since the 200grainers are almost the same as the 175grainers. besides, with the high energy ammo you got a real barn burner.

10 Point (little over-compenstaion there, eh?), I don't put much stock in the opinions of cowards who can't post their real name on-line and who play all these little "handle" games... grow-up little man.

Brad, your an asshole. Try sticking to the conversation, which is about rifles and calibers. You had to stick you pink little ass in this thing and now you have nothing to add except personal comments.

It takes a lot of courage to call someone a coward on an Internet, about as much as to brag about all your "long shots" on big game. Boy, I get a kick out of guys like you. Im going back to talking about guns and hunting............J

So what happened 10point,did you forget to logout with 10point and login with jhook.
I hate like hell to agree with you,but I think you hit the nail on the head with old brad. He loves to come on here and rub the asses of allen and mark and whisper sweet nothings in their ears. As for Kelso,if it wasn't for Boddington and Miller pimping his name out he'd be just another unheard of outfitter.
As for the 7mag, even out to 400 yards the 06 hangs with it respectably and any miss on an animal with the 06 is the fault of the shooter not the cartridge. Everyone likes to compare the 7mm at 600 yards,because that's where trajectory really shines for it. All the talk of glorified cartridges,really holds true in the case of the 7mag,it's nothing but an over hyped .270

Actually the system wouldnt accept JHook for some reason, and since most of the guys I know, "which doesnt include you" already know I changed names, and since I dont much give a damn one way or another what anyone thinks, I just put a name up.

I hate like hell haveing you agree with me too, please dont do it again. I didnt want to get into anything personal here, it was a discussion about cartridges and calibers. Yes, I just went back and checked all the posts "thinking it was my own hardheadedness that got things ugly".

Your right, it was Brad. I hate agreeing with you too, but your right. "Brad kindly please stop kissing Marks ass" ; "He was doing very well on his own". Actually Mark seemed an OK guy, except for his blathering about rock chucks "what in hell does that have to do with the 7mm-Mag and the '06 for big game"?.And can someone please tell me who Kirk Kelso is ?..............JHOOK "because I frigging feel like it!"