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| one of us |
quote: SB RH | |||
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| one of us |
Rockhead -I can't say I know for sure perhaps it is partly because many of the people who bought 30-06's used cheap ammunition as part of their reasoning for choosing the 30-06 and they don't like spending any more on ammunition than necessary hence less practising.Also many of the people that I know that own 30-06's use much older rifles(again to save money) while the people that I hunt with that own 7mm rem mags have newer stainless synthetic rifles that they paid a fair price for.If you have already spent that much on a new rifle and scope a few boxes of practise ammunition doesn't seem like a big price to pay.Actually come to think of it not one of the people who I know who bought a new rifle recently bought a 30-06 as most bought 7mm rem mags with a couple of 300's and a 338 thrown in. | |||
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| <wrangler> |
It's nice to see the kids playing nicely, for a change, eh? You can tell a fool, but you can't tell him much. | ||
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Stubble jumper I guess I don't agree with you, probably because I own a 30-06. I am very comfortable with my shooting and prefer one shot kills which all the deer in my last 5 years of hunting were. The farm field /woodland shots ranging from 50 to 150 yards. My huskavarna groups 1.5 inch shots. I don't believe that it is the caliber that makes the difference rather it is the individual and I think you do a dis-service claiming 30-06 users don't practice. My father's deceased moose hunting partner hunted with a 7mm mag. He would only shoot 3 bullets each year before the season. If they were within 3" of the target he would stop (no need to waste expensive bullets he claimed) the only time he would shoot more bullets was if his scope had been knocked and the gun was off. I admit he did not miss a moose, even if it took several shots to drop the animal. I have nothing against the 7mm, but when I add to my rifle collection, it will be something bigger. A 9.3X62 or 300 WM. Or something bigger if by some outside chance I get to go to Africa. Frankly it doesn't matter what you shoot as long as you are comfortable with the piece of equipment, shoot it well and know its limitations. The 7mm vs 30-06 s 270 debate will go on for years. All them work well, it is the operator that needs to be watched. RH | |||
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Out of all the medium magnum cartridges,I believe the 7mag see's the least amount of time at the range. The reason for this is the typical owner of a 7mag. It never fails when you run into someone that brags about his seven mag,you'll find out several things. First off they bought it,because they made a couple piss poor shots on elk with a .270 or 06. Second,they claim they can't handle the recoil of a 300 or 338 and the 7mag is bad enough for them off the bench,which is usually real evident from the partially healed half moon on their forehead. The 7mag is the end all cartridge for every yuppy asshole in the western states. It has a trajectory like a lazer beam and kills everything its pointed at instantly. | |||
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| one of us |
I haven't weighed in for a bit, twas out shooting pd's-better than sparring on the puter eh. Anyway a couple of thoughts,hopefully my last ones. First off Razor-my apology for my part in this getting so far from your question. To answer your question here are my thoughts: If I hunted in a manner and in country that allowed my shooting to be within 300 yards I'd go for a lightweight 06 with a 2-8 Leo on it and 200 Noz. Now being as that does not fit the way I hunt and the country I hunt, I would opt for my 7 and the 175's. Just my opinon and it certainly need not become anyone else's, at least not on my account. Now a queston for Mr RMK of Wyo. First off out of curiousity what part of Wyo are you from? Question number next, what game did you hunt with Kelso and in what country? I'd love to hear about your experience with him and his outfit? I'm for guessing that you haven't been on the hill with him and his outfit. Perhaps you've not made many hunts with other outfitters as well. For it is my opinion if you ahd and you ahd then you would not say that with out DM and the Col he would be just another outfitter! That is just pure horse hockey! And then again perhaps I am wrong, perhaps-but not likely. I say this cause I have hunted with KK, I have worked for KK in Mexico. I was very fortunate to guide for him for desert Muley, Coues and Desert sheep. I have seen how his hunts go, I have heard the glowing reports from his clients. I have seen how great his cooks are, how fantastic his ranches are to hunt, how wonderful his guides are, how good his equipment is. How he takes care off his clients and staff down to the last detail! I've also seen how many people leave him a deposit check for next years hunts as they get on the plane in Hermosille. If he was just another outfitter these people would not be lining up to come back-at least not in my opinion. I've also seen the people that come, some are movie star types, or gun writers. However the greater part of them are people like you and me, just regular Joe's that want to experience Sonora, want to hunt the lil Coues. That want to smell a mesquite fire and take in a Sonoran sunset while enjoying a Tecate. They want to hunt without dealing with landowners, crowds and in a place that is rich in game. And be able to marvel at the Mexi's abilty to spot game-they are in another world at doing this!! It would be my best wishes that every hunter/huntress could be so fortunate as to be able to hunt with KK in the land down south of the border. Trust me, everyones lives would be enriched by doing so! (again just my opinion) Personally I don't think DM or the Col. have diddly to do with KK's success. (nothing personal here DM or Col) It has to do with all the things KK does and his crew does for the customers his clients! Just my thoughts-this thread is gonna get as big as the MK one if we don't watch it. Now as for my goings on about chucks, sorry I was not to clear on this. I can certainly see where one say what the heck does this have to do with the price of rice in China!! So I will try to ever so quickly clear up my thoughts on chucks. #1-I was just trying to invite you to come and shoot chucks with me. I think we'd learn a lot about each other, and we could compare field notes on the good old 06 and the big 7. #2- I was trying to make the point (albeit it done poorly) that the shooting of chucks at range will teach us amazing things. I became a disciple of long range shooting in the mid 80's. Hey I am tired of this, I am sure you are as well. I've said way more than was needed and I apologive for that. Too bad we're all not out on the hill right now instead of on a puter eh!? Two last things-sorry had to do this. #1-what is the deal with 30" tubes? Who in the name of Sam Hill uses them and like the chuck thing where did that come from? #2-one of my last long range shots(one muley doe,634 yards,one 6/06, one witness,I told Paul I was gonna take her in the beaner, made a nest, dropped the hammer, muley doe dropped, one shot up the nose and out the back of her head. #3-in Sonora KK at the gun. Wiley E Yote at 642 yards,one 300 Wby, KK made a nest,only thing in view was the yotes head, KK dropped the hammer , yote dropped like a fart.. Walked up to it-flight 168 right between the running lights. OK OK I know enough of this-that is it I am done honestly truthfully finito finsihed. Razor take what you like and shoot well! "GET TO THE HILL" Dog
[This message has been edited by Mark R Dobrenski (edited 04-09-2002).] | |||
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Mark I live in Northeast, Wyoming. No I haven't hunted with KK,I know several of his past clients which I trust their judgement since I've known both of them for years and both of these people have hunted around the world with plenty of outfitters. After hearing what they had to say about KK, I decided I could do without using him. Their take on it,had some similarities to what you've said, his food was good and he wines and dines his clients which is a turn on for some,others are more interested in hunting. The coues deer that they took off of private ranches with KK weren't any better then deer they had taken on other private ranches with other outfitters. Basically the quality of animals weren't any better then what other private ranch hunts offered and success wasn't any better either,but the price was higher with kk. My experience with hunting coues deer has been limited to two deer which I've taken on self guided hunts in arizona. Nothing record book class,but not dinks either. I've hunted alaska several times and used an outfitter. As for KK and his shooting abilities,when he repeats the same coyote scenario 5 or 6 times in a row,then it goes from being a lucky shot to actual skill. As for repeat clients and outfitters,it goes both ways. I've been around the taxidermy business for years and you get to see exactly what quality each outfitter turns out in the form of dead animals,not just rumor.I've seen clients rebook with an outfitter for several reasons. Some because the outfitter produced good animals and ran a good hunting operation. Others rebooked because they thought they had done good and had killed a trophy class animal,later to find out when they drop off their head,that another outfitter is producing better animals in the same area they just hunted in and at a price comparable to or less then what they paid to kill a dink with their outfitter. I've seen plenty of outfitters that book solid every year and the animals they produce are no where near the quality of another outfitter that is cheaper,kills better animals and has a hell of lot better attitude and personality. Another thing I've seen attract repeat clients with some outfitters,is the outfitter parties with them. The client hasn't been that shitfaced since his college years,not to mention he's cowboying it up in the wild west. There are enough people out there that will only hunt the western states once or maybe twice in a life time, that an outfitter doesn't even have to worry about repeat customers if his price is cheap enough,there's a new sucker every fall. The same goes for taxidermy clients, the majority of customers see nothing but the antlers or horns.That's why there's so many rustic shoulder mounts out there,the average guy can't tell the differance between shit work and artwork all he see's is head gear or claws. It's so bad I've seen people look at old taxidermy work,that was in the shop to be replaced so it would actually look like a deer or elk and all they can do is marvel at the "detail and workmanship"of some piece of trash. The same goes for outfitting. | |||
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| new member |
Is there big difference in recoil betveen 30-06 and 7 mm remmag. I have shot with 30-06 many times, but never 7mm remmag! ------------------ | |||
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| <Savage 99> |
The 7mm Mag kicks harder but it's not a lot worse. It's the extra powder it burns that makes the difference. The formula for recoil counts powder weight at a 1.5 to 1 ratio. You must compare similar weight bullets. Les Bowman favored the 7mm Mag for his clients however for it's low recoil compared to what they could have shot. He claimed, with obvious reason, that the 7mm Rem mag hunter were more effective than the .300 mag hunters. | ||
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Savage 99 -now your bringing up something worth a talking about. Les Bowman-now that man got to the hill and did it!!! Wish he were still around-we could all benefit from that man. "GET TO THE HILL" Dog | |||
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Have a super day all! "GET TO THE HILL" Dog [This message has been edited by Mark R Dobrenski (edited 04-09-2002).] | |||
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| One of Us |
maybe i make it too simple. - smaller bores extend your range. - bigger bores kill quicker (more frontal area=bigger wound channels) so.. shoot the biggest bore that you can comfortably shoot, for the range you intend to shoot. if i only ever planned on shooting 300, i'd shoot a 30 cal. if i only ever planned on shooting 200, i'd use a 338 cal. if i only ever planned on shooting 100 yards, i'd shoot a 45 cal. i don't ever plan on shooting much more than 300 , so i don't have a lot of call for anything smaller than my 30-06. energy is a poor indicator indicator of penetration, which coupled with frontal area, define terminal performance in my opinion. dead is dead, for sure.. but i hunt some cedar swamps in the north woods of michigan, where 10 steps of a wounded whitetail can make the difference between recovery and loss. for this, i like bigger bores, though many will get the job done. some say its over-kill, but i do enjoy watching an animal drop in its tracks. and speed is less than necessary for me. | |||
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one of us |
I don't own and have never fired a 7mm Mag. I own 9 rifles in 30-06 chambering. Obviously, I like the 30-06. | |||
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| one of us |
I always get a charge out of these Ford vs Chevy debates, especially when long range ballistics are cited. All I can tell you is that after 39yrs of shooting the hell out these calibers and taking dozens of big game with them I can say without hesitation that the only difference is that the 7mm Mag makes a louder bang! It does not kill faster or shoot game at longer distance than the 06. So all that being said, I would take the 06 with 24" barrel every time. If I need something bigger I go to the 338WM and yes, I do have the 300 mags and there I would give a slight advantage to them over the 06 but only because they can shoot the heavier (200 grs+)bullets more effectively.The 7mm mag is not the equal of the 300s and barely the equal of the 06. Try shooting a 200gr bullet in a 7 mm and then measure the ballistics. I know some of you live in the wide open spaces but I spend a good portion of my time in Arizona and it's tough to find any place more open than that.But the 06 does well there too. | |||
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| one of us |
There isn't really a whit's worth of difference between the two in practical application. I've shot several truckloads of deer with the 7mm rem mag, and at least a truckload of deer with the 30-06, the performance was identical as far as I could tell. All were with handloads, and no, the belt on the 7mm mag isn't a hinderance in any way. IF I had to pick between the two for elk or bigger game, I'd give a slight edge to the 30-06 because of the bit bigger bullets. However, I see no reason to handicap the 30-06 with 200 or 220 grain bullets. If I need a bullet that heavy then I'll use my 338. If I need heavier bullets than that I'll use my 375 H&H. The trajectory difference between a 150 gr 30-06 bullet at 3000 fps and a 140 gr 7mm bullet at 3200 fps is neglible, it's too small to be of any real importance. Around here I will agree that you'll see more guys with 30-06's that shoot their rifles once a year at a milk jug 20 yds away and call it "sighted in", dittto for the 270 and 243. There's plenty of guys I know that bought their remington 7400 at K-mart 15 years ago who haven't gone through their second box of cartridges yet. However, their poor performance on game isn't a function of the round, just their laziness. | |||
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| One of Us |
I've taken deer and elk with both calibers in the same model rifle and when asked by a new hunter what rifle to buy - I always suggest the 30-06 in a rifle that feels right for them. The cost of ammunition, availability, lack of Whiz-bang magnum reputation etc., it seems to be a nice rifle to start with and you never have to change if you don't want to. The wide range of bullet weights and the fact that somebody in camp will have a box if you lost yours is nice insurance too. When asked by an experienced hunter I suggest the 7mm is what I use most often because I think it is a little better rifle at 3-400 yards. The additional recoil is minimal and it does simplify range estimation because it is a little bit flatter shooting. I bought mine when I was 18 because it was what the best hunter I knew used for deer elk and everything else. After 30 years of use it isn't the sexiest thing on the block but does the job very well. Arguing the difference between the 270, 284, 30-06, 7mm's and 300's is interesting - but the bottom line is still the same. Whatever gun of that middle group allows you to put the bullet in the right spot is what you should use - stopping them instantly is important to some just killing them is enough for most. You can make that happen with bullet placement a lot more reliably than with different calibers. | |||
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one of us |
I've taken around 50+ animals with the 7RM and around 50+ with an 06 so, I feel I have a bit of experience with both carts. The 7RM in my experience is much more effective on game from my experiences. After you kill enough animals with a cart you start to see a trend. The trend I see with each of the above is with vital shot placements the animals I've taken with 30-06 have always ran further distances after impact. Of course while using similarly constructed bullets. My conclusion is the extra 200 fps from the 7RM results in much more devastating wound channels and quicker death. That's the honest truth, when I shoot game with my 06 they almost always run at least 50 yards, sometimes much further, somtimes shorter or DRT. While using the 7RM, honestly the longest tracking job I had was a 240lb monster whitetail that made it all of around 20-25 yards while 90% of the others from a 500lb russian, elk, mulie, and plenty of hogs and deer were DRT or within mere feet of impact. Like I said, these are honest accounts from my personal experiences with each and year in year out they tend to be the same. I own both and love them both. I kill several animals each year with 06s and 7RMs. Never feel undergunned with either but, the 06 is no 7RM in my eyes. I personally feel they are two of the best cartridges ever evented and both are here for the duration. Have a good one, Reloader | |||
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| one of us |
What types of animals? | |||
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One of Us |
"So It Goes"... 5 years and 3 days later...  | |||
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One of Us |
 WHATS NEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "who's mommy makes the best spaghetti" "Coors Light VS. Bud Light" P.S. The dancing banana cracks me up.  | |||
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| one of us |
Right now I have a 270, a 30-06, a 7MM Rem mag, a 7x57, a 308 and ahve taken game with all of them. Truthfully I can't see any difference in how fast game goes down when hit well with good bullets from any of the above. I like the 7 mag though. Leftists are intellectually vacant, but there is no greater pleasure than tormenting the irrational. | |||
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| one of us |
Right now, I prefer the 7 mag, but only because I have one and don't have an -06. Wish I did, but just don't at present. If I had both, I'd like 'em both. An old pilot, not a bold pilot, aka "the pig murdering fool" | |||
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.30-06 | |||
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| One of Us |
I absolutely love these debates, the 06 is obsolete yadda yadda yadda. Both carts are very effective and some people dont realize that you can drive a 130gr TSX to 3,300fps in an 06. You can drive a 120gr TSX to the same velocity in a 7mm rem mag, so wheres the huge advantage? As far as 7 mag users practicing more thats gotta be the biggest bunch of horse shit out there. It usually goes like this, " well i took an informal concensus( like his two or three buddies) and yep thats it, 7 mag users practice more!"  | |||
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Love these crazy debates. We all obviously have too much time on our hands. "The Emperor wears no clothes" ie there isnt a pinch of coon crap difference . Knock yourselves out! | |||
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| one of us |
I think you could shoot game your whole life with either one and never know which one you were using. That is because both are great, not because one is any better. The 7mm shoots a bit flatter which makes no difference in 90% of all hunting, the '06 has the capability to shoot 200-220 grain bullets. Recoil is virtually identical, which is light. The 7Mag is an overgrown .270 which is a very good thing, a .270 with more bullet weight. I like to shoot 175's in the 7mm, 180's in the .30-06 for pretty much everything, I'm a 1 to 2 load per rifle kind of guy. A shot not taken is always a miss | |||
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| one of us |
I honestly don't think there is that much difference between them. I have had both, and they both work very well out to any reasonalbe range. One thing I think you have to do is stick with bullets of like weight and construction when comparing them. I'll stick just to factory loads for comparisons sake and only federal premium because that is my perferred brand. Here is the breakdown for federal loads 30/06 150gr accubond 2940fps 0@200 -20"@400 7mm mag 150gr NBT 3025fps 0@200 -18.4@400 difference of 1.6" at 400yrds and 239lbs of energy in the 7mm favor for bigger game 30/06 180gr partition @2880fps 0@200 -21"@400 7mm mag 180gr TBBC @2900fps 0@200 -21.9@400 difference of 203lbs of energy and .9" in the 06 favor. Granted the 06 load is one of federals HE loads but both still factory ammo with comparable application bullets. | |||
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| One of Us |
While the recoil on a 7 is a little worse, I could live with it. But when I add in the added muzzle blast, it was a cartridge that did not offer me enough in performance to compensate. I found it uncomfortable for me. Sharpshooters aside, mostly I have little respect for 600 yard shots at anything. | |||
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Mark, You be de man. and it is entertaining.  I would probably kill for that lil .270 on a G33-40!Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Shit Ray, if you had it you'd just sell it..  | |||
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not to hyjack the thread, but does anyone know why the names of some of the posters look like this: <JHook> , instead of being bold orange? Just curious. thanks | |||
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| One of Us |
This thread is over five years old so it's impossible to hijack something that crashed and burned a looong time ago (grin)... those posters marked thus are no longer members. | |||
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| one of us |
Ahha, thanks, Brad. That makes sense! Since the year doesn't show on the post, and at my age I can read the same thing a year later and enjoy it just as much as the first time, I didn't realize it was old material! | |||
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| One of Us |
LOL, that's great! | |||
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