http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31...ws-crime_and_courts/
Community service a safety course ? Don't they have that as mandatory there? This is one of the problems of multiple use land .But there's no excuse for not identifying your target ! It'll be hard for him to live with.

Last year marked the 20th anniversary of the accidental shooting of a woman by a hunter. She was living in a pretty rural little town having recently moved here with her husband and young family. During the November deer season she was out one afternoon hanging laundry wearing, of all things, white mittens. A local hunter saw what he thought was a flag and fired. Killed her dead right there. If I recall he was charged and convicted of manslaughter. Lost his license for life.

It has never crossed my mind while hunting to shoot at something I cannot positively identify. Truly a sad case.

quote:

Originally posted by jsl3170:
It has never crossed my mind while hunting to shoot at something I cannot positively identify.

This is also why I don't hunt with someone who doesn't own a good set of binoculars.

These are horrible events, and defintely careless. I thought Washington had a mandatory hunter safety program as well. I think it is the sign of the times where most people associate hunting with shooting something.

JOhn

8 years ago I was hunting with a party in N.E. Oregon. 1 guy was trigger happy, the kind of person you don't want to get stuck hunting with. Anyways in October of that year he and his nephew were elk hunting and he shot his Nephew and killed him with a 300 Weatherby. Shot him in the chest. How could a person mistake a human especially your own Nephew for an Elk. He don't hunt no more. Which is a good thing.If I remember right I think his excuse was it was foggy.

I wonder about the responsibility and liability associated with this event. I don't know any 14-year-old that I would trust with a high powered rifle, on their own, hunting bear. Was he in a hunting party? Was he "supervised" by a parent?

Liability-wise; who pays for the death of the woman, the young man's father? I'm assuming someone will be sued if there is any money to be had; and probably rightfully so.

These events hurt the chances of our sons and grand-sons being able to hunt; or even being able to possess firearms. It's our responsibility to see that our 14-year-old knows how to handle a weapon, hunt safely; and is mature enough to do either before we turn him loose in the field.

I always cringe when I read a story about some father bragging about his five-year old that killed his first deer. What's to brag about?

I'm not proposing that 14 isn't old enough to hunt, but some parental supervision needs to be in place whether your 14-year-old has been hunting "for years", or if it is his first time in the field.

Some adult set up the conditions leading to this tragedy, way before the child pulled the trigger.

What a tragedy and I don't think the kid was punished enough, but I'm not sure what would be fair either.

As far as the age of the hunter goes, I think it depends, I'll put my 15 yr old up against anyone for responsible gun handling and hunting/shooting/killing decisions and he was just as good when he was 13. His hunting/shooting skills will get better as he gets older, but he is as safe as anyone. He carries and uses binoculars and is a safer gun handler than 95% of the adults I've been around. Of course, 75% of the adults I've been around need to re-take their hunter safety course if they ever had one.

We had a grown man in his 40s, hunting with his sons, shoot his father, on his father's ranch when the father was walking up to or around the area of their blind. They were hunting further West of here but the dead man was from the local area. After the shot, he sent his sons to get granpa while he checked on the dead "deer". Needless to say, the grandkids didn't find gramps.

What the hell is worth shooting that you can't take the time to be absolutely certain of your target? Sound shots? Anyone who says they took a "sound shot" needs to be punched in the mouth as a reminder of how stupid they are.

Bottom line: age may help, but you can't cure stupidity.

I recall this event....if my memory serves, the kid's grandfather was "supervising" from the cab of his pick-up a mile away. IMHO, NEVER should anyone under the age of 18 be in the woods with a gun unsupervised. Yes, there are some very mature young teens out there that are better hunters than grown men......but youngsters do not understand the ramifications of their actions. I doubt that the 8 year old that killed his father and friend earlier this year in AZ with a 12g realized that dead is forever before he pulled the trigger.

Amazing how different each and every one of us are.....I have NEVER even thought about pulling the trigger unless I was 1000% sure of my target.....and it hasn't been a human yet. Very sad for all involved.......but I doubt the kid's life will be affected terribly.

I wonder how many of us have been scoped by another hunter and never realized it.

While I believe the kid should face stiffer punishement, I believe the real culprit here, the kids parents should be paying a price also.

The one thing that we all need to keep in mind, is that in this case it was a kid doing the shooting.

If a little research is done into hunting accidents over the last 20 years, it is amazing how many hunting related accidents/fatalities are the result of poor judgement by an experienced hunter.

Some times the human pysche will convince a normally safe and rational person that the noise they are hearing or the flash of white they think they saw could only be being made by a deer or a bear.

I suspect there is not much difference between a 14-year old and a 40-year old shooter that doesn't confirm his target. It was the level of care, supervision and training from a mentor / parent that makes the difference when I person is introduced to shooting / hunting. That 14-year old might not have made the mistake now, but he would probably have been the same type hunter his whole career; an accident waiting to happen.

I'm sure Gato has stressed over and over the importance of gun safety, and responsibility to his son. My dad did the same with me; but when I was 14, I was fourteen 24/7; mature some times and other times, not so much.

I've always thought you could mold a kid until he's about 20+, then your influence drops off. I don't think as fathers we can relax and consider the job done until way past where this 14-year old found himself on that day.

And I think Norton is probably right. I don't think that 14-year old is going to be traumatized for long. He's probably killed thousands of people in video games, what's one in real life. I hope he grows up with that guilt and does something fine with his life. If he just blows it off and moves on, then two lives were lost.

I've been fooled a number of times, like CHC mentions. I wanted my first bull elk so bad back in the 70s. I saw a herd of elk following each other up a mountain game trail about 600 yards away in Colorado. I looked at them twice through binoculars and I ran like Hell to cut the distance down to shooting range. When I could see I had done all I could, without having a heart-attack, I set-up for the shot. A funny thing happened as I scoped the elk looking for the bull.......one of them flew off. I could not believe my eyes. They were turkey, not elk, and the distance was not near what I thought. I had been so pumped that I couldn't see what was in front of me. I wasn't 14, I was twice that old.

The excitement of the hunt is what we all enjoy about hunting but it can work against us if we let it. It worked against the boy that killed the woman; and for that, the woman and her family and loved ones have paid, and will pay the price.

I read recently that a sudden, unexpected death affects 60 people profoundly; the ripple-effect; friends, loved-ones, family, etc. There is a lot of pain being felt over this incident. Sad story indeed.

Washington does have a mandatory hunter safety for all hunters under 18. There is date in which if you have not have had hunter safety course must take one if you were not born before a certain date. I cannot remmember the date. But, I believe the date was sometime in the 70's. All those under 18 must be accompanied by someone over 18 when hunting. But, that does not excuse stupity. As was in this case. This young boy will have nightmares for years. There will be many people effected by this event. The young man will never be able to hunt again. Washington state law mandates he can never have hunting license again.

I've damn sure hunted with grown men who made me real nervous, and I was damn sure safe enough to turn loose when I was 14. Good sense isn't 100% age related, and laws set up solely on age don't always make sense, like being able to die for God and Country at 18 and not being able to have a beer till 21.

The La state record buck was killed about 30 miles from my home when I was a teenager. He was a "freak" 34 point or something like that. He basically had two big horn balls with points shooting off in all directions. A large buck with a massive rack. The grown man who killed him was on a NWR and shot him for a doe.

I can also well remember a duck hunt I was on where a 30 something year old business man was a guest of one of my father's friends. This guy didn't know the first thing about guns, hunting, or gun safety. The third time he swept my head with his loaded and unsafetied 12 gauge I told him if he did it again I'd return fire.

On the other hand, all of my boyhood buddies and I carried guns and hunted A LOT. Among the thousands of rounds we fired, not one accident. The only one of us who ever had a close call was 14 and a 50 year old man who shot at a low flying dove blew a kid sitting on a bucket 60 yds away on his butt.

None of this is to defend this kid, of his parents. Clearly, he didn't identify his target, and if his father wasn't sure his son was mature enough to be responsible, he shouldn't have turned him loose. This is another tragedy, and unfortunately ammunition for those who would take away our rights to bear arms, and hunt.

When I was 17 years old, three of us took our horses up above Angel's Camp here in California for a remote horseback muley hunt.

Late one evening one of my friend's shot his own horse.

A student in college told us a story about one of his friends practising quick draws & shooting his handgun while riding his horse,he shot his horse in the back of the head killing it instantly.

quote:

Originally posted by Kensco:
I wonder about the responsibility and liability associated with this event. I don't know any 14-year-old that I would trust with a high powered rifle, on their own, hunting bear. Was he in a hunting party? Was he "supervised" by a parent?

quote:

Originally posted by Norton:
I recall this event....if my memory serves, the kid's grandfather was "supervising" from the cab of his pick-up a mile away. IMHO, NEVER should anyone under the age of 18 be in the woods with a gun unsupervised. Yes, there are some very mature young teens out there that are better hunters than grown men......but youngsters do not understand the ramifications of their actions. I doubt that the 8 year old that killed his father and friend earlier this year in AZ with a 12g realized that dead is forever before he pulled the trigger.

At 14, I was piloting sailplanes, at 12 I was driving a cattle truck hooked to a 32'trailer on the farm roads, at 7 I was on a bush-hog, at 6 killed my first deer, was squirrel hunting at 5.

It wasn't bragging rights it was life.

The responsible life as it used to be taught.

A life that mandated responsibility and training.


The attitude you and others hold about the irresponsibility of youth is precisely why youth are more irresponsible.

They are not held accountable,--Nor or the mentors, supposedly teaching and monitoring these youth.

Truth of the matter, like most learned responsibilities and skills, some can and some can't and the responsibility lies largely at first with the mentors.

The mentors ability to teach and above all, decide, who is ready and who is not ready for such responsibility.

Then, it lies with the individual---no matter the age.

Sad story, sounds inexcusable from the minimal data.

The idea that you are somehow magically responsible at a certain age is laughable. The training you recieve before you go into the field is the key. I was hunting deer unsupervised when I was 9. When I turned 12 and could legally get a deer tag, the local gamewarden came by the house and gave me a hunter safety certificate saying my dad had already taught me better than any course could. Who ever taught? this kid gun safety should be facing manslaughter.

It is indeed tragic but was entirely preventable.

I agree wholeheartedly with what Gatogordo and Duggaboye said.

Our oldest is now 17 and has been around guns since he was a baby. He knew what they were for; he knew what they did; and he inderstood that when the trigger was pulled, something was going to die.

He took his first deer at 6 and his first hog at 8. I'd trust his decision-making over many adults I know.

Our 5-year-olds are being brought up the same way.

Upbringing, education and common sense play a large part, but in some cases, no matter what a parent does will be enough. Some kids have it in terms of comprehending the consequences of their actions. Others do not.

quote:

A student in college told us a story about one of his friends practising quick draws & shooting his handgun while riding his horse,he shot his horse in the back of the head killing it instantly.

George A. Custer did the same thing to his wifes horse on a Buffalo hunt in Kansas or somewhere.

Maturity and responsibility should go hand in hand, many times in hunting situations they don't.

Here in Texas, if I am not mistaken, during the last 5 or maybe 10 years, many of the hunting related fatalities that have taken place, involved men in their 50's.

People that had been hunting for years with out any problems, then whether because of the excitement of what was going on, or whatever, there was a tragic accident.

I would bet, if everyone was completely truthful on here, probably everyone of us have been in a situation, where we just happened to catch ourselves right before the tradgedy happened and was able to avert it.

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:

quote:

Originally posted by Norton:
I recall this event....if my memory serves, the kid's grandfather was "supervising" from the cab of his pick-up a mile away. IMHO, NEVER should anyone under the age of 18 be in the woods with a gun unsupervised. Yes, there are some very mature young teens out there that are better hunters than grown men......but youngsters do not understand the ramifications of their actions. I doubt that the 8 year old that killed his father and friend earlier this year in AZ with a 12g realized that dead is forever before he pulled the trigger.

The attitude you and others hold about the irresponsibility of youth is precisely why youth are more irresponsible

.

Blow it out your ass......it's not irresponsibility, it's INABILITY to make the correct decision at a young age and understand the ramifications of your actions. It's got nothing to do with MY attitude.....it's the world we live in, where a lot of kids live with their parents until they're 30.

I don't give a crap if you piloted a space ship to the moon when you were 10.....it has absolutely nothing to do with this case.

quote:

Originally posted by Kensco:

Liability-wise; who pays for the death of the woman, the young man's father? I'm assuming someone will be sued if there is any money to be had; and probably rightfully so.

...

That attitude is one of the biggest problems in this country. Everyone wants to sue someone for something. The kid broke the law, he was tried, convicted, and sentenced. That is the end. Why do you idiots always feel you have to ruin a family financially because some member of the family broke the law? Is that fair to his siblings? The victim's family won't be made whole by any financial gain, so why punish the kids family with a law suit? You're an idiot for saying "rightly so"

quote:

Originally posted by Norton:
I recall this event....if my memory serves,.....but youngsters do not understand the ramifications of their actions. I doubt that the 8 year old that killed his father and friend earlier this year in AZ with a 12g realized that dead is forever before he pulled the trigger.

...

The kid in Az did know the difference. And it was a .22, not a 12 ga.

Don't excuse the kid for not knowing that dead is forever. Too many adults excuse kids for mistakes and do not instill in them a sense of responsibility for their actions.

quote:

Originally posted by The Shottist:

quote:

Originally posted by Norton:
I recall this event....if my memory serves,.....but youngsters do not understand the ramifications of their actions. I doubt that the 8 year old that killed his father and friend earlier this year in AZ with a 12g realized that dead is forever before he pulled the trigger.

...

The kid in Az did know the difference. And it was a .22, not a 12 ga.

Don't excuse the kid for not knowing that dead is forever. Too many adults excuse kids for mistakes and do not instill in them a sense of responsibility for their actions.

Incredible.....the 8 year old knew what he was doing you say? Are you going to send him away for life for the double murder? Please, reassure us all that you're position in life precludes you from making any important decisions.

Well, I see we have another topic going to hell at break-neck speed.

Whether it is true or not, the little I have seen on the shooting in Arizona, the 8 year old knew what he was doing.

He did not understand the consequences of his actions, but I believe he knew just exactly what was going to happen when he pulled the trigger.

While I am not in favor of frivolous lawsuits, the 14 year olds family has a responsibility in this incident, and unfortunately, if the courts do not hold them to that responsibility, the family and the 14 year old will continue on with life as if nothing happened.

I knew a guy that was a really good friend, but I also remember him causing an accident that took the life of an older woman that was good friends with my mother, and was also a beloved Mother and Grand Mother, and as much as I liked him as a friend, causing that person's death never affected him in any way after the initial shock was over.

Life is going to go on for this young man, something needs to be done to make sure he never forgets what he did.

JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by The Shottist:

quote:

Originally posted by Kensco:

Liability-wise; who pays for the death of the woman, the young man's father? I'm assuming someone will be sued if there is any money to be had; and probably rightfully so.

...

That attitude is one of the biggest problems in this country. Everyone wants to sue someone for something. The kid broke the law, he was tried, convicted, and sentenced. That is the end. Why do you idiots always feel you have to ruin a family financially because some member of the family broke the law? Is that fair to his siblings? The victim's family won't be made whole by any financial gain, so why punish the kids family with a law suit? You're an idiot for saying "rightly so"

I'd sure like to see if you had that attitude if it was your wife that was killed, leaving you with 2 kids to raise (for example) and hospital (let's assume she didn't die immediately) and funeral expenses, not to mention the loss of your life's partner........and you don't think this would deserve compensation? Sure..........

quote:

Originally posted by Norton:
it's not irresponsibility, it's INABILITY to make the correct decision at a young age and understand the ramifications of your actions. It's got nothing to do with MY attitude.....it's the world we live in, where a lot of kids live with their parents until they're 30.

I don't give a crap if you piloted a space ship to the moon when you were 10.....it has absolutely nothing to do with this case.

The -inability you speak of should be ascertained by the mentor before that individual is on his or her own.

You actually help make my point--the world we live in that allows 30 yr olds to skate responsibility is directly the result of failure to mentor and that is a result of attitude.

Unless the individual has a serious physical or mental deficiency that precludes them from independence, it IS largely the attitude of the mentor that allows such behavior.

As to the cases involving youth and firearms accidents, someone made the decision they were "capable"; or the youth had access to firearms without supervision, either way, the mentor bears responsibility to some degree.

AND the bearing of that responsibility by the "mentor" reflects directly---Attitude of that "mentor".. as to assessing the pupil and their ability or inability.

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:

quote:

Originally posted by Norton:
it's not irresponsibility, it's INABILITY to make the correct decision at a young age and understand the ramifications of your actions. It's got nothing to do with MY attitude.....it's the world we live in, where a lot of kids live with their parents until they're 30.

I don't give a crap if you piloted a space ship to the moon when you were 10.....it has absolutely nothing to do with this case.

The -inability you speak of should be ascertained by the mentor before that individual is on his or her own.

You actually help make my point--the world we live in that allows 30 yr olds to skate responsibility is directly the result of failure to mentor and that is a result of attitude.

Unless the individual has a serious physical or mental deficiency that precludes them from independence, it IS largely the attitude of the mentor that allows such behavior.

As to the cases involving youth and firearms accidents, someone made the decision they were "capable"; or the youth had access to firearms without supervision, either way, the mentor bears responsibility to some degree.

AND the bearing of that responsibility by the "mentor" reflects directly---Attitude of that "mentor".. as to assessing the pupil and their ability or inability.

You won't get an argument from me about mentorship. I'm still close to my mentors from surgical residency. The "attitude" you mentioned happened to be my observation on today's kids, not my personal resolve.....and if you think I'm the passive type about letting people know how I think kids should be raised....think again. I know kids thrive on discipline.....they may resist initially, but it makes them feel secure that those above them care for them. Ask my son.

Anyway, someone made a bad judgment in cutting this kid loose to hunt bear(correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't his 12 year old brother by his side and their grandpa in the truck?).

I think we were saying roughly the same thing in different words.

This is a good example why it might be a good idea to require obligatory hunting liability insurance when you buy a license.

Here, it is very cheap, about 120 $ or so for three years, that's 40 $/a season. It's required by law and I do support that.

Very little accidents happen when hunting, we have no public land, though. In case you become involved in accident (nobody is perfect, neither when driving a motor vehicle), it is good to have it for both sides.

Here in the states, the cost of that type insurance, if you could find it would be so prohibitive, a person could not afford to hunt after paying the premiums.

Haven't you seen the New American motto??

America, The Land Of The Law Suit!

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Here in the states, the cost of that type insurance, if you could find it would be so prohibitive, a person could not afford to hunt after paying the premiums.

Haven't you seen the New American motto??

America, The Land Of The Law Suit!

Get this, here in this great state of NH one does not have to have liability insurance to drive a car. Imagine that.....you are allowed to drive a 5000 lb weapon and if you don't have a pot to pee in and run someone over they are SOOL! When I moved here from NJ a few years ago I thought my FIL was joking when he told me. Guess who foots the bill for the uninsured drunks plowing their cars into snow banks and trees?

That's not to say I agree with "hunter's insurance".....no chance I'm paying for that!

Thanks for that info. I did not know that.

Here in Texas, in bigger places like Dallas, if you are stopped for any reason and do not have insurance on your vehicle, you are on foot and the vehicle gets towed.

I may have to throw in the towel if it gets to the point where I have to carry hunting liability insurance.

People are trying to water-down life to where there is no thrill left, just made-for-TV-sports and video games.

There was a man killed running the bulls in Spain this year. Immediately Internet traffic was demanding that the running of the bulls be stopped. People not participating in something always demanding that it be stopped.

I may have to throw in the towel if it gets to the point where I have to carry hunting liability insurance.

People are trying to water-down life to where there is no thrill left, just made-for-TV-sports and video games.

There was a man killed running the bulls in Spain this year. Immediately Internet traffic was demanding that the running of the bulls be stopped. People not participating in something always demanding that it be stopped.

quote:

Originally posted by Kensco:
There was a man killed running the bulls in Spain this year. Immediately Internet traffic was demanding that the running of the bulls be stopped. People not participating in something always demanding that it be stopped.

I think that this is different; if you want to run with the bulls and get killed, that is your own business; If you go out and drive your car or shoot your gun, it is good to know that in case accidents happen (and they always happen), your family doesn't get ruined, no matter if yoi shoot someone or get shot yourself.

By the way, the woman mayor of Pamplona just very actively defended this part of their national culture, she is one brave girl who also stands up against ETA.

Like I said, here the hunting liability insurance is little money (because teh risk is very low) and, I feel, very well spent. It also covers your dog, by the way.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Here in the states, the cost of that type insurance, if you could find it would be so prohibitive, a person could not afford to hunt after paying the premiums.

Haven't you seen the New American motto??

America, The Land Of The Law Suit!

I doubt it. I've got a million dollar blanket liability on thousands of acres of ranchland for less than $300 a year.

I'm sure $50/hunter would be a reasonable cost.

I'm not saying I'm for it, but it is not a bad concept, I'd have to know the details. But if it would protect the hunter and the landowner from various aspects of liability, I'd be for it for sure.

I think the difference, and I could be wrong is in the terminology.

You are a Land Owner with a Blanket Liability insurance.

Any one comes on your land doing Anything at Any time and gets hurt, you are covered.

A policy specifically covering hunters and hunting, I believe would be a different deal entirely.

It's still liability insurance and the incidences of hunters needing liability coverage for actions resulting from their hunting are relatively minimal. Costs should be quite low. For instance, I can get excess liability coverage for a million dollars, which covers anything I do or own (however, you have to have adequate auto insurance, 100/300 IIRC) for just a few hundred dollars a year and that covers ALL activities, not just liability for actions on my part.

Grand-Pa should have been within arms length of these kids.It would have not happened if he was with them.As a hunter safty instructor you have to hammer it in that when hunting they have to be 100% sure that what they are going to shoot they want to kill and to use their binos instead of their scope to look at the game. If i rem the last sheet I got from the game dept stated that most of the shooting victims in Texas were shot at their trucks.Good Luck

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
It's still liability insurance and the incidences of hunters needing liability coverage for actions resulting from their hunting are relatively minimal. Costs should be quite low. For instance, I can get excess liability coverage for a million dollars, which covers anything I do or own (however, you have to have adequate auto insurance, 100/300 IIRC) for just a few hundred dollars a year and that covers ALL activities, not just liability for actions on my part.

It's called an umbrella policy. I would suggest you add another million to your policy. A million doesn't go far anymore. I pay around $400 a year for two million.

Either I have mis-read what DUK posted or you guys have.

I think he is talking about an insurance policy that the Hunter takes out, not the land owner.

I can see a land owner even a lease holder taking out such a policy, but an individual hunter?

I maybe wrong or just misinterpreting what DUK is saying, but, if I ain't, I think it would be not only difficult for a hunter to get such insurance but the costs would be prohibitive.

If I am wrong, I am wrong, but somehow I don't think I am.

The insurance coverage I'm familiar with for personal liability are riders attached to your homeowners policy. It's out there and not that expensive. There would be exclusions and fine print to read before buying it for hunting. But, you'll be surprised what all it covers, even libel and slander.

However, I can't imagine it being required of hunters. Landowners and guides is another story. I'd definitely carry it if I was one of those, as it would be not only useful but a deductible cost of doing business. The only real downside would be the probable cost, since it'd be treated as insurance on a business. Passing it on to hunters is an option for some. For others it'd be a competitive disadvantage.

Anyhow, I'm finding that on guided hunts that about 50% of guides require a written release and hold harmless agreement for all hunters in which the hunter releases not only the guide and landowner but also other hunters. I suspect some guides are using it as an intended substitute for insurance that they may not be able to find or afford.

Other guides don't require it and if they've thought about it at all, are relying on state common law to sort out what really happened and who's right or wrong. I've asked and the ones that do require it mostly say it's because their attorney suggested it. While I don't know any examples, I suspect there are limits however to the effectiveness of those releases as a "get out of jail free card".

On the auto insurance, unlike NH, my state does require it but it's widely ignored by the inhabitants of the city I'm in. So, having uninsured motorist coverage is not an option.