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washingtonpost.com

Out With A Bang
The Loss of the Classic Winchester Is Loaded With Symbolism

By Stephen Hunter
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, January 20, 2006; C01

A famous ad that most boy baby boomers will recall from Boys' Life, the old scouting magazine of the '50s, showed a happy lad, carrot-topped and freckly like any number of Peck's Bad Boys, his teeth haphazardly arrayed within his wide, gleeful mouth under eyes wide as pie platters as he exclaimed on Christmas morn, "Gee, Dad . . . A Winchester!"

All gone, all gone, all gone. The gun as family totem, the implied trust between generations, the implicit idea that marksmanship followed by hunting were a way of life to be pursued through the decades, the sense of tradition, respect, self-discipline and bright confidence that Winchester and the American kinship group would march forward to a happy tomorrow -- gone if not with the wind, then with the tide of inner-city and nutcase killings that have led America's once-proud and heavily bourgeois gun culture into the wilderness of marginalization.

And now Winchester is gone too, or at least the most interesting parts of it. The traditional company whose symbol was a fringed rider flying across the plains on a pinto, gripping his trusty Model '73, is finally biting the dust. The entity -- now technically U.S. Repeating Arms, which produces the rifles and shotguns as a licensee of the Olin Corp., which still owns Winchester ammunition -- announced Monday it was closing the plant in New Haven where the rifles and shotguns have been fabricated for a century and a half. Some Winchesters will continue to be built overseas, but three guns -- the classic lever-action rifle of western fame, the bolt-action hunting rifle (called the Model 70) and the Model 1300 pump-action shotgun -- will no longer be manufactured.

That lever-gun -- the quintessential cowboy rifle, the mechanism that "won the West" and maybe helped lose it, too (ask the 7th Cavalry boys who fell to a few dozen Native Americans carrying precursors of the classic Winchester at the Battle of the Little Bighorn) -- is the primary victim of the closing.

In an era of widespread industrial retrenchment, it didn't even make much big national news. And why should it have? Economically, U.S. Repeating Arms is a small company of only some 200 employees. Who really cares? Most people will be indifferent, some glad, and only a few, like me, will mourn.

The Winchester lever-guns mean something to a variety of American imaginations. They have been manufactured in one form or another since 1849. The most abundant variant, the Model 94, has been built more than 6 million times since 1895 with only minor changes. Those 111 years span an era of extraordinary technological development. It's doubtful any other complex machine has a longer record of manufacture. Think about it: Today, in the age of the iPod and robots wandering Mars, essentially the same rattly contraption that felled troopers at the Little Bighorn is still found brand-new and brightly packaged on the shelves of most Western, Southern and Midwestern hardware stores.

If you take one down and examine it -- kids, don't do this at home, unless Dad has cleared the rifle first and made sure no moldy .30-30s from last year's hunt remain in the chamber -- you note certain things instantaneously.

How light it is, how quick to the shoulder, how pointable! It begs to come to the eye. It swiftly finds what's called the natural point of aim, the perfect equipoise between its own grace and its shooter's talent. There, it wants to be fired. It's knobless and trim yet hardly streamlined. It hails proudly from the pre-streamlined world. No ergonomic study went into its design, only the sound trial and error of Yankee genius that finally found the ideal form.

It's weirdly squarish, yet like other classic guns, it boasts an orchestration of lines of unusual harmony, which somehow seem to soothe the eye. The Colt Peacemaker revolver, the Tommy gun and the Luger have the same effect; all are instantly known and knowable. They have a design charisma that transcends their actual usage in the real world.

The funniest thing about the Winchester lever-action rifle is how American it looks. Its directness speaks to the honest greed of westward expansion, its reliability to the honest hunger of its manufacturers for the big houses it bought them, its toughness to the honest brutality by which it was employed in various arroyos and dry gulches. It lacks subterfuge, subtlety, pretension, airs. It's like the cowboy himself, elegant in its total lack of self-awareness. It's beyond irony or stylization. It's cool because it doesn't care what you or anybody thinks.

Now open it; shove the lever -- that oblong loop affixed to the trigger guard -- forward. Feel it slide-clack through a four-inch range of motion and watch the drama as the gun undergoes changes: the breech, which contains the firing pin, glides backward, ratcheting the hammer back. At that moment you can tilt it a little and peer into the opened slot in the roof of the receiver.

You see before you the gun's most private parts: the chamber, the slightly bulged space in the barrel where the cartridge is encapsulated when it fires; the follower, a little spring-powered tray that lifts a cartridge (which has just been popped aboard by the pressure of the magazine tube spring) up to the chamber; the breechface with its tiny hole out of which will pop, whack-a-mole style, the firing pin when the trigger is pulled and the hammer falls.

You see: trays, pins, holes, steel walls. You see a miracle of timing by which all these elements have been choreographed to mesh in a brilliantly syncopated sequence. But you're also looking back into the 19th century and to what it was that made this country great. For what you're seeing is a solution -- elegant as any poem, efficient as any mousetrap, smooth as any crooner -- to a set of problems that might be enumerated as follows: How do you package chemical energy of roughly 3,000 foot-pounds safely in metal that is at the same time light enough to be carried, strong enough to be operated and simple enough to be manufactured?

Then you realize you're in the cockpit of what was then the hottest, most brutally competitive arena of that portion of the Industrial Revolution -- its Silicon Valley, if you will. New Haven is where all the young Bill Gateses -- their names were Winchester, Colt, Henry, Smith, Wesson, Marlin and a few others -- went to make their fortunes as their nation grew, sometimes violently, westward.

The key gizmo behind the lever-action Winchester's genius, present from the first prototype in 1849 to the last one that will come off the New Haven line in a few weeks, is a little thing called a toggle-link, which is why the guns produce such a volume of clacking and sliding and clinking when they are worked. With this doohickey, the manual downward and forward rotation of a lever opened the breech, allowed an empty case to eject as it slammed against a prong and a fresh cartridge to come out of a tubular magazine and rest on that tray just below the action even as the rearward thrust of the breech cocked the hammer. Then the lever was rotated upward and backward, the tray was lifted, the breech came forward and moved the fresh cartridge into the chamber. That was it: two cranks of the lever, one forward a few inches, one backward the same few inches, and you didn't even have to take the gun off your shoulder. You were ready to shoot again. "It is placed beyond all competition by the rapidity of its execution. Thirty shots can be fired in less than one minute," wrote Frank Leslie's Illustrated Weekly in 1858.

The mechanism went through many iterations -- among the inventors and investors were men named Hunt, Jennings, Arrowsmith, Palmer and Henry. It was sometimes called the Hunt Volitional Repeater, the Smith & Wesson rifle (before Messrs. Smith and Wesson took their investment money into the handgun market exclusively), the Volcanic Navy Pistol and finally the Henry -- before it found a home under the sponsorship of capitalist, shirtmaker and business genius Oliver Winchester, who took over the company in the late 1850s and renamed it after himself in 1866. (For more on all this, see "Winchester: The Gun That Won the West" by Harold F. Williamson and "Winchester: An American Legend" by R.L. Wilson.)

Winchester produced lever-gun models of 1866, 1873 (this was the famous "Gun That Won the West"), 1886, 1892, 1894 and 1895, each an improvement upon what had come before. Probably the most radical upgrade occurred in '86, when the genius gun designer John M. Browning brought his brilliance to Winchester and found a way to strengthen the action so that it could fire high-power rifle cartridges, which made it far more useful as a hunting arm (it had fired only pistol cartridges before). When smokeless powder increased the efficiency of the cartridge in the 1890s, the 1894 Model was ideally suited to take advantage of the breakthrough, and the Model 94 in .30-30 became the preeminent deer hunting rifle of the early 20th century.

"The Winchester is by all odds the best weapon I ever had and I now use it almost exclusively," wrote Montana rancher Theodore Roosevelt in 1885. "The Winchester is the best gun for any game to be found in the United States, for it is as deadly, accurate and handy as any, stands very rough usage, and is unapproachable for the rapidity of its fire and the facility with which it is loaded."

If the gun was a star almost from the beginning, it had a unique ability to make stars as well. I can think of a batch of men who were helped enormously by their association with Winchester. One was a fellow named Henry McCarty, or possibly William H. Bonney. Whatever he was named, he became known as Billy the Kid and the only extant picture of him shows him clutching a Model 73 almost half his size, while his other hand dangles close by, thumb cocked, fingers tensed, over his Colt Peacemaker, whose grip tilts provocatively out of the holster. Dressed for bear or Garrett's posse, the Kid looks tough, dangerous, fast and cool. Did the rifle make the Kid a star or did the Kid make the rifle a star? Who knows? He looks to me like he knows he's already a star, that hat atilt on his head, his face calm. Whether he killed 21 as legend says or only four as many historians believe, he's a deadly little tyke and his killer's intensity works a weird alchemy with the big rifle he clearly loves and trusts and has and will use again.

Then there's a taller, grave guy, better-looking, less lethal, just as entwined with the Winchester. His was a short-barreled carbine Model 92 and someone had battered the loop of the lever until it looked swollen and distended. This allowed the fellow to gracefully swing-cock it under his long arms. It was a cool move, so cool that when Pappy Ford filmed him doing it in 1939 in Monument Valley, near the Utah-Arizona border, he made John Wayne a star. Wayne used that rifle or one just like it (there seem to have been four altogether) over the years in a variety of movies, like "Hondo" and even as late as 1959's "Rio Bravo." Wayne, something of a gun expert himself, knew that a handgun's only purpose was to fight your way to the rifle you were going to win your fight with. He used the Winchester a lot.

A few years later, a cowboy from Pennsylvania helped rekindle a stumbling career by picking up a Winchester. His name was Jimmy Stewart, and the movie was called no less than "Winchester '73," in the year 1950.

Another tall fellow with another set of long arms and another Model 92 had worked the first base position for the Chicago Cubs in the '50s, to no particular distinction. He ambled westward, and in 1962 Chuck Connors became "The Rifleman" and had a few years of TV stardom plus an immortality in the baby boomer imagination.

Then a surly ex-Marine picked up a '92 that had been radically shortened at both barrel and stock so it could be carried like a handgun, and glared his way to stardom on "Wanted: Dead or Alive." His name was Steve McQueen.

The Winchester lever-action rifle was very good to these gentlemen, to thousands and thousands of ranchers, actors and hunters, more than a few lawmen, even a newer generation of Cowboy Action Shooters who used it as their enabler for a fantasy vacation in the Old West. But now it's going away for good. The tough old capitalists who invented it wouldn't shed a tear for it: If you can't sell it, dump it, was their motto. Actors, farmers, hunters and lawmen have all found better guns, and so have Cowboy Fantasy shooters.

But here's a vaya con Di os for the old smokepole. May it go to a Long Branch in the sky where the whiskey's always flowing, the gals are purty and the clock always reads High Noon.
© 2006 The Washington Post Company


It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance
 
Posts: 249 | Location: kentucky USA | Registered: 04 January 2005Reply With Quote
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WOW!!! boohoo Frowner couldn't have said it any better myself! thanks!


*We Band of 45-70er's*

"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-
 
Posts: 497 | Location: Illinois | Registered: 27 May 2004Reply With Quote
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Simply amazing that article ran in the Washington Post!! Figured the press would be jumping up and down over this.

Huntr
 
Posts: 14 | Registered: 02 November 2005Reply With Quote
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Very well said and thanks for posting this. Losing Winchester is like watching a part of our history fade away.


"When you play, play hard; when you work, don't play at all."
Theodore Roosevelt
 
Posts: 4263 | Location: Pinetop, Arizona | Registered: 02 January 2006Reply With Quote
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We all need to e mail Stephen Hunter and Thank him for a great article.

I can remember back to 1960 and it was my tenth birthday. I got a few things from my Mom and relatives; a few comic books,subscription to Boys Life,clothes,etc. I was SO dissapointed as I had absolutely thought I was finally going to get the Winchester M-61 I had dreamed about.

Then very reminiscent to the BB gun scene in "A Christmas Story" my Dad tells me to look under the couch. There is a short cardboard box and the first thing I see is the WINCHESTER script. But it's not a M-61 but a single shot 67-A "Boys" rifle. In retrospect probably the smarter choice for a wild ten year old.

I still have that rifle as well as the $18.50 receipt from a NJ gun shop long out of business. Couldn't even imagine the tens of thousands of rds I fired from that gun.

The closing of Winchester is such a sad situation. I so wish they had publisised this a bit and I'm sure many of us would have tried to buy an extra gun or two.

End of an era and the loss of a historic piece of American history.

FN in MT


'I'm tryin' to think, but nothin' happens"!

Curly Howard
Definitive Stooge
 
Posts: 350 | Location: Cascade, Montana | Registered: 26 October 2005Reply With Quote
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That is a great article, I have never owned a m94 and probably won't, but he's right, when you pick one up you just HAVE to cycle the action.
 
Posts: 475 | Location: Moncton, New Brunswick | Registered: 30 August 2003Reply With Quote
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Before everyone gets too weepy eyed let's remember that "Winchester" disappeared when something called "US Repeating Arms" started turning out so called "Winchesters". I shot real Winchesters manufactured by Americans in American plants owned by Americans. Those days are gone. This is just a hiccup on the way to eliminating one more American name. (Smith & Wesson was under Brit ownership for years - and for all I know, still is. I don't care. I have my S&W, the one made when Americans owned their gun companies -and unless it rusts to pieces before my eyes, I don't need to replace it)
 
Posts: 800 | Location: NY | Registered: 01 June 2005Reply With Quote
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At least as far as I have seen nobody has in here or publicly said this was a "win" for the anti gun folks. That would really piss me off. mgun Then again too, maybe they know somehow that Winchester is not going anywhere, so they are not celebrating yet...
 
Posts: 986 | Location: Columbia, SC | Registered: 22 January 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by gerry375:
Before everyone gets too weepy eyed let's remember that "Winchester" disappeared when something called "US Repeating Arms" started turning out so called "Winchesters". I shot real Winchesters manufactured by Americans in American plants owned by Americans. Those days are gone. This is just a hiccup on the way to eliminating one more American name. (Smith & Wesson was under Brit ownership for years - and for all I know, still is. I don't care. I have my S&W, the one made when Americans owned their gun companies -and unless it rusts to pieces before my eyes, I don't need to replace it)

Man, you are turly ignorant.

So USRAC is not owned by Americans. It is owned by The Herstal Group, the same conglomerate that own Fabrique Nationale (remember them?) and whose ONLY business is making weapons. Besides, Herstal Group is publicly owned, and its ownership is diluted throught investors of sizes and nationalities. Just like American icons like about Ford, you know?

Smith & Wesson is owned by the Safe-T-Hammer corporation, from Phoenix, Arizona.

Ironically, it is reactionary numbnuts like you why USRAC is shutting down their US production. You and your attitude that you will never buy a new gun because of a myriad of horseshit reasons.

You can pat yourself on the back.
 
Posts: 985 | Registered: 06 February 2005Reply With Quote
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Does anyone reading this thread besides me, happen to wonder if this is the same Stephen Hunter who wrote, "Sudden Impact", "Time to Hunt", "Hot Springs", etc. Damn good books and the guy knows firearms.
 
Posts: 442 | Location: Montana territory | Registered: 02 July 2005Reply With Quote
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yellowstone,
Yes, I think this is the same fella. And I love all his books in the Bob "The Nailer" Swagger and Earl Swagger series. He either knows firearms, or knows someone who does. Coupla years ago, in a little ole gunstore in Laramie WY, I ran across a first edition copy of his first novel "The Master Sniper", with dust cover, and in pretty good shape, for $5.00!

I think I heard a rumor he may have another novel coming out in this series soon.
 
Posts: 273 | Location: Dakota | Registered: 28 December 2003Reply With Quote
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As a free lance consultant to FN-Browning, I received this letter, explaining the closing down of the Winchester plant :
O/Ref.: BI/DK/sd/2006-01/05 January 18th, 2006
Dear ,

I am writing to advise you that after considerable study we are about to make some fundamental changes to the Winchester Firearms lines.
The review is in to the future of the Model 1300 Pump Action, the Model 94 Lever Action and the Model 70 Rifle, where we are currently losing considerable sums with a badly adapted plan for modern manufacture, in New Haven, Connecticut.
We are therefore announcing that Model 1300, Model 94 and Model 70 Rifle order will continue to be fulfilled as long as stocks last and that the plant in New Haven will close end of March 2006.
Browning International will continue to sell and grow its current line of Winchester Select Over & Under shotguns and semi-auto rifles and shotguns manufactured at the Browning Viana factory in Portugal.
We will introduce in 2006 the new Super X3 auto-loading shotgun and the new Super X auto-loading rifle.
We also plan to introduce additional new models in the very near future.
There will be no change in the After Sale Customer Service that Browning International continues to provide.
The above decision has no impact on the Winchester ammunition business.
This action is a realignment of resources to make Winchester Firearms a stronger, more viable organization. Winchester Firearms plans to continue the Great Winchester legacy and is very excited about the future.
Sincerely Yours,

Damien Kaivers
Chief Operational Officer



BROWNING INTERNATIONAL s.a. Registered Office: Parc Industriel des Hauts-Sarts, 3ème Avenue 25, B-4040 Herstal - Belgium Phone: +32 (0) 4 240 52 11 – Fax: + 32 (0) 4 240 52 12 – VAT: BE. 430 037 226 – RPM-Liège: 0430.037.226 Bank account: FORTIS Bank, Place Xavier Neujean, 8, B-4000 Liège – Belgium – IBAN BE 26 2400 0136 0529 – BIC: GEBABEBB www.browningint.com


André
DRSS
---------

3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact.
5 shots are a group.
 
Posts: 2420 | Location: Belgium | Registered: 25 August 2001Reply With Quote
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I remember the Model 94 30-30 I got for Mom & Dad for Christmas when I was 12 - I still have it.

The memories just flow back whenever I hold it!

Hits and misses - deer, coyotes, jackrabbits - Dad betting on me against the other guys in deer camp that first season - betting I could hit that beer bottle at over 100 yards - winning over $200 dollars for my Dad - Not getting any of it!!!

Lots of memories.

It still is the best carryin' rifle I have.


Lance

Lance Larson Studio

lancelarsonstudio.com
 
Posts: 933 | Location: Casa Grande, AZ | Registered: 11 June 2005Reply With Quote
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HP Shooter:

As a very old man I can laugh at young "studs" like you. (BTW, I was interested in the campaign hat in your avatar. Are you entitled to wear one?)

Apparently you either read too fast or not too well. I suggest that you read my post again - this time slowly.
 
Posts: 800 | Location: NY | Registered: 01 June 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by gerry375:
HP Shooter:

As a very old man I can laugh at young "studs" like you. (BTW, I was interested in the campaign hat in your avatar. Are you entitled to wear one?)

Apparently you either read too fast or not too well. I suggest that you read my post again - this time slowly.

Your post need no re-reading. Guys like you are the reason traditional American gun companies are slowly dying. To people like you, nothing made today is worth a shit, but you freely admit you haven't even looked at what is made today.

Paradoxically, young guys like me are making a new wave of American gun companies (that specialize in those Mickey Mouse AR15s) thrive and keep the Second Amendment alive.

Elmer Fudd guns are the past. The black rifles own the future.
 
Posts: 985 | Registered: 06 February 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by HP Shooter:
quote:
Originally posted by gerry375:
HP Shooter:

As a very old man I can laugh at young "studs" like you. (BTW, I was interested in the campaign hat in your avatar. Are you entitled to wear one?)

Apparently you either read too fast or not too well. I suggest that you read my post again - this time slowly.

Your post need no re-reading. Guys like you are the reason traditional American gun companies are slowly dying. To people like you, nothing made today is worth a shit, but you freely admit you haven't even looked at what is made today.

Paradoxically, young guys like me are making a new wave of American gun companies (that specialize in those Mickey Mouse AR15s) thrive and keep the Second Amendment alive.

Elmer Fudd guns are the past. The black rifles own the future.


Sorry guys, as long as you young guys and you old guys are fighting, it makes it easier for the anti's to pick us apart and ban the guns we both enjoy.
 
Posts: 1343 | Location: Northern California | Registered: 15 January 2006Reply With Quote
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I had a m-94 once, (traded a car for it), thought it was dangerous and it sucked. I sold the gun for a hundred bucks.

I like black guns too. You cant beat the feel of anodized aluminum and a nice piece of plastic.


------------------------------------
Originally posted by BART185

I've had another member on this board post an aireal photograph of my neighborhood,post my wifes name,dig up old ads on GunsAmerica,call me out on everything that I posted. Hell,obmuteR told me to FIST MYSELF. But you are the biggest jackass that I've seen yet, on this board!
--------------------------------------

-Ratboy
 
Posts: 194 | Location: Copperhead Road | Registered: 11 March 2005Reply With Quote
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You cant get 10 white guys to agree on anything,thats why hunting will disapear in 50 years or so.If you get 10 new orleans blacks sitting on chairs waiting on the govt to feed them they will agree its all racial and the govt sent the hurricane to hurt only blacks on crack and welfare.They all agree its the racial govt that sent the storm to them.We hunters argue so much about what gun is good and how many trophies can we put on the wall that we shot inside a fence.Hunting is going to become a sport for the rich because we didnt take more kids hunting.The average hunter is 42 and we are not repoducing like the wonderful people of new orleans who like to hunt each other instead of hunting for food.That is another thing the importance of the trophy value rather than the meat value of the animal.The public sees trophy hunting for fun as wrong where as hunting for meat as a tradition way of life that has been lost in our greedness in who killed the biggest one.If we dont get more kids hunting instead of filling our trophy rooms hunting will be gone in 50 years.I bet then winchester will mean the evil gun that kilkled off all the native americans instead of the favorite deer rifle that the model 94 use to be.
 
Posts: 2543 | Registered: 21 December 2003Reply With Quote
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Big Bore Boar Hunter:

Yeah, you're right, of course- in one way. What bothers me about people like him is that they have no experience at all - but will shoot their mouth off. I still want to know where he got that avatar of a campaign hat. I knew people who wore a campaign hat because they were entitled to wear it - and when I was young and taking orders from them. I was taught to keep my mouth shut when I didn't know what I was talking about! Do you think you can get this young squirt to slow down and listen up? I doubt it!
 
Posts: 800 | Location: NY | Registered: 01 June 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by gerry375:
What bothers me about people like him is that they have no experience at all - but will shoot their mouth off. I still want to know where he got that avatar of a campaign hat. I knew people who wore a campaign hat because they were entitled to wear it - and when I was young and taking orders from them. I was taught to keep my mouth shut when I didn't know what I was talking about! Do you think you can get this young squirt to slow down and listen up? I doubt it!


Are you going to report me to the hat police? rotflmo

Where I got the avatar or why I have it is none of your business. Just like I told someone else, I do not discuss my personal and professional background with total strangers.

Move over, elmer fudds. The young know-it-alls are here:

 
Posts: 985 | Registered: 06 February 2005Reply With Quote
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I too am very sad to hear about Winchester's demise, regardless of who owns it. I hope someone picks it up. Anyone and everyone who hunts and/or shoots any type of firearm should be upset as well.

For the record: There is no such thing as a young know-it-all. It stands to reason.


-eric

" . . . a gun is better worn and with bloom off---So is a saddle---People too by God." -EH
 
Posts: 952 | Location: Bakersfield, California | Registered: 03 June 2005Reply With Quote
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Just looks like a bunch playing the modern version of cowboys & 'injuns. Shooters, not hunters. Not one dead game animal in sight.

So I guess it's comparing apples to asparagus, Winchester 94 was a hunting rifle. These black things are grown up kid's toys.
 
Posts: 4799 | Location: Lehigh county, PA | Registered: 17 October 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by onefunzr2:
Just looks like a bunch playing the modern version of cowboys & 'injuns. Shooters, not hunters. Not one dead game animal in sight.


Agreed, nothing to do with hunting OR Winchesters.


-eric

" . . . a gun is better worn and with bloom off---So is a saddle---People too by God." -EH
 
Posts: 952 | Location: Bakersfield, California | Registered: 03 June 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by onefunzr2: Shooters, not hunters.

The Second Amendmend is not about hunting. At all.

What you saw there IS what the 2A is all about. The serious business of being ready, willing, and able.
 
Posts: 985 | Registered: 06 February 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by onefunzr2:
Winchester 94 was a hunting rifle. These black things are grown up kid's toys.

Actually, the Model 94 is the toy as hunting is merely a game. A pastime.

Defensive shooting skills are a far more serious business.
 
Posts: 985 | Registered: 06 February 2005Reply With Quote
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Hunting is a sport. M94 is a sport hunting rifle.

You and your GI Joe buddys are swat team wannabes. Black clothes, black rifles and pumped up egos. Isn't AR15.com calling?
 
Posts: 4799 | Location: Lehigh county, PA | Registered: 17 October 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by HP Shooter:
Actually, the Model 94 is the toy as hunting is merely a game. A pastime.


Hunting is a way that many folks all over the world feed their families (including here in the USA). While it is often enjoyable, it is not a game.

A classic example of why there is no such thing as a young-know-it-all.


-eric

" . . . a gun is better worn and with bloom off---So is a saddle---People too by God." -EH
 
Posts: 952 | Location: Bakersfield, California | Registered: 03 June 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
...you get 10 new orleans blacks sitting on chairs waiting on the govt to feed them...



Actually it's comments like this that will end hunting. Convince the American public that hunting is not simply a hobby undertaken by ignorant, racist, rednecks and it may just survive.

JMHO,

John
 
Posts: 4697 | Location: North Africa and North America | Registered: 05 July 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnTheGreek:
quote:
...you get 10 new orleans blacks sitting on chairs waiting on the govt to feed them...



Actually it's comments like this that will end hunting. Convince the American public that hunting is not simply a hobby undertaken by ignorant, racist, rednecks and it may just survive.

JMHO,

John

You mean to tell us that there aren't blacks in the US that sit around doing nothing except turn .gov checks into Colt 45?

Calling a spade a spade is now racist?

You libtards amuse me with your "sensibilities".
 
Posts: 985 | Registered: 06 February 2005Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by onefunzr2:
Hunting is a sport. M94 is a sport hunting rifle.

You and your GI Joe buddys are swat team wannabes. Black clothes, black rifles and pumped up egos. Isn't AR15.com calling?


rotflmo

Now that you mention it, membership at arfcom dwarfs this place. I wonder why?
 
Posts: 985 | Registered: 06 February 2005Reply With Quote
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FN in Montana-

Anyone have Stephen Hunter's e-mail address?

I agree with you, we all need to send Mr. Hunter a thank you for the article. I talked to him about 10 years ago on the phone. He is a really class act.

Thanks in advance.


May the wind be in your face and the sun at your back.

P. Mark Stark
 
Posts: 1323 | Location: San Antonio, Texas | Registered: 04 March 2003Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
pissers
HPShooter,
Hunting is a game????A pastime???? Defensive shooting skills are much more serious???

Sorry, but I must disagree!! I'll assume that you were raised with the silver spoon and that your parents never struggled to provide groceries for you. If that's true,,,,,it must be nice. Some of us did (and sometimes still do) actually have to live off of what we could provide by our own hands. We hunted, fished, raised farm animals for food, grew gardens and canned the veggies for the winter. This was certainly not a game!

As far as defensive shooting being more serious,,,,,,,maybe to some,,,,,,,but I haven't found myself having to "defensively" shoot my way out of a situation,,,,,,ever. But then again,,,,I try not to let my mouth overload my ass either. Maybe it seems more serious to you for self inflictive reasons?


./l ,[___],
l--L=OlllllO=
O_) O_)~-)_)
If at first you don't succeed,,,failure may be your thing!!!
 
Posts: 198 | Location: Yuma, Arizona | Registered: 23 November 2005Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by HP Shooter:
quote:
Originally posted by onefunzr2:
Winchester 94 was a hunting rifle. These black things are grown up kid's toys.

Actually, the Model 94 is the toy as hunting is merely a game. A pastime.

Defensive shooting skills are a far more serious business.


I guess that depends on how you fill the freezer with meat, doesn't it?

Cheers, Dave.


Cheers, Dave.

Aut Inveniam Viam aut Faciam.
 
Posts: 6716 | Location: The Hunting State. | Registered: 08 March 2005Reply With Quote
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Picture of Duckear
posted Hide Post
The M70 won't die and neither will the name Winchester. It will be back. The question is when and where it is made.


Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps.
 
Posts: 3113 | Location: Southern US | Registered: 21 July 2002Reply With Quote
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Having just read through all the previous posts on this thread it strikes me as PHENOMENAL that I was fortunate that I live in a country that the citizens have the right to bear arms, the right to speak their opinions without fear of reprisal from the government. All the previous posts contain elements of what I believe to be truth, although there is some personal opinions masqurading as fact. What is a fact is that this is a great country and the only way to keep traditions strong and the ideas behind the 2nd Amendment alive and vital is to pass the concepts to others whether they be our kids, friends, relatives or neighbors.

Back to the original theme of this thread. Companies live or die according to their ability to deal with the demand for, or lack thereof, for their product. If Winchester can't produce products that entice the public to purchase them then something has to change. It's neither good nor bad, the market determines whether a company survives or not. The market has no pity nor does it take sides, it simply is. I am sorry to hear of this news about Winchester, hopefully they will get the chance to rectify the situation and produce products that meet the needs of the market.

Take someone hunting or shooting, it's all about keeping our rights!!
 
Posts: 98 | Location: Eagle, Idaho | Registered: 06 January 2005Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by HP Shooter:

Calling a spade a spade is now racist?



In your case, YES given the above interesting choice of words. While the origin of the phrase is not racist (Greek origin actually), narrow minded folks like you don't usually know this.

Best Regards,

John
 
Posts: 4697 | Location: North Africa and North America | Registered: 05 July 2001Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Riodot:
I remember the Model 94 30-30 I got for Mom & Dad for Christmas when I was 12 - I still have it.

The memories just flow back whenever I hold it!

Hits and misses - deer, coyotes, jackrabbits - Dad betting on me against the other guys in deer camp that first season - betting I could hit that beer bottle at over 100 yards - winning over $200 dollars for my Dad - Not getting any of it!!!

Lots of memories.

It still is the best carryin' rifle I have.


I am glad my father didn't promote shooting glass bottles in deer camp or anyplace else. Riodot, we have a huge problem in AZ with slobs shooting bottles in the desert and lots of other garbage. I am sure that someday in the nto too distant future we will lose our rights to shoot in the desert and be bound to ranges just like guys east of the big river.


Don't Ever Book a Hunt with Jeff Blair
http://forums.accuratereloadin...821061151#2821061151

 
Posts: 7580 | Location: Arizona and off grid in CO | Registered: 28 July 2004Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by JohnTheGreek:
quote:
...you get 10 new orleans blacks sitting on chairs waiting on the govt to feed them...



Actually it's comments like this that will end hunting. Convince the American public that hunting is not simply a hobby undertaken by ignorant, racist, rednecks and it may just survive.

JMHO,

John


John:

You are way too liberal for my tastes, but this is one topic that I agree with you on. We need more inclusion, not less. There is a reason the NRA embraces the Pink Pistols. And no, I am not gay, so spare those comments.

HP:
I used to respect you quite a bit, but your comment really turns me off. Too bad...


Don't Ever Book a Hunt with Jeff Blair
http://forums.accuratereloadin...821061151#2821061151

 
Posts: 7580 | Location: Arizona and off grid in CO | Registered: 28 July 2004Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by JohnTheGreek:
quote:
Originally posted by HP Shooter:

Calling a spade a spade is now racist?



In your case, YES given the above interesting choice of words. While the origin of the phrase is not racist (Greek origin actually), narrow minded folks like you don't usually know this.

Best Regards,

John

You dumbass. It went right over your head.

Answer the original question:
quote:
You mean to tell us that there aren't blacks in the US that sit around doing nothing except turn .gov checks into Colt 45?
 
Posts: 985 | Registered: 06 February 2005Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
HP:
I used to respect you quite a bit, but your comment really turns me off. Too bad...


AAZW: I used to respect you quite a bit, but the fact that you prefer to pretend that there is not a significant portion of black America sitting on its ass in a perpetual state of dependency on government cheese really turns me off.

Too bad.........
 
Posts: 985 | Registered: 06 February 2005Reply With Quote
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