As we all know, most game is taken at 100 meters or less. For me, shooting beyond 250 mtrs is a stretch as I miss as often as hit. My longest successful shot is about 300 mtrs. I just don't shoot well beyond that distance and have not ever practiced at that distance.

My suggestion to hunters and shooters is to only shoot at a distance that you have practiced at.

dogcat:

The world has changed a lot since this 76 year old (retired) hunter was in the field when he reads that someone from Oklahoma uses "meters" as a measure of distance! ( No offense meant) I happen to agree with your suggestion. (I did figure out a rough conversion to yards)

The easy rough conversion is to take meters and add 10% to get yards - 100m + 10%x100m ~ = 110 yds.

While I did vote, I think the catagories are a little misleading in that there is a BIG difference in the way I answer the question for 300 and 750 yards. You might get a different spread if you had 300 and 500.

I also see a difference between hunting and shooting based on the number of animals available. I hunt where deer are pests, I saw close to 30 in 2 days of turkey hunting last weekend. Come fall, I can not really consider that many deer hunting, per se, regardless of the distance.

I did not vote in the poll. If someone is able to shoot at long distances and do it while hunting, it is hunting no matter the range.

I like to think of "hunting" as being within the sensory range of the animal such that it has a chance to spot or smell you and get away. Thus, the dividing line for me varies with the capabilities of the animal being pursued.

I am not going to vote in the poll either, since one has to locate the game animal one wants to shoot in the first place, so scouting out location is part of hunting not shooting, since just setting up any place is not going to mean that you are going to get a shot at anything.

Hunting and capabilities have evolved from spear to bow and arrows to matchlocks and flintlocks to percussion and cartridge guns to modern smokeless and casesless ammuntion, from rudimentary iron sights to laser assisted optics.

So what criteria determines what is hunting and what is shooting? and who sets it and does it apply everywhere or is it geographical in origin?

How one hunts in Montana will differ vastly to how one would hunt in Maine. Hunting in Virginia will differ greatly from hunting in Alaska and to people who have never experienced hunting in a vastly different terrain after game that acts differently (even if it is the same species as at home) because of said differences , will look at some of the hunting practices and with disgust and disdain call them unethical or that is shooting and not hunting, never once admitting to even themselves that it may be thier very ignorance that is the problem, not the hunting practices of those who live in these different regions.

If one is capable and proficient and are suitably set up to do it, then I for one will not stand in judgement on someone just because they willingly shoot and harvest game animals outside of someone elses comfort zone.

In my opinion, anytime your bullet drifts more than 4 inches (and that is being generous) in a one mile per wind, you are merely lucky if you hit your target. This occurs well under 1500 yards with any caliber I am aware of, and for almost any "normal" cartridge, it is well under 1000 yards. For example, with a .300 RUM, it is just past 700 yards.

I can't believe that this many people voted on 200 yards, which should be a chip shot. The range at which hunting becomes shooting to me is very variable depending on terrain. In the western USA a 200-250 yard shot is surely hunting. In a lot of terrain that is getting as close as possible.

I don't like to get wrapped up in "hunting vs. shooting" arguments. The two skills are linked and both are necessary for success.

If you cannot hunt effectively, you won't be doing much shooting.
If you cannot shoot effectively, you aren't really hunting.

I personally don't like to shoot past 400yds but, I have no problem w/ someone shooting that far if he's well praticed and effective at that range.

The fact is that most people who feel it's not hunting when people shoot game animals at that distance are the people that can't shoot that far effectively.

A hunter that can consistantly hit a target at say 600 yards is a hunter that is darn well practiced at that distance and knows his equipment very well. IMO, he should probably get more credit in the skills department than Joe Blow taking one at 50 yards.

Distance doesnt really matter as long as it's w/in the hunter's capability. Now, when you start talking about Billy Bob that sighted his rifle in at 50 yards and shoots at game out at 500 yards, that's a whole different story.

I often hunt w/ a bow but don't consider it any more of hunting than when I take my rifles. It's just as difficult to get a shot at a good buck w/ bow or gun in many of the areas I hunt because it's thick around here unless you sit in a fresh timber cut, Pasture, or on a Right of Way for utilities and even then youve got to do your homework(Hunt) if you want to find where a good buck or boar is crossing.

Good Luck

Reloader

While there seem to be a good many hunters who take big game shots in the 300-400 yard range, the survey's 750, 1000, and 1500 yard choices are interesting. Are there hunters who really can't get within a half mile of their prey?

Definetly a personal thing...

To me, hunting vs shooting has nothing to do with distance, but rather the circumstances of the hunt.

A 50 yard shot to a corn feeder as game comes to eat is shooting, while a 50 yard shot in a well scouted and well planned treestand location is hunting.

But in all honesty, I enjoy both! When the freezer's empty, I'll hunt (shoot) in wide open fields with long shots for does. After meat's in the freezer, I'll usually move into thick cover and hunt good buck travel,feeding, and rut sign.

As long as the hunter enjoys it, can be proud of the game taken, and its legal, nothing's wrong with either approach.

Jon

it really depends on the animal and the territory and the skill of the hunter. I watched a 14 year old kill an antelope once at 576 paces. He was a good shot and thats as close as he was going to get to the buck. On the other hand if your idea of hunting is sneaking up close, wearing nothing but a loincloth, using your knife and then yelling ahahahahahah at the top of your lungs, then have at it

My longest shooting has been on the 600 yard National Match Course firing M-1 Rifles in .30-06 and 7.62mm NATO, so I just dated myself. IMHO sniping at big game at such ranges is just shooting, allowing for some strange and magnificent stalks out west. Then we need to add in the Varmint Hunters who do Shoot prairie dogs routinely at 500 and 600 yards, but that is still shooting from benches and platforms. Serious hunting where you take a real position and fire the rifle from sticks or unsupported off hand, possibly kneeling, that gets into hunting and sport. In hunting situations, my longest personal shot was a hair over 200 yards as measured by a Leica rangefinder. The longest shot I have seen accomplished was 280 yards, then we have the other extremes where the hunter is confronted by the deer at near point blank ranges, inside 15 yards. In 35 years of hunting, the bulk of the deer taken have been at ranges under 100 yards, which is also, by the way, the same range you can expect to shoot at if you are hunting/harvesting on a game ranch over feeders. There is nothing as exhilerating as finishing a stalk with a clean one shot kill, not matter what the range.

LLS

quote:

There are some who feel that at a certain long range that using a rifle should no longer be considered "hunting" but rather just "shooting" a big game animal. At what range do you feel this occurs?

I disagree with the entire premise - for me.

I "Hunt" until I see something I want to Kill and then I "Shoot" the Game. Distance has absolutely nothing to do with deciding what to "call" what I do.

I do some very short distance Hunting and Shooting. And I also do some very long distance Hunting and Shooting. But, the vast majority of it is done in between the extremes.

As long as a person "Practices" actually shooting at the distance he wants to attempt to Kill Game, it becomes self evident when that distance is too far. And that particular "distance" is different for everyone.

So, I reject the concept that "Hunting" becomes "Shooting" due to any particular Distance.

I also reject the premise that a particular range makes the difference between "hunting" and "shooting" a big game animal but it's interesting that the majority of those answering the poll questions don't consider shooting a big game animal at a distance of over 300 yards hunting.

It is possible that my question should have been phrased differently. I assumed that the hunter and rifle were capable of consistently a bullet in the vitals of the animal. With some rifles, the accuracy and/or ballistics are such that a 300 yard shot is a gamble; I'm personally against gambling in hunting. There are rifles capable of less than 1 MOA and with good retained energy beyond 1,000 yards; shooting with one of these wouldn't really be a gamble.

I would list other factors as determining as to whether or not an activity was hunting:

1. If a hunter wishes to use a 50 BMG capable of over 1,000 yard 1 MOA accuracy that is fine as long as said hunter is capable of carrying and shooting his weapon by himself off road in a hunting situation.

2. The animal must have a fair chance of escape.

3. The hunter and/or guide must exercise some type of skills (however bad) that demonstrate the ability to track, ambush or stalk the game animal.

4. The hunter must kill the animal by himself/herself. It is the practice by some to credit the first drawer of blood to be the successful hunter. In my opinion, that is fine as long as the weapon/projectile used by the hunter hit an area that would cause the death of the animal. A hole in an ear does not a successful hunter make (I guess a hole in an ear could be considered unskillful or unsuccessful hunting).

I've killed a lot of mule deer and antelope at ranges from 300 to 400 yards +. In the areas of eastern Montana where I do my hunting for those animals that was often as close as anyone was ever going to get at that moment. I should note that getting that close often requires crawling some distance. ( If you don't know what a prickly-pear is you haven't hunted much in the areas I do!)

The biggest determining factor for me is not necessarily range, it's windage. Even on the seemingly open and featureless praire wind currents can be fickle and as variable as in any mountain range. Under or over estimate the wind effects and you can throw your shot off considerabily, even at distances under 300 yards. Try shooting praire dogs some day (with your big game rifle) when it's blowing like hell, it's a real education. If the wind is howeling I try to keep my shots under 200 yards and only take high percentage broadsides.

quote:

Originally posted by HunterMontana:
I've killed a lot of mule deer and antelope at ranges from 300 to 400 yards +. In the areas of eastern Montana where I do my hunting for those animals that was often as close as anyone was ever going to get at that moment. I should note that getting that close often requires crawling some distance. ( If you don't know what a prickly-pear is you haven't hunted much in the areas I do!)

The biggest determining factor for me is not necessarily range, it's windage. Even on the seemingly open and featureless praire wind currents can be fickle and as variable as in any mountain range. Under or over estimate the wind effects and you can throw your shot off considerabily, even at distances under 300 yards. Try shooting praire dogs some day (with your big game rifle) when it's blowing like hell, it's a real education. If the wind is howeling I try to keep my shots under 200 yards and only take high percentage broadsides.

You said it Montana. Seems like a lot of folks think 1 MOA and energy are all that's required. Ha!

Grumulkin: I totally disagree that there is any rifle or shooter capable of making a 1000 shot so often that it is not a gamble. A one mile per wind will blow any bullet completely out of the vital area of a deer. I keep saying it, but I haven't ever heard any long range hunting fan address it better than "I never shoot that far unless there is no wind."

Yea, right.

I do, however, totally agree with your "rule" that one should get off the road and not shoot a BR gun from a logging road. That is shooting.

If this is a question of hunting skill required.let me put a different twist on it.Does it take more skill to find and kill a B&C animal on a self guided hunt at 300 yards,or does it take more skill to find and kill any legal animal at 50 yards or less?I could easily kill a legal deer every day of the season at 50 yards or less,but I have passed up many legal animals at very close distances,in my pursuit of a B&C buck.

Once the Animal that you are hunting for is found and you decide to shooting hunting has stopped and shooting has begun the distance does not decide this

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
In my opinion, anytime your bullet drifts more than 4 inches (and that is being generous) in a one mile per wind, you are merely lucky if you hit your target. This occurs well under 1500 yards with any caliber I am aware of, and for almost any "normal" cartridge, it is well under 1000 yards. For example, with a .300 RUM, it is just past 700 yards.

Apparently you are wind chalenged

JWP:

On the contrary, when I shot competitively I was beaten only twice. No one can hit a ten inch target 90% of the time with the first shot when bullet drift is 4 inches in a ONE mph wind. Can you? If so, you are close enough for me to come and see it.

In a few weeks I will be in Chandler working get in touch with me then. 4"of horizontal dispersion is not much in relationship to the killzone of a deer

JWP:

Too bad the desert is closed to shooting (high fire danger) or we could go out. I think 4 inches is way too much, simply because a 1/2 moa rifle will shoot four inch groups at 800 yards. That means half the bullets are already to one side of the center point of aim. Drifting the whole group by 4 inches means some of those bullets will be blown out of the vital area if you misestimate the wind by one mph.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
JWP:

Too bad the desert is closed to shooting (high fire danger) or we could go out. I think 4 inches is way too much, simply because a 1/2 moa rifle will shoot four inch groups at 800 yards. That means half the bullets are already to one side of the center point of aim. Drifting the whole group by 4 inches means some of those bullets will be blown out of the vital area if you misestimate the wind by one mph.

A 4" group means that all hite are within 2" of aim point.Now pretend that a Deer is facing to your right broad side and the win is blowing right to left inother words the Deer is facing into the wind.Now by aim at the front shoulder with no wind correction and your bullet is moved by the wind 4" plus 2 more = dead

This thread and other like it do nothing but hurt the sport we Love we nedd to suport other hunters nomatter what legal method of hunting they choose to particiapate in.
When a gun hunter chritizes a bow hunter, a hand gun hunter, a black powder hunter, a spear hunter, a long range hunter, or even some one who hunts with a 45-70

I think we are playing in t the hand of the Anti hunting crowd.
Dr B

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
JWP:

Too bad the desert is closed to shooting (high fire danger) or we could go out. I think 4 inches is way too much, simply because a 1/2 moa rifle will shoot four inch groups at 800 yards. That means half the bullets are already to one side of the center point of aim. Drifting the whole group by 4 inches means some of those bullets will be blown out of the vital area if you misestimate the wind by one mph.

A 4" group means that all hite are within 2" of aim point.Now pretend that a Deer is facing to your right broad side and the win is blowing right to left inother words the Deer is facing into the wind.Now by aim at the front shoulder with no wind correction and your bullet is moved by the wind 4" plus 2 more = dead

If you believe the vital area is 12 inches wide (6 inches on either side of the center of aim) you correct. If it is only 10 inches, some of those bullets are going to miss. But assuming the target is 12 inches wide, let's look at this 1000 yard shot everyone seems to salivate over..

Rifle shoots 1/2 moa, meaning the every bullet hits within 2.5 inches of aim. We shoot a .338 300 SMK at 3000 fps. That bullet drifts 3.85 inches per mile of wind speed. 2.5 plus 3.85 equals 6.35 inches. At some point it becomes physically impossible to hit that target with the first shot 90 percent of the time.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
JWP:

Too bad the desert is closed to shooting (high fire danger) or we could go out. I think 4 inches is way too much, simply because a 1/2 moa rifle will shoot four inch groups at 800 yards. That means half the bullets are already to one side of the center point of aim. Drifting the whole group by 4 inches means some of those bullets will be blown out of the vital area if you misestimate the wind by one mph.

A 4" group means that all hite are within 2" of aim point.Now pretend that a Deer is facing to your right broad side and the win is blowing right to left inother words the Deer is facing into the wind.Now by aim at the front shoulder with no wind correction and your bullet is moved by the wind 4" plus 2 more = dead

If you believe the vital area is 12 inches wide (6 inches on either side of the center of aim) you correct. If it is only 10 inches, some of those bullets are going to miss. But assuming the target is 12 inches wide, let's look at this 1000 yard shot everyone seems to salivate over..

Rifle shoots 1/2 moa, meaning the every bullet hits within 2.5 inches of aim. We shoot a .338 300 SMK at 3000 fps. That bullet drifts 3.85 inches per mile of wind speed. 2.5 plus 3.85 equals 6.35 inches. At some point it becomes physically impossible to hit that target with the first shot 90 percent of the time.

Concentrate now no where did I say 6" either side of point of aim.

JWP:

Not sure what you mean here...

A four inch group at 800 yards means the bullet hits up to 2 inches to the left or up to two inches to the right. Take the 2 inch bullet to the left, add four inches of wind drift, and you are 6 inches from center.

That is correct and that is without any wind correction with correction you can narrow this down

I didn't see any "right" answer so I didn't vote. When I hunt I put no particular significance to distance. I look at the situation; have a quick little discussion with myself to determine whether I can make that shot, then pull or pass. I'm realistic. I'm not trying to create a campfire story about some miracle shot I made.

When I started hunting I thought anything much over 200 was beyond my skills. Now my confidence level takes a dive at about 375 yards. At 400 I'm having another discussion with myself about how to reduce that distance. If it can't be done I enjoy the moment and just watch the animal.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
That is correct and that is without any wind correction with correction you can narrow this down

JWP:

My point is that no one can estimate wind without error. Maybe it is 2 mph or 1 mph; the point is, there is some error, and that alone rules out shots over a certain range.

quote:

This thread and other like it do nothing but hurt the sport we Love we nedd to suport other hunters nomatter what legal method of hunting they choose to particiapate in.

Shooting from standing when a rest is available, shooting at game with a rifle "the gunsmith boresighted so it must be pretty close", using three different bullet weights in the same magazine, "spray & pray", and taking shots beyond our skill level are all legal. We have an obligation to influence the hunting practices of our peers in the interest of our mutual and continued enjoyment of the sport. Every time we set a poor example in the eyes of the non-hunting majority who make the rules we give the antis an assist.

PS In the context of this thread and the original survey question I'm still looking forward to hearing from the hunter who can't get within 1500, 1000, or even 750 yards of his big game trophy.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
That is correct and that is without any wind correction with correction you can narrow this down

JWP:

My point is that no one can estimate wind without error. Maybe it is 2 mph or 1 mph; the point is, there is some error, and that alone rules out shots over a certain range.

I agree. My point is that using the theoretical 4" of wind drift that in theoretical terms with no wind correction and assuming a 2"error either side of aim point and 4" of wind drift = a total error of 6" one direction and 2" the other direction and theorecticaly is possiable.

With all of that being said and all of the thought that this thread has accomplised, the person doing the shooting must decide if he can make the shot and that distance is not the only determing factor.2 years ago I was so winded that I was unable to attempt a shot of less than 100 yards on the best bull Elk that I have ever seen while hunting.I never pulled the trigger because I was not sure that I could cleanly take the animal under the conditons.Other times I have taken game at Extremely long range very cleanly and confidently.Each must decide where his abilty starts and stops and trying to decide by distance alone is in correct.

What happens when you are 500 yards from your deer, he takes a step as you pull the trigger and you now have a cripple you have to find and finish. You start walking and 250 yards into it with no landmarks or spot of reference you realize it's almost hopeless. But you walk 500 or was it 465 yards or was it 510 yards? You look for a blood track, maybe a drop of blood here and there but where?

I don't go for this whole topic since I always wonder how I'd feel if I'd missed the shot and had to deal with finding the animal.

The book "Beyond Fair Chase - The Ethic and Tradition of Hunting" by Jim Posewitz covers this topic well and is a must read.

quote:

What happens when you are 500 yards from your deer, he takes a step as you pull the trigger and you now have a cripple you have to find and finish. You start walking and 250 yards into it with no landmarks or spot of reference you realize it's almost hopeless. But you walk 500 or was it 465 yards or was it 510 yards? You look for a blood track, maybe a drop of blood here and there but where?

Of course the same thing can happen to someone shooting at 100 yards.That behind the shoulder shot just became a gut shot.As for the distance,I use a laser rangefinder,So I know exactly how far off the animal was.

My take on this, is that inexperienced hunters/shooters read this stuff, run out and buy a wonder gun/scope combination and then run out and start taking shots that they have no business trying to make.

Not trying to hijack this topic, but long range shooting, and having every animal shot at drop dead right there, are two topics that spread more mis-information than is really necessary.

I have made some long shots, or to me they were long, I have also dropped animals in their tracks, but I have had more run when hit, than fall.

As yardage increases, an animals reaction to even a good hit will be different, than if hit at closer range. I worry about folks that take a shot that is beyong their abilities, and when the game takes off, with no apparent signs of a hit, they chalk it up as a miss and don't even go to where the animal was standing to look for blood.