stubble -



i've read enough of your posts to believe that you have decent ethics. if you want to combine those ethics with some skill at shooting running game or taking longer-than-"normal" shots at game, then that's alright. not that you need my approval or anything, what i mean is that i trust that you let your ethics guide your decisions, and that you take the time to develop the skills we are talking about.



on the other side of the coin that is this debate, however, are the yahoos who just want to fling bullets around like thunderbolts from zeus. we both know the type, and it is THAT type which most of us do the complaining about. it's not a question of can or can't it is a question of should or shouldn't.

IF EVERYONE could kill cleanly with the one well aimed shot, they wouldn't sell so many BARs, 742s or SKSs.
nothing like hearing those five shots in five seconds while out in the woods just before it gets to REAL shooting light.

WHEN I head out into the wooods tomorrow for the Mich openner, I will be armed with my 2000yd capable first production run BLR in .358Win with a Leupold 1 1/2 - 5X and loaded with the Speer 250gr. Figure I won't waste any shots on anything in my township, no sense not having a challenge.

Was thinking about getting a Wisconsin license so I can shoot over Lake Michigan so I can get some longer shooting.

"
But... Having said that I still vehemently support their right to hunt. We need all the hunters we can get and I try to help them with their guns and finding their game.

Those of us that sit in judgement of the "casual hunter" that wounds a lot of game run the great risk of helping to put an end to us all having hunting priviledges... <sigh>

I say help them sight in their rifles, help them find their game and encourage them to be better hunters, while being VERY careful to not chase them away from hunting."

You finally said something with which I can agree. Pretty sensitive observations for such a macho, hairy-chested knuckle dragger.
Many (but not enough) shooting clubs with private ranges have free "sighting in" days. When their gates are open and they have experienced shooters there to help folks with the very problems we have all laughed at in these threads. Not everyone had a Pop that was a outdoorsman and could pass the information (and mis-information) along. Not everyone was born knowing how to mount a scope nor load a rifle.
If Home Depot can hold clinics showing you how to change a toilet; if Yamaha can hold classes showing you how to ride a four wheeler, why can't Walmart sponser a simple one hour or so class on how to do some of the fundemental stuff needed when you buy a gun?

Yep... I finally was able crystalize what my message should'a been all along. I've been on the defensive and haven't been able to explain much.



Perfect example of how emotional an issue this is.? Look at the "Girle Man" thread I started.



Noone seems to disagree with my policy. But the use of the girlie man term, even if I haven't directed it at ANYONE in particular, seems to have touched a sensitive spot in some that might be a little more in touch with their feminine side than they're willing to admit...



$bob$

I know several hunters that dont shoot a lot, but spend a lot of time in the woods studying. That is what makes a hunter, not how much barrel they wear out at the range or how much you pay a guide to point out an animal for you to shoot at. I have shot Deer and Elk at ranges from 280 to 375 yards, using "normal" rifles i.e. .30-06, 7 rem mag, 270 and have never lost an animal. I have no need for a 300RUM or WSM and would rather have superior hunting skills than "benchrest skills". I shoot maybe four to five times a year and handload my own bullets, twice to the range to test handloads and sight in, then three or four times in the field shooting in field type condtions.



My best advice to anyone wanting to shoot long range is to become familiar with one particular rifle and use it all the time. Spend time in the real situatioon shooting and not at the range, it will make you a better hunter rather than a better shooter. Get yourself and good laser range finder and know your bullet, and even more important know your game. That is the key to long range success.



One of my favorite lines is "I got me a new 3000 SO and SO and it shoots a Blankety Blank grain bullet at 5000 fps, I can kill them up to 1/4 mile away" These guys are usually sucky shots and even suckier hunters.

I"ll let the shooters argue how far is far. As a hunter I want to know how close is close?

How close is close. That sounds like a good direction for this now rather contentious thread to take. I took a deer at 36 yards, an elk at 32, and a bear at 12 paces with my bow this year. My rifle elk was at about eighty. My closest shot ever was a cow elk taken at 8 paces. She came walking up a trail about 2 feet from me on the opposite side of a big tree I was sitting up against. When she noticed me she jumped right out in front of me and stood there frozen.

MY CLOSEST shot at a deer was about 30 years ago. was when the deer was jumping OVER me and I was shooting UP at it with my issue Model 19 .357. I was working on gutting out a nice little buck that was in the heavy growth at the bottom of a gully. There was a trail through it and it was thick...
Heard the deer coming before I saw it and I got turned and actually was falling onto my back to get out of it's way as it was blazing down this trail, If I had stayed upright there would have been a collision. It dropped about 100yds further down the trail.

That same hunting season one of the guys I was hunting with also shot one coming at him in self defense(or it just didn't see him in the panic) at about 20 feet with a .45. he popped it twice with the .45 then jumped to the side as it passed him and fell over dead about 6 feet away.

I shot Dall sheep at 15 yards after stalking him for four hours. Circled the backside of the mountian he was on, popped over a ridge near the top, and there he was.

Well, I guess I'm rather boring because a great deal of my deer were all shot with a bow, and most were 10-20 yards at best. However, this year, I have killed 3 does while bowhunting from the ground...8,9, and 11 yards.

My closest rifle kill was a spike in northern Alabama 2 minutes after legal shooting light. I was sitting on the ground up against a flat rock with my feet propped on a big fallen tree, a natural recliner, I could here a deer coming my way quartering up the slope and it stopped right on the other side of a huge oak. That is when I lifted my rifle and waited for it to keep walking but it heard my swivels. It eventually took 2 more steps and all I could see was his head and the first 8-10 inches of his neck. I put the 140 grain ballisitic tip into his white throat patch. The exit hole was about the size of a quarter. 6 yards.

One hour later, shot a doe at 16 yards as she was coming up the same trail but she spotted him and stopped, shot was quartering to me. I put the bullet right between her legs and it exited out the offside lung. She ran about 10 yards and rolled. Good thing I was dragging them downhill.

Cobrd, Sounds like you know how to, and enjoy your hunting. Accurate shooting is , we all agree, a wonderful sport but it is not hunting. Too many people unfortunately confuse things that have to do with hunting, with hunting.

458,

I like your post, it is refreshing to know that someone else feels the same. I know a competitive benchrest shooter that is a terrible hunter. No amount of shooting or expensive gadgets can make-up for a lack of hunting skills.

Hot topic that crops up on every chat line.

My view strong personal view is that long range shooting at big game, by a practised shot with top rate equipment starts at 200 yards and should end at 400 yards, under ideal conditions only, such as no wind and good light. REGARDLESS OF SELF PERCEIVED SHOOTING ABILITIES. Why?????

I like to present a strong separation between military sniping and HUNTING.

I have no problem with gut or limb shooting a terrorist or insurgents at long range by highly trained and practiced snipers. Here any hit is a good hit. Retrieval of a wounded or dying terrorist is usefull for confirmed body count or if needed for intelligence, but not always absolutely essential.

I see hunting differently. Here a clean swift kill is essential, as is the retrieval of the game shot for trophy and consumption. ANYTHING ELSE IS NOT AN OPTION.

We must reduce as much as possible variables we can not control.

I have done a modest amount of 500-700 meter shooting with my .308 Win. and .300 Win Mag.

Here are the problems with it for hunting as I see it.



Bullet expansion. At extended ranges bullet expansion is iffy or non-existent.Meaning even a well hit animal can get easily lost.



It is one thing to shoot from a bench on a well manecured range with known distances and watching wind flags, waiting for the right moment to sqeeze the trigger with just the right amount of correction. If you did not do it right it is just a miss.



Now go to the hunting fields. Yes you can laser distances with our Leica or Bushnells approximately on bush clumps or hills or rocks. None of them allows you to laser a deer at 500 yards and up. A 25 yard mis-estimation is at best a miss or often a broken leg.

We all know how tough it is to read wind at extended ranges.

Add the lack of windflags besides the targets and you are throwing in a major " hail Mary".



Temperature and rest in the hunting field.

Making 500-600 shots on a cold day prone in the short grass, over a rock pile or from crossed sticks?

I still have to see the guy who can pull that one off with consistent accuracy to cleanly kill deer on a good chilly November day.



Retrieval of wounded game????

Come on now, you think you can find the exact spot where you gut shot or broke a deer leg at 500-700 meters????

Unless there is a pack of snow to find blood or wide open short grass prairie where you can visually spot a wounded animal you will have written off another "hit"animal.

No guys, big game animals are not terrorists or insurgents that can be plinked at for gratification of a good shot or to "take him out of action".

For that we got gophers, crows, ground hogs and prairie dogs or paper targets.



A big game animal deserves to be treated a lot better then terrorists. Hunt him and kill him cleanly. Enjoy the experience and savour the meat, mount the trophy.

Do not get me wrong. I understand the gratification of a good shot at long range. Also, in addition, learn to savour the close fast shot on an elk or deer. The "in your face" type of hunting where you have to watch your scent drift and foot step. The outwitting a game animal on its own ground.

You may find it so much more personal and exciting, and difficult. Yes a long shot on deer @ 300-400 yards is exciting too, but not as "personal".

Also how many of us have the training of highly experienced military snipers? A very, very few of us on this chat line.

So few that they could be counted on three fingers may be?

I am worried in particular about the untrained "wannabees" amongst us.

Reading some of these windbags discussing long range hunting bring back memories of the Gilligans Island show where the big game hunter is bored with ordinary hunting and decides to hunt Gilligan. I think to much testosterone and too much imagination is behind some of this long ranger blather.

Salixco,
I may not have expressed myself clearly or adequately. I referred to wannabees as wannabee military snipers, not wannabee hunters. With highly trained, I meant to highly trained military snipers with a lot of field experience, who are but a very few of us. Sorry for the confusion.
I fully agree with all your comments.

For me with a bow it would be 60 yards and with a rifle over 300 yards.

I use a rangefinder religiously.

Out to 300 yards I know I really don't have to hold over much with a 6inch drop.

458- You wrote "as a hunter you want to know how close is close". Well...

Closest shot/kill with a rifle- point blank

closest shot/kill with a pistol- point blank

closest shot/kill with a muzzleloader- point blank

closest shot/kill with a bow- point blank

closest kill with a spear- point blank

closest kill with a knife well you guessed it point blank is that close enough

UltraMag. Sounds like you know how close close is. Who need UltraMags?