I wasnt but I guess i'll chime in again

Wstrnhuntr- Heck buddy im both 1-2, I shoot AT LEAST three times weekly at 500 yds or more but would prefer a point blank shot if possible then i dont have to break out all my fancy gizmos

I think alot of people who disagree with the long range shooting of game come up with generally the same thoughts so I feel they fail to CAREFULLY read what was written or meant. Wind, pass the shot up, steady position, get closer, wounded/loss of game, unethical and the list goes on. AGAIN I can only speak for myself but I truly feel that those who do shoot game at long range like myself follow the same ethical rules as all RESPONSIBLE hunters. Trust me anyone worth his salt is not ignorant of such BASIC things as wind speed its one of the fundamentals of shooting so to say "if the wind speed is x mph your bullet moves x amount of inches at x amount of yds while it may be true it seems like some people think that we dont know this etc.

Pass up the shot and get closer? LISTEN HERE GANG IF ITS POSSIBLE TO GET CLOSER TO THE GAME I GET CLOSER I CAN TRULY SAY THIS WHICH MAY BE TRUE FOR OTHERS AS WELL IVE PASSED UP MORE LONG SHOTS THAN IVE TAKEN. AGAIN I DONT SHOOT A DEER, ELK, KUDU ETC AT 500 YDS JUST BECAUSE I CAN I SHOOT BECAUSE AT TIMES IT MAY NOT BE POSSIBLE TO GET CLOSER IF YOU READ MY FIRST POST OF THE RUSA IN AUSTRALIA THATS A GOOD EXAMPLE. I SHOOT BECAUSE I PREPARED MYSELF OVER THE YEARS TO DO SO I KNOW MY LIMITATIONS AND IF THE SHOT AINT GOOD I DONT TAKE IT SIMPLE AS THAT BUT I KNOW I CAN IF THE CONDITIONS ARE IN MY FAVOR.

Wounded/Loss Animals- I can honestly say (knock on wood) that in the past 20 years or so of shooting game at long distance I personally have not lost a game animal the farthest I had an animal go after being shot was roughly 20 ft. Most stay right there.

Can someone explain to me what is so unethical about taking game animals cleamly and humanely at extended range as compared to taking game at close range? Hell ive personally seen more game lost and wounded when shot under 200 yds than at long range. Ive helped alot of hunters track down game that was shot at 200 yds or less.

Wstrnhuntr- I will have to disagree with you on one point though I believe that there are more than 10 people on this forum who put in the the amount of time it takes to be proficient at long range hunting. But I TOTALLY agree with you about #3 "shooters" I call this group the shooters because thats exactly what they do they just go out there and shoot at game without regard PERIOD and thems the jerkoffs that in my book should NEVER be called a "HUNTER".

SAFE AND HAPPY HUNTIN' TO ALL.....

More crap. Sure with my 270 I can splatter prairie dogs most of the time oout past 400 yards but they are not elk. I rarely take a shot at mule deer farther than 300 yards but the units I seem to get drawn for in Wyoming to hunt elk are rocky, open with stiff vegetation and a wind that has no constant velocity or direction that can be as high as 50 miles an hour. This wind can be heading uphill or downhill and can cause wind drift to be in excess of four feet. Time of flight is around half a second using a 3000 fps velocity to get to 400 yards, add another half a second to the time starting when you decide to pull the trigger and the rifle actually fires. A game animal can move more than a foot or so easily in a second. Another question, what is this false pride you guys seem so happy with trying to justify long range shooting? It is a much better thing to be man enough to pass the long shots and try to get closer than to just sit down and take an unreasonably long shot.

I've read several posts suggesting that shots over 300, and sometimes just 200 yards, are "sniping" and unethical. So, just how far are we shooting? How far could we be shooting, and just what is long range to you? Anyone out there using laser rangefinders, anemometers, and drop charts?

My def. of long range is:
Any distance beyond where you have less than a 95% confidance level that your first round will impact within 3" of where you intended it to. This distance can, and will, vary from shot to shot with the shooter/weapon/weather/shooting position etc. It can vary from under 5yd to more than 1500yd, all variables considered.
Only YOU can determine what is "to far" for YOU.

I think TG nailed it there. Try these for reasonable discussion about LONG range shooting:
http://www.wildcatshooting.com/forum/
http://www.long-range.com/forums/index.php?
http://artactical.com/6/ubb.x?a=cfrm&s=692600194

Any distance where you don't KNOW, from practice, where the POI will be, taking into account wind, rifle hold and other circumstances.

I consider 300 yds. or better to be long-range under field conditions. But I know, all the pulp-fiction heros will come out of the woodwork and declare with casual ablob that anything under 500 yds. represents close-range shooting, and these lesser distances are duck soup for their astounding equipment and tactical skills.

Call be a wimp, but I avoid long shots if at all possible, and I'm a lot happier if I can stalk to within 200 yds. Personally, I don't see any glory in long-range shooting.

Jack O'Connor said it best: "Distances tend to increase after they've been processed through a typewriter."

AD

I guess that is why Jack took long shots on a regular basics.

If you really read O'Connor, you of course will see references to certain long-range episodes, but these were not rountine, and Jack was not an advocate of long-range shooting. I site O'Connor because his experience, observation, and attitude about long-range shooting very closely match my own.

I'm a product of the Northwest and Southwest, and I've had extended-range opportunities myself, particulalrly with mule deer, pronghorn, and Coues deer. My longest shot was on a Coues deer at over 500 yds., and I've killed a couple of pronghorn and a couple of mule deer at about 400 yds. But I'm still not caught up in the romance of long-range shooting, and I'll avoid it if at all possible.

No matter where I've hunted in the world, long shots have been rare and I've done everything I can to keep it that way. The vast, vast majority of animals I've taken have been at about 200 yds. or less.

AD

SSSOOOO many variables in that one,

skill of the shooter,

the practice the shooter has with THAT piece of equipment

the equipment itself,

the amount of LONG shooting practice the shooter has had with that equipment

does the experience in practice match up with the field conditions of the shot,

does the shooter practice for all types of field shots or just "rested" shots,

and on and on and on....



but

it basically gets down to what the shooter has practiced and is the equipment up to it also.

I am fortunate to have a 1000yard range 6 miles from my home. I shoot disatnce A LOT. I shoot the same load I hunt with out to 1000 yards in my .340Wby. I have fired many 8-9" groups at 1000 yards with my .340 using the Sierra GameKing 250gr. If I plink a caribou out to 400-500 yards that is not a long shot. Even though I am practiced at 1000yds, If I took my Marlin guide gun in 45-70 and tried the same shot, that would be a tremendously long and unpracticed shot and highly unethical shot. Although, I have friends who would take their 45-70s and have no hesitation, and hit because they practice and compete with them out to 1000yds.

One mans outlandish shot is another man's ho-hum shot.



Last year I took 2 caribou both over 400 yds, one lasered at 425 and the other at 475 or 485, don't remember exactly now, BUT it was offhand shooting with a sling while squated in the snow. No rest available. I practice shooting out of a sling... alot. both were dropped where they stood. A bench shooter may not be able to do that. A practiced sling shooter can. the equipment was the same .340 I practice with for all my long shooting. To the "get closer" crowd, I just can't walk down a 'boo in 3' of snow and I don't know of many who can, and, somethimes you have to take them when and where you find them.



Personally, I would have much preferred shots under 100yds, much less further to drag, or walk or work on them. I would alsways rather have the "chip shot" then have the long drive, but I also don't believe you should pass on shots you know you can make just because it seems "too long" to others.



The only limitation to shooting range would be the shooter and the equipment.

Very interesting and well thought-out responses. I am in agreement with the general tone of this thread. I practice, using laser rangefinder, anemometer, and drop charts, out beyond 500 yards. Most of my shots at big-game are within 200 yards, but with favorable conditions, using bipod and rangefinder, I feel confident out to 500 yards with my .300, and am currently shooting 1/2 moa, or better, out to 650 yards with my 22-250. Again, that is in favorable conditions. For a number of years I was a licensed outfitter, and have guided, off and on, for 26 years. My observation has been that for most hunters 200 yards is a pretty long shot.

as per mr. jack o'connor, here are some "rules" for long-range hunting. i believe that they can be agreed on by most of us here, even the long-range hunters!

------------------------------------------------------------

a long-range shot should never be taken if there is a reasonable chance of getting closer.

a long-range shot should never be taken if the rifleman feels doubtful of his ability to make a good, solid, well-placed hit.

a long-range shot should never be taken if the hunter cannot get into a solid position - prone with a sling, from a rest, etc.

a long-range shot should never be taken at any dangerous animal - a brown, grizzly or polar bear, a lion, a tiger, a leopard, a cape buffalo.

a long-range shot should never be taken at an unwounded, running animal.

a long-range shot should never be taken if the animal shot at can get out of sight so quickly that it would be difficult to ascertain the effect of the shot.

a long-range shot should not be taken if the range is so great that a hold on top of the shoulders will not drop a bullet into the chest cavity.

these rules may seem ultra conservative to many, and i must admit that there have been times when i did not follow them myself. however, the more i hunt and the more i see others shoot the more convinced i am that they are wise and sensible rules and if they were universally adopted the number of game animals that get away wounded to suffer and die would be greatly reduced.

------------------------------------------------------------

RoNz comments>>> the question then remains, what defines a long-range shot on a game animal?

i believe that each hunter has to make an honest evaluation of his own abilities (not the rifle's) and let his moral and ethical judgement guide his choice when the game is sighted.

This is always an interesting question to say the least and I think most everyone so far has answered accurately and fairly. I have now witnessed and trained hundreds of would be rifleman from military ranges to the local ranges and for the average shooter UNDER HUNTING (or fighting) CONDITIONS 200 yds is a long way.There is considerable differences betwen hitting a target (military) and killing a target (hunting). In many aspects hitting (wounding) a target in a military situation is acceptable but not so in hunting. Too many hunters believe that skill is acheived with bigger,faster calibers. In my humble view nothing can be further from the truth. There are a few who really can hit a six inch kill zone 95% of the time at 400yds (probably 300) but in my 60yrs of life I've seen very few.In my experience the eastern woods ranges are commonly very much over estimated and conversely in the wide open spaces commonly underestimated but exaggerated in discussion.I find that 300 yds is about as far as I want to shoot at big game and much prefer under 200yds.

JJHACK made a good comment about long range shooting, which I will paraphrase here.

"There are about 1000 things that can happen when shooting at game past 300 yards and only one of them is good."

I personally agree with it as it jives with my experience and marksmanship level.

But having said that, there are some people who know how to use target turrets and laser range finders to dial in the precise angular changes necessary so they don't have to rely on Kentucky windage, know their exact bullet trajectory w-a-y out yonder from experience and not from a table, and have the trigger time to put the bullet where it is supposed to go.

Still - staple a paper plate onto a surveyor stake and put it out at 300 yards. Walk quickly out and very quickly back, you might even jog a bit, while wearing your hunting clothes and normal weight pack or whatever gear you take with you. When you get back to teh firing line immediately get into a shooting position and see how teeny tiny that 8" disc really is when you're trying to steady your crosshairs on it.

To each his own, but I'm with Allen on this one. Splatting a milk jug at 1000 yards on the first shot is pretty cool and a testament to the quality of your equipment and marksmanship. Whacking a living animal at 100 yards after sneaking in from 1000 is a testament to your hunting ability. The hunt is the challenge, when time comes for the kill it should be a foregone conclusion. Just MHO.

I pretty much used to set my limit from 250-300 yards and nowadays closer to 200 yards. Fact of the matter is as I get older between the job and eyesight I don't get the chance to practice as much as I would like to. That's my .02.

It depends. I have the luxury of hunting where deer are pests, on par with rats, in the landowner's eyes. I have used the 264WM to shoot does at over 400 yards, but anything over 200 is a long poke for me. I have backed off quite a bit over the last few years as far as distance is concerned. I started hunting more and shooting less. I have trophys on the wall, so that is not a motivator any longer. I more enjoy the company of my daughter and my friends.

If someone has the right equipment and the right practice, long can be a LONG way.

Interesting thread. In my opinion if you are not "holding on hair",it's long range for the particular setup being used.

PS, most of the folks that shoot long range are holding on hair. Whether you use a laser or Big Eyes to find range, the next step is to crank those clicks. Some use hand held ballistic computers as well, and wind meters, and spotters, and, and , and , I wouldn't want some of them shooting at me from a mile.

I agree with the sentiments expressed by all. Some are comfy at 300 yards, some less or more. Long range intrigues the hell out of me from purely a technical standpoint. It is ballistic science refined to high degrees. That said, I'm a still hunter by nature and choice, and sometimes a club would work for me. Sometimes not. I have guns that cover a lot of range at the moment, but probably about 500 yards would be a long shot for me on varmints. I would not be equipped for that range on big game, and may never be.

I agree with LAWCOP on the issue I believe as many have said that IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE SHOOTER AND HIS EQUIPMENT ALONG WITH PRACTICE!!!. Having said that I believe that habitat has a role to play as well some people may hunt in thick areas where 100 yds is a long shot whereas others hunt in wide open areas where shots can be out past 500 yds.

We shoot out to 500 yds every week so our rifles are all dialed in to this and further ranges and because we PRACTICE ALOT it gives us the confidence to know that we can put the bullet where it needs to be at these ranges, does this mean we take a 500 yd shot just because we can the answer is NO! if we can get closer or if the animal is heading in our direction etc. you can bet your last penny we'll get closer BUT, sometimes its just not possible to do such things and thats where the PRACTICE and CONFIDENCE comes in.

And Hunters save up ALOT of money to hunt around the world and for some its a dream hunt once-in-a-lifetime oppurtunity. Several years ago a group of us went to Australia I was bummed because I really wanted a Rusa stag but it seemed like it just wasnt going to happen, Then on the evening of the last day as we were heading back to camp the guide spotted a nice stag under some tree's it was wide open between us and the stag no cover whatsoever we were running out of time and daylight so got the rifle got out setup ranged him at 465 yds placed the correct mil-dot on his chest and he dropped at the shot and I had my stag. I made this shot because I was perpared to, someone who wasnt prepared would probably been different. This year in Africa a hunter in camp with us didnt get an animal he wanted because he wasnt prepared to shoot beyond 200 yds which was HIS limit and I totally respect that than someone not prepared takes the shot anyway and wounds or loses the animal. We stalked a Hartebeest for days and miles but just couldnt get any closer than 300 yds he was very smart so we ended up taking him at a ranged 450 yds with one-shot dropped in his tracks again because we were prepared to.

All-in-all the bottom line is its up to the individual hunter him/herself to KNOW THIER RANGE LIMIT and adhere to it. Its an individual choice.

For me in moosehunt 100-120 can be kept max shooting distance.
Assuming that a hunter is standing in rough terrain and the target is mooving.
My aiming devices are set on 100yds.
I can do 200-300yds but the conditions and situation must be wery special before I start to do that.

Elias

Interesting thread.Long range shooting or "Would you take the shot" is up to each individual and there expertice and of course the weapon in use for the game intended.Three years ago I passed on a 413 yard shot(Lazered) on three Bulls with lots of Cows but I went back in the summer and set up a target in the same place-Slightly downhill(Maybe a 33% grade)with an empty freezer box and a 10 inch kill zone marked in florescent orange and my 300 Mag with 200 grain High Energy Noslers.Every shot hit the kill zone without any wind.

Would I take the shot now....Yes...As I have practiced it in the same conditions repeatedly even though they looked like Deer at 9X in my scope.But I didn't then because I was not totally sure and I know the .300 Mag has over 2,000 fpe and 2200 fps.More than enough to do the job if I do mine.

Good luck..........Jayco.

I hunt the mountains and agricultural fields where my shots average around 200 yards.I have however killed a fair number of animals at over 300 yards and a few at over 400 yards with the farthest lasered at 480 yards.I use a leica 1200 yard rangefinder to take the guessing out of range estimation.I set my personal shooting limits based on the wind and on the availability of a solid rest.I practise regularly all summer out to 500 yards at our local range.

Well, I will toss out one I have espoused for a while: when a one mph wind blows a bullet more than 5 inches it is too far. I like the 95% rule, but if you toss in the wind rule above, 1500 yards is impossible - there aren't any cartridges that drift less than 5 inches in a 1mph wind, which is barely detectable.

Of course you need a rangefinder, but if your rangefinder can't tell the difference between a deer and a rock 10 yards behind, then you are too far away.

I left my Geovid home last weekend and took my Leica 800. Couldn't measure crap in the bright AZ sunlight and I passed on a shot I may have taken had I known the range. But I didn't so I passed.

I guess my favorite rule is if you haven't practiced at the range for which you intend to shoot, then you don't have much business shooting. So if you don't have a 400 yard range, find one or don't shoot that far.

Cobrad,

My $0.02: long range is different for each shooter/hunter. Some folks can't hit from any range over 30 yards. Charges of unethical sniping are best left to each person and their conscience! I don't shoot at anything over 300 yards anymore. I used to be so consumed with killing that I'd shoot out to 500 yards or so. Now, if I can't get closer I hold my fire....but that's for me. My observations have been that over 200 yards is difficult for most nimrods from field positions...but maybe I've just seen a bunch of poor hunters! I have watched guys blaze away at deer across a canyon where the range had to be over half a mile. They had to return to their pickup to get another box of shells and couldn't understand why they weren't connecting. They thought the "aught six" was "flat" out to at least 800 yards! Fortunately, I was hidden from their view 20 yards below them on the hill. They didn't even know they were shooting at does! Long range also is dependent on conditions like wind, rain, snow, obstacles, etc.....maybe this was 3 or 4 cents worth.

On a good day, long range could be 350 yards. Other times, it could be as close as 80 yards. Sometimes I control the wobble better than other times.

Long Range as defined by me is that range were the bullet on either a 100 yard zero or a 200 yard zero, strikes 6 inches below the line of sight. So my my reasoning you are talking 300 yards for a 270 and 130 gr bullets, 150 yards for a .30-30 and 170 gr bullets. For slug shooters in places where you have to use shotguns, 100 to 125 yards is about all she wrote on that one. For my Longbow, 30 yards on the outside 15 to 20 yards is where I will take a shot. Are there guys that can shoot past 300 yards and make good killing hits, yes there are, also rifles and sights to do it too. While I have made a few shots pass 350 or so yards, most of my shots have come under 200. So even with the fastest of fast cartridges, you are looking at bullets being down 6 inches at 350 to 375 yards with any kind of reasonable zero. 400 yards is a long ways in the field.

Everyone's writing about long shots. How about finding the animal after you shoot it? Where is that in all this blather about shooting "animals" at long range. You're looking over a swamp from a hillside. You take the shot at 400 yards and walk down looking for it. After 20 feet everything looks the same as it did 15 feet in.

Do some thinking about finding the animals you are shooting. Look through all this and find the discussion about finding the prey.

I get the feeling everyone is writing about shooting over pastures, fields, tundra or mountain to mountain. I question finding the game once it's shot

And don't come to the conclusion that people that don't do long shots don't know how. High power is 600 yds, I shoot high power. I bet there are more than just me that know how but don't

It depends on the rifle and the shooter and varies with conditions.
For the last 2 years I've hunted on a large Elk lease in Colorado where over the several seasons about 50 hunters per year hunt.
We've had a number of shooters that couldn't hit a Elk broadside at 100yds. Several brought rifles that hadn't even been sighted in properly and were reluctant to go to the range to do so. Many insist that the only "Manly" way to shoot an animal is offhand and will proceed to miss several.
I've been lucky and knocked down 2 Elk with 2 shots at what most here would consider long range, 515 and 536yds (as measured by a Leica LRF 1200). I practice a lot, know the exact range to target and the trajectory of my ammuntion. I've found the TDS reticle to be a big help in long range shooting. I'll use a sling, bipod, tree or whatever is needed to get a steady shot.
I'm not claiming to be the best shot in the world but I know for a proven fact that I'm more likely to hit an Elk at 500yds than a lot of hunters are at 200. I feel that I'm as or more ethical of a hunter as the ones that take closer shots but are less prepared to make them than I am a longer shot. I'll always try and get as close as possible - most whitetails I've shot were under 100yds - but I'm also going to practice and prepare for a longer shot when needed...........DJ

Wind drift is a function of ballistic coeficient and velocity. At 400 yards , a bullet with a BC of.440 and a velocity of 3000 fps is moved 12.4 inches at 400 yards with a 10 mph crosswind so it appears you don't know enough to be shooting at 400 yards in the wind. I have many more powerful rifles than my .270.

T/C Nut, no you seem pretty reasonable the post just came after yours, aimed at DKing.

the toughest part about shooting in a wind greater than ten mph is not the wind drift itself, it is holding steady in that wind. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge that hasn't done much shooting in the wind.