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A man's got to know his limitations...  For those of us that know how to accuratly and reliably shoot a rifle beyond that magical 200yds, that seems to be where most hunters start to feel "challenged," it all seems like a silly argument.  For those of "them" that rarely if ever shoot at anything beyond paper at their community 100yd rifle range it is baffleing that anyone could possibly shoot an animal beyond 200yds.  Remember when they said noone would ever break the 4 minute mile? Remember when breaking the sound barrier was deemed impossible? Remember when a really fast car did a quarter mile in 10 seconds? Remember when a really accurate rifle could shoot MOA???  Well... With today's technology in bullets, rifles, scopes and shared internet knowledge, the equipment is certainly capable and the knowledge needed is readily available.  Also... Many of us on Accurate Reloading don't have to work 40 hours, raise a family, work on thier own cars, and paint their own houses due to advanced age and/or successful financial situations.  We have the free time to shoot several hours or even days at the range each week at varying and often LOOOOOOONG ranges.  Given these "luxuries" it's really no big deal to pop a deer at 500 or even more yards.  For those of you that can't comprehend that.... Well.... I feel sorry for you. Maybe some day you will understand. However your negative, "can't do" attitudes don't affect that FACT that some of us regularly shoot game at long ranges with boring regularity and are moving on to greater challenges.  For Long Range Believers ONLY!!! LDHunter (Long Distance Hunter) $bob$ | |||
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Quote: That statement confuses me. Why would someone that can hit a prairie dog at long range not be able to hit an elk at the same range with almost any long range capable rifle? It seems that the principals of shooting long range, once learned, can apply to almost any rifle, game, or situation. $bob$ | |||
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It appears to me there are two groups here, niether having a clue where the other is coming from. I never said anything about trigger-pulling skills or the quality of the equipment or whether someone can hit anything they try for. After all small-bore Palma is shot with .22s at 200 yards and high power silhouette is shot at 500 yds standing. Benchresting a rifle and shooting at the most minute of targets is possible and done, done all the time. But how many of the shooters here can find an animal if it's not hit and killed? Walking 400 yards, or more, towards a track laid down by a wounded animal and finding it probably as the sun is setting is not as easy as many people here believe. (Most Americans can't even walk 400 yards!) Some carry on about long-range hunting as if they are gods never, ever wounding an animal. I'd be happier if they were an Indian Pasha having his servants stake out a live tiger with ropes so he could shoot his trophy, at least that would be humane. Game animals are not prairie dogs that can be left to suffer while we go on to look for another long-range target to shoot at. | |||
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You practice your trigger pulling skills but do you practice your tracking and hunting skills? I'm on a rampage, I know, but boy I'm aggravated at the thought no one seems to consider the possible consequences of their "craft". | |||
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Quote: If it's not hit who cares? | |||
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Quote: I have little difficulty believing it's "no big deal" to you. In keeping with the rest of your condescending soliloquy, perhaps you could consider changing your moniker from "LDHunter" to "LDShooter". Given sufficient technology and talent you could remove yourself entirely from the proximity of your live "targets". Just imagine the pride of accomplishment. GV | |||
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Quote: Ted, It appears that you must spend a lot of time worrying about wounding an animal that you don't recover or perhaps that someone else might do it. This can very well happen with a mere 35yd shot or if the deer would happen to move just as one shoots.... Every year we get our deer hounds out several times to help find deer that were wounded with buckshot, arrows, and even 7mm Mag rifles. Many of these deer are eventually found and many are not. We don't agonize about it and I hope you don't either. There is no "waste" with deer in the piney woods where I hunt. The bears, coyotes and buzzards are always ready to help with disposal of carcasses and they gotta eat too.  I'd venture to say that most long distance hunters wound, and lose, less game than your average redneck with a thutty-thutty. And WAY, WAY less than 90% of bow hunters do. That's life in the piney woods. If you're squeemish about it then perhaps you should take up knitting. btw... I'm 53yrs old but in prime shape. I commonly walk 5-15 miles a day when scouting and can track very well. Almost all long range hunting done by me is done in mid-day on power line ROW and along old logging roads, with a lot of sand for tracking and I always pinpoint exactly where the deer is BEFORE I shoot because even if you get a bang flop it can be very hard to find a deer that just curls up and dies in the grass. $bob$ | |||
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Quote: Sir... You are obviously jealous and envious of my shooting and hunting abilities. I urge you to practice more... ROFLMAO!!!! It's hard not to be condescending when I encounter people that simply can't seem to believe that it's easy to put a bullet in a 10" circle at 500 yards. That's 2 MOA for those of you that are mathematically challenged. I just got off the phone with a friend of mine that regularly shoots deer in the HEAD at 200-350yds and I've witnessed it. He and I got a good laugh when I mentioned your obvious confusion. Thousands of high power shooters would find your ignorance amusing. Any heavy barreled 308 such as a Remington Varmint Synthetic with a run of the mill $100 scope can make the shot with ease and all it requires is a good stable front and rear rest and a shooter that takes the time to practice a few hours a week for most of the year. By the way... I like to get up close and personal too... Every year I get at least one wild hog with my 10mm pistols and regularly hunt with an Encore 308 pistol and revolvers. Long Distance hunting is just one more way of taking game among many and it's a great way to relax during the lunch break. $bob$ | |||
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Quote: On the contrary. Although a frequent mistake of the sniper set. As you go on......and on to explain. Your marksmanship as described is quite ordinary. Quote: I presume you meant that just as typed. Long Distance hunting is a great way to relax during the lunch break. You go, guy! GV | |||
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"On the contrary. Although a frequent mistake of the sniper set. As you go on......and on to explain. Your marksmanship as described is quite ordinary." Absolutely and exactly my point... I'm just an average or slightly better long distance shooter. It's really quite easy to do what I do. "I presume you meant that just as typed. Long Distance hunting is a great way to relax during the lunch break." Yep... We hunt deer with hounds, stalk them up, tree stand hunt, drive them, and sometimes just walk around trying to get lucky. When we get tired we sit at our shooting tables and get lost in conversations of past and future hunts and wait for something shootable to cross the power lines. It's all about hunting and enjoying ourselves. If we were subsistence hunters I imagine that we'd plant food plots and slaughter them from elevated box stands at close range. But since it's mostly for sport we try to make the experience challenging and exciting and always something different. If I missed a slam here it's just because I'm a pretty simple guy that likes to hunt and often miss the turn of the word or the innuendo... $bob$ | |||
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Do you eat the venison or use it for dog food? | |||
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After some thought, I think I've realized why this is such a hotly debated subject. There are two distinctly different points of view, from two different groups of hunters who, now read carefully, have two DIFFERENT GOALS in mind: Case in point: Last Sunday, I went deer hunting . I saw an 8 point buck, but did not shoot him. Why? Essentially, because when I saw him and knew that he was at a distance that was within my capabilities, the hunt was over, and a success at that. This is because I was out to hunt deer. On the other hand, if my goal were to shoot a deer, I likely would have thought the hunt a failure because I didn't get to shoot, or perhaps the range was "too short" . Also, if I were I a "long range" shooter/hunter, after killing a deer, my pals would likely ask first, "How far was the shot?" At 41 years of age, it has only been within the last few weeks that I finally realized why my Dad hasn't shot a deer in the last few years despite having many, many opportunities. You see, his measure of a successful hunt is not killing a deer, rather, it is having the opportunity to kill a deer. This is not to say that I hunt, but don't shoot. My family of 6 consumes about 4 deer per annum. With a bull elk in the deep-freeze, I doubt seriously I'll kill a deer, but, I'll probably have many hunts that I deem successful. I also enjoy hunting quail with dogs, dogs that I have trained. I have a good friend who also enjoys bird hunting with dogs. On Monday mornings at work we talk at length about the weekend hunt(s), and more often than not we never even talk about how many quail we killed, rather the discussion centers around the dogs performance, the condition of the range, etc. Bottom line: One group does it for the hunting experience, while the other does it for the shooting experience. Quote: IMHO any moronic, imbecilic idiot who takes his self-esteem by head shooting deer at 250-300 yds. ought to be limited to hunting games in a video arcade. If you've never seen a deer suffer because some head-shooting idiot blew his nose off, it's something that you'll never forget. GrandView, nelsonted, thank you for your mature and refreshing input. 35W | |||
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IF YOUR idea of "hunting", is going out and watching but NOT shooting, then you are NOT hunting. You can join the Greenpeacers and stand around the fire and hold hands and sing KUM BY YA, but it is NOT hunting.( I spend hours in the woods doing the same thing but I don't consider it hunting either, AND my singing voice really sucks. It's more like getting exercise while well armed)We may delude ourselves by calling it a MANLY MAN thing and call it hunting, but if we are feeling soft and fuzzy with no intent on taking the game, it is NOT hunting. Hunting is the lawful pursuit of game animals with the intent of "acquiring" one. You acquire and fulfill the purpose of hunting by "shooting" your whatever to take your selected game animal. How you do it and with what you do it is not really part of the definition. THe cave men of old, used to run animals off the cliffs, and were called "hunter/gatherers" not "herd stampeders" because what they did was not hunting. I know that bow hunters wound and lose more game then all the long distance hunters. I can't stand hearing about how many they "hit" but couldn't find because they can't track out of a paper bag. Their idea of a long shot is 30 yds. I spent my formative years working out sign when I was growing up. All it takes is patience and the ability to actually SEE and COMPREHEND what the forest floor is telling you. All I know out of this thread is there are a LOT of people who have disadvantaged themselves by not exploring all the options available to them by practicing at longer ranges and openning up new areas of shooting sports or fun. It is actually FUN to pop milk jugs filled with water at 700+ yards.It is Taxing on you and your skills. ANd when you get to the point where you run 10 for 10 at 700yds, you "short shooters" may even be inclined to try taking an animal at 201yds. Remember everyone has to start somewhere. | |||
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So these animals are standing around, stupid, 700 yards away. IF you could afford it, would you buy some cows and horses and snipe them, too? I don't see the difference. | |||
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Quote: I'm not sure what literature you've read on the history and sport of hunting, nor what authors propose your above definition. I'm rather well read on the subject for over 50 years, and I must confess your premise is one of which I'm unaware. If it's a relatively new movement, I'm content to be further oblivious of it. It comprises nothing which I support or endorse. GV | |||
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Quote: LAWCOP, By replying to only the part of my post that will bolster your case, you show your lack of maturity and self-worth. Above, I've quoted myself to refresh your memory. Just so you'll know, I've been hunting, and killing game, since I was about 5 years old. My wife, two sons, and oldest daughter all enjoy hunting. My wife has killed a buck every year for the last five years. My 13 year old daughter, has taken 3 deer in 3 consecutive seasons.My youngest daughter, who just turned 11, decided last week she was ready to kill a deer. About an hour ago, my wife and I ate elk steak from my recent unguided, far-from-the-nearest-road (can you say CHALLENGE?)elk hunt. Before I put my elk in the freezer a couple of weeks ago, I had to give away two dozen or so bobwhites that were leftover from last year. Warm and fuzzy? You bet. In fact, I'm not ashamed to admit that I shed a sad tear as I walked upon that magnificent 6x6 bull I killed in October. I cherish that bittersweet feeling of taking the life of such a beautiful animal in order to sustain mine. From your posts and your rhetoric, I doubt you've ever experienced this feeling and don't have the slightest idea what I'm talking about. As to practicing at long range, I am blessed to be a member of a rural gun range that possesses target stands every 50 yds, out to 350 yds. So, after each sight-in or practice session I lob a few down range from the bench and whack the 12" metal disc hanging at the 350 yd. back stop. Then, because it gives me such satisfaction, I lay prone between the benches and shoot the gongs that are also at the 350 yd. backstop. then i do it from the sitting position. On a shelf above my loading bench is displayed one of my greatest personal accomplishments with a rifle. In a 3"x5" picture frame is a piece of a target with a 3 shot triangular shaped group that measures exactly 1.1" at its widest point. Doesn't sound like much to you probably, but that group was fired with a stock, unbedded Remington 700 Classic with a 24" sporter barrel and my hunting handload at 350 yds. I know, there's no glory at and practicing at a paltry 350 yds, but it's the best I can do. I love a challenge. I put my 12 ga. bird gun away 10+ years ago. For the last year my 20 ga. has been gathering dust. My shotgun of choice? A side-by-side .410. It's now the only thing I use for quail hunting and sporting clays. Funny thing is, I lose far fewer birds with the .410 than with the 20. Quote: Judging from all, but especially your last post and their "bragging" content, your satisfaction is not taken from hunting game, but from taking them at extreme ranges. But it is truly asinine to belittle a person simply because he chooses to limit his shots on game to a reasonable range. To each his own I suppose. 35W | |||
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This is probably a topic for another post but look at this quote again: Quote:Where did that tidbit come from? Is it a fact or a slap at archers? | |||
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Quote: On that point I agree.You be be better served to take a camera and save the price of a license. However I will be the first to admit that I turn down many animals every year because I refuse to kill an average animal because there would be little challenge involved.Instead I choose to seek out a mature trophy because it is much more of a challenge to harvest such an animal.I would happily shoot such an animal at 25 yards, but I will shoot as far I feel that I can make a clean kill should that be my only option to harvest the chosen animal.If I don't get the opportunity to kill such an animal,I would rather not fill my tag on that day than kill an average animal. Quote: So if you could afford it,would you sneak up to within 25 yards of some cows and horses and shoot them?The previous sentence makes as much sense as the quote above it.Both are equally ridiculous. | |||
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Wow, a guy goes skiing for the weekend and look what happens IT'S A PISSING MATCH!!! This thread has generated much more commentary than I expected, and come a lot farther than I would have guessed before getting shitty. Aside from the caustic remarks this has been an interesting exchange of views. For those who have not engaged in "long range shooting", (never mind "long range hunting"), try some shooting at 300 yards. Simple ballistic charts are easily obtainable, and with a little range time one can quickly get zero dialed in. You may be surprised. Even 400 yards is not too difficult. The one requirement is the ability to accurately hold and fire the rifle. I think the ability to hold to one minute of angle, even if the rifle won't shoot one minute, to be a reasonable starting qualification. If you can't hit a bull in the butt with a handful of rice at 100 yards, forget it. Some great hunters aren't outstanding shooters, and visa-versa, but some are. In some of the places we hunt here, "out west" the average shot might look daunting to eastern or southern woods hunters, just as the idea of trying to actually find an animal in some of the country I have driven through in, say, Texas or Florida, and get a shot off, looks nearly impossible to me. My point is our hunting and shooting experiences might be too different for me to be able to make certain judgements about yours. I get a thrill out of making a shot in excess of 4,5, or even 600 yards, just as I did in stalking and shooting a bear this fall at 12 yards with my bow. Personally, I practice with both bow and rifle at ranges beyond what I would feel comfortable shooting at game, and as a result my confidence is pretty high within my comfort range. I once accompanied a hunter with whom I am well aquainted, on an elk hunt. He stalked to within some 40 yards of a bedded bull elk. He had a cow tag. Quietly, he scanned the surrounding aspen forest with his bino's, until he spotted the head of cow sticking up above the grass at about 125 yards. Silently sinking to a prone position he put a bullet through the base of her skull. She simply slumped down in her bed. The hundreds of rounds fired at long range gave my friend the skill and confidence to make a very difficult shot. Hunting skill and shooting skill came together in a very memorable hunt. Good shootin' to all, and to all a good hunt. | |||
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Ted- for your info yes I do practice my HUNTING and TRACKING skills. In my family you had to be VERY PROFICIENT in these skills before even thinking about touching a weapon and its something that has been passed down for generations my Father and Grandfather would take us out as kids DAILY and teach us how to read sign, track down game etc and I LOVED TO DO THIS AND STILL DO IT TILL THIS VERY DAY!!! I go out WITHOUT any weapons and just cut tracks and track them,read them what are they telling me etc.etc. I take TRACKING AND HUNTING VERY SERIOUSLY in my family if you dont you dont hunt simple as that. Ive tracked down alot of game that was given up on by the hunters who actually shot them not to prove that im better I just love to do it; its very challenging and I hate to waste game. Here in Hawaii we dont have coyotes,buzzards etc to benefit from the carcass so it goes to waste. I eat the meat from the game that I take in fact got a freezer full of wild boar,axis deer,blacktailed deer,feral sheep,mouflon sheep,spanish goat,elk etc just had some smoked wild boar sausage today after our hunt boy was it good. And if you think im exagerating if youre ever in Hawaii ill be glad to take you out and you can see for yourself if im lying or not... | |||
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Good lord! There certainly is a lot of "holier than thou" attitudes in here regarding long range. We've been over the 'shooting vs. hunting' before. E.g. what's the difference between sitting and shooting a deer at 50, 100, 200, 300 yards over a bean field and calling it "Hunting" as opposed to "shooting" an animal at 400, 500, 600, etc yards if you have the abilities to do so? Absolutely nothing. Yes, I've shot animals as close as 5 yards (could only see hair through my 4x Tasco) and have recently shot an animal as far as an estimated 200+ yards with a 6x Leupold and a 338WM. So before you judge me, remember, DON'T JUDGE MY ABILITIES BY YOUR INABILITIES!. And for crying out loud, DROP the holier than thou attitude! Turok | |||
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Hey Guys, Methinks Ted just can't/won't be convinced. He seems to have some sort of problem believing that anyone can shoot better than he, and that he's the only "ethical" hunter here, and that's that. I'm done wasting my typing time. $bob$ | |||
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Ya, it is a lot like trying to talk to a gun-grabbing liberal about the second ammendment isn't it? Ted's mind is closed and only HE knows what's right for everyone else. | |||
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Tailgunner, Very well put... I think it's time we rooted out all these "Girlie Men" and I've started a new thread to suggest just that.... See "Wounding/Losing Deer and the Girlie Men" here in the Big Game Hunting forum. $bob$ | |||
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If I may let me give a rough overview of what this thread contains. 1. There are Hunters that have had excellent success shooting game at ranges in excess of 400yds. They are typically diligent shooters who practice regularly and know their equipment well. 2. There are those who think that any shot beyond some minimal distance is too far. My opinion is that: 1. Each Hunter should shoot game that are well within their abilities to take cleanly. 2. Every Hunter owes it to themselves and the game to practice adequately. 3. Every Hunter is going to develop his own ethics, I would suggest that vitriol doesn't convince as well as logic..........DJ | |||
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djpaintles, Very well put SIR!!! $bob$ | |||
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Quote: i was just wondering the same thing! | |||
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Quote: Good advice for everyone. | |||
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Quote: if you jsut want to see red spray, put food coloring in the water. | |||
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Quote: I never did figure out who this was pointed at but I'll say that vension is the red meat that my wife and I prefer and we eat 2-3 bucks per year. The only meat we give "our" deer hounds is the liver from fresh killed deer. They seem to love it but I always hate it when someone grabs the liver and gives it to the dogs... The liver is my favorite part of the deer.  btw.. I talk a fair amount about running deer with hounds and I have never been able to tell any difference in the flavor or texture of meat that comes from a deer killed in front of hounds, still hunted or one shot from afar on a clear cut or power line. The only time I can ever tell is if they aren't gutted, skinned and hung to cool right away. These are usually a bit "gamier" but often more tender. $bob$ | |||
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Once again I have no problems with how others hunt, I have a problem with people that SHOOT game and write about hunting as SHOOTING. I have read these long range discussions for years and have always wondered where the responsibility appears after the TRIGGER IS PULLED. | |||
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I keep coming back to a recurring scene at my local range. Lots of megablasters that are clearly intended for shooting at distance.......AT THE 100 YD RANGE!!! They never see the 300 or even the 200 yd range. They think that if their gun is zeroed and they have a flat shooting rifle that whatever they can do at 100 is a given at 300. What a laugh. I know enough about shooting at range to know that this is a huge misconception and all this big talk about killing critters @500 yds does not impress. Its another world at those sort of distances. Do I think there are those that are truly capable, absoloutly. I know a few of them. Do I think that everyone in this thread who talks the talk is one of them? Hell no! | |||
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Wstrnhuntr, I am in complete agreement. That was kinda the drift of the thread I started RE:long range-why a magnum. The drop charts generated by the ballistic software I use are only a mathematical estimate of what is expected to happen at range. One has to go out and shoot at KNOWN (lasered?) ranges to know where POI actually is. Once the field work is done, by someone who can shoot sufficiently well, one knows where the bullets are hitting, under similar atmospheric conditions. IMO long range hunting follows long range shooting, lots of LR shooting. I also use an anemometer to measure wind speed. Range adjustments- clicking in elevation, or the use of certain tacticle reticles-another subject, is a constant. The wind is usually the biggest variable, and often is the limiting factor on what is a do-able shot. And here is a crux of this subject. I would hope that those of us who have learned to extend our range will also use the judgement gleaned from that knowledge to know when to pass on a long shot. I think all of the "shooters" (they have been few) that I have seen blasting away indiscriminately at long range animals were guys that had never tried shooting at "long" ranges and had no clue just what was involved. | |||
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I haven't read all of the post but I've read enough to know there is little difference between this one and other, similar threads. You have one group that is saying "I can and you can't so that makes my dick bigger. Neener, neener" and another that sez: "Waaal, when you live out WEST, you have to expect to make shots of 5-6-700 yards routinely. Something you folks that live on the other side of the river wouldn't understand." Basically, both statements are bullshit. I've hunted in Colo and WY for over fifteen years and have taken one shot beyond 300 yards (antelope. I doubt that I've shot an elk at much beyond 100). Also, although its not my cup of tea, I've read some very learned articles by some very knowledgable shooters about long range hunting. Properly done, there is a hell of a lot more to it than whanging away at the 600 yard gong and drgging a wind gauge around. When this thread first went up, one of the first responders said "long range" would vary from day to day, situation to situation. He further posted to stay within yourself and your equipment. At the time, I thought "well, this thread is gonna be short and sweet." I mean what else is there to say? | |||
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Neener, neener.. ROFLMAO! | |||
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WesternHunter, Yeah, with all them wives, you Mormons have got to have a big root. We hillbillies just have to worry about keeping our first cousin happy.  | |||
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Quote: Really?That is not the conclusion that most people would come to after reading all of your posts on this thread. | |||
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Western Hunter wrote: Quote: Isn't that amazing?And I am as guilty as anyone for my "Thoughts on Huntng" on the internet.Almost but not the same as saying "How tuff you are".Some really listen and others don't.You made some good points and I agree with something like if your .300 or .270 is 3 inches high at 100 yards you can blast any Deer or Elk at 300 yards.But as you mentioned unless you actually shoot 300....There is a big diff.Are the groups at 300 or 400 the same as 100..Not a chance... Long range is the distance you can and "have" shot in the same conditions like up-hill-down hill etc- consistantly with total confidence and accuracy with practice.Not because your gun can but because you have with confidence.It could be 100 or whatever "Only the shooter knows from practice" Take care over there in Utah...........Jayco. | |||
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Quote: Stubblejumper, Yeah... I re-read them too and came to the same conclustion as you... You beat me to saying it though... $bob$ | |||
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Quote: I guess that I just got fed up with his holier than thou crap before you did.He goes on and on about how he and his hunting party would never take an iffy shot then on another thread he tells a story about him spending several hours pursuing a deer that one of the elder members of his hunting party had shot in the leg. | |||
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