I look forward to every hunting season and the chance at that big bull or buck. I am however not above harvesting a doe, fawn, cow or calf to fill my freezer and do a little for wildlife management. Just wondering if anyone has any memorable "female" hunts, or thoughts in general about harvesting something without antlers.

My son and I participated in a Colorado DOW experiment some years ago where specific hunting areas were restricted to does/cows, others where either sex were legal, and other very similar areas restricted to taking only bucks/bulls.
The data gained over several years proved that more bucks survived of course in the doe/cow only. No surprise there. What was learned though is that more bucks survived the winter in areas where either sex or female only were taken. Herds were stronger over a five year period. This is why Colorado has increased the number of female (big game, be serious ) licenses over the years.

My wife and I like to eat game meat. We have hunted cow elk several times. On our deer lease We do not shoot a buck deer unless it is a nice one. We do shoot enough doe deer to fill the freezer. I also shot a cow eland this year in Texas. For the fun of the stalk, the excitement of the hunt, the meat for the freezer and to be with my friends in the Double Rifle Shooters Society.

Not enough hunters take does in those areas where population management indicates the desirability of doe harvesting.



I like to eat my share every year!



My brother's hunt club in SC makes it mandatory that each member harvest a quota of does. Most members pay a fine rather than take the does. Too damned lazy to skin and butcher them!



Please do your share.

I fill my antlerless tags first, then I start hunting for horns. Deer hunting is fun, but it's also a source of good, cheap meat. I find that having a freezer full of venison makes it a lot easier to pass up the little guys when I'm buck hunting. Our deer herd is pretty unbalanced anyway, and I try and do my part by killing does. I pulled off two successful stalks on does this year, which felt like a lot more of an accomplishment than some of the bucks I've shot out of tree stands.

NE 450, how did that eland taste anyhow???
I had one heck of a cow elk hunt this last fall. I spotted a group of elk at 7:00am, and spent the next 4 hours trying to sneak up on them. They sure made me work for it!! Anyhow, I finally belly crawled the last 150 yards through what felt like every cactus in Wyoming. The elk were all laying down on this knob taking a siesta, so I just laid out behind some sage and waited there for one to give me a good shot. This ol gal stood up 70 yards away and I let her have it. Never even took a step, just went right back down.
The steaks and burger are great...and I have a nice little pile of cacti thorns to remind me of what a great hunt it was!!!

MG

For years that is all I hae hunted,to many of the old timers here still believe, you shold never shoot does,the one hunting group I belong to only lets me hunt the last 2 weeks, and this is due to the doe hunting, they will not do it, so I do,besides who can pas up an extra 6 deer

Madgoat
Eland meat is just as good, maybe even better than Elk. I just asked my wife so you could get two opinions, she said Eland is just as good as Elk for sure.
However neither one is as good as Wild Pig.

Gentlemen,

If the wildlife management agency has prescribed doe/cow hunting for a particular area that I am hunting in, I don't hesitate to hunt does/cows. The meat is damn good.

jrslate,
I don't like the fact that O.D.F.W. allow's cow elk hunt in the month of Feb and March since the cow elk are pregnant and about ready to give birth anytime. Meanwhile, the O.D.F.W. say's there aren't enough elk for this unit, so what do they do??? they "O.D.F.W." reduce the amount of bull elk tag's making it harder to get a tag even though they allow cow elk harvesting during calving/birthing month's, so therefore or in reality, you are actually harvesting two elk, the cow and the future calf. This method's of harvesting pregnant cow elk's doe's not make since to me. The unit or area of cow elk harvest are not damage control type hunting purpose & very few private lands in these area's.
Can anybody tell me the purpose or reasons for allowing pregnant cow elk harvest in regards to promoting larger or stable elk populations?

Since the elk rut occurs in late Sept. and Oct. any of those cows were already pregnant long before the winter began. In other words, the death of ANY breedable cow, even prior to the rut, will have the effect of killing two elk.



Also, because of the lateness of the seasons, it appears these elk are in a wintering area and not resident to that particular area. IOW, they are being hunted after migrating. So perhaps the area where they spend their summers and fall is overpopulated and the one they move to just offers the convenience of getting at them. -TONY

My 2003 does!

I took this one Thanksgiving morning, she was the first deer I have taken with a firearm. All the rest have been with an arrow.



The following Saturday, my second gun doe and what a whopper, she had a 43 inch heart girth! They grow big in Marlette, Michigan.



The second doe was also the first deer I have taken on a walk and stalk. It was an excellent hunt and I could not believe I was not seen.

I took a 6 point buck on the archery opener but these two deer were the better hunts for 2003. My very first deer was a crafty old doe I hunted for three seasons before getting her. She was very smart and a worthy animal to hunt. I killed her from a ground blind with an arrow. Even though she was double lunged she ran 90 yards. The farthest I have had any deer go.

I can't wait for this season!

You asked, I don't don't! Never have and never will! I don't need the meat as I have four sons who hunt also. If you wnat bucks and bulls you can't kill the does! A doe/fawn hunt with in reason is a good amnagement tool, but issueing a 100 doe/fawn tags in a limited qouta area has an effect and it has an effact on the overall population.

Madgoat, you will go to great lengths to prove a point but you won't convience me or the 50 or so members of our gun club. You would make a good lawyer!

Oh and by the way, eland is better than elk! And Cape buffalo is almost as good!

every year for deer i get an "A" tag, which is either sex/either species, and i get at least one "B" tag for each species, which is antlerless (fawn or, preferably, doe). this means that i have the opportunity to get at least two does and one buck, or three does. if i fill all three of these tags, then i can think about getting additional "B" tags. with four kids, any extra meat helps.

I grew up hunting the "bucks only" season in Iowa. Used to be the first season was bucks only, now they are all either sex except for the late antlerless only. I have shot does for the last six seasons. I would just as soon shoot a doe as a small buck. They don't get any bigger after you shoot them (except in deer camp stories of course ).

kjjm4, great attitude! more guys in Pa should do what you're doing. Pennsylvania is a beautiful place and a great place to hunt, and it will only get better as the deer management improves. Now if you guys would just do something about that no hunting on Sunday thing...



DGK

For many years it was essentially illegal to hunt does in West Virginia. It was thought that as many as 90% of bucks were taken during the hunting season any given year. For reasons I do not understand we started to see increasing numbers in the herd 20 or so years ago. Today the herd is huge and has become a full fledged nuisance for most folks.

My wife became angry when they ate the Lilacs ... and bought rifle shells when they ate her Chrysler Imperial roses!

In that time the Department of Natural Resources started setting aside some days for doe hunting each year. The number of days has been progressively increasing. On private land today, it is legal to hunt antlerless deer almost the entire deer season, there is a separate antlerless deer season and there is a special family hunting season at Christmas time that allows antlerless deer only.

The herd seems stronger and the bucks more plentiful.

On my own place (about 80 acres) we have too many deer. After retirement I was able to hunt seriously and have taken 22 deer in the last 4 seasons. Last year I took seven on my own property (4 does and three bucks).

I have always been concerned about hitting the local herd too hard. Every year I try to make sure I never take more than half of the number I can see during daylight. Every year I worry, and so far have not needed to. Since the last season ended we've already seen 16 together in our side yard at the same time.

The data from our DNR and our personal experience certainly seems to support the taking of antlerless deer as a means to manage the herd to a stronger group that can be supported by the land.

If it is legal I shoot it. To counter overpopulation does have to die. Here in the south we have no winter die off, so I believe a 1-to-1 ratio is best. If I lived in a winter die off area, I might be convinced 1-to-2 in favor of the does.

Most people like overpopulation because they kill more animals and they are easier to hunt. I do not.


GTR

Well Kudu I disagree with you on something. Goatchoker would make a piss poor lawyer,he's so full of shit,that a blind man can see through him. His bullshit would never stand up to the collective minds of 12 jurors,unless it was OJ simpsons jury. I am glad that we spanked his ass so hard on the other thread,that he had to start his own snivel thread on doe's and fawns



On the subject of having cow hunts in Feb. and March. It is a stupid idea. Yes you may be killing cows that are knocked up in october. The differance is,in october these cows are in the first stages of pregnancy and they've just spent all spring and summer eating and preparing for the winter, their bodies aren't as taxed out. In feb and march,you now have an animal that has basically been fighting for its life against winter conditions and is slowly starving. Now stress the shit out of the animal by hunting it. Its no secret what causes an animal to abort or have a premature birth,its stress. Thats why ranchers baby their cows during the last few months of pregnancy,thats why humans take it easy during the last months of their pregnancys. Its also the same reason why the majority of elk refuges and winter pastures are closed to humans from December till may every year.



The best part,is you have a supposed outdoor rag writter and Andreas,who works for european game management supporting this half assed practice.



I have hunted Doe's and Fawns and cow elk in the past. I've also seen what this practice has done to mule deer populations,its reduced them drastically. Needless to say,I still buy the tags but I don't fill them.



What I have seen with the majority of people that do kill doe/fawns and cows and calves, in my area. Is that they are usually piss poor hunters that shoot the first thing they see regardless and a doe and fawn are usually the first thing you will see. They're to lazy to really spend anytime in the field.



What I've also seen with these same people,is give them more tags and they become even more selective in what body parts that they take home with them. Its usually tenderloins/backstraps and maybe the hind quarters,the hell with the rest,"I've already got two of these bastards hanging in my garage as it is.I'll be cutting and packaging for a week".



Another common practice,is using these doe and cow tags as a ballistics experiment. "I always wondered what a ballistic tip to one of these skinhead bastards would do" or since there is no antlers,"head shots only". Best case scenario is a succesful head shot,the worst case,which happens too often,(especially since these type of assholes spend about as much time and effort sighting and practicing as they do hunting)is a deer or elk wounded with a missing jaw.



The biggest flaw with shooting doe/fawns

and cow/calves,is in the case of adult females you're killing with one shot as many as 10 or 12 animals. Now this may be all right if you're in one of the southern or eastern states where you have a whitetail population of 1 or 2 million per state.Or a high fenced enclosure like texas,where you want a 1:1 or 1:2 ratio of bucks to doe's But in the west where you have a species that has been in serious decline for the past 10 years,its not only unresponsible its plain fuckin' stupid to kill doe's.Its the same reason why most states don't allow you to kill hen pheasants,because you're essentially killing the future of the species. In the western states,its done for tag sales and money,not management. The only animal in the west that even remotely needs to be managed through cow calf tags is the elk.



In the case of fawns and calves.You're taking a 50/50 chance. You either kill a male,which in turn eliminates the chance of killing a mature buck,or you kill a female that has never had the chance to reproduce and add to the population.



The only thing that will happen soon,is the wolves will eliminate the game populations so bad,that doe and fawn or cow calf tags will finally be eliminated. So enjoy the easy hunting while it lasts.

>>>What I have seen with the majority of people that do kill doe/fawns and cows and calves, in my area. Is that they are usually piss poor hunters that shoot the first thing they see regardless and a doe and fawn are usually the first thing you will see. They're to lazy to really spend anytime in the field.



What I've also seen with these same people,is give them more tags and they become even more selective in what body parts that they take home with them. Its usually tenderloins/backstraps and maybe the hind quarters,the hell with the rest,"I've already got two of these bastards hanging in my garage as it is.I'll be cutting and packaging for a week".



Another common practice,is using these doe and cow tags as a ballistics experiment. "I always wondered what a ballistic tip to one of these skinhead bastards would do" or since there is no antlers,"head shots only". Best case scenario is a succesful head shot,the worst case,which happens too often,(especially since these type of assholes spend about as much time and effort sighting and practicing as they do hunting)is a deer or elk wounded with a missing jaw. <<<



rmk - unfortunately, those are very valid concerns. i would never do them, and i would guess that you would never do them, but it is pretty hard to tell about the rest of the world.



i don't know about these "declining mule deer populations," though. i don't know the exact number, but we have many, many mule deer up here, and are able to get several B tags. from what i can see, the population has not suffered a single bit because of them. it might be different in wyoming, but that is what i have seen here.

I actually pick out the smaller, more tasty and tender deer and I have been known to pass on small bucks in favor of a more palatable animal. I prefer a whitetail yearling that will dress about 90 pounds. Small enough to be easy to carry and butcher, but large enough to be worth shooting and the subsequent mess in the kitchen. The average size of a smelly old buck around here is about 140 dressed.

I respect the work of game managers and do not feel compelled to take a doe when herd densities do not warrant it, however, our area has very high deer populations. In many situations, you have a choice of animals. Hunting "antlerless deer" is encouraged, and in archery season, you may harvest an unlimited number of does in several zones here. When shooting under a crop damage permit, the animal must be antlerless.

Not so long ago, before the population explosion of the last two decades, we were limited to one buck, statewide, and it was illegal to shoot a doe. Even after does were allowed, it was still considered less than honorable and many people were reluctant, due to traditional values.

When bag limits became even more liberal, and you could shoot multiple deer, everyone was still working on the "trophy" (2-1/2 YO) bucks and the populations were still skyrocketing. Now, you have to shoot two does before harvesting your second buck.

I like occasional trophys for a "representative animal" of the species, but the pile of basket racked deer antlers in my garage serves no purpose, unless you like making fun of gimpy deer racks.

I used to hunt antlers and let the does and yearlings go on by, but I'm done eating nasty old deer now. I finally killed a 12 pt that dressed at 200# with my bow and promptly donated him to "Hunter's Harvestshare".

To me, if you eat it, a big, mature animal is much less desirable. If you give it away, I guess it wouldn't matter.

Let me ask this:

Does anyone here insist on the biggest, toughest, oldest bull in the herd for their choice steaks, or do you prefer a yearling steer?

How about frying up that nice big old rooster, since he's really big and has outlived his prime breeding age, or would an eight week old capon seem more appetizing?

Eshell, I agree with your "less than honorable" statement about killing a female critter. Many people don't think they are worth a hoot to waste their time on...they represent the "carp and suckers" of the big game world. I think they are an untapped resource. Yea, I have had an easy doe hunt, but I've had easy buck hunts too. How many times has it been the doe or that ol lead cow that gave you away to the rest of the herd during your sneak? I'm sure many of you here can tell stories about that. I also know that many people are opposed to killing them because they think "they will not have any bucks or bulls if you kill cows and does". Outdoor Writer is right on with his statement "they all eat the same thing". And in Wyoming, when many areas you can't grow a cow on 100 acres, how can you expect to support hundreds of deer on that same piece of ground....without having some impact to their habitat. If I can get a doe or two out of the way to help the rest of them make it though the winter in a little bit better shape...I'm all for it.

MG

The whole concept of "trophy hunting" makes me laugh... Until I really think about it and then it makes me sick. "Trophy hunting" has resulted in rediculous trespass fees for access to private land, which leads to less hunter interest and fewer young hunters. It has (in my opinion) completely changed the way people think about hunting. What really gets me is the "Nah, I don't want to shoot him because his left G2 is shorter than the right so that will be a deduction and he'll only score 320" bullshit. Why the hell are they even hunting in the first place? They should take up golf or bowling or something that is supposed to be measured in numbers. It's really funny when you talk to people who are after a trophy mountain goat. Put two successful goat hunters togather and watch them compare their horns. 1/2 inch can be the difference between a "book" animal and a puny runt. My idea of a successful hunt is the experience. I prefer to go home with something dead in my truck, and if a big bull is standing next to a small bull, I will shoot the big bull. I do shoot does as well, and have had just as much fun hunting them as any buck/bull. If I go home with nothing it's not a big deal...

I totally agree with what you're saying 43deer...this trespass fee deal has completely gotten out of hand. It is all been spawned from this "TROPHY" notion. If you only hunt to kill a trophy, you're in it for the wrong reasons in my opinion...these are the same guys you read about in the paper getting whacked on the winter range for poaching.
It is just a big D**K contest for all those types of folks.
Oh yea NICE PHOTOS ASPEN!!!!
\
MG

No tony its not Biology 101,its Economics and Accounting 101. Its all about money and doe/fawn tags allow for far more sales.


Your scenario about getting rid of female mouths to allow for male mouths,holds little or no water,when used in the context of free ranging mule deer on public lands.


Its been common knowledge among wildlife management for years that in most members of the deer family,that a male/female ratio of 1:25 can sustain a healthy huntable population if neccessary. Whats also been found,is that a species like deer if allowed to manage themselves will level out at roughly 20%males to 80% females


The problem is alot of people want to use a 1:2 ratio like is used in private management,where the male of the species brings in all the money.The hunting public regardless of where they live,have been brainwashed and exposed to this philosophy of deer management in hunting magazines and shows etc. and think it will work in a public setting. The problem is in a public setting,you have 100 times more people hunting a given area,there is little or no control over what is killed or in what ratio it is killed. Not to mention most of the 1:2 ratio crap takes place in states where winter is basically nonexsistant or the animals are artificially sustained through feeding. Instead of public management where money is made from gross tag sales, regardless of harvest success.Therefore it's more important or it should be more important to provide the largest population of animals and the only way to do this,is protect the sex that produces and thats females.



The kaibab is a unique area,that due to mild weather when compared to other locations and habitat produces good bucks.Its not a typical as compared to the rest of the state or even the rest of the western states.

Even if the kaibab did have general either sex tags up until the 70's. Few were wasted on a doe. Take the mind set of the average hunter back then,not to mention most people still actually got off their nuts and actually hunted.Add to this the common philosophy of "you don't shoot a doe",combine it with the fact that bucks were everywhere and the result was the vast majority of deer being killed were bucks.

The late 1970's was the closing to a three decade era of great mule deer hunting across the west. Most every state had antlered mule deer only seasons up until the late 80's and early 90's. Then departments like the WYGF saw the money potential of selling multiple tags. The quality of deer hunting in my area,went to shit 4 years before the first signs of drought came into play. What did happen during these four years,was a mass issuing of doe/fawn tags. Its no coincidence that the deer population went to shit as a result.

The occurance of a couple 200 class deer being killed,proves nothing. It does nothing to show what the overall condition of the buck population is.Not to mention,isn't the kaibab traditionally hunted during the rut. If given free run to hunt anyplace in wyoming, I know for a fact I could kill deer that would at least make minimum B&C,every season. This would have nothing to do with what the overall quality of the deer population is like. It would have to do with me hunting private property or areas that have been specifically managed for trophy animals(with few tags available).

A true indicator of the trophy potential an area posseses. Is the number of 160 to 180 class bucks being killed. If you can come up with a public area that produces and has a harvest of dozens of these type of deer and still has a healthy doe population,you've achieved something as a a department. The problem is,this hasn't happened since the 1970's.

No 43deer,the concept of trophy hunting makes you sick,because you don't have the skill,self control or dedication to kill a good representative trophy of the species. Instead you're like your boyfriend goatchoker,a one pump dump,that gets the jitters over a fuckin' fawn.



As for the younger and tender animals being the best to eat. Learn a little about butchering and meat processing(not your boyfriends meat either goatchoker). You'll find little differance in quality of taste between a trophy class older animal and that of a younger animal,if you prepare it properly.

Out here in the East, doe management is a neccessity in many areas.

One point which has not yet been expressed is the increased opportunities that doe tags/seasons give to new or young hunters to harvest game. Some of the 'youth' seasons only allow the youth to shoot - the adults can focus on assisting the youngster.

The success of a hunt should not be judged strictly on whether game is taken or not, however, a young hunter that harvests game is more likely to feel successful about the hunt, and continue the tradition.

As for myself, I hunt in a "does only" deer damage area early in the archery season to put some meat in the freezer. This has allowed me to be much more selective on bucks during the rut.

Noted you replied to a message of mine, but it won't be read. For quite a while now, any message you post comes through on my computer as "*** You are ignoring this user ***"

If it ever comes to fruition that you can carry on a discussion where you don't act like a 4-yr.old on steroids, it might change. Until then I have no intention of reading your foul-mouthed, name-calling garbage. -TONY

Well said Outdoor Writer...I think everyone has had enough of RMK.
Anyhow, speaking of things that taste good. My cousin shot a yearling cow moose. TALK ABOUT AWESOME!! I would even go so far to say they taste better than elk (or eland!!!) Many areas in Wyoming, you can draw a cow tag fairly easily too...

MG

RMK please provide a couple of citations of this "Common knowledge of wildlife management" that provide this 1:25 and 20%/80% ratio. That is more than one citation with the background of the author.

Every thing I have read of your posts so far sounds more like egotistical barroom Grade AAA Bull Hocky.

Come on Outdoor Writer, don't let your biase underrate him as a 4 year old on steriods. They have more sense. He reminds me more of a hormone laden middle schooler in the locker room who has not figured out why he is so confused.

Andre Mertens,
Of course it occured to me that the cows are already pregnant at the end of rutting season. "being just a little pregnant" make the difference"?? My complaint is the fact the O.D.F.W. (state wildlife) allow's harvest or hunting of cow elk during calving/birthing time. In otherword's, if someone shot a cow, chance's are that there is a calf hiding nearby that going to waste as well as reduce population of elk next season and year after that. Also the cow's are put under alot of stress as well. The unit or area that O.D.F.W. allows cow elk during calving season are non-migrating herd's because there plenty of food and hardly any snow except maybe 2 to 3 day's every other year. There was a quota or count for this area and it reported that there was 14 bull's per 100 cow. Wouldn't you think that it would be better to harvest spike or young bull elk instead? Doe's the "European" allow harvesting of deer/elk type animal during calving time?? If so, is it because there too many animal, not enough "trophy" class animal or not enough food? Which "European" countrie's are you talking about? Perhap's you could go into more details about Population control and QDM practices.

Doe and cow hunts have provided me the opportunity each fall to take my younger children hunting. For these hunts, I purposely choose units where minimal hiking is involved, and frequently, much of the hunt can be conducted from the truck. My experience is it is an ideal introduction to younger generation. Moreover, there is no risk of an impatient or noisy child interfering with hunt. There is one cow elk unit in particular where the winter rates at a local lodge are very reasonable. The kids enjoy an indoor swimming pool and jacuzzi during the day and hunting morning and evening. I've also found that the family is more excited about the venison when they can relate it to recent fond memories. The last severaly years, the kids have requested taking a part in planning and applying for the anterless hunts as they feel it is planning a "family" outing. Finally, with my oldest boy who is now hunting for the first time, it provides a relaxed opportunity to refine his game spotting, stalking and shooting skills under circumstances that are less likely to frustrate or discourage him if a mistake cause a big buck or bull to get away. I think anterless hunts are great!

No altjaeger,you provide me with some documented sources that disprove my claim. Specifically on wild populations of mule deer,not the zoo raised shit that you feed with electronic feeders, under high fence down in texass.

Boy tony I just won't be able to sleep at night,knowing that you don't read my posts on here. Thats ok tony,your silence on the subject is proof enough that you're full of shit and know it.


Outdoor writer,thats a real good laugh.
If you can call yourself an outdoor writer tony,then madgoat can call himself an astronaut.

If you really want to add something to outdoor journalism tony,start printing all your articles on uncoated high pulp paper. That way readers can at least use your articles to wipe their ass with,since you don't provide anything worth reading about.

What I expect of a middle schooler. Preposterous claims with no back up (because there is none) and a personal attack to try to discredit the person who dare question their claims, ROFLMAO. As far as my hunting ground it is a national forest with no feeders or game fences.

Here in Autauga County, Alabama daily limit is 2, either 1 buck and 1 doe or 2 does. The past season was 27 Nov through 31 Jan.

I took 4 mature does each of the last 2 seasons. 5 were brain shots, the farthest was last season and was within 2.5 ft +/- of 200 yds in the 5 ft wide band of sugar beets in one of my green fields. Perhaps those hunters that would shoot the bottom jaw off if they attempted a head shot should devote more time to practice, or if they simply lack the aptitude for precision marksmanship only take broadside heart/lung shots.

Here in MD I try to shoot EVERY doe I get a chance at, be it a doe or a fawn. I try to sort out the button bucks but occasoinally one will slip though. I would much rather shoot a doe than a 2-4 y/o buck. I got a pile of 120-140" racks and will not shoot another unless attacked.

The MD/east coast situation is much differnt than the west and their muledeer. The area I grew up in (SW MT) used to have thousands of muledeer and a decent population of elk.

Now they are giving out TWO cow tags to who ever wants one in some areas and the deer herds are just starting to stablilze again, but are still not up where they once were.

The deer herds dropped off dramatically across the west about 10 years ago, but they had been on a steady decline since the late 70's. I don't remember their being any huge surplus of doe tags go out the year before the deer "dissapeared", but I do remember seeing about 20 winter kills in one day those following days.

There are many things to associate the huge deer populations prior to 1970... Doe tags didn't decimate the herds, MAN did. Basing your assumptions that mule deer populations have plumited due to doe tag sales is like saying, its GW's fault for americans loosing their jobs... Open your eyes there are way more reasons

How may people hunted with high powered rifles such as a 270,30-06 etc before then? Not many, most hunted with 30-30's and the like. Do you think that technology has had anything to do with it?

Preditor control, is almost nonexistent now and was common practice 30+ years ago. (IMO this is the single biggest reason for deer populations declining)

Building on wintering ranges/loss of habitat.

Whitetails moving in...

Compiting with 200% more elk.(another major factore IMO)

The list can go on for ever.

Deer populations go on cycles and areas can only sustain a certain number of animals be it deer or elk, ranchers cows, what ever. The elk numbers have doubled in the last 10 years... do you think that has had any affect on the muledeer?

I don't think shooting does has made the heards dwindle to what we have now. How does shooting 10% of a heard every year going to put a huge dent in the population when you have an average of 20%-40% fawn survival and in some places 60%+? Just the simple math works out that the populations should be growing, and in most areas that I hunt in the west the population has doubled in the last 5 years AND the game department has still been giving out doe permits!

Most of the people that post on these boards know nothing about game mangement or anything for that matter, me included, we base all our expertiese on what we see the 2+ weeks we're in the field each fall. I will leave the management up to the folks that do it for a living and not sit back and speculate "how I would have done it"

They've figgured out how to get the elk populations to all time record highs, even in the areas where the wolves have supposedly eaten them all... now they just need to work on the mulies...