KUDU, you have absolutely NO clue!!!
"Like I said before mule deer in the west compared to large populations of whitetail in the east isn't even a fair comparsion. Of course you need to shoot whitetail does to try to keep numbers donw, but out here when numbers are low from drought and over hunting, a year or two with out doe/fawn tags would help the population."
For one, it takes A LOT of country in Wyoming to winter even 1 deer (if you haven't noticed, most of the state where deer spend the winter is arid, sage brush communities or just plain desert). During years of drought (yea, we've had about 10 in a row) the amount habitat needed to support that one deer over the course of winter grows a considerable amount (the plants they need to survive the winter are not growing or have reduced productivity and nutritional value). If you keep your deer herd the same (i.e. not killing does, assuming buck harvest remains constant) those deer compete with each other for forage. Instead of having a fewer number of healthy deer on poor habitat (if you kill a few does), you have a bunch of deer in poor shape that have hammered those already crappy shrubs they winter on that much harder. You get a good winter and they all are dead. Plus, those does in crappy shape are more likely to absorb their fetus, abort the fetus, or will have a fawn in poor condition when it is born (higher chance for predation, or starvation).
Besides, you thinking the G&F makes all this $$ on does and fawns is a complete joke. Most of thoes licenses (some elk, all the deer and antelope) are REDUCDED PRICE!!! Just look under type 6 in your regs.

MG

No tony,what you wrote was another of your bullshit pieces of fuck,that you try to pawn off as fact.

As for goatchoker and his wet dream about deer. First off,we haven't had 10 years of drought,the drought started in 97. Secondly,the few deer I keep seeing on winter range,are either in management areas with fairly good browse,since livestock isn't allowed in the area. The other instances,have been deer on private ranches,which is the majority of time. Considering most winter range is private ground and the majority of owners aren't trying to make a living off of ranching anymore(rather they want to use it as a corprate write off) ,the ground tends to be in good shape. No goatchoker,the deer aren't in bad shape,there just isn't many of them left since GF started there reduced license program,to sell more licenses.

Deer on east face of the Bighorns Wildlife Management areas (ie. Kerns, Bud Love and Amdsen Cr?)? I thought there is no public access there in winter?? Kind of hard to see deer in an area when you have no access!!
Secondly, which ranchers have "allowed" you the ability to count deer on their place? I doubt you've been on the Flying "H", Texaco's, the Big 5 or any of the others. Have you actually walked on some of these ranches, or have the ability to make any sort of evaluation on what is deer winter range?? I highly doubt it.
It is incredibly for you to draw conclusions from the east slope of the Bighorns...especially when you have proved time and again you have no credibility. Just another example of you being "full of it". It is access controling deer numbers there...you could have a million deer tags and it wouldn't make a difference. Or are these large ranches opening themselves up for every doe hunter!!! Besides, many of those area 24 doe tags are used on whitetails.

Goatchoker,just because you know a few names,doesn't mean you know shit.

If you'd actually been around here,you'd know that plenty of people glass the Kerns,amsden and Bud Love. You can see large sections of all of these,out side the fence. In fact this time of the year the roads around them are full of guys glassing for sheds. They find out where they're at and wait till May 15 to go in and pick them up. Yesterday,the bud love had a bunch of mule deer right inside the fence,by the road. I also flew the face yesterday and saw a few elk and deer.


Its funny you mention the flying H, but I'm sure you probably go there and blow Johnson,for a free Coca Cola T shirt. Duffy probably then sucks you off.

If you knew anything about the Flying H,you'd know that they go out and clear the snow off most of the surrounding slopes and encourage the deer and elk to hang around,not to mention they do some feeding. All of which makes it real easy to see from the air.

Another case of you talking out your ass again goatchoker,is the texaco lands. Texaco has few people on their properties anymore.Especially since they closed down their office and sold off the lake property. Its fairly easy to glass a large chunk of texaco,from the state lands behind it.

Your conclusion about area 24 further shows how fucking stupid you are. Area 24 isn't the problem,you still have a declining mule deer herd in area 24 though. The problem comes from the east side of the interstate in area 23. Area 23 makes up for around 80% of the local mule deer harvest. Its also the area which had an over issue of doe/fawn tags,for several years straight,which the GF later admitted was a mistake. Area 26 and 29 don't help things out either. 17 is also heavily hunted for mule deer. Since its all general also,the GF can't keep a tab on how its hunted either,so its over run with people during the season. This still isn't good enough for the GF though. License vendors have complained about a decrease in general tag sales,because people are sick of the lack of deer and short season so they focus on elk. So Gf is talking about extending the season to make it more appealing to hunters. Nevermind,that the mule deer population is still low.

I've already got my additional doe/fawn antelope and deer applications filled out and ready to go. Got my reduced price cow/calf tag ready too. There are a few folks around the area I live that gladly take a deer or antelope if they can get them. They're not well off, and appreciate the food.
Does anyone have any thoughts about those types of programs "Hunters for the Hungry", etc. in their state?? Wyoming doesn't have any sort of program like that, but I know back east it is kind of popular. Seems like a good way to harvest the excess, and provide something for folks less fortunate.

MG

MAdgoat Rattle all you want!

I am against doe/fawn, deer and antelope tags in Wyoming. I buy one or two and tear it up! I will continue to do so. The G&F get the funds they so need and desire and I save a few deer and antelope.

Now as for a game for food program, I am all for it. Even road kill. You can give it away here but hard to get a hold of a game warden during hunting season to do the paper work.

I would think that the USDA would have a problem giving away road kill...the legality of uninspected meat being distributed I am sure is frowned upon anyhow. Besides, massive blunt trauma such as getting hit by a truck can't do the meat any good. People just need to learn to slow down a little bit and scan the ditches when they drive.

Glad to know that you're doing your part for habitat destruction...the starving deer and antelope thank you too.

They appreciate your donation and either have or will quickly calculate such action into the anticipated success rates and adjust the number of tags issued upward slightly, LOL.

"People just need to learn to slow down a little bit and scan the ditches when they drive".



Now goatchoker's a fuckin' expert spokesman for triple A.



Hell goatchoker, maybe you could get some legislation going to reduce the speed limit down to 45MPH on all interstates. In the meantime,you need to start driving without your headlights on at night.

In South Dakota where I hunt , there are way to many doe Mule deer. They even extended the season by two weeks to fill doe tags only. We saw a hundred or so a day mostly does and yearlings. We filled out tags in just a few hours of actual hunting. It was easy to get permission and most of the landowners were having a lot of trouble with deer in on all over thier haystacks. I am just a meat hunter and take the female of the species 99 percent of the time. Way better eating. Its our duty when the herd is out of balance as it is there. If deer were in any kind of short supply in my area, I wouldn't hunt at all. The horns mean less that nothing to me.

Women and children first. I would hunt does the rest of my life as long as I am able to take one trophy buck. I'm pretty much a meat hunter The horns are nice but all they do is stir the stew.

It is too bad folks don't take everything into consideration about why agencies need to harvest the female and young critters. Landowner tolerance, habitat conditions, over all health of the herd. Heck, I'm sure more deer are hit by cars in some places than hunters will ever take (just look at Nugget Canyon, between 450-700 deer get ran over each year). No one ever thinks that in a hard winter, the more unhealthy deer you have, the more will die. Might as well keep them at that point where they are the healthiest. If you hold them at artificially high numbers for too long, all you do is allow them to screw up the place they live...and it will be a long time before that ever recovers. Everything cycles...just at different intervals. I'm waiting to see the human population crash!!!

Nebraska has allowed road kills to be picked up for years. It keeps the highways clean and the meat doesn't go to waste.

I still won't shoot a doe/fawn. I don't need to kill or need the meat. Five of us hunting we have all we can eat.

There was an artical in Field and Stream,about a guy that picks up road kill and has given thousands of dead deer away. Mr. Roadkill,is what they call him. He's retired and thats all he does,is drive back roads and pick up freshly killed animals,to give away to the needy.

The Wyoming Game and Fish has some screwed up guidelines,on road kill. I was at a GF town meeting and goatchokers hero,game warden Terry Cram was one of the GF personnel in attendance. They called for an open talk time,for any GF topics to be discussed and some guy asked about road kill and the policy of the department,in dealing with it. The GF immediately said leave it alone and if you have too, call the GF. This same guy asked what was done with it. The response,was in the vast majority of times,its taken to public landfill. In rare cases its taken to the raptor recovery facilities and fed to injured birds.

This guy was still not satisfied with what was being done with the animals and felt that the poor should be eligible. Finally Cram spoke up and said that the problem with poor people getting the animals,was there isn't enough people in wyoming,that truely qualify as being poor enough to need these animals. Then he went into some bullshit story about a local rancher that put a heavy duty bumper on his truck and was out hitting deer on purpose,then calling the GF and asking to keep the deer,which at the time GF allowed him to keep the deer. They supposedly caught the guy in the act of running deer down.And as a result the department discontinued the policy of allowing motorists to keep the animals they hit.

Another person in the crowd asked about starting a hunters for the hungry program,like other states have and asked if the dept would help back or sponsor or basically promote something like this. The GF couldn't even give a real response and stumbled around the question, until someone else brought up an unrelated question and the discussion went in that direction.

For years,many small towns in wyoming and through out the west,fed road kills and donated wild game,to inmates in their county jails. It wouldn't fly now days,because of civil liabilities.

A hunters for the hungry program,would be a good project for you goatchoker. You should pursue this further,especially with your deep concern with road kills.

I do a lot of interstate and highway driving...I would bet RMK would gladly be out there with his orange jumper (the one that says "COUNTY" on the back) scraping up a deer that were made into a long chunky stain thanks to a semi. Do you use a metal spatula, or just go for the big chunks with tongs??
Yea, it is too bad they are not used, but anything that gets hit hard enough to kill it probably shouldn't be eaten. Heck, many people won't even eat a round steak...let alone a flattened round steak!!

Speaking of orange coveralls. Goatchoker claims,that the last time he was in county,he got his shit pushed in so hard he couldn't take a dump for a week. Now he's trying to sue the county,for the trauma and anxiety,he feels when looking at the color orange.

I have no problem with the anterless hunts here in B.C. if properly managed. I put my draws in and hope for the best. With or without it my freezer usually has plenty of meat at the end of the season.

I have an example of how it can work against the well being of the elk herd.

In the late 80 to mid 90's there was an abundant amount of calf draws being alloted. The cow calf ratio took a serious beating. In some areas calfs were as rare as hens teeth when it was exploding in the previous years. Alot of the calfs were not making it to adult in areas where vehicals could access. The meat hunters cleaned out logged areas where they could drive their trucks. Picture a herd of 20 cows in oct and no calfs. On top of that, a ridiculous amount of cows were accidently being shot as calfs. Don't say that it's a very hard mistake. I knew 2 different hunters who picked out a calf and then in their scope, made a brutal mistake. These two fellows were honest and reported their screw up but for alot of these mistakes, assholes just left the animal to rot and cancelled their tag on another.

I disagree with a calf draw if this is what it brings.

KK,
"Just so you know, I wasn't trying to defend you. I was just hassling the Norseman."
What the hell's going on here KK?????????????????????????????????????????????????
Why would you want to hassle the Norseman?????????????????????????????????????

"I kinda hope he kicks your ass. He just isn't going to do it on the topic of elk."
O.K., what the hell is going on with KK??????????????????????????????????????
is some sort of a homo from Ontario, Canada????????????????????????????????
Perhap's this is KK soap opera??????????????????????????????????????????????

"I think he's likely a Palestinian truck driver from Lodi"
Alright Outdoor Writer, you've got some explaining to do about your jewish half-breed homosexual admirer!!!!!
So what the hell is really going on?????????????????????????????

Here in Idaho we still have some either sex Elk hunting without a draw.Being a meat hunter also,I would take a nice cow over a tough old Bull anyday for just the eatin.A tad smaller but alot more tender and better eatin in my opinion.

Just my opinion.Jayco.

Thanks for the heads up, I had noticed that logic seems to be in short supply on this site. To expand on my point, I'd much rather take some females and young animals out of the population than be overrun with a bunch of starving, unhealthy critters. The first bad winter you have, you see just how bad the conditions are on the winter ranges, and the deer, antelope, elk, and whatever else is trying to live there takes it in the shorts. It would be nice if we could have much larger numbers of big game animals, but much of the habitat in Wyoming just can't take any more. Between the extended drought, expanding subdivisions in rural areas, and increased oil and gas development, a lot of big game winter ranges are being disturbed or lost completely. A lot of the sage brush and shrubs that are left are decadent and not capable of producing the nutrition to keep these critters going all winter long. It doesn't make sense to let big game herds keep growing until they eat themselves out of house and home. Killing does and cows is how you manipulate the population, anyone with a basic understanding of wildlife management knows that. If a guy wants to just hunt males, fine, but harvesting a doe or cow shouldn't be considered a degrading act, as it is important for the overall health of the heards. It's the healthier females left behind that have a better chance of producing a "trophy" male down the road. I know, more of that logic you were talking about...

Gutshot shooter,]
would you be kind enough to mentioned which state you are from before making a post? if not, don't respond to American state's big game forum's, Thank you.

Sorry about that, I'm still getting this place figured out. I also hail from the great state of Wyoming (born and raised, and I plan on dying here).

Goatchoker,now we've got ass'shot. What we really need,is some IP numbers,to get rid of all these double posting motherfuckers on here.

norseman - what the hell are you starting in on him for? whether he is from wyoming or not, he brought up some good points that are RELAVENT to wyoming, unlike half the other crap on this thread. i am from montana, and even i can see that wyoming has a system that only a mother could love. i also notice that you are from oregon, so i would conclude that he has just as much right to speak on it as do you.

you may not agree with him, but there's no way in hell that you should be telling him not to post. give him credit for trying to stick to the issues and not fling mud around.

rmk -

i know i am going to catch hell for this, but what the hell did gutz do to YOU to deserve the personal attack? i can see the little love/hate relationship you've got going with goat, OW and others, but this guy wasn't asking for what you gave him. at the risk of sounding prudish, why not at least wait till the guy deserves to have his head ripped off before you do so?

getting back to the topic, is the deer population in wyoming so fragile that shooting does and younger bucks will destroy it? i am honestly not trying to get in a pissing contest, but where the HELL is this coming from? as i said before, i am only one state away, and we can shoot up to 6 does each year (this might be old information, but i believe it is still true. if anyone has "current" information, i will be glad to edit my statement) and we have absolutely no problems at all with our deer population. on the contrary, even after hunting season is over, we are tripping over the poor critters, and they all appear quite healthy.

once again, i am not trying to be a troublemaker, but i just don't see it. perhaps wyoming should adopt a game management policy similar to montana's; that way your numbers can increase to the same level as ours. i believe that we have the two best states in the union, and i would like to see healthy game populations in both states.

i'll put on my asbestos suit now......

You're just getting more for your money up in Montana.







Montana charges less for licenses and has deer thick as flies. I wish wyoming would follow suit and start doing such great management like montana.





Also,you must live in a real special part of montana,because I know several people that have lived in montana for years and all of them agree that the mule deer population in montana is a shell of what it used to be.





The mule deer populations of the west aren't so fragile that the harvest of a few does and fawns tear it down. But when you allow this type of harvest to go on year after year,it does have a serious impact and the numbers show this. In one breath the GF cries about mule deer numbers decreasing and in the next breath they talk about the need for more licenses. When you look at the past when the mule deer herds were at their best,doe /Fawn tags weren't used. These doe/fawn tags became vogue when the departments were faced with financial shortcomings. The only place you find support for these tags,is on the net and the GF.



I'm sure gutshot,doesn't have anything to do with goatchoker and he'll be on here shortly,to dispell that myth. However,it's nothing less then fuckin' amazing,all of the supposed wyoming residents that suddenly appear on this forum,when none were on here before.

>>>Montana charges less for licenses and has deer thick as flies. I wish wyoming would follow suit and start doing such great management like montana.<<<

i had heard (on this forum) that wyoming was putting a bunch of money into hiring a consultant to come and help straighten out their "problems." i'd be glad to save them that money and set up a meeting between our people and yours. would probably work better than a consultant from utah, and save quite a bit of money that could go into game management.


>>>Also,you must live in a real special part of montana,because I know several people that have lived in montana for years and all of them agree that the mule deer population in montana is a shell of what it used to be.<<<

every part of montana is special, of course, but i ahve lived in the northern and central part all my life, and have always seen more mulies than whitetails. the numbers might be down a bit, but they are certainly not hurting a single bit. at the close of the season last year, i could still drive on the road about 300 yards from my house and see a very large herd of mule deer every morning grazing side-by-side with antelope. a few miles down the road would be another herd, and another.....the numbers are lower than they have been, but they were pretty high to begin with, and over the last couple of years, are actually going back up.


>>>The mule deer populations of the west aren't so fragile that the harvest of a few does and fawns tear it down. But when you allow this type of harvest to go on year after year,it does have a serious impact and the numbers show this. In one breath the GF cries about mule deer numbers decreasing and in the next breath they talk about the need for more licenses. When you look at the past when the mule deer herds were at their best,doe /Fawn tags weren't used. These doe/fawn tags became vogue when the departments were faced with financial shortcomings. The only place you find support for these tags,is on the net and the GF.<<<

i'm not qualified to speak on the financial issue; you may very well be right. hell, you probably ARE right. i do know that the number of (mulie) doe tags issued in montana is usually reflective of that years population numbers. if the numbers go down in a certain district, the number of tags issued goes down. if the numbers are up, then the number of tags go up. if the numbers are WAY up (and they were in several areas this year) they will open a special or extended season. during these special seasons, does are usually the only animals allowed to be hunted.

as i said, it may or may not work for wyoming, but it certainly works in montana. just don't let them turn you into a province of colorado! from what i hear, it's REALLy bad there!

It isn't working that well in montana either. The price of tags in montana,just hasn't kept up with price increases in wyoming. After montana see's what wyoming has gotten away with sales wise,they'll follow. Mule deer populations are at all time lows when compared to the past. The only people that can't seem to understand that,are a few idiots on this forum. GF admitts numbers are down,hunting publications point out low numbers,hell wyoming wildlife magazine has pointed out low numbers and shrinking mule deer populations.

You can post as much as you want on this topic,it still comes down to old fashion money and greed. Very little of it has anything to do with wildlife management. Its no wonder the state gets away with what they do. There is no shortage of idiots on this forum,that believe just because the state does it,it has to be right.

Just because there weren't a bunch of Wyoming residents on here before doesn't mean there won't be forever. Word gets around. Just because I happen to agree with a lot of the points that Madgoat makes doesn't mean that we're double posting. As for the G&F being in it for money and greed, last time I checked, it was a state agency and not a private corporation that works for profit. If it was, think about how much license fees would be then. The people of Wyoming have charged the G&F with a lot of responsibilities, and those responsibilities cost money. It sucks that hunting and fishing license fees have to cover all of those costs, but until G&F can get some kind of alternative funding to pass the legislature, we're stuck with that system. G&F may not be perfect, but they better job than a lot of people give them credit for with the resources they've got. As for shrinking mule deer populations, again, there's a hell of a lot of habitat loss going on out there. Fire suppression, housing development, oil and gas development, etc., are disturbing winter ranges or making the plants older and less productive. What are the deer supposed to eat all winter? Why not kill some of the does off so the ones left are healthier and can give birth to some healthy fawns, rather than half-starved ones? Until the habitat conditions in most parts of the state improve, we'll never see the numbers of mule deer we used to, and that's a fact.

I wouldn't even waste your time G-Shot...the guy isn't even from Montana, but he is a freaking expert on how they operate too. He is too stupid and stubborn to understand any sort of simple concepts concerning doe, fawns, whatever. Thinks the G&F is just in it for personal greed (yea, from a state agency they're really going to get rich) and that they want to kill off their only source of funding.

As far as the consultant is concerned...it isn't for any G&F game management "problems", but for a new licensing system that they're trying out. Heck, these guys have been doing this longer than we have been alive!!

tasunkawitko,
It appears that you're the one that making a big deal about it, afterall Gutshot didn't mind replying that he's from Wyoming. If you'll noticed, some of the big game management idea or practices that was posted earlier, does't apply to all or some western states or better yet some specie's of elk. The reason why I asked gutshot to state where he from, is to prevent other poster from Florida or even New York to post what they think is better idea even though they don't live in the states mentioned.
Are you satisfied?

"i also notice that you are from oregon, so i would conclude that he has just as much right to speak on it as do you."
What?

Thanks Gutshot,I knew you'd reassure everyone that you aren't goatchoker,even though you two are equally fuckin' stupid.

No the GF isn't a private corporation,but they like to operate like corporations do and they don't have near the accountability that a corporation does. The citizen isn't like a shareholder,that gets to decide on issues. The citizen gets to pick up the tab every time the GF fucks up,wether they want to or not. The GF pisses away plenty of money.Just because its a state agency, doesn't mean its poor. There isn't any way that you can continue to hire less people and yet increase tag fee's and still claim a loss,unless you're incompetant like the GF. Plenty of the assholes in the GF like the power more then the pay.

No they don't want to kill off their source of funding. But they don't have any problems burning a candle at both ends and hoping that it doesn't burn itself out. The GF wants to over harvest doe's and fawns for the money,and then pray like hell it doesn't catch up with them.

Yes goatchoker,the GF has been fucking the dog longer then most people have been alive. There isn't any end in sight either,as long as people like you continue to follow rather then question what they do.

The honest citizen who observes season dates and operates within the law does the majority of game management,not the GF. The GF is in it to justify and continue their jobs and try to make money,even if it comes at the exspense of wildlife being over harvested.

"The GF is in it to justify and continue their jobs and try to make money,even if it comes at the exspense of wildlife being over harvested."
Money for what? What incentive is there for a guy to "screw the citzens" when it doesn't reflect in his paycheck? That makes no sense (but when have you ever!). I'm sure the evil biologist just sits in a dark room trying to figure out a way to screw you RMK. Oh yea, learn how to spell!!

"The citizen gets to pick up the tab every time the GF fucks up,wether they want to or not. The GF pisses away plenty of money."
Pisses away money doing what?? Oh, I forgot..those invisible diesels that exist only in your mind. Yea, all those habitat improvements are just a waste of money. We don't need any in RMK's world. Those deer should be able to eat dirt and grow 30" racks.

"The GF wants to over harvest doe's and fawns for the money,and then pray like hell it doesn't catch up with them."
Yea, selling a bunch of REDUCED PRICE tags is just going to make them roll in the dough. Note key word again, REDUCED PRICE.

"Just because its a state agency, doesn't mean its poor."
Yea, it does. The G&F is pretty much broke. But there are folks like you that want big buck deer behind every bush, a 350 class elk on every ridge, and want to pay $2 for a lifetime license.

"The GF is in it to justify and continue their jobs and try to make money,even if it comes at the exspense of wildlife being over harvested."
Hmmm..let's kill everything to make money so I can keep my job. This makes no sense...were you dropped as a child??

You are why the G&F needs more game wardens...judging from your posts I doubt you resemble any sort of "law abiding, respectable citzen". Folks like you are the problem in this state, no clue, quick to open one's mouth before knowing all the facts, but doens't give a rat's behind to help find a solution to help out wildlife. Kind of hard for you to call any shots when most of your time is spent on the couch. Do you have a degree in armchair biology??

RMK, thanks again for reassuring all of us that there still is a use for lobotomy's in today's society.

MG

norse -

i simply found it ironic that you were heckling ol gutz on where he is from when you yourself are from oregon, not wyoming. if you are actually from wyoming, then it is my mistake for assuming that you are from oregon.

no harm, no foul. let's all have a group hug and a round of beer. rmk is buying, i hear.....

Actually goatchoker,volunteered for pivot man on the group blow job he's giving us. He also said he'd take Kool aid instead of beer.

I will have a Molsons!

I might buy a six pack of molson,but the rest of these dipshits are going to have to drink some piss warm Hamm's,or steal goatchokers packet of kool aid.

I believe I will settle for some good ol' southern sweet ice tea.

It would seem apparent from the length of this thread that anyone who wants to be educated on the facts of doe/cow harvest have all the info needed.

This could have been an outstanding thread if the original intent had been served. Unfortunately......