Got the PM. One waiting for you now. -TONY

RMK, Holy crap. We agree on something! Glad you feel that way on point restrictions, and yes, Colorado is a good example of how well it does not work. G&F does use choppers for elk and deer. Fixed wing airplanes are used for antelope.

Some info on surveys direct from WY G&F. -TONY



"Big game animals are classified to sex and age at various times of the year using a combination of aerial and ground observations. Classifications are often made in December or January following hunting seasons, and antelope numbers are estimated in the spring after the effects of the winter are known. Other surveys are conducted in the summer to determine fawn production and the buck/doe ratios of antelope populations. Counting animals at various times of the year also gives a good indication of habitat uses in different areas during different seasons. Information gathered is used to set seasons and license quotas for the coming year."



If anyone has specific questions on WY areas, holler and I'll get in touch with my contacts there for an answer(s). I usually talk to them every week or so anyway. Right now, I'm keeping track of the elk fiasco near Rawlings.

ROFLMAO I am still waiting to see something intelligent roll of one of your post. However, I am not holding my breath.

Nah, I knew what you what you were getting at. The part I cited concerned your comment about the oil and gas rigs, i.e. "energy development ." IOW, I was looking at the sage destruction from a different angle. -TONY

Rawlins Elk Thing...

I don't pretend to know what happened or who to blame, but it kind of makes me want to cry. The poor things damn near make it thru the winter and are about to have calves and now this weird juju hits. I'm guessing it's something natural but if it turns out that it's some sort of human related negligence or intentional killing, the perps will pay. They will pay in a serious way, and I will be happy watching them pay. Shit, I better go to bed.

Well 43deer,you better tell the local GF to stop counting elk and deer with an airplane. I know the pilot that flies them. He claims they don't like the chopper because of the extra noise and all flying low does,is run animals into cover where they can't be counted or photoed.

Your pilot friend is full of crap.

I highly doubt it. I've been at the airport when the biologist went flying with the guy.

Why were you at the airport?

Another friend has a kit plane,that has to be flown weekly,or the motor has problems. I fly with him occasionally. I happened to be there one morning when the biologist was going up. The guy flying the biologist also flys the predator control guys while they shoot coyotes. Anymore questions there slick.

Well, just more fuel for the fire.
RMK "GF does surveys for fawn and calf birth rates during the spring. A survey during the winter wouldn't do any good for animals that aren't even born yet." No they don't...ask you biologist in Sheridan. Partuition areas are difficult to sample because the critters are spread out. You have no accuracy in your buck numbers, plus the first weeks of a fawn or calf's life are spent trying to hide from predators making counting them incredibly difficult.
RMK "Their ratios are also questionable,since they only count a couple hundred does and then try to apply this limited data against thousands of animals." This is also wrong. Their ratios have tight confidence intervals that reflect what is on the ground based upon classifications. Why don't you attend a season setting meeting and ask them just how many animals they classified.
RMK "The majority of field data done in the winter (you contradict your first statement),is done through aerial counts and they aren't sex specific."
HOw do you think they get their buck/fawn/doe ratios??
RMK "You can read all the books you want. The majority of text is based on theory and very little field work or real world conditions. Much like your 50 doe scenario. On top of this you have guys like tony writing books and its clear that tony doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground."
Yea, those guys with a PHD in front of their names that have gone to college for a dozens of years and do this for a living don't know shit. Just go and ask your local armchair biologist (RMK) who has had no formal biological training or experience, and has never managed anything and he will tell you the "in's and out's" of proper wildlife managment. You obviously have never had any experience with any graduate work, or college for that matter. Ignorance is bliss isn't it??? Pick up the a copy of your "Jounral of Wildlife Management" and see how much theory is in it. NOne!
How can someone disprove your theory's RMK, when they are bogus, rednecked, uneducated attitues that only reflect how stupid you are??? You can't disprove something that has never been proven.

MG

Outdoor Writer,

"The gestation period for a cow elk is about the same as a human--270 days or so. So it's not likely they would be calving during Feb./March. Most elk calves are dropped in May or June."

So Outdoor Writer, which specie's of elk are you talking about? what part of USA are "Most elk calves are dropped in May or June"?? Maybe your so called theory applie's to your home state or perhap's Rocky Mountain specie's.

"It's quite possible there is a resident herd in the unit, BUT...it also sounds like the perfect area for migrating elk to winter after they leave their home area. Again, just the timing of the hunt seems to indicate that. It's difficult to say for sure without knowing *ALL* the facts."

First of all Tony, I don't post B.S. or pretend to know everything. If I said it was a non-migrating herd, then it was a non-migrating herd! not because of hunting one week every year with a rifle in the fall or bowhunting 4 week's in the summer, camping & fishing in the same area, volunteer-ing free time with elk wildlife biologist for this same area, but because I see the "same" herd every other week and every year. Also, I looked forward to taking picture's or viewing elk calves in "March" not May or June! I noticed that you tend to generalize and sometime there nothing wrong with that except that "YOU" tried to discredit my fact's/statement or perhap's point me out as a B.S.'er and I do not take that lightly. So in reality, you don't know what your taking about with respect to N.W. Oregon elk residing in the "rain forest." Beside the fact that elk in my location have calves in "March", I still don't condone shooting pregnant elk so late in their pregnancy. Can you name the specie's of elk in N.W. Oregon, Tony?

"It's difficult to say for sure without knowing *ALL* the facts."
I know the world doesn't revolve around Tony or so called Outdoor Writer.

I had a conversation with one of my contacts at WYGF yesterday. Seems the count of dead elk is nearing 300 now, and they have already eliminated dozens of possible causes. They are doing necropsies on a bunch now. -TONY

Hi, Norseman:

I don't know what the problem is that requires attacking Tony's profession or person. I have known him for over 15 years, a good part of which I was pissed off over something or other. However, I'd bet a good dollar he has been farther and hunted more than you. That's just statistical, no reflection on you.

I get the sense you are more pissed off about his being an outdoor writer than about some hair-splitting over elk gestation. If so, you have a good basis. Most outdoor writers have a wife that works, trade truth for free hats and want to be an expert on everything. However, some, like Tony, have been around the block and seem willing to share their rather extensive experience with strangers for free.

k (outdoor EDITOR) k

Damn goatchoker,sheridan. You and 43deer must be comparing notes.That or you two assholes are the same person double posting. Which is it?

I've been to the town meetings and have never heard Gf claim any of the shit,that you're claiming goatchoker.

Wow tony,that's one hell of a contact you have with GF. That info's only been in every fuckin' newspaper in the state for the last two weeks.

Damn KK,you've known the guy for 15 years and you still haven't figured out that tony is full of shit and doesn't have clue what he's talking about. KK,you must be really dense or just extra fuckin' stupid.

It wouldn't matter if tony worked as a garbage man,or a writer. He's still full of shit and you'd think someone who has spent as much time as tony has in the field would at least have some common sense. Tony still can't figure out why its a bad idea to stress elk out by hunting them on winter feed grounds,shortly before calving season.

I used to believe the threads that bashed outdoor writers,were just cases of jealousy. Having since then, read some of the shit that tony writes. I now believe these threads were actually started,as the result of reading some of the shit that tony calls outdoor writing.

RMK-I am incredibly familiar with Sheridan, and the surrounding area. You just put all the facts together for me, that is all.
I find it is funny you're so defensive about OW's posts too. Guess the truth hurts eh??? You're more than welcome to keep on a shoveling from your end.

MG

Outdoor Writer,
the biologist don't have any control or say in "politic." Yes, I've asked them in the past and they're response's were not good about the late season cow hunt and another thing they mentioned that really upset me was the fact this type of hunt bring in revenue's into the state of Oregon "General Fund" to finance other non-wildlife programs. In reality, it's all about $$$$$$$.
To answer your question about ruts during archery, it all depend on "Mother Nature" like what you posted earlier. There has been some year's that I was scouting for elk in July and heard bugling all over the place and then return in Aug with high hope's to bugle a trophy bull elk in and never heard a single bugle for the rest of the archery season. However, in the eastern part of Oregon where there is rocky mountain elk, the archery season coincide with the rut during late Aug and sometime late Sept. By the way, the elk info you posted, are elk located in S.W. Oregon and some herds have rocky mountain cross from what I told if that has any effects on when the rut take place.

Norseman,



Maybe I'm not following along to well, so bear with me.



So the bugling elk in the area you're scouting are already out of velvet and hard-horned during the summer -- in July and early August then????



When is the archery season for the herd we have been discussing where calves are dropped in Feb./March? Sounds like in order to have any success with calling, it would have to begin in late June or early July when the bulls are after the cows, right?



RE:"...was the fact this type of hunt bring in revenue's into the state of Oregon "General Fund" to finance other non-wildlife programs." < !--color-->



And that isn't the case with the regular license revenue from the general season? Are the ones above listed separate in the regs under a sub-heading or such?



Lastly, where does this specific late hunt you've cited occur? Is there a specific hunt area # or such? I'd like to find out more about it. -TONY

Norseman,



Perhaps I found at least a partial answer to your question here:

Management Objectives and Oregon's Elk Management Plan 2003



The first is a bit dated, but it appears the bull:cow ratio in the northwest regions weren't too hot and might still be that way, thus the antlerless hunts. Geez, back then a couple of those regions such as Wilson & Trask were 5:100! That doesn't make for healthy herds.



Also, forget about when the hunts occur. I found the regs and see there's a BUNCH of the controlled antlerless hunts that run into Feb. and March. -TONY

Dear Knight In Kinky Armor (or KK),



Please stop it! You're making me all weepy.



Sometimes I kind of chuckle, thinking about how long some of the folks now roaming the web would have lasted on our old Compuserve forums. I would have spent many hours each day just swinging the hammer.



Now, it's a rare occasion when an entire thread takes place where the discussion stays on the target -- the issue. More than likely it degrades into denigration of individuals and/or personal attacks, though. Heck, some start that way from the get-go, too. -TONY



P.S. If you ever need a hat, let me know; I have boxes of them!

Yea, I agree. Anyone else have any good doe/fawn/cow/calf stories or pics???

I'm sure many folks filter off when they start seeing the personal attacks. KEEP IT CLEAN!

MG

A hat?

I keep mine in burlap bags hanging in the basement.

The thing I miss about the "old days," before the worldwide web, is that whether you were on CompuServe or a local BBS, you had to use your real name.

It's hard to muster up much respect for a man that attacks you from behind a cathode-ray tube with a snootful of Vostok.

Just so you know, I wasn't trying to defend you. I was just hassling the Norseman. I really am one, by the way -- a Norseman. 6'3", 220 and a surname that ends witn "sen."

I kinda hope he kicks your ass. He just isn't going to do it on the topic of elk. I think he's likely a Palestinian truck driver from Lodi.

kk

Hey, here's a snippet picked up while I was reading Oregon's Elk Management Plan (2003). The bolded text kinda relates to 100/50 doe discussion. Of course, this concerns elk, which rarely have twins as healty does will, but gist of the greater survival point is clear. I posted the entire section because it contains some interesting info. -TONY

Antlerless Harvest

Antlerless elk generally are harvested in Oregon for three reasons: population control, to solve damage problems on private lands, and to collect reproductive and age information on specific elk herds. Antlerless hunting also provides a valuable source of recreation. Harvest of antlerless elk may increase calf survival by reducing competition for resources, particularly when elk densities are high compared to available cover and forage resources. When an elk herd is at or above MO (if MO is set at environmental carrying capacity), it can withstand a reasonable amount of antlerless harvest without reducing productivity. Such hunts provide increased opportunity for hunters to hunt and harvest elk, especially where bull ratios and bull hunter successes are low.

Antlerless harvest as a form of population control is important for several reasons. Elk populations are bound by their habitat�s capacity to support a certain number of elk. This level is called the environmental carrying capacity. When predation rates are low to moderate, an elk population below carrying capacity will grow toward that level based on its reproductive rate. As carrying capacity is approached, reproductive rate slows, or the mortality rate increases. If the objective is to maintain maximum production from a herd, numbers need to be maintained at a level below carrying capacity.

As the density of adult animals increases in an elk population constrained by habitat, the survival of calves typically declines. A reduction of the adult component may increase calf survival. Antlerless hunting has been a valuable tool for regulating the size, composition, and density of an elk population. When calf ratios are high, bull-only regulations simply cannot remove enough animals to reduce the population.

Generally, elk populations reach a social carrying capacity (the willingness of landowners and local residents to accept elk) well before they reach their environmental carrying capacity. Elk damage to private land typically reaches an unacceptable level under such circumstances. Antlerless hunting serves several purposes in damage situations. The overall number of damage causing elk is reduced, the animals that are left become more wary, their typical use patterns change, and damage is reduced. Addressing elk damage to private property with antlerless hunting is sometimes difficult because some landowners will not allow public access to their land. When adequate harvest is prevented, elk damage often continues to be a problem for adjacent landowners.

An emergency hunt procedure has been in place in Oregon for many years. Elk damage problems can be addressed using this method separately from planned antlerless hunts. Smaller areas with acute damage problems can be handled with a smaller number of hunters pinpointed at solving that problem immediately. Emergency hunt lists are established on an annual basis for each county of the state.

Recent changes in the Landowner Preference (LOP) Program have led to the development of what is termed �LOP Damage Tag Exchanges.� Unused landowner preference tags can be exchanged on a two-for-one basis for antlerless elk tags when damage occurs on the registered private land. The local biologist and landowner must agree a damage situation is occurring, and tags are issued specifically for that LOP land. This procedure has quickly increased in usage and is often preferable to emergency hunts by both the landowner and the local biologist.

Antlerless hunting to collect reproductive tracts is generally done in conjunction with research and management studies in a specific herd range, WMU, or region. Collection of female reproductive tracts and udders during late November allows biologists to determine pregnancy rates. Lower incisors are also collected for elk age determination using the cementum annuli technique, providing information on the age structure of the antlerless component of the herd. Kidneys and associated fat deposits are also collected to determine relative physical condition of harvested cows.
< !--color-->

The real name thingie was something Joe R. and I started on the CIS OUTDOORS FORUM back when modems were still 300 BPS in the mid-1980s. As we expanded into the chain of outdoors-related forums on Compuserve, we kept the rule in place. But many of the forums let members use anything, and it's still that way.



As you well know, I have no problem with carrying on a good lively debate -- as long as it's civil and stays on the topic rather than the debaters. Disagreements and debate often can teach and help one learn at the same time.



Norseman is OK. We just sort of got off on the wrong foot.



Did you see the OW's LIVE African Wildlife Photos thread yet? -TONY

kkk,
"I have known him for over 15 years, a good part of which I was pissed off over something or other"
Is he your daddy from America???????, if not, how is it you know Tony????? perhap's you're brown-nosing?

"However, I'd bet a good dollar he has been farther and hunted more than you. That's just statistical, no reflection on you."
So would it be fair or statistical to say that you are a homosexual from Ontario? What was the point of your post??

"I get the sense you are pissed off about his being an outdoor writer than about some hair-splitting over elk gestation"
Not true, I'am pissed off because Outdoor writer responded to my post without any concrete answer's when in fact the post or question was directed towards Andres' and perhap's jrslate since jrslate is from Oregon not Arizona or better yet Ontario.

"However, some, like Tony, have been around the block and seem willing to share their rather extensive experience with strangers for free."
Well I respect Outdoor Writer response's and would like to learn from it since I am not ignorant like you KK, but his response's didn't apply to jrslate or my home state of Oregon and again I'am still looking for answer to the purpose of harvesting late term pregnant elk to improve herd population or bull to cow elk ratio.
Gee, I wonder what specie's of elk in Ontario, Canada?

Outdoor Writer,
would you be kind enough to provide the website link to me via PM or this forum topic?
Thank you.

Norseman,



Not quite sure what website link you mean, but if it's Management Objectives and Oregon's Elk Management Plan 2003, those *ARE* links. Just click on the blue text and a new window opens right to each one of them. You will need Acrobat reader installed on your computer for them, however, because they are PDF files. -TONY

RMK,
Have you ever tried to get some help with that alcohol problem?? After reading all your CRAP, you obviously are drunk, or were beaten severly as a child in the skull (are you a redhead?).
Don't know where you are getting all your information (imaginary friend of yours) from, but I would imagine your butt hole should really be hurting right about now.
You keep talking about all these amazing facts you have, but then tell folks "you disprove me??" when questioned. The fact of the matter is you have no facts, it is all just a bunch of filtered crap your brain has perceived as being truthful. The reality is, you sit at home way too much, and get in the woods way too little.

MG

I'm new to this forum, but it seems like there's some contraversy surrounding killing does and fawns. Some of the best hunts I've been on have been doe/fawn hunts. Not only are you able to put some meat in the freezer, you're doing your part for wildlife management. With the recent drought and abysmal winter range conditions, it seems to me that G&F should raise the number of doe/fawn tags and aim for smaller, healthier populations. That's my 2 cents.

Just scanned this thread quickly...

RMK said "in the case of adult females you're killing with one shot as many as 10 or 12 animals."

Hilarious. When God was passing out brains, he thought they said trains.. and quickly snagged the cute red one.

Outstanding,queerhorn has joined in also. I figured you'd have responded sooner.

gutz -

you're new here, so i will warn you now.....don't EVER try to inject logic into a conversation!

I have "RMK" turned off, so I never see what he writes. I'm sure in most cases, that's a blessing.



BUT...in this case, though I hate to admit it, he is partially right when it comes to the *long-term* effects of shooting one doe, especially under good habitat conditions. OTOH, if population reduction or stabilization is the objective, that's exactly the way to accomplish it.



And just because there are fewer deer in any given area, doesn't mean there shouldn't be less. Again, the condition of the HABITAT and its ability to support a specific number of deer is the key. There might be ## square miles that can handle 10,000 deer when habitat conditions are excellent but less than half that number when the conditions are poor. -TONY

RMK! This guy is a real poet! Like I said before mule deer in the west compared to large populations of whitetail in the east isn't even a fair comparsion. Of course you need to shoot whitetail does to try to keep numbers donw, but out here when numbers are low from drought and over hunting, a year or two with out doe/fawn tags would help the population. But then again the G&F would have to figure out another means of revenue.

Regular shithouse poet alright,just sit back and learn.