I want to start this post by saying that I have never been to africa or Alaska. I hope to do both in the next coupple of years. So I'm not a expert I just have a lot of questions. The purpose of this post is to get info about a light weight rifle that has a good punch. I was primarly thinking of a fast handling alaska rifle for relatively short range work. I have been considering a FN mauser action in 375 Taylor(375/338).
I don't own a 375 H&H but I have shot some. They seam to be on the heavy side for this old man to carry on the tundra and in the brush all day.
Also for the past 30yr I have been using a rem 600 in 308 win w/ a Mc Millian stock and a leupold II 1X4, for whitetail in the Atchafalaya Basin. Shots are seldome over 100 yds, are often at moving targets. I'am verey comfortable with this rifle, and it gets the job done verey well.
So with that said I was thinking a rifle of simaliar handling caristics but in a round sutible for BB and other large NA game.
I have a win 70 in 416 ren. that I love I just don't want haul it around every day for a week or two. Most 375 H&H's I have seen offer no advantage in weight or handiness over my 416.
So thats why I'm considering a 06 length action, with a short efficent round and a short barrel. I think the more efficent round will lose less velocity than the 375 H&H in a short barrel. Also I have never heard of anyone having a problem with a 338 feeding, it seams like a 375/338 would only feed better.
Thanks for all the Help
Dr B

DR B,

I am a big fan of correctly head stamped brass and in most cases prefer easily obtained rounds.

I don't thin that many .375 H&H's need to be as heavy as they are bought in factory format, and may be you could choose to have your rifle turned in to a .375 H&H but just ensure it's built to the weight you require.

Actually to be honest just buy a win m70 .338 to go with your .416 and you will have a fantastic pair of rifles.

Most feeding problems are mechanical in nature. In other words, rifles almost always develop feeding problems not because of the cartridge they're chambered for, but rather due to some aspect of the feeding system that's incorrectly put together; the feed ramp is at an improper angle, the magazine and follower are of improper dimensions to provide the correct stack angle for the cartridges, the gap of the extractor is incorrectly set, the feed rails are improperly modified, etc., etc.....

With that said, I have NEVER experienced feeding problems from any belted magnum cartridge, IF the rifle is properly put together to begin with, no matter if the cartridge is a 7mm Rem. Mag. or 375 H&H.

Going with some wierd wildcat as a way of heading off and getting around pre-assumed feeding problems has a lot in common with a dog chasing his tail -- it's sort of blind, inane effort at best.

I have belted magnum rifles ranging from 300 Win. Mag. to 416 Rem. Mag., and including the 338 Win. Mag. and 375 H&H. All of them feed very well indeed, and the 338 does indeed feed just as well as the 375 H&H. They feed well because the rifles themselves are set up properly, as is the ammunition, and there's nothing more to it than that.

For your purposes, a 338 Win. Mag. is an infinately better choice that the 375 Taylor, and if you can't handle all of the world's big game in a walk with a 338 Win. -- save elephant, rhino, and buffalo -- your're not going to handle it with anything else.......

AD

I live in B.C. and use my .338 for most of my hunting, my .375 weighs 7 3/4 lbs. with 1.5x5 on board, has 21" brl. Its extremely accurate and does 2600 with 300 Noslers. Can't see much need for the Taylor.

I agree with PC, if you are going to go the custom route, you may as well build a trim 375 HH. If you choose a M700 or an M70, they will fit a HH just as well as a 338 length anyways, and without the hassle/expense of custom dies and the risk of having no ammo available. If you want a 98 style, then Whitworth, Mark X, or Browning actions are around that are ready to handle 375 HH.

The 338 mag case is roughly the same capacity as a 375 HH case, so there would be little or no difference in performance in relation to barrel length. Certainly less than barrel-to-barrel differences that always exist.

In my experience a 375 HH does fine with a 22 or even 21 inch barrel

I agree with Dr.B, if thats what you want then by golly thats what you should have and I believe you are correct in that the 375 taylor is somewhat better for heaver game. Big plus is the 375 bullets that are available over what is offered in 338. I hope to build a 375 taylor in the near future as a deer stopper. Lots of luck, I think you're on the right track. bill439

PC and Free Miner took the words out of my mouth. Lou

Well, MTM and Free-Miner are good friends of mine and I have shot and hunted with them. I agree in some respects, but, overall, I tend to think like Allen and much prefer a .338 and use mine more than anything else.

Free Miner is just finishing a lovely .375 on a P-64 I sold him, metal by Bill Leeper of course, and this will be a perfect working/hunting rifle anywhere. Maybe I am getting old, but, I find a .338 much easier to shoot well than any .375 and I have zero use for wildcats.

I have no problems w/ wildcat rounds but if you are building a rifle from the ground up, it's no problem to just build a trim, light .375h&h. Ammo is avaiable almost everywhere you need such a rifle.

The reality is a 375 H&H uses the same action as the 375 Taylor. In an M70, the only difference is the ejection port is cut out longer, the magazine block removed and the bolt stop is shorter... all that actually adds up in favor of the H&H version in terms of weight savings.

If I wanted a light 375 I'd build it on an M70 Magum action and put a med-light 21 or 22" barrel on it that mic's .625 to .650" at the muzzle.

Personally I can't fathom being a travelling hunter that relies on a wildcat cartridge. It's one thing to use these homegrown rounds on local turf, it's another to use them in a place like Namibia or the North West Territories on an expensive hunt.

OK, let's look at the other side. No arguement from me for those who prefer the factory rounds, but I'll say it just one time, there ain't any flies on the .375 Taylor other than there is no factory ammo available.
Mine will duplicate anything that the old .375 H&H will do, and weighs a lot less than my Ruger #1 in .375 H&H. (7.5 pounds vs 9.5 pounds for the H&H)
The rifle is on a tang safety Ruger M77, 22" Douglas barrel, seating in a Ramline stock. It ain't pretty, but is hell for stout. Accuracy with 270 and 300 gr. bullets is quite good, usually staying within one inch. I never figured out the SD on it, but 300 gr. bullet loads have a 6FPS ES and the 270 gr. bullet a 12 FPS ES. I would not hesitate to tangle with most of anything on the planet with mine. The basic action came from a rifle that was a .338 mag. to begin with, Didn't have to mess with ther feed rails or anything else.

On the more practical side however, rather than the Taylor, I believe if I was doing it all over agin, I'd just keep it simple and go with the .338 Win. mag.

If you are anywhere near Tucson, you would be welcome to try mine out.
Paul B.

Paul, I really like the Taylor rounds. Heck, I'd rather have a 375 Taylor than the 375 H&H and a 416 Taylor over the Rem version. My only point is about availability world wide... just not a wise move IMO.

BTW, I had an M70 338 WM that wouldn't feed correctly. The belt cutout (at the chamber) was cut so sharp that the case mouth's would hang up on it if fed slowly... I got rid of the rifle.

Actually the .375 Taylor is a very fine round. Douglas and Shilen make some light weight barrels in .375 cal and attached to the .338 action they make relatively light rifles.

That said you can make the same weight gun in the .375 H&H as well....just open the action.

No matter how one cuts the pie the .375 H&H is always the better option.

If you go with the Taylor version however it will be a very powerful and long range gun for most anything on the planet. It's toe to heel with the old H&H in performance.

The .376 Steyr fits the bill perfectly. Out of a 19" barrel, it delivers velocity within 200 fps of a 24" 375 H&H.

quote:

Originally posted by Dr B:
I want to start this post by saying that I have never been to africa or Alaska. I hope to do both in the next coupple of years. So I'm not a expert I just have a lot of questions. The purpose of this post is to get info about a light weight rifle that has a good punch. I was primarly thinking of a fast handling alaska rifle for relatively short range work. I have been considering a FN mauser action in 375 Taylor(375/338).
I don't own a 375 H&H but I have shot some. They seam to be on the heavy side for this old man to carry on the tundra and in the brush all day.
Also for the past 30yr I have been using a rem 600 in 308 win w/ a Mc Millian stock and a leupold II 1X4, for whitetail in the Atchafalaya Basin. Shots are seldome over 100 yds, are often at moving targets. I'am verey comfortable with this rifle, and it gets the job done verey well.
So with that said I was thinking a rifle of simaliar handling caristics but in a round sutible for BB and other large NA game.
I have a win 70 in 416 ren. that I love I just don't want haul it around every day for a week or two. Most 375 H&H's I have seen offer no advantage in weight or handiness over my 416.
So thats why I'm considering a 06 length action, with a short efficent round and a short barrel. I think the more efficent round will lose less velocity than the 375 H&H in a short barrel. Also I have never heard of anyone having a problem with a 338 feeding, it seams like a 375/338 would only feed better.
Thanks for all the Help
Dr B

What is your definition of light weight? If you can handle the recoil, I would buy a Colt Light Rifle in 300 Win Mag or 7 Rem Mag and rebarrel to either 338 Win Mag, 358 Norma Mag or if you want a Wildcat, 375 or 416 Taylor. You get two down (bad) but 5-1/4 pounds (good). I put one of Mel Forbes ULA drop-in stocks on my 300 Win and it made it a completely better gun to shoot. Something about his stock design makes it a recoil sponge.

Colt LR: $400
Forbes stock: $450
New barrel: $400

$1250 gets you a bullet proof stomper you can carry all day on a BAD day.

if you want a light quick action rifle and an easy conversion get a browning blr 300 win mag rebarrel to 375 and you have a taylor equal in the 375-300 win mag wildcat for a little more smithing you can make it a 375 taylor

This is probably diverging a bit, but here goes. I'm in the process of establishing a battery of rifles that I hope to use over the next 10 to 15 years...... plus. I currently own a 7MM Rem Mag built around a LH Model 70 action that has some really neat features and accessories. However, at 9.5 lbs it's really a bit heavy for the hunting that I do.

So have decided, after lucking onto a LH stainless model 70 I've been hunting for years, to convert the 7MM into a 338 by adding a new stainless tube. I'll cut the barrel to 21 or 22" and replace the fiberglass stock from McMillan with one built around edge technology and have an 8.5lb "handy rifle". The new action will be cobbled into an 8lb field ready 30-06 and the two of them ought to just about do it anywhere on this continent. As Brad, Allen, Kutenay........have eluded to Wildcats make little sense in a serious using rifle that will travel farther than the back yard, and the 338, in my neck of the woods is a heck of a lot easier to find qualit components for.

Adding to this list however is the need for something legally viable in Africa. I have plans to make it there someday and might could want to hunt buffalo. With that being said, I could leave the buffalo out of the equation and forego the 375 entirely.

With those two rifles (one can cover for the other in just about any situation here) I'd be set. And I'll sooth my rifle hankerings by playing around and putting togethor rifles for coyotes and wood Chucks.

Chuck

The .375 Taylor is an outstanding wildcat, and a few are used by Alaska hunters. However, the .338WM may well be the most popular cartridge with Alaskans, right up there with the .30-06.

I believe that you are on the right track, except that it does not have to be a true custom rifle. What I would do is to take a known-reliable stainless steel .338WM rifle, send it to Pac-Nor, or E.R. Shaw, and get them to install/fit a stainless .375 Taylor barrel.

No modifications to the action will be needed, since it will be using the same .338WM cases. You will have to replace the stock, or at least modify an existing stock to accept a .375 contour of your liking.

There is reloading data at the .416 Taylor page. Just click on "Reloading Data" and look for the .375 Taylor there.
http://www.geocities.com/bw_99835/

Chuck, those sound like great ideas for building a rifle battery. I'd probably have the barrel length the same for both rifles, say 22-23" and just drop the contour on the .338 to lose the weight of the 1-2" that you would have got rid of if it were at 21". I personally prefer an extra 1-2" for steadier off-hand use and more efficient powder burn. Then again, my 20" barreled .308 BLR didn't let me down on 200yard off-hand shooting on Caribou.

You could always add on a 375 or 416 later in the game. The only thing that I would miss is not having a long range thumper, say a 300 win. mag. on a 25" #3 contour barrel

CL, I know where you can get a 300 WBY with a 30" barrel built around a LH stainless Model 70 action no less.

Chuck

It may be 32" - you know, something really practical for those long hikes up the mountain. Besides, it'll start off with 1 foot greater MPBR

I prefer the 358 Norma Magnum myself, loaded with 280 grain Swift you can expect 2590 f/s from a 24†barrel. It will perform well on brown bear and moose. It has and edge over 338 and is very close to the 375. It’s perfect for a light setup on a mauser action.

Regards
Svehella

Dr B, after re-reading your post, since your primary rifle is a 600 with a McM stock and a 1-4x Leupold, why not consider a Remington 673 in 350 magnum (or an original 600 mag if you can find one, or a 700 classic), and set it up with the same scope, stock and barrel length as your 308.

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/model_673.asp

The 350 mag will fill the gap between your 308 and 416, and would be as handy as the 308 as well as being familiar in handling and function.

A 350 mag handloaded in a short barrel will shoot a 225 partition at similar velocities as a 338 Win Mag will shoot a 250.

I agree that the .358 Norma is a very fine cartridge and would love to own an original Husqvarna or Dumoulin in that chambering. I know of two rather experienced guys here in B.C. who use it while hunting in Grizzly country.

This is in actual, roadless wilderness in a jurisdiction that has about 20,000 Grizzlies at present, so many hunters prefer this type of cartridge to a .'06 or .300 mag. However, I do not see where it is superior to the .338 Win. as one can load 275 Swifts to about the same velocity as the 280 Swifts in the .358 Norma; thus, since the diameter advantage of the Norma is cancelled by the greater S.D. of the Winchester, I consider them essentially equal.

I also do not see how the .375H&H is superior, on North American game, to either of these. I have owned six .375s and 12 338s and I just do not get the superiority of the H&H over the Win. As I think Free-Miner and MTM will both substantiate, I do have a fair bit of realtime wilderess work and hunting experience and I think that any difference in these is largely one of personal preference, as is the case with the .375 Taylor.

I would go with what you like best, with heavy for caliber, premium bullets and never worry about the largely imaginary differences. I certainly think that any of these four rounds, plus the 9.3x64 Brenneke, are much superior to any .300 mag., .30-06 or "Big Seven" in actual wilderness use. But, one has to be able to shoot straight to realize this advantage and recoil is something to consider, as well.

I just read Free-Miner's post and that is an excellent suggestion from a guy who has spent his share of time in some of the most wild, Grizzly dense parts of northern Canada. The .350 Rem. at closer ranges is an outstanding choice, IMO.

It's too bad we can't get more punch without more recoil or more rifle weight, but that's physics.

The 338 and the 375 will do what you want, just don't build the rifle too light. (See the thread on Medium Bores called "Project Too Successful," about a guy having second thoughts on his 7.5# 338 WM. It's good food for thought.) The 35 Whelen and the 9.3x62 will work, and may be somewhat better for a lighter rifle on a standard action. But 35 Whelen ammo is scarce in Africa and I suspect 9.3x62 is pretty scarce in Alaska.

Also, I wouldn't worry too much about lost velocity. You'll lose some, but it's more a function of the individual barrel than the cartridge.


Okie John

If you decide to go with a 375 H&H, look at the Whitworth. It's already pretty trim, but mine's in the shop for final details. It started off magnaported, which I found unnecessary and excessively loud. I chopped the barrel to 22" to remove, now I'm having the stock shortened by an inch or so and adding a real ebony forend tip. When it's finished it will be very trim. Composite stocks are available, but I lucked into a very nice original stock. I have loads that duplicate the 375 Winchester for deer, plains game loads (260 accubonds I used in Namibia) that are flat shooting, and 300 grains for the heavies. I'll post pictures when it's back from the shop. Bob

I built an non-belted version of the 375 Taylor on a standard Mauser action.

The parent case for mine is the 9.3X64 Brenneke, necked up to 375. Internal capacity is almost identical.

If you handload, don't worry about it being a wildcat.
If you're in the Alaska bush when you lose your ammo, you're just as likely to find spare 375 Taylor ammo as anything else (which is slim to none).

The advantage over a 338 Win Mag is a bigger hole and heavier bullet.
The advantage over a 375 H&H is a smaller case, with identical (factory) balistics.

I've hunted with a wildcat in Africa...the stuff you hear about ammo headstamps and rifles matching up is BS...many "inspectors" can't read in any case, and in the other case I haven't had a paper work problem in any third world country that US currency didn't fix.

Life is short, shoot what you want.

Garrett

Real hard to beat the 9.3 x 64. Didn't think of that, my bad!

You can usually get one contour lighter than .375 in a custom barrel. Only issue is the ammo is as scarce as the 358 Norma but that only applies if you don't handload. Second option might be 376 Steyr but we are going down in energy, not up.

I would get a 9.3X62. I have handled and fired a couple of them and the similar .375 Whelan Impr. and the rifles are lighter than a 375 HH and the recoil is reasonable.

The 338 WM group has a mean recoil velocity level. Detached retina is spelled all over a lightweight 338 for us old timers.

I picked up a new M-70 .375 H&H in their safari rifle...it's 9.3 pounds IIRC and I didn't like it at all. Way way way way too heavy.

Now some may like it that way......NOT ME!!!!!

...Detached retina...????? I don't think that ANY .338 load in a reasonably light rifle, my Dakota 76 Classic weighs 8.5 lbs., is going to cause ANY physical damage to anyone. I have a gorgeous Oberndorf sporter in 9.3x62, made in 1927, by Wm. Oschatz of Potsdam, it weighs about the same as my Dakota and the recoil is the same as well. My Merkel drilling in 9.3x74R also has about the same felt recoil and I certainly do not find this particularly difficult to handle.

Of course, it requires regular practice to shoot well with medium bore rifles and is less pleasant than with smaller bores, but, a .338 is not that ferocious. I once shot a hot-loaded .378 Roy, now, that is a horrible kicker, worse than any double rifle I have ever shot or even 12 ga. Brennekes out of my drilling or Benelli Nova, it was just brutal.

Well here's my "lightweight" & short barreled 375 Taylor:



Here's the front sight - no hood for me:



It's a post-64 Winchester with a 21" barrel. I have a Williams peep sight and a Williams "Firesight" red optical front bead. It's a very handy Alaskan brush rifle for sure. I tried a Leupy 2.5 compact on it for a while. The problem here was I needed extension rings. Then I couldn't find scope covers that worked.

I went back to irons. I like this for a couple of reasons: (1) 1-handed carry w/ hand grasping over the receiver. A good balance point; (2) never had iron sights fog up - EVER!!!

She's quite the beast with 300 gr Partitions at 2,550-2,600 fps. Don't normally go more than 10 rounds at a time from the bench.

Never shot a bear, yet. Mostly just for protection while deer hunting. Nice to have when you see these though:



"Walk softly and carry a BIG stick"

MM

Dr B after rereading your post I thought I should add a bit to my slightly hastey reply. I think the key here is your FN action. If you want to stick with it the Taylor may well be the way to go. I have seen several Mausers onpened up to 375 lenght and have never seen a problem. That said a lot of people would cringe at the thought of doing this to a nice one. I can certainly see their point. As far as wildcats, I've had a bunch and never been disapointed yet.